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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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You don't compare Dragonite to Altaria because Altaria is outclassed by Dragonite in almost every way, like Mantine is by Gyarados.
Edit: For some reason I thought you were trying to argue that Mantine fulfills some niche which Gyarados can't. I completely agree that Mantine should not be ranked.
Edit 2: Your next post confused me even more. I need some time to figure out where you stand on this.
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Honestly I am all for people discussing what they think should or should not be S rank, but you cannot simply post "this pokemon has 3 different sets and look at my calcs" and expect your argument to be taken seriously. You need some more meat to your argument and provide some solid points as well as some supporters. As far as the Mega Mawile discussion goes I do not see a problem one way or the other. My decision will be made solely based upon how well each of the two sides presents their argument and how solid their points are.
This is true, but we really should be comparing him to other mons. You said it best:
People are comparing it to Gyarados because they're complaining about how fast Mantine moved up to C-, when at best it's D-rank.
Mantine is different from Gyarados because it has Tailwind, Defog, and makes actual use of Scald. Altaria has Defog, Sing, Perish Song, Heal Bell, and Natural Cure for niche moments over Dragonite. Mantine is a special wall, and Gyarados is a Dragon Dancer. Altaria is a special wall, and Dragonite is a bulky physical attacker. I'm not trying to say that Altaria has any competitive worth, but I'm saying that people are comparing two Pokemon almost purely on typing, and that doesn't seem right to me.
I ahve one proposal. Seeing that deniss team (1st in the ladder) uses a Vaporeon as a BP receiver alongisde Clefable, and the fact that Vaporeon has a niche in Baton pass teams, alongside being a relatively good Bulky Water, and having a bit of offensive presence of Scald.
I nominate Vaporeon for C- rank.
For this I was doing comparison with other Bulky Waters, and I found this:
there are 26 Water-types in the Viability list. I compared his roles and Vaporeon's role and I found these results:
-Not Bulky Waters at all. Vaporeon is not comparable to anyone on this list:
Greninja, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, Omastar, Gorebyss, Cloyster.
-Bulky Water who play differently comapred to vaporeon. Maybe because hige changes in typing, movepool or for playing mainly offensively or not being a typical "Bulky Water".
Azumarill, (Mega) Gyarados, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Manaphy, Politoed, Kingdra, Starmie, Mega Blastoise, Empoleon.
-bulky Waters, who unlike Vaporeon, have next to zero offensive presence, and in many cases, don'0t fit outside stall.
Quagsire, Alomomola, Mantine.
-And finally, the Bulky Warters, whose role are fully comparable to Vaporeon's role.
Slowbro, Suicune, Gastrodon, Slowking.
I think that Vaporeon is C- for two niches that no other Bulky Water does.
-Baton Pass (Gorebyss plays very differently in that regard) and the ability to be a great receiver thanks to getting (like all of his family) Stored Power, and the ability to make huge Wishes and (unlike Alomomola) having a "powerful Scald".
I don't think it's any higher because his high competition (Specially Slowbro and Suicune), not being comparable to a Pokemon in C+ and above, and because his viability is more a niche.
I nominate Vaporeon for C- rank.
For this I was doing comparison with other Bulky Waters, and I found this:
there are 26 Water-types in the Viability list. I compared his roles and Vaporeon's role and I found these results:
-Not Bulky Waters at all. Vaporeon is not comparable to anyone on this list:
Greninja, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, Omastar, Gorebyss, Cloyster.
-Bulky Water who play differently comapred to vaporeon. Maybe because hige changes in typing, movepool or for playing mainly offensively or not being a typical "Bulky Water".
Azumarill, (Mega) Gyarados, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Manaphy, Politoed, Kingdra, Starmie, Mega Blastoise, Empoleon.
-bulky Waters, who unlike Vaporeon, have next to zero offensive presence, and in many cases, don'0t fit outside stall.
Quagsire, Alomomola, Mantine.
-And finally, the Bulky Warters, whose role are fully comparable to Vaporeon's role.
Slowbro, Suicune, Gastrodon, Slowking.
I think that Vaporeon is C- for two niches that no other Bulky Water does.
-Baton Pass (Gorebyss plays very differently in that regard) and the ability to be a great receiver thanks to getting (like all of his family) Stored Power, and the ability to make huge Wishes and (unlike Alomomola) having a "powerful Scald".
I don't think it's any higher because his high competition (Specially Slowbro and Suicune), not being comparable to a Pokemon in C+ and above, and because his viability is more a niche.
That comparison falls victim to the same problem of the Mantine vs. Gyarados one: One Pokemon is Offensive, the other is Stall/Support based (no one would use Altaria as a DD when it can be outdone by NFE Pokemon). Mantine does handle Scald better than Gyarados, both taking it AND using it, which is a pretty big reason Gyarados can't replace Mantine on stall (whether or not Mantine is a better Pokemon on the whole).
Mantine, because of Water Absorb, punishes Scald spam because he's immune AND receives healing. Gyarados, while he resists, still takes damage, plus potential SR (which Mantine would heal off from Water Absorb), not to mention Gyarados could still be crippled by the burn. So as opposed to extremely slow wear down, Mantine BENEFITS from switching into water moves. I repeat my point that Mantine IS NOT more viable than Gyarados in OU, but Mantine does have a legitimate niche advantage over Gyarados beyond Stealth Rock.
As far as Mega Mawile, I lean more towards keeping it A+. Discounting the Deoxys forms for different roles, Mega Mawile's biggest issue to me is that it NEEDS to set-up before it can perform it's role to the fullest. Almost every other Pokemon in S-Rank presents a veritable threat or can get straight to its role the moment it enters the field (be it a free-switch or otherwise).
- Thundurus-I threatens Prankster T-Wave, and it's offenses also pressure frailer/neutral targets, which limits what can come i without being severely crippled
- Landorus-I doesn't always run CM, because Sheer Force + Life Orb allows it to go straight to work as a Special Attacker/Wall breaker
- Outside of (LOL) Stance-Dance and plain SD, Aegislash in Shield Form is immediately set to perform whatever role it's going for (Crumbler, SubToxic, All-Out Attacker).
- Charizard-X has amazing coverage with its STABs alone, presenting an offensive threat while going about its job as a Bulky-WoW user or boosting itself with DD. Unlike most Physical offense, he can't be stopped by a burn, which further limits immediate 1st turn answers to it.
Mega Mawile, while EXTREMELY powerful, REALLY wants the Sub to ensure it's protected from neutering Burns or annoying Paralysis (though Toxic immunity is certainly nice), or boosting itself to make sure it can muscle past every wall. The longer Mawile takes to set-up, the more turns the opponent has to get into the Check/Counter. Sucker Punch, while certainly powerful coming off that kind of Attack, can't deal with faster Status, which means it can't alleviate Mawile's susceptibility to Will-o-Wisp, on top of granting free-turns to the opponent to set-up themselves or hazards if you mispredict, whereas, say, Azumarill can still leave a mark if the opponent were to try and set up on its Aqua Jet.
Mega-Mawile's offensive power makes it a monster to face for Stall, as well as other play styles, but I feel like needing that one-turn to be ABSOLUTELY safe from the easiest method of checking it is what holds it back, considering everything else in S-Rank can immediately get to work if it has to.
We didn't just compare Mantine and Gyarados because they have the same defensive typing. Gyarados has almost as much special bulk as Mantine, and a lot more physical bulk thanks to Intimidate. Tailwind isn't a very good move and Mantine is not a very good user of it. As others have pointed out, it is better to have something else do the hazard clearing. The main reason Gyarados isn't used as a special wall is because it has better things to do like Dragon Dancing. I don't want to talk much more about Altaria vs. Dragonite much more but it is kind of the same thing. Dragonite has better Base Stats across the board than Altaria and can learn Heal Bell and Defog. The reason it isn't used as a utility special wall is because it has to give up Multiscale for those moves and it also is better off using Dragon Dance or a Choice Band or using CBBnite than doing Defog + Heal Bell.
Edit: Btw, Specs Keldeo 2HKOs 252HP / 4 Def Mantine after SR with Secret Sword.
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Tailwind is pointless on stall, and defensive Gyarados can make use of Scald in the same way that Alomomola can, it's used for its burn chance not its damage output. It's not a good Defogger either because it loses a huge chunk of health from Stealth Rock and has no reliable way to get it back. Gyarados is completely viable as a defensive Pokémon so it is comparable.
If we're praising Mantine because it walls Keldeo, Charizard Y and Landorus while also being able to Defog, then I'm struggling to see why Latias wouldn't be the better option in the vast majority of cases.
Okay, I see people comparing Mega Mawile to Bisharp, and I'd just like to point out that there is one major difference between them:
LO Bisharp: 498 Atk
Mega Mawile: 678 Atk
Aside from that, Mawile is also better deffensively, sporting better bulk and better typing. It doesn't have to fear fighting attacks like Bisharp does, and it isn't destroyed by any special attack like Bisharp is.
I feel like the only reasons Bisharp isn't automatically put into the "outclassed" bin is Defiant, and not being a mega evolution. There's also the speed, but both are pretty slow and have priority, so it's not a big deal. No one uses Bisharp for being fast.
So Mawile feels like Bisharp on steroids, most of the time.
Here, that's a comparison for you. I'm not sure if Mawile is good enough to be S, but it's certainly better than almost everything in A+.
LO Bisharp: 498 Atk
Mega Mawile: 678 Atk
Aside from that, Mawile is also better deffensively, sporting better bulk and better typing. It doesn't have to fear fighting attacks like Bisharp does, and it isn't destroyed by any special attack like Bisharp is.
I feel like the only reasons Bisharp isn't automatically put into the "outclassed" bin is Defiant, and not being a mega evolution. There's also the speed, but both are pretty slow and have priority, so it's not a big deal. No one uses Bisharp for being fast.
So Mawile feels like Bisharp on steroids, most of the time.
Here, that's a comparison for you. I'm not sure if Mawile is good enough to be S, but it's certainly better than almost everything in A+.
Bisharp gets STAB on Sucker Punch and Knock Off which is a big deal.
Having never even considered mantine on an OU team, im just gonna throw in my opinion on mega mawile. This is a really hard decision for me, because I feel as though mega mawile is definitely stronger than a good amount of the pokes in A+ right now, but slightly less effective than the pokemon in S rank. Im far more scared when i see a mawile in team preview than a bisharp, ttar, greninja, and other mons in A+. However, I feel its hard to compare it to some of the pokemon in S-rank. I see him as being most similar to landorus as a wall breaker and completely butt fucking stall. Unlike landorus however, I would argue that mawile has an easier time switching in given intimidate and his amazing typing in steel and fairy. He can come in on common pokemon in A rank such as terrakion locked into anything but earthquake, lati@s, and tyranitar. He can even come in on azumarill given the right circumstances And for those who say mega mawile isnt effective vs. offense, offense has 0 switch ins to m-mawile, as well as having a tool against revenge killing in sucker punch. However, i think m-mawile's best attribute is that he chooses who can check/counter him based on his moveset. In other words, mega mawile will never have one consistent counter. The substitute set is a terror for all team archetypes, as nothing is beating mawile 1v1 when he is behind a sub, while the swords dance set makes stall cry. Im not one for walls of calcs but I think these demonstrate that even things that are supposed to "counter" mega mawile dont always do the best job of doing so, even when he is supposedly running the wrong moveset:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 190-224 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 159-188 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are resisted, by two of the best walls in the metagame. Of course, these two switch in as he sets up an SD, but all skarm can do is phaze him while mega-venu cant ohko with hp fire or earthquake, and will die in the process of leech seeding mega mawile, mega venu does win if he runs sleep powder, but that is rather uncommon. I think mawile is similar to Charizard-X in that often times the best way to deal with him is to sacrifice something in order to force him out, but then guess what, there is nothing stopping mawile from switching out and just repeating his onslaught. In short, there is nothing that 100% stops mega mawile, much like mega charizard-X, and therefore i say Mega-Mawile for S.
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 190-224 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 159-188 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are resisted, by two of the best walls in the metagame. Of course, these two switch in as he sets up an SD, but all skarm can do is phaze him while mega-venu cant ohko with hp fire or earthquake, and will die in the process of leech seeding mega mawile, mega venu does win if he runs sleep powder, but that is rather uncommon. I think mawile is similar to Charizard-X in that often times the best way to deal with him is to sacrifice something in order to force him out, but then guess what, there is nothing stopping mawile from switching out and just repeating his onslaught. In short, there is nothing that 100% stops mega mawile, much like mega charizard-X, and therefore i say Mega-Mawile for S.
In considering Mega Aggron's move to B-, which I support, I'd like people to consider some set diversity that's often ignored. I usually run an offensive set that goes something like this:
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam/Iron Head
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
This set has a few advantages to make it viable:
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam/Iron Head
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
This set has a few advantages to make it viable:
- Your setup is hard to predict since most people expect the tank/support set.
- It takes advantage of unevolved Aggron's Ability and STAB with Head Smash. A key to using this set is NOT mega evolving until you have to, allowing regular Aggron to spam Head Smash until your opponent sends out an answer. This can also confuse your opponent into thinking you are not holding Aggronite especially if you have another Pokemon capable of mega evolving on your team.
- Mega Aggron's immense natural bulk allows it to tank hits after setting up, allowing it to 2 or even 3HKO threats that it now outspeeds and are incapable of taking it out quickly. This is its major niche over more typical set up sweepers. While Aggron has less power, it has more natural staying power than most. By way of demonstration: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 204-243 (72.5 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Looking at the top of the viability list it should be clear that a fast Aggron can power through a huge chunk of its threats and will find ample opportunity to set up a polish. This means that in regular conditions you can use Aggron to force out a Pokemon that your opponent has to sacrifice to bring it down, blasting a hole in their team, or do some late game sweeping when the Pokemon that could stop it in combination are already removed and your opponent has nothing that can hit hard enough or take a hit.
- Weaker than typical set up sweepers.
- The advantage of Head Smash mentioned above is a double-edged sword since after mega evolving it compromises Aggron's main niche: survivability.
- The ubiquitous "it takes up my mega slot" problem, which means that you can't double it with the best set up sweepers in the tier.
Not much.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 530-627 (175.4 - 207.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 480-566 (158.9 - 187.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Damage ratio: 480/530 = 90%
Let me put that into perspective again:
LO Bisharp: 498 Atk
Mega Mawile: 678 Atk
That's a pokemon for which puny concepts like "STAB" lose any meaning.
Though I just remembered Bisharp is also a Pursuit Trapper. So yeah, that's cool. Still, I think if Mega Mawile wasn't a mega, people would look to those niches (Pursuit trapping and Defog blocking) at one side, then look at the brutal Atk on the other side, and pick the fairy without thinking twice. Mega Mawile doesn't need niches to justify her presence in a team. Mega Mawile just brute forces deffensive and offensive cores into submission.
(I seriously wonder what GF was smoking when they decided giving Huge Power to something with a base attack over 100 was a good idea)
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Mawile has other flaw: when switch-in into it the first time, it'0s a Mawile, and has paper Special Defense.
I think that no-one should be put on S rank before the Deoxys formes suspect ends.
About Mantine: Stall has a lot of options for a Defogger, the tier is not sort of defoggers, and Gyarados has almost the same bulk whule having way more physicall bulk.
And if you rely on RestTalk, i think that Mega Gyarados is better at that.
Note: A Mega Pokemon is design to not have any item. If Mega were allowed to have a item, the majority of them would be auto-Ubers. Imagine MTyranitar with Smooth Rock, MCharizard X with Life Orb, a lot of the Megas with leftovers, MCharizard with Heat Rock, Assaul Vesxt Mega Ampharos,
I think that no-one should be put on S rank before the Deoxys formes suspect ends.
About Mantine: Stall has a lot of options for a Defogger, the tier is not sort of defoggers, and Gyarados has almost the same bulk whule having way more physicall bulk.
And if you rely on RestTalk, i think that Mega Gyarados is better at that.
Note: A Mega Pokemon is design to not have any item. If Mega were allowed to have a item, the majority of them would be auto-Ubers. Imagine MTyranitar with Smooth Rock, MCharizard X with Life Orb, a lot of the Megas with leftovers, MCharizard with Heat Rock, Assaul Vesxt Mega Ampharos,
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I know I will get a lot of flack from the next argument, but I still do not agree with the current choice.
Also, I've read through all these arguments about M-Mawile and right now I'm torn, I used to believe it was solidly A+, but now I'm swaying towards S.Let's make a Mega Mawile tier between A+ and S.
- Landorus: S Rank –––> A+ Rank
Landorus is not exactly low risk high reward, it has to run certain moves to beat certain Pokemon. It's incredibly easy to revenge-kill, with moves like Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Scizor's Bullet Punch dismissing it. Landorus' bulk is far from amazing, as well. It has severe four moveslot syndrome, often running always Earth Power and Focus Blast. The norm from there is Psychic. But, after that, it has to decide which move it wants to run. With Sludge Wave it can beat Fairies that can take its hits, it can run Knock Off to get past Chansey, or it can run Stealth Rock for support and the natural switches it causes. And it can run two offensive boosting moves: Calm Mind and Rock Polish. But, the latter lacks power and the former leaves Landorus even harder to stop. Landorus is amazing at what it does, but I just don't see it on the levels of amazing Pokemon like Aegislash and Deoxys-S, but more so with the likes of fantastic Pokemon like Keldeo and Garchomp. To sum it up, Landorus is incredibly powerful, hard to switch into, and versatile, but it has issues in bulk and its typing isn't that great; its Speed is also not super amazing. Please do not dismiss this argument and think I'm insane / out of mind, I actually do think this change should happen, and thus I present my argument for it.
Also, I've read through all these arguments about M-Mawile and right now I'm torn, I used to believe it was solidly A+, but now I'm swaying towards S.
Dude, Landorus is WAYYYY to good to even consider moving down. Also, the only priority in the game that OHKOes unboosted is crawdaunt AJ, which is an impressive feat for how frail you make it out to be. Also, if you know what stall is, you would know to keep this fucker in S. its way too good to consider dropping.I know I will get a lot of flack from the next argument, but I still do not agree with the current choice.
Now I know many people would disagree with this change, but please, hear me out instead of instantly dismissing my opinion. Landorus is very powerful and versatile, it is extremely hard to switch directly into and has to have its set figured out beforehand. However, Landorus just does not fit the description of S Rank in my opinion:
Landorus is not exactly low risk high reward, it has to run certain moves to beat certain Pokemon. It's incredibly easy to revenge-kill, with moves like Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Scizor's Bullet Punch dismissing it. Landorus' bulk is far from amazing, as well. It has severe four moveslot syndrome, often running always Earth Power and Focus Blast. The norm from there is Psychic. But, after that, it has to decide which move it wants to run. With Sludge Wave it can beat Fairies that can take its hits, it can run Knock Off to get past Chansey, or it can run Stealth Rock for support and the natural switches it causes. And it can run two offensive boosting moves: Calm Mind and Rock Polish. But, the latter lacks power and the former leaves Landorus even harder to stop. Landorus is amazing at what it does, but I just don't see it on the levels of amazing Pokemon like Aegislash and Deoxys-S, but more so with the likes of fantastic Pokemon like Keldeo and Garchomp. To sum it up, Landorus is incredibly powerful, hard to switch into, and versatile, but it has issues in bulk and its typing isn't that great; its Speed is also not super amazing. Please do not dismiss this argument and think I'm insane / out of mind, I actually do think this change should happen, and thus I present my argument for it.
Also, I've read through all these arguments about M-Mawile and right now I'm torn, I used to believe it was solidly A+, but now I'm swaying towards S.Let's make a Mega Mawile tier between A+ and S.
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
How was that making it out to be super frail ?___? And yes, I do know what Stall is, and Landorus gives Stall a rough time, I'll give you that. But how amazing is it against HO? With shit like Ice Beam Deoxys-S, Greninja, Latios, Hidden Power Ice Thundurus, Keldeo, Azumarill, amongst others, what can it even do ?__? Nothing can safely switch in, there's that, but it is so easy to revenge-kill, with tons of faster Pokemon on HO. Also, non-Knock Off Landorus struggles with Latias and Chansey on Stall, if Latias is even used lol. I see all of your points, but I still see Landorus as A+.
Yeah, Lando-I is not worthy of dropping at all. It's amazing vs Stall, gives a lot of trouble to Balance, and although HO can revenge kill it, pretty much the only safe switch-ins are Latis who get popped by Knock Off, so if it can come in for free (which its Ground immunity enables it to do quite easily), something is going to get hurt. Also, Sludge Wave really isn't good on Lando at all since it already 2HKOs every fairy in the game after rocks besides SpD Sylveon and lol Togekiss. It really doesn't suffer from 4MSS at all : the last move is more of a choice between beating Chansey+Latis (not all that necessary if you have a pursuit trapper), being able to set up rocks, threatening most of stall's answers to it (Rock Slide is actually legit), and being able to abuse the many switches it causes by setting up. It doesn't "need" any of these moves, it just enjoys them, and picks them depending on the team and personal preference. Earth Power/Focus Blast/Psychic is well enough to threaten a very large portion of the metagame, and although the last move isn't exactly "filler", it's nowhere near as useful as the 3 others
IMO Lando-I is literally the definition of low risk high reward: just for the price of one moveslot, you're able to significantly improve your matchup vs defensive teams, and quite honestly there is often little reason for an offensive team to not use it over any other stallbreaker, given that it's faster than most of them and therefore better vs opposing Offense, decently bulky, and doesn't take up a mega slot. Whenever I a stallbreaker that isn't Lando-I, I always wonder why I'm not just using that. Essentially, it is to stallbreakers what Deo-D is to hazard setters, what Deo-S is to revenge killers and what XZard is to sweepers : kinda just the best in the tier. So yeah, it defenitely deserves its S rank.
IMO Lando-I is literally the definition of low risk high reward: just for the price of one moveslot, you're able to significantly improve your matchup vs defensive teams, and quite honestly there is often little reason for an offensive team to not use it over any other stallbreaker, given that it's faster than most of them and therefore better vs opposing Offense, decently bulky, and doesn't take up a mega slot. Whenever I a stallbreaker that isn't Lando-I, I always wonder why I'm not just using that. Essentially, it is to stallbreakers what Deo-D is to hazard setters, what Deo-S is to revenge killers and what XZard is to sweepers : kinda just the best in the tier. So yeah, it defenitely deserves its S rank.
Mawile-mega is CLEAR S rank material. It has your set variety: SubPunch, SD, Knock Off mawile (Generally TR) and a great deal of coverage moves. Has incredibly strong priority in Sucker Punch. Is a perfect counter to the devastating defoggers, Lati@s. It is nearly impossible to switch into and it forces a great deal of switches on the first time in. There need be no team support, it has no rock weakness and incredible physical bulk. It breaks stall relatively easily and takes on offense with some prediction play if it doesn't run a sub. And that's only when it doesn't.
It CLEARLY has the most power in OU. It has fantastic bulk for any mon, and the single best defensive typing in the game... That's not taking anything away from the fairy stab. Dark+Fairy is resisted by very few mons out there... In fact, you'd need a steel/fairy or poison/fairy (DNE) to resist it. How we're not calling this thing S rank, even though it's only been "quietly great" for months is really inexplicable.
It CLEARLY has the most power in OU. It has fantastic bulk for any mon, and the single best defensive typing in the game... That's not taking anything away from the fairy stab. Dark+Fairy is resisted by very few mons out there... In fact, you'd need a steel/fairy or poison/fairy (DNE) to resist it. How we're not calling this thing S rank, even though it's only been "quietly great" for months is really inexplicable.
Ice Shard Weaviule and ice Shard Mamoswine OHKo Landorus. Both fo them are very viable )(actually more viable than Crawdaunt).
I said that i won't give explanations about Gliscor's rising because the majority agreed for it to rise, not that it rose because the majority wanted it to. Every single tour player i asked said that Gliscor should be A- at least, which, added with the majority of people that agreed with this promotion here and me, is more than enough to make it happen. Trust me, Gary would have done exactly the same in this case. I won't talk about why it's good anymore as Gliscor has been talked to death, but if you are comparing it to special walls then you are not looking at Gliscor from the right angle.
Mega Mawile is being nominated for S rank because it dominates tour play, simple as that. Most tour players think that Mega Mawile is deserving of S rank or is at the top of A+, so discussion about it rising is justified. I haven't proposed Mega Aggron for B but for B-, and this is because someone made a post about it in the VR thread, and because i don't have a lot of personal experience with Mega Aggron, which which is why i brought it up for discussion, to see what you guys have to say about it. Just because it has been proposed for a promotion doesn't mean it's going to get one, eg., Victini and Weavile. Finally, Torn-T is being nominated for a raise because Regen cores are quite common at the top of the ladder and because my personal experience with it has been great. If you don't trust me judgment then fine, but don't forget it's just a nomination. Not to mention that your description of Torn-T is extremely flawed. Torn-T under rain is a great Pokemon and very hard to wall (Hurricane + Superpower / Focus Blast + Knock Off + Taunt / U-turn) and its only problem as an offensive Pokemon under rain is reliance to rain and being checked by some great Pokemon (Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Rotom-W), while its AV set has decent power and is an amazing pivot, with its biggest drawbacks being weakness to SR and unreliable STAB.
You are free to have your own opinion, but Mega Mawile is universally accepted to be one of the best Pokemon in OU in higher levels of play, and as such it has a decent chance of making it to S rank.
And for what it's worth, i didn't want to give a rank to Mantine, D at the very best. But, after i saw that players whose skill i trust, such as Dice and Nog, say that it's viable on stall teams, i included it in C- even though i didn't want to. Managing the list is not only about putting Pokemon where you want or where the majority wants, it's also about listening to good players and good posters.
Let me start by saying that your set variety is a one moveslot change.... that is NOT set variety at all. It is just a change between fire fang, knockoff, and Focus Punch. I guess you could consider the sub set as seperate since it uses sub instead of SD so a whopping two moveslot change. Just to be fair Mega Medicham CLEARLY has more power than Mega Mawile.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also It definitely needs team support as its amazing defense stat is also hindered by its pitiful HP and Weakness to the two most common attacking types in the entire tier. It also falls to any special attacker like a paper bag with any prior damage at all which is not hard to accomplish due to its pitiful speed stat. Sucker punch is not reliable at all not to mention that the entirety of offense outspeeds it so you actually HAVE to rely on an unreliable move to deal damage not to mention it doesn't OHKO any of the answers to it on Offense. Mega Mawile should never go to a higher rank than Azumarrill because it simply is not better than Azumarrill. It's typing is worse than Azumarrill's, it has comparable power to the banded set.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Azumarrill also has reliable priority in Aqua Jet as well as actual set versatility being able to Wallbreak and revenge kill with band, Sweep with Belly Drum, and Pivot with Assault Vest.
TLDR; We are not calling Mega Mawile S rank because it has common weaknesses in Fire and Ground, Low Special bulk, Pitiful Speed, and unreliable priority, moving it up would imply that it is better than Azumarrill which it plainly is NOT.
I'd also just like to say that I think that Mega Mawile and Landorus should definitely be in the same rank as they are so comparable in what they do: threaten stall incredibly much while also being very useful vs offensive teams. If you think Landorus should drop to A+ Rank, Mega Mawile won't be rising to S Rank.
Nevertheless, I've articulated my thoughts on Mega Mawile on the previous page.
Nevertheless, I've articulated my thoughts on Mega Mawile on the previous page.
To be honest, it's not really a big deal. Quick comparison calc:
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 253-298 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 249-294 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 302-356 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The difference is almost negligible. Mega Mawile is on par with Bisharp in terms of power using its non-STAB moves. That if anything is a testament to its enormous power.
I honestly think you're overplaying the presence of burn in the OU tier. What uses burn? Rotom-W, which isn't really that common (don't quote usage stats, I mean in terms of usage in higher level play/among better players). Mega Charizard X, there's one, but that's not even its most common set. Heatran, occasionally and specifically for Mawile? Talonflame, occasionally? Burn isn't even that common in the OU tier. How much does it really care about paralysis? I don't think being paralyzed is /that/ big of a deal to a Pokemon that's already slow and has extremely strong priority. You're overplaying the effect of status on a Pokemon that's immune to Toxic whilst burn isn't really that common and it doesn't really care about paralysis. Mega Mawile also barely needs the setup turn. It gets a kill pretty much every single time it comes in against an offensive team, and does severe damage to anything on stall or balance. idk how that requires a turn of setup, it's not like Mega Gyarados or something where to actually bust enormous holes in things it typically needs a DD: Mega Mawile can start dealing enormous and ridiculously threatening amounts of damage right off the bat.
Things like 'Mega Mawile is weak to common Fire- and Ground-type attacks' don't really strike me as especially significant to its position in S Rank. Mega Charizard X has weaknesses to common Ground- and Dragon-type attacks. Aegislash has weaknesses to common Dark, Ground, Ghost, and Fire-type attacks. Landorus-I has weaknesses to common Water- and Ice-type attacks, and furthermore is easily felled by the likes of Latios and Latias. Thundurus-I is weak to common Rock- and Ice-type attacks, but moreover has such low bulk that it really can't take many remotely strong hits. Deoxys-S is weak to common Dark- and Ghost-type attacks and has puny bulk that makes it fall to most /decently strong/ attacks. Every single S Rank has weaknesses to common attacks, but manage to shine through due to the combination of their other traits.
Let's compare Mega Mawile to other S Rank threats in terms of how easy it is to check/counter:
Mega Charizard X has a myriad of common offensive and defensive checks/counters, including but not limited to Hippowdon, Azumarill, (Mega) Tyranitar, Gyarados, Landorus-T, Heatran, and Quagsire, in addition to numerous common Pokemon it can be revenge killed by, including but again not limited Deoxys-S, Scarf Chomp, Scarf/SR Exca ,and Thundurus-I's Prankster TWave.
Offensive Deoxys-S is dealt with by the likes of Ferrothorn, Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Mandibuzz, and Chansey, and furthermore has to contend with the likes of Thundurus-I Prankster TWave, Talonflame Brave Bird, Bisharp Sucker Punch/Pursuit 50/50s, and stuff like AV Azumarill and Kyurem-B that it can't KO and can KO it in return (1v1 scenario). It's also broken as shit, though not entirely for the offensive set.
Aegislash is on an entire other level from the rest of the S Rank and OU tier, and as far as I'm concerned should be the next thing we ban. However, even it has responses on every OU team. Things like Garchomp, Pursuit Bisharp, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, AV Azumarill, SDef Dragonite, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, Dark Pulse Greninja, Mega Mawile, Diggersby, defensive Tyranitar, and Amoonguss are on every OU team and all serve as checks or counters to some degree.
Landorus-I is tricky, but even then it has stuff like SDef Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Gyarados (as well as Mantine but that's far from common), SDef Dragonite, Chansey (to some extent), Latios, Latias, SDef Zapdos, and AV Tornadus-T to stand in its way.
Thundurus-I is checked by Hippowdon, Mega Charizard X, Aegislash, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, AV Raikou, Chansey, and other things (they're at least partially set-dependent, but Thundurus-I has a billion sets and these represent some of its best common checks/counters).
Now let's make a counter list for Mega Mawile: WoW Heatran (loses to SubPunch), WoW Zard X (doesn't actually win if Mawile SD's on the switch, then SD's again on the WoW, but neuters it to the point where it can be dealt with: consider this pretty good), Counter Skarmory (needs Sturdy intact to deal with any variants with Fire Fang and loses to SubPunch), Mega Venusaur (beats SubPunch variants), Landorus-T (generally solid, but easy to wear down), and Hippowdon (needs full Defense investment, which is suboptimal). We have like one or maybe two/three pretty good switch-ins on this list. Offensive teams only don't fail because of the presence of offensive checks like Keldeo and Terrakion and many Pokemon on the team being able to severely damage it, and defensive teams beat it by proxy of weakening it and crippling it before it causes too much hurt. I realize I haven't elaborated so much on counters for the other S Ranks and their set-dependency, but I still feel just the sheer lack of answers for Mega Mawile holds true regardless of how you interpret this comparison, and Mega Mawile is easily deserving of the S Rank by this and other comparisons.
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