Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Karxrida]

I'd also just like to say that I think that Mega Mawile and Landorus should definitely be in the same rank as they are so comparable in what they do: threaten stall incredibly much while also being very useful vs offensive teams. If you think Landorus should drop to A+ Rank, Mega Mawile won't be rising to S Rank.

Nevertheless, I've articulated my thoughts on Mega Mawile on the previous page.

Mega Mawile has to rely on a Sub or Sucker Punch to deal with Offense while Lando has a trolly speed of 101 and has U-turn to fuck over its switch-ins (many of which don't like Bisharp or Tyranitar).

I'll post my feelings on Mega Mawile once I collect my thoughts, but I'm against it moving up.

 

[Ajwf]

Let me start by saying that your set variety is a one moveslot change.... that is NOT set variety at all. It is just a change between fire fang, knockoff, and Focus Punch. I guess you could consider the sub set as seperate since it uses sub instead of SD so a whopping two moveslot change. Just to be fair Mega Medicham CLEARLY has more power than Mega Mawile.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also It definitely needs team support as its amazing defense stat is also hindered by its pitiful HP and Weakness to the two most common attacking types in the entire tier. It also falls to any special attacker like a paper bag with any prior damage at all which is not hard to accomplish due to its pitiful speed stat. Sucker punch is not reliable at all not to mention that the entirety of offense outspeeds it so you actually HAVE to rely on an unreliable move to deal damage not to mention it doesn't OHKO any of the answers to it on Offense. Mega Mawile should never go to a higher rank than Azumarrill because it simply is not better than Azumarrill. It's typing is worse than Azumarrill's, it has comparable power to the banded set.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Azumarrill also has reliable priority in Aqua Jet as well as actual set versatility being able to Wallbreak and revenge kill with band, Sweep with Belly Drum, and Pivot with Assault Vest.
TLDR; We are not calling Mega Mawile S rank because it has common weaknesses in Fire and Ground, Low Special bulk, Pitiful Speed, and unreliable priority, moving it up would imply that it is better than Azumarrill which it plainly is NOT.

What... The fuck was your post?

Set variety was one moveslot change? No. SD or Sub. Play Rough is mandatory. Knock Off or Sucker Punch, depending on team (TR or no). The last slot goes fire fang or iron head or focus punch. So only one of those slots aren't changing.

M-Medi has a move with nearly twice Mawile's base power, and is walled by Aegislash. M-Medi isn't as strong as Maw on any other attack, it's simply high jump kick which of course has the very noticable drawbacks. My assertion that it has the most power in OU stands... What you just did was something similar to calling ZardY the most powerful because fire blast may outpower Landorus, but whereas Lando overpowers on every other move.

How can you say steel/fairy is worse than water/fairy? While both are good, steel/fairy is by far better. Being weak to "Two of the most common attack types" isn't really true... Fire isn't as common as you think, each team averages one and talonflame, a common user, will die if it attacks mawile.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The recoil is 100 damage, which is a clear death for TF. If Mawile intimidated first, Flare Blitz won't even kill.

EQ is more common, yes. However, with the intimidate boost, Mawile can even survive a Lando EQ. It has some serious bulk, which is not to be underestimated. Definitely enough to survive non-stab EQs from dragons like Dnite and the rarer Salamence. The natural bulk mawile has basically assures it avoids an OHKO.

But, talking about a list of mons mawile will crush with Sub3Attacks (SuckerPunch,PlayRough,FocusPunch), which is the most common set, you have very few you won't beat. The switchins exist on all stall teams: Just find your local cleric and run. On the standard stall, Quagsire, Chansey and skarm if fire fang are all easy switch ins. Most Mega Venus today don't respect mawile and run EQ, so Mawile can even come in on Venu. On offense, coming in on Latias, Breloom after spore, TTar, Gardevoir, Deoxys and Clefable, and these are just the ones that can't do anything to Mawile regardless. In practice, there are multiple more chances and switches due to predictions, volt turns and even choice locks.

Unlike Azumarill, who's power is rather pitiful without the band (or the BD), Mawile's pure power is simply undeniable. You're comparing the two pretty wrong: Very few Azumarill will break stall whereas Mawile can do that as a footnote while it works vs Hyper Offensive teams. The only thing Azumarill has on mawile is the ability to not take a mega stone as it can't even kill Landorus with CB aqua jet.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Mega mawile should stay A+. It's extremely powerful, yes, but so is Choice Band Heracross, which can fucking OHKO physically defensive Skarmory with a tiny bit of prior damage and a Guts boost. Yet Heracross is B.

Returning to Mega Mawile, this thing can lose against all Pokemon in the S rank (not counting Deoxys-D / Deoxys-S). Aegislash is forced to play mindgames with it, yes, but it can still 2HKO with Iron Head, or OHKO if it holds a Weakness Policy. Mega Zard X... lol. Landorus can take a Sucker Punch and OHKO. Thundurus can set up a Nasty Plot on a predicted SP and KO with Thunderbolt. Also, Mega Mawile is walled by quite a few defensive Pokemon despite its enormous power, including Quagsire, Mega Venusaur, Hippowdon (who can also Roar away any SD boosts), Landorus-T, Gyarados (beware when mega evolving), Mega Scizor if it lacks Fire Fang. Despite its numerous resistances, it simply can't take special hits well due to its mediocre special defense, meaning it has trouble sweeping, especially against rain and teams packing one of the checks mentioned above.

 

[Rhaegar]

alexwolf it looks like since the last tier update this thread is getting flooded with an overwhelming number of posts in a short amount of time leading to repeated points and lack of regulated discussion. The VR thread on the other hand is quite barren. Maybe we can encourage more discussion over there so that badgeholders and vouched members don't add to the crowd here?

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Steel/Fairy is, objectively, the best defensive typing in the game. It has the best rario of weaknesses/resistances/immunities. There is no debating that.

alexwolf it looks like since the last tier update this thread is getting flooded with an overwhelming number of posts in a short amount of time leading to repeated points and lack of regulated discussion. The VR thread on the other hand is quite barren. Maybe we can encourage more discussion over there so that badgeholders and vouched members don't add to the crowd here?

To tell the truth, if I were a badge holder, I'd still prefer to discuss here than in that barren wasteland. That forum is depressing. This place has stupid posts but has lot of useful opinions too. VR has absolutely nothing.

 

[Redolent]

Steel/Fairy is, objectively, the best defensive typing in the game. It has the best rario of weaknesses/resistances/immunities. There is no debating that.

Doesn't work quite like that in practise though. The fact that the Steel type is and always has been so defensively overcentralising means that Fighting, Fire and Ground are extremely common offensive types and make the many resistances provided by Steel typing relatively less valuable. For example, resisting the Grass or Poison type is in almost all circumstances inferior to resisting Fighting, Ground or Fire types, which partly explains the success of defensive Pokémon with uncommon weaknesses like Rotom-W, Clefable and Quagsire.

Mega Mawile is definitely far more impressive defensively than the likes of Bisharp could ever hope to be, though.

 

[alexwolf]

Now let's make a counter list for Mega Mawile: WoW Heatran (loses to SubPunch), WoW Zard X (doesn't actually win if Mawile SD's on the switch, then SD's again on the WoW, but neuters it to the point where it can be dealt with: consider this pretty good), Counter Skarmory (needs Sturdy intact to deal with any variants with Fire Fang and loses to SubPunch), Mega Venusaur (beats SubPunch variants), Landorus-T (generally solid, but easy to wear down), and Hippowdon (needs full Defense investment, which is suboptimal). We have like one or maybe two/three pretty good switch-ins on this list. Offensive teams only don't fail because of the presence of offensive checks like Keldeo and Terrakion and many Pokemon on the team being able to severely damage it, and defensive teams beat it by proxy of weakening it and crippling it before it causes too much hurt. I realize I haven't elaborated so much on counters for the other S Ranks and their set-dependency, but I still feel just the sheer lack of answers for Mega Mawile holds true regardless of how you interpret this comparison, and Mega Mawile is easily deserving of the S Rank by this and other comparisons.

Not taking any side for now, but Mega Mawile definitely has more solid checks that you mentioned:

• SpD WoW Talonflame
• Sub Aegislash (checks SubPunch variants)
  
• Gliscor
  
• Physically defensive Amoonguss with Hidden Power Fire (checks SubPunch and SD + Knock Off sets)
  
• Mega Aggron
• WoW Victini (checks SD variants)
• Entei

I didn't go further down the viability list, because S, A, and B rank Pokemon are those that are supposed to be viable enough to be used on a regular basis. Anything else is really niche to be considered as a reason to not raise Mega Mawile to S rank.

Oh, and WoW is definitely common enough and seen on enough relevant threats to be considered as one of Mega Mawile's weaknesses.

alexwolf it looks like since the last tier update this thread is getting flooded with an overwhelming number of posts in a short amount of time leading to repeated points and lack of regulated discussion. The VR thread on the other hand is quite barren. Maybe we can encourage more discussion over there so that badgeholders and vouched members don't add to the crowd here?

People will post wherever they want, no point in telling to someone to post in the VR version. As for the lack of focused discussion, that's what you get when people don't stick to the Pokemon i propose for discussion and talk about whatever they want. Just stick to discussing the Pokemon brought up for discussion in the update posts and the problem with the lack of focus will be somewhat mitigated.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mega Mawile: If it's not S-rank, it's definitely the best A+ ranked pokemon. It does tons of damage to everything it touches and can change it counters completely by changing its coverage move or using Sub over SD. Nothing else in A+ is really able to do this.

Also, while it's weak to Earthquake, this is one of the easiest moves to play around due to an abundance of excellent Pokemon that are immune to it, as well as Balloon users. It makes a lot of 50/50 predictions for the one trying to get rid of Mawile.

It's also weak to fire, though this is not as common as Earthquake. But this is a Pokemon with only two weaknesses, an abundance of resistances (nine it total) and two immunities. It has great defensive synergy with quite a lot of things, especially dragons. Also the Fire weakness is negated in Rain, if you feel like making a Rain team with Mawile :) No it's totally legit: Kingdra/Mawile is a neat core, and Mawile without a fire weakness is just that much harder to deal with.

Mega mawile should stay A+. It's extremely powerful, yes, but so is Choice Band Heracross, which can fucking OHKO physically defensive Skarmory with a tiny bit of prior damage and a Guts boost. Yet Heracross is B.

Why do people do this. It's happened more than a few times. Pokemon A is being discussed for being raised a rank, and someone brings up Pokemon B that's not as good as it, point out that they do something that Pokemon A can, and somehow this is an argument against Pokemon A ?_?

Here I made an MS Paint diagram to explain why this is dumb:

Hide

Also, Mega Mawile is walled by quite a few defensive Pokemon despite its enormous power, including Quagsire, Mega Venusaur, Hippowdon (who can also Roar away any SD boosts), Landorus-T, Gyarados (beware when mega evolving), Mega Scizor if it lacks Fire Fang. Despite its numerous resistances, it simply can't take special hits well due to its mediocre special defense, meaning it has trouble sweeping, especially against rain and teams packing one of the checks mentioned above.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 154-183 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery <-- Protip: no one runs 252/252+
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- Lando scares it off with Earthquake but this is still a considerable chunk of damage for something that's considered a counter.
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- If Gyarados is running this spread, it doesn't do that much to Mawile. This is a 2HKO after SR, also.

And yes, Mega Scizor loses to ones running Fire Fang, which was the whole reasoning in the first part of my post: Mega Mawile, unlike nearly everything in A+, changes its counters by changing one or two moves around. Just about everything else in A+ has a defensive threat it will never get around; this is not the case for Mawile (unless you count ultra niche pokemon like Arcanine, whose only shred of viability is basically from countering the loving hell out of Mawile, which is really a testament to how good Mawile is.)

 

[Giometry]

What... The fuck was your post?

Set variety was one moveslot change? No. SD or Sub. Play Rough is mandatory. Knock Off or Sucker Punch, depending on team (TR or no). The last slot goes fire fang or iron head or focus punch. So only one of those slots aren't changing.

M-Medi has a move with nearly twice Mawile's base power, and is walled by Aegislash. M-Medi isn't as strong as Maw on any other attack, it's simply high jump kick which of course has the very noticable drawbacks. My assertion that it has the most power in OU stands... What you just did was something similar to calling ZardY the most powerful because fire blast may outpower Landorus, but whereas Lando overpowers on every other move.

How can you say steel/fairy is worse than water/fairy? While both are good, steel/fairy is by far better. Being weak to "Two of the most common attack types" isn't really true... Fire isn't as common as you think, each team averages one and talonflame, a common user, will die if it attacks mawile.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The recoil is 100 damage, which is a clear death for TF. If Mawile intimidated first, Flare Blitz won't even kill.

EQ is more common, yes. However, with the intimidate boost, Mawile can even survive a Lando EQ. It has some serious bulk, which is not to be underestimated. Definitely enough to survive non-stab EQs from dragons like Dnite and the rarer Salamence. The natural bulk mawile has basically assures it avoids an OHKO.

But, talking about a list of mons mawile will crush with Sub3Attacks (SuckerPunch,PlayRough,FocusPunch), which is the most common set, you have very few you won't beat. The switchins exist on all stall teams: Just find your local cleric and run. On the standard stall, Quagsire, Chansey and skarm if fire fang are all easy switch ins. Most Mega Venus today don't respect mawile and run EQ, so Mawile can even come in on Venu. On offense, coming in on Latias, Breloom after spore, TTar, Gardevoir, Deoxys and Clefable, and these are just the ones that can't do anything to Mawile regardless. In practice, there are multiple more chances and switches due to predictions, volt turns and even choice locks.

Unlike Azumarill, who's power is rather pitiful without the band (or the BD), Mawile's pure power is simply undeniable. You're comparing the two pretty wrong: Very few Azumarill will break stall whereas Mawile can do that as a footnote while it works vs Hyper Offensive teams. The only thing Azumarill has on mawile is the ability to not take a mega stone as it can't even kill Landorus with CB aqua jet.

SD or Sub i agree with but then it becomes a no brainer, Play rough is play rough and sucker punch is also mandatory. If running sub then mawile will always run focus punch. If SD then the choice is between knock off and fire fang as what are you using iron head for, you must really hate clefable if you are using it. M-Medi is in OU as such it is in ou stands. Not to mention that since when does mega mawile beat aegislash, if anything it is a hit or miss thing thanks to kings shield shenanigans. Steel/Fairy is not by far better than Water/Fairy as steel fairy is weak to fire and ground which are present on 20 of the A- through S ranks a good amount of the time. Water/Fairy on the other hand resists fire and is not weak to ground being weak to the far less common Electric, Poison, and Grass Types which are only present on 7 of the A- through S Ranks and, as far as my education goes, 20 is a larger number than 7 not to mention in terms of valuable resists/immunities both share Dragon, Ice, Dark, and Bug; Azumarrill has fire (which mawile is once again weak to), water, and fighting all common attacking types; mawile has Normal, Poison, Rock, Grass, Flying, and Fairy out of which the only one that is valuable is flying (and fairy and rock to a limited extent). So it seems that azumarrill has the better typing. You are also assuming that Mega-Maw is getting a free sub all the time against offense which is simply not true. Also since when can mawile come in on TTar because as far as i know earthquake and fire punch/blast were things that mawile was weak to. Offensive Clefable also carries Fire Blast and if your coming in has either set up or hit you for prior damage. Mawile doesn't want to come in on quag in fear of a scald burn or earthquake which 2HKO's Mega-Maw. You are also assuming that Mawile always has intimidate which it doesn't, it gets one intimidate so you better make sure its valuable. Yes Mawile does a number on stall but it is in no way comparable to landorus for one simple fact 101 speed > 50 Speed. Landorus also happens to wreck balance alongside stall as well as doing a number on offense thanks to troll speed tier. I am not saying Mawile isn't good, hell it's one of the top mons in A+ and when an S- Tier was being brought up i actually nominated Mawile for it, but it's just not as good as any of the S-Rank mons and is more comparable to A+ rank threats like Azumarrill and, if you wan't to just compare wallbreaking power, Keldeo than say Landorus.

 

[KarateKoala]

SD or Sub i agree with but then it becomes a no brainer, Play rough is play rough and sucker punch is also mandatory. If running sub then mawile will always run focus punch. If SD then the choice is between knock off and fire fang as what are you using iron head for, you must really hate clefable if you are using it. M-Medi is in OU as such it is in ou stands. Not to mention that since when does mega mawile beat aegislash, if anything it is a hit or miss thing thanks to kings shield shenanigans. Steel/Fairy is not by far better than Water/Fairy as steel fairy is weak to fire and ground which are present on 20 of the A- through S ranks a good amount of the time. Water/Fairy on the other hand resists fire and is not weak to ground being weak to the far less common Electric, Poison, and Grass Types which are only present on 7 of the A- through S Ranks and, as far as my education goes, 20 is a larger number than 7 not to mention in terms of valuable resists/immunities both share Dragon, Ice, Dark, and Bug; Azumarrill has fire (which mawile is once again weak to), water, and fighting all common attacking types; mawile has Normal, Poison, Rock, Grass, Flying, and Fairy out of which the only one that is valuable is flying (and fairy and rock to a limited extent). So it seems that azumarrill has the better typing. You are also assuming that Mega-Maw is getting a free sub all the time against offense which is simply not true. Also since when can mawile come in on TTar because as far as i know earthquake and fire punch/blast were things that mawile was weak to. Offensive Clefable also carries Fire Blast and if your coming in has either set up or hit you for prior damage. Mawile doesn't want to come in on quag in fear of a scald burn or earthquake which 2HKO's Mega-Maw. You are also assuming that Mawile always has intimidate which it doesn't, it gets one intimidate so you better make sure its valuable. Yes Mawile does a number on stall but it is in no way comparable to landorus for one simple fact 101 speed > 50 Speed. Landorus also happens to wreck balance alongside stall as well as doing a number on offense thanks to troll speed tier. I am not saying Mawile isn't good, hell it's one of the top mons in A+ and when an S- Tier was being brought up i actually nominated Mawile for it, but it's just not as good as any of the S-Rank mons and is more comparable to A+ rank threats like Azumarrill and, if you wan't to just compare wallbreaking power, Keldeo than say Landorus.

Ill give you that azumarill might have just as good of a typing, but there are lots of things wrong. First off, iron head is fairly common on mawile as it allows him to easily beat mega venusaur, who i would call a fairly common and a very dangerous defensive threat. I also think that youre overselling how well landorus does against offense, as if youre running hyper offense, you probably have one of these mons on your team: azumarill, keldeo, thundurus, garchomp, greninja, etc. I would even argue that landorus is more easily revenge killed than mega mawile due to its exploitable weaknesses and lack of priority. Finally, comparing keldeo and mawile is just stupid, sorry i said it. Keldeo doesn't even come close to the wall breaking power of mawile, or landorus for that matter, as he is constantly choice locked, leaving him very prediction reliant. Mega Mawile is gonna mess up absolutely anything that comes in, given its massive attack, and he can switch moves! Any competent player also wouldn't blindly send in mawile on clefable, or ttar without scouting for flamethrower first, and even if he does he's not going to ko, while you can easily ohko with iron head. Also, its common knowledge to not switch in your physical attackers on scald, not to mention that it will frequently be quagsire who is attempting to switch in on mawile lol. Finally, although you are right that ttar can carry earthquake and fire blast, the opposing player has to weigh his options and decide whether it is worth it to lose ttar to a play rough, or not even ohko mega mawile from full health. A lot of these matchups you cited have a lot more complexity to them then you give credit for, and often it is very risky for the opposing player to stay in on mega mawile. Finally, for the whole speed argument, there aren't too many base 100's present in OU right now anyway, and hyper offense usually carries a plethora of pokemon above that 101 speed mark, think thundurus, keldeo, lati@s, greninja, gengar, garchomp. These are some of the most common pokes on offensive teams . If anything, landorus' speed is outclassed by mawile's access to priority against offensive teams, and i would argue that offense has a much harder time against mawile than it does against lando.

 

[pika pal]

To be honest, it's not really a big deal. Quick comparison calc:

I honestly think you're overplaying the presence of burn in the OU tier. What uses burn? Rotom-W, which isn't really that common (don't quote usage stats, I mean in terms of usage in higher level play/among better players). Mega Charizard X, there's one, but that's not even its most common set. Heatran, occasionally and specifically for Mawile? Talonflame, occasionally? Burn isn't even that common in the OU tier. How much does it really care about paralysis? I don't think being paralyzed is /that/ big of a deal to a Pokemon that's already slow and has extremely strong priority. You're overplaying the effect of status on a Pokemon that's immune to Toxic whilst burn isn't really that common and it doesn't really care about paralysis. Mega Mawile also barely needs the setup turn. It gets a kill pretty much every single time it comes in against an offensive team, and does severe damage to anything on stall or balance. idk how that requires a turn of setup, it's not like Mega Gyarados or something where to actually bust enormous holes in things it typically needs a DD: Mega Mawile can start dealing enormous and ridiculously threatening amounts of damage right off the bat.

Mawile's speed is a serious detriment and a very good reason to need that set-up turn. Mega Mawile is so slow that on top of offensive checks, there are more than a couple walls/defensive Pokemon that can outpace it, in some cases without investment, meaning not even Sucker Punch can save it from being burned in a lot of cases. And then there's the issue of phasing if it's a SD set
- Maybe it's not USED much, but if Rotom-W is A viability, it should probably be considered to some degree
- Mega Charizard X may not always use Bulky WoW sets, but consider that it's a stall set, the play style Mawile's usually best at murdering. Plus, given its coverage, I could imagine a rare offensive set choosing to run WoW and leaving EQ targets to teammates
- Heatran is beaten by the SubPunch set, which falls into the "really wants to set up" point I mentioned. If Mawile is brought in on a double switch, or the opponent knows to U-Turn/Volt Switch, Mawile's not getting that Sub
- If Talonflame's not carrying Will-o-Wisp, it's carrying U-Turn, which means a check can get in before Mawile sets up.

Mawile's priority is certainly strong, but it's not entirely reliable. Requiring an enemy to attack with slower/non-priority of its own means faster opponents can boost, heal, sub, or status if Mawile mispredicts. Anything that can take a hit switching in and outspends can pull a Non-attacking move to stop it, even if it's as frail as Gengar.

While M-Mawile is already slow, paralysis means that it can't outpace ANYTHING, not even Ferrothorn or Quagsire. The former could Leech Seed it before dying, which is a problem when it has no recovery, while the latter can manage a 2HKO with Earthquake on SD sets, or boost its defenses to stall out SubPunch sets. Quagsire is relevant, so while paralysis won't impact Mega Mawile as much as other Pokemon, it still does allow another common Stall Mon to deal with it. And that's assuming no hax from the status, because while Mawile keeps constant offensive pressure, that one free turn is about all some of its checks/counters need to completely turn the match.

Status is indeed something Mawile has to have a way to mitigate, if not itself then through a teammate.

My point was that while Mawile presents a threat, it needs that first turn to ensure it's not stopped prematurely, whether that's using a Sub to avoid status, or SD to make sure it can break walls. Unboosted Fire Fang has a 14% chance to 2HKO 252/232+ Skarmory with Leftovers, which allows it to either Counter, or Whirlwind. Thundurus doesn't need a Sub or absolutely need a boost to use Prankster Thunder Waves and cripple set-up sweepers, for example.

While certainly among the top for A+, I feel like Mawile has a decent number of common answers that can prey on its flaws to stop it easily. For A+ Pokemon, I view those flaws as several small or a few noticeable "chinks/openings in the armor" (metaphorical in the case of offensive mons), while for S Pokemon, they're weaker but nonetheless armored parts of their build, or simply a few small "chinks."

 

[Ajwf]

SD or Sub i agree with but then it becomes a no brainer, Play rough is play rough and sucker punch is also mandatory. If running sub then mawile will always run focus punch. If SD then the choice is between knock off and fire fang as what are you using iron head for, you must really hate clefable if you are using it. M-Medi is in OU as such it is in ou stands. Not to mention that since when does mega mawile beat aegislash, if anything it is a hit or miss thing thanks to kings shield shenanigans. Steel/Fairy is not by far better than Water/Fairy as steel fairy is weak to fire and ground which are present on 20 of the A- through S ranks a good amount of the time. Water/Fairy on the other hand resists fire and is not weak to ground being weak to the far less common Electric, Poison, and Grass Types which are only present on 7 of the A- through S Ranks and, as far as my education goes, 20 is a larger number than 7 not to mention in terms of valuable resists/immunities both share Dragon, Ice, Dark, and Bug; Azumarrill has fire (which mawile is once again weak to), water, and fighting all common attacking types; mawile has Normal, Poison, Rock, Grass, Flying, and Fairy out of which the only one that is valuable is flying (and fairy and rock to a limited extent). So it seems that azumarrill has the better typing. You are also assuming that Mega-Maw is getting a free sub all the time against offense which is simply not true. Also since when can mawile come in on TTar because as far as i know earthquake and fire punch/blast were things that mawile was weak to. Offensive Clefable also carries Fire Blast and if your coming in has either set up or hit you for prior damage. Mawile doesn't want to come in on quag in fear of a scald burn or earthquake which 2HKO's Mega-Maw. You are also assuming that Mawile always has intimidate which it doesn't, it gets one intimidate so you better make sure its valuable. Yes Mawile does a number on stall but it is in no way comparable to landorus for one simple fact 101 speed > 50 Speed. Landorus also happens to wreck balance alongside stall as well as doing a number on offense thanks to troll speed tier. I am not saying Mawile isn't good, hell it's one of the top mons in A+ and when an S- Tier was being brought up i actually nominated Mawile for it, but it's just not as good as any of the S-Rank mons and is more comparable to A+ rank threats like Azumarrill and, if you wan't to just compare wallbreaking power, Keldeo than say Landorus.

If we're talking moves weak to commonly on the mons ranked through S to A-, I found Azumarill to be weak to 12 and Mawile to 17 :? Not sure what you were counting. Just because something CAN run an SE move doesn't mean they will... Hidden Power Fire everything, right? Support TTar MIGHT carry fire blast?? But I think Rocks/Pursuit/Edge/Crunch is still more common... Your argument of clefable is kind of bad... no clefable carries fire blast iirc, some CM versions might carry flamethrower but

+1 4 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mawile can still check down a +1 (or +2 at full HP) Clefable and OHKO with iron head.

 

[Giometry]

If we're talking moves weak to commonly on the mons ranked through S to A-, I found Azumarill to be weak to 12 and Mawile to 17 :? Not sure what you were counting. Just because something CAN run an SE move doesn't mean they will... Hidden Power Fire everything, right? Support TTar MIGHT carry fire blast?? But I think Rocks/Pursuit/Edge/Crunch is still more common... Your argument of clefable is kind of bad... no clefable carries fire blast iirc, some CM versions might carry flamethrower but

+1 4 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mawile can still check down a +1 (or +2 at full HP) Clefable and OHKO with iron head.

Offensive Mega Venu and Greninja commonly run HP Fire now and Clefable used to run fire blast on most CM variants and still runs blast on the offensive set (although why flamethrower over Fire Blast IDK but whatever) Offensive TTar run EQ or Fire Blast/Punch and support its a toss up between Ice Beam and Fire Blast but i get your point. My point is just that Mawile should not be ranked over Azumarrill and this is why i agreed with the S- rank being added for cases like these.

 

[Srn]

I think the dumbest part about mega mawile is the 50/50 s that come with it when you face it or even use it. It's simply ridiculous.
It's so strong that you really have to guess whether its going to sucker punch or play rough, and when you lose the guessing game, the tides of the battle drastically change, and that's really stupid.
So you may ask, well, what's the difference between this and bisharp?

Well, mega mawile's strength makes the decisions you make more absolute. So let's assume that mega mawile is at +2, because steel/fairy is the best defensive typing in the game and intimidate is hella nice.
Sure, you can afford to mispredict if a mon has enough health to take a knock off or has a resistance, so you can recklessly set up/attack b/c ur safe.
However, with mega mawile, between fairy's great offensive coverage and a mighty sucker punch, there's often no wiggle room to mispredict.
"If you try and CM with lando-i, you can avoid the +2 sucker punch, but what if he play roughs? But then shouldn't I earth power?"
As if it wasn't bad enough, the USER itself has to make these 50/50 guesses. More often than not, the fighter must also correctly guess these 50/50s in order to tip victory toward him/herself.
and that's the part that sucks.
Once mega mawile sets up an SD, more often than not, either player will win by guessing a 50/50 correctly.
It's disgusting and i hate it.

I used to think mega mawile was pretty subpar too. Too slow, too overreliant on sucker punch, to easily checked with a fast wisp and common weaknesses to fire and ground, yadda yadda yadda.
But i tried it out on the suspect ladder and I 6-0'd, 6fucking0'd about 5 teams there. Its simply insane how well mega mawile works and how easily it can fall flat on its face if you just guess the play rough or sucker punch wrong. Its dumb and annoying. It's more annoying than bisharp because you will probably die if you mispredict, and bisharp isn't strong enough to guarantee that.

However there are plenty of ways to deal with it, yeah, those have already been mentioned and everybody knows it, so w/e.
I just wanted to cover a part of mega mawile that really just turns a majority of games into a coin flip once it gets a boost, and that's why it should be S.
yes you can have a fast wisp prepared or a fighting (or other dark resist) type revenge killer, sure, but at that point you're sorta limiting teambuilding :[
and no matter how much you prepare the fact that mega mawile has almost no switch-ins remains unchanged. So yeah S rank yipee.

Tailwind is pointless on stall, and defensive Gyarados can make use of Scald in the same way that Alomomola can, it's used for its burn chance not its damage output. It's not a good Defogger either because it loses a huge chunk of health from Stealth Rock and has no reliable way to get it back. Gyarados is completely viable as a defensive Pokémon so it is comparable.

If we're praising Mantine because it walls Keldeo, Charizard Y and Landorus while also being able to Defog, then I'm struggling to see why Latias wouldn't be the better option in the vast majority of cases.

Latias is incredibly easy to just dispose of with a simple pursuit lol, mantine is not

 

[Nog]

I would just like to point out that causing 50/50s are not an argument that should be considered. Aegislash, along with XY OU as a whole, is the definition of a 50/50 and is S rank. To Ajwf most support ttar run either Ice Beam or Fire Blast as coverage and to Giometry most Greninja run HP Grass rather than Fire right now for Azumarill and Mega Gyarados. Lastly I encourage you all (going forward) to provide more than one reason to why a Pokemon should be ranked where you feel it should be. It generates stronger arguments and quite honestly helps everyone, including the opposition, know exactly what your Pokemon has to offer or what hinders it. This helps me, alexwolf, and others better gauge the majorities vote. Thank you.

 

[TFL]

It's the amount that is riding on that 50/50 that makes it worth arguing, Nog. The biggest argument for Charizard X's S rank was that you had to guess its set right and if you did not there'd be a good chance of losing on that turn alone. Mawile's setting up ofttimes results in a similar scenario: you have to guess correctly if you don't want to see your chances of winning go down the drain. There aren't many mons that can completely shift the momentum in a match with just one turn of (mis)prediction.

 

[Nog]

It's the amount that is riding on that 50/50 that makes it worth arguing, Nog. The biggest argument for Charizard X's S rank was that you had to guess its set right and if you did not there'd be a good chance of losing on that turn alone. Mawile's setting up ofttimes results in a similar scenario: you have to guess correctly if you don't want to see your chances of winning go down the drain. There aren't many mons that can completely shift the momentum in a match with just one turn of (mis)prediction.

Ok, I do agree with this, but what I meant was using that as your sole argument. My fault for bad word choice.

 

[Askeia]

Can we please stop comparing Mantine to Gyarados? They play two completely different roles, and I personally find the comparisons appaling. Really, it's like comparing Dragonite to Altaria; you just don't do it. You just don't.

Even if their most optimal sets have different roles, Gyarados can easily run a tweaked set to work better than Mantine. Even with Mantine's role, Gyarados performs it better. Mantine's only viable set runs 4 of Scald/Rest/Toxic/Defog/Sleep Talk, of which, only Defog Gyarados doesn't have. As much as Gyarados is not designed to fulfil the same role, he can get better bulk with no problem, and even run the exact same set minus Defog (Use Dragon Tail or Roar or Taunt, whatever).

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 121-143 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Gyarados: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 99-117 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 132 Def Gyarados: 114-135 (29 - 34.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

With a spread of 248/132/128, Gyarados can easily be bulkier than physically defensive Mantine on both sides (I believe Nog runs 252/252+/4 bulk as seen from his post in the Team Showcase thread). And these calcs don't even factor in Intimidate. (In fact, as long as Mantine runs less than 136 SDef Calm, or 252 SDef Bold, Gyarados can always tweak its investment to come out with better bulk on both sides.)

Gyarados can hit harder with uninvested Waterfall or you can run Scald like Mantine does. Literally the only reason why Mantine will be used over Gyarados for that specific role is for Defog (and a slightly stronger Scald, but meh), and Mantine is hardly considered a reliable user of Defog (weak to SR, lacking Roost), especially in stall where there are much better users of the move. Water Absorb is even less significant Gyarados is only 4 hittd by Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump , which is like the strongest water attack in the game.

For an analogy; let's hypothetically make Dragonite unable to learn Defog but give it to Altaria and remove Roost from both of them, keeping in mind that dragonite is bulkier than both sides, Altaria will not be ranked. Defensive Gyarados outclassed defensive Mantine the same way defensive Dragonite outclassed defensive Altaria. If a primarily offensive pokemon almost completely outclassed a defensive pokemon at a defensive role, I seriously doubt the quality of the latter

 

[AM]

Originally I was on the fence about M-Mawile moving up to S. However after reading through some of the arguments as well as having some prior experience with running M-Mawile on a rain team I can definitely see the move up to S rank. Most of the arguments seem like they correlated to a 1v1 scenario which made people argue between S and A+. I don't want to bring up the same arguments cause a lot of people already covered plenty of ground on why it should move up. What I would do like to point out is this.

M-Mawile is a major threat to just about any team not from a 1v1 stand point alone, but as a powerful cohesive glue to balanced and offensive teams. What needs to be considered is that within only a couple of roles literally, Mawile can dismantle key threats that can be a burden to the team that is being backed up by it. "Oh you need a lure for something like Heatran, something to stall break, or anything willing to take the bait of switching into M-Mawile?" No problem let's have Mawile hide behind a substitute and basically guarantee a KO if not 2 or more mons down. "You need something that can sweep almost the entire team/meta after a +2 SD?" No problem there either, here's a Swords Dance on top of your disgustingly high attack stat along with some priority. As I also mentioned, consider how Mawile is backed up by ample team support in most cases. Have you ever watched an M-Mawile be the sole factor of an opponent losing not just because it's a power house, but simply because it was supported by something such as Healing Wish Latias?

Also the whole prediction thing about M-Mawile isn't as difficult as some people are making it sound, so I don't see it as a valid argument. The majority of 50/50s for the most part are on your side when it comes to M-Mawile. You force your opponent into a spot where they can potentially lose one or more mons guaranteed and worst case scenario you lose M-Mawile, which can be a perfectly fine trade off when the game has already been decided due to M-Mawiles contributions. I'm all for it moving S, cause right now honestly out of all the A+ mons it's generally a notch above many of them in an overall sense.

Edit: Wanted to just add on that similar to the S rank mons currently ranked as such, when M-Mawile is seen in team preview people will already mentally prepare themselves to try and handle it as soon as possible before it does too much damage. Even then sometimes you're not able to stop the inevitable. Unlike the A+ mons where people are generally prepared when seeing it but aren't too worried simply because they are much more easier to work around in some cases.

 

[Rhaegar]

Mawile has checks but none of them solidly check both of it's sets. Wisp users lose to SubPunch, as do faster Dark resists and Aggron. Aegislash is knocked out by +2 Fire Fang/Knock Off/Sucker Punch, Amoonguss by Fire Fang, Entei by +2 Sucker Punch, and Gliscor by +2 Play Rough without being able to OHKO with Earthquake. Venusaur beats SubPunch but unless it runs Sleep Powder is highly threatened by +2 Sucker Punch and flat out loses to Iron Head and Rain Mawile while even 252 Bold Venusaur gets 2HKOed by +2 Play Rough without being able to 2HKO with HP Fire. Max defense Hippowdon has good chances of living a +2 Play Rough from full HP but even that's a roll, besides, it can't OHKO with Earthquake.

If Mawile sets up it's often likely to take down at least one and a half mons. I'm currently forced to run two Mawile checks on every team I build off late which is not Hyper Offense. I have to either run VenuTran with WoW or Sub Aegislash with another SD set check.

Aside from fast Wisps, surprise Subs could be decent checks. I ran Sub Lando-I on HO for about ten games on suspect since I didn't have any solid a check to Mawile (Keldeo takes about 60% from +2 Sucker Punch). Against literally every single Mawile team I faced (i.e half of them), Lando helped turn the game around. I baited it by allowing Lando to get slightly weakened previously and often won on the last two turns with Sub. Sub works best only so long as it remains a surprise, but even then the odds are in favor of the Sub user. It works similarly against Bisharp of course.

Now possibly the only three four defensive mons that can come close to being called checks to every Mawile set in one slot are

- Sleep Powder MVenu: Solid check 1v1, though a gamble. Not as effective if the opponent uses Sleep fodder. Not an amazing set otherwise and not something I would run.
- Landorus-T: Takes -1 Play Rough well enough. +1 Sucker Punch, less so, but still cannot be beaten by any Mawile variant if it switches in healthy.
- Defensive SubProtect Gliscor: And we know it's SpDef TauntRoost is easily a better set.
- Edit: Arcanine duh.

I think it's enough that Mawile has a ridiculous impact on teambuilding for any team that doesn't want to be wiped to warrant a place in S. It actually doesn't completely fit in either S or A+, but is clearly a bigger threat than every other A+ mon while being equally or even more threatening than XZard, being able to stallbreak with all it's sets.

 

[Red Cat]

I guess in the end it really doesn't matter that much whether we consider Mega Mawile the best A+ rank mon or the worst S rank mon. I'll just make this one comparison to Landorus. Both are extremely powerful right from the get go. Both of them have very few hard counters. But Landorus has one significant advantage over Mega Mawile and that is the ability to kill almost everything in OU with one moveset. Lando can bascially kill everything it needs to with Earth Power / Focus Blast / Knock Off / Sludge Wave. It doesn't really need Psychic all that much because non specially defensive variants of Mega Venusaur and Amoongus are 2HKO'ed by EP and so is AV Conkeldurr. Meanwhile, Mega Mawile is forced to run Play Rough and Sucker Punch. It then has to choose between Iron Head, Fire Fang, Knock Off, and Focus Punch for the third attacking move and has to choose between Swords Dance and Sub for the fourth move. If you choose Iron Head, you lose to Heatran, Ferrothorn (if not running sub), and Skarmory. If you choose Fire Fang, you lose to Heatran and Mega Venusaur. If you choose Knock Off, you lose to opposing Mega Mawile, Mega Venusaur, Heatran, and Ferrothorn (if not running sub). If you choose Focus Punch, you lose to Mega Venusaur, but you lose to everything else listed above if you don't have a sub up. You also have to choose between Swords Dance and Substitute. If you choose Swords Dance, Mega Mawile is more vulnerable to status and obviously cannot use Focus Punch. If you choose Substitute, then you can't get that killer Sucker Punch which leaves it more vulnerable to being revenge killed. With Landorus, you don't really have to make these choices, you just use one moveset and demolish everything slower which is most of the tier.

Mega Mawile is obviously very borderline, so I'll say that if Mega Mawile does go up to S rank, then Lando needs to stay there, and if Lando drops, then Mega Mawile needs to stay in A+ because the lack of 4MSS for Lando along with its much better speed are important advantages over Mega Mawile as a wallbreaker (and not using up the mega slot).

 

[Rhaegar]

I guess in the end it really doesn't matter that much whether we consider Mega Mawile the best A+ rank mon or the worst S rank mon. I'll just make this one comparison to Landorus. Both are extremely powerful right from the get go. Both of them have very few hard counters. But Landorus has one significant advantage over Mega Mawile and that is the ability to kill almost everything in OU with one moveset. Lando can bascially kill everything it needs to with Earth Power / Focus Blast / Knock Off / Sludge Wave. It doesn't really need Psychic all that much because non specially defensive variants of Mega Venusaur and Amoongus are 2HKO'ed by EP and so is AV Conkeldurr. Meanwhile, Mega Mawile is forced to run Play Rough and Sucker Punch. It then has to choose between Iron Head, Fire Fang, Knock Off, and Focus Punch for the third attacking move and has to choose between Swords Dance and Sub for the fourth move. If you choose Iron Head, you lose to Heatran, Ferrothorn (if not running sub), and Skarmory. If you choose Fire Fang, you lose to Heatran and Mega Venusaur. If you choose Knock Off, you lose to opposing Mega Mawile, Mega Venusaur, Heatran, and Ferrothorn (if not running sub). If you choose Focus Punch, you lose to Mega Venusaur, but you lose to everything else listed above if you don't have a sub up. You also have to choose between Swords Dance and Substitute. If you choose Swords Dance, Mega Mawile is more vulnerable to status and obviously cannot use Focus Punch. If you choose Substitute, then you can't get that killer Sucker Punch which leaves it more vulnerable to being revenge killed. With Landorus, you don't really have to make these choices, you just use one moveset and demolish everything slower which is most of the tier.

Mega Mawile is obviously very borderline, so I'll say that if Mega Mawile does go up to S rank, then Lando needs to stay there, and if Lando drops, then Mega Mawile needs to stay in A+ because the lack of 4MSS for Lando along with its much better speed are important advantages over Mega Mawile as a wallbreaker (and not using up the mega slot).

Lando is checked by any Specially Defensive Flying type.

 

[Karxrida]

Lando is checked by any Specially Defensive Flying type.

How many of those exist that aren't fucked up by Knock Off?

 

[trc]

How many of those exist that aren't fucked up by Knock Off?

Uhh, Gliscor if it's already switched in once, Tornadus-T can still do fine, CBBNite can still do fine, even Mantine probably can lol.

 

[Salemance]

How many of those exist that aren't fucked up by Knock Off?

Idk, I myself run a specially defensive Zapdos and it works fairly well against all non Gravity variants after roosting on turn of Knock Off while toxic stalling it out.