Wait, Gravity Landorus is a thing?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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It isn't but once in awhile someone likes to be cute with it.
And so is Rock Polish. Fought both within same hour too and was pleasantly surprised to see something different than generic HP Ice and Knock Off (no matter how good the are).
Now just to say something though, we have easily supplied a well of information over Mega Mawile on a few pages alone, with it still seeming to be evenly split on what to do with the two headed beast, so may I make the suggestion of taking the time to look at the other options? Ive seen some discussion on the others and am wondering whether it is worth discussing them more than the few posts already presented cause they seem to have been lost just a little with the main topic being Mega Maw. I mean, 3 1/2 pages is enough for one Mons consideration no?
Discuss the other Pokemon if you want, I feel we do have a clear idea about Mawile. There have been a lot of points presented but in the end, we'll just have to find out. I think the other Pokemon up for discussion include Clefable and Mega Aggron, the former of which is quite an important decision and could garner some interesting discussion.
They're blacklisted because they're unviable in OU, and, when brought up, the discussion takes a massive blow and the intelligence level decreases greatly.
Just using that quote for reference for my own sake so don't mind that too much. I voiced my opinion m-mawile so I'll just start up some discussion about other stuff.
Tornadus-T rising to B+: I've seen this thing like once used on a rain team from personal experience battling it and some other times among other players. I'm not exactly sure if it really falls under the same category among things such as slowbro and m-medicham honestly. It has some good longevity with regenerator, speed, nice bulk with AV as well. The only reason I would see it moving up is simply cause it's stellar compared to the other B mons in its current category which doesn't really speak on it's overall viability compared to the B+ mons unfortunately. No real opinion on ranking as of now.
M-Pinsir dropping to A: Yeah I think someone just mentioned this earlier, the current environment right now is not favorable to M-Pinsir, in a similar way in how Char Y dropped. Much more offensive presence in a lot of team builds with sand offense, rain being used more lately, and in general hyper offense being a popular style now. This puts Pinsir in a position where it now needs to worry about all the mentioned aspects and really can only benefit against slower teams, which usually have an answer to m-pinsir anyways. Still great at what it does, a decent win condition at times, but has a tad bit trouble at times in the current environment. M-Pinisir to A.
M-Aggron to B-: Basically the same thing as Tornadus T in that it kind of outclasses some of the other mons that share the same viability but then becomes debatable amongst the B- mons. From the looks of it though the B- stuff could use some work. M-Alakazam and Rhyperior seem a little off down there so maybe I'll make a post in the future addressing those two. From what I've seen though, M-Aggron should stay in C+.
Clefable dropping to A: Jukain already touched upon this so not going to go into too much detail. Clefable generally fits well in A as the mons in that rank are all good, but have some flaws that more or less hold them back from being A+ threats in the meta. Clefable should be dropped down to A.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 243-289 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And that's pre-Defiant boost. At least Latias can dispose of Bisharp or Tyranitar with HP Fighting on the switch
I was just arguing that Azu is so similar to mega mawile and does not take a mega slot,like many others said here.BD azu sweeps everything apart from ferrothorn and mega vena at +6 ,similar to sub mega mawile.Band hits hard and almost nothing wants to switch into a play rough/waterfall. AV Azu counters a lot of things like keldeo,non WOW charizard mega x ,the lati twins and so forth.The thing is you need a turn to get a sub and your opponent can predict switches most of the time.It doesnt work most of the times.Azu should go up before mega mawile as it can use most of the arguments.There also is a 50:50 chance of predicting its set.Im not saying that it should go up ,just that its better than mawile mega.
AV Azumarill only checks them, Adamant Zard X does 55% with flare blitz and Lati@s 2hko with Psyshock.
First, BD Azumarill has to be completely safe throughout the majority of the game in order to sweep, once sitrus is gone Azumarill will just get revenge killed with faster priority/water resist.
Band Azumarill still gets walled by stuff like Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, and Amoonguss. The main thing however, is that being locked into a move makes Azumarill a lot less threatening than a +2 Mega Mawile because of the fact that Mega Mawile isn't choice locked.
They're both great Pokemon, but saying that Azumarill is better makes no sense.
"Taking up a mega slot" isn't really a valid argument, because even if MMawile does, its still the most powerful Pokemon in the entire game after Huge Power (MMedi comes a close second, while Mewtwo X is 3rd) so its pretty redundant.
Azu after BD is at best 75% HP. That's without taking any sort of damage on switch, or whole setting up. And while Azu may be very good for what it does, it's typing lets it down a bit (Electric is kinda common) as well as it being walled by Venu (And I mean WALLED, unlike Ferro which can be killed by Superpower). The things you mention can also be checked by MMawile bar ZardX (Unless it's on the switch) and possibly the Lati twins. Also, Azu needs a turn to set up BD, and while the Band and Vest variants don't, they can't hit as hard and are generally inferior (They do fill certain roles, but for my money, BD is way better.) And finally, Sub MAwile tends to run Focus Punch. So yknow Ferro can't beat that either.
TL:DR
No Azu is not better than MMawile.
(Also Quickbobhero makes a few good points that I didn't, without going into a nonsensical rant like I did)
Just quoting an older post of mine since Pinsir is up for discussion right now.I've brought this up many times before, Pinsir and Talonflame need to drop to A rank. Charizard Y's drop was the nail in the coffin. Like Charizard Y, both require a bit much support and are not as strong as the A+ mons in terms of what they bring to the table. They're pretty good, but not great, and the list should reflect that.
and
-> A rank
There seems to be an issue popping up in the viability rankings that is causing some very specific pokemon to rise and fall between the same ranks continuously and I would like to address the issue of The Fly Spam Cycle. Start of Metagame, Fly Spam Arises (Pinsir to S), Fly spam counters arise (Rotom in A+, Zapdos in A-, MegaMan in B+), Fly Spam Falls (Pinsir to A+,), Defensive Electrics fall (Rotom to A-, Zapdos to B+, MegaMan to B), Fly Spam returns, Electrics rise again so fly spam effectiveness decreases (Rotom to A, Pinsir Proposed A). This will repeat.
Now the issue here is that even though pinsir is being argued for A its effectiveness has not changed at all since it dropped to A+, electrics are just back on the rise. I believe that to remedy this cycle we should give Pinsir and the electrics permanent positions (conclusion reached) until the next major tier shifting (could be soon with the Deos) as Pinsir and Fly Spam well always be as dangerous as it was (+2 Mega Pinsir 2HKO's the entire metagame) and the fly spam counters will always counter fly spam the same as it has before. As so I propose that we keep Pinsir in A+ (The preparedness is just due to the cycle), put Zapdos in A- (It also stops some other major physical threats), MegaMan Stays in B (It should never have risen in the first place). And Rotom Stays in A. I would also like to propose Skarmory to A rank as it not only stops fly spam but it also is an amazing physical wall and support mon (around equivalent to Hippo who is A rank).
Also to TFL: Talonflame on the other hand is a clear A+ as it is THE BEST revenge killer in the game and has forced the metagame to adapt to its presence. If any change is in order for SmogBird then it should be to S-Rank
Now the issue here is that even though pinsir is being argued for A its effectiveness has not changed at all since it dropped to A+, electrics are just back on the rise. I believe that to remedy this cycle we should give Pinsir and the electrics permanent positions (conclusion reached) until the next major tier shifting (could be soon with the Deos) as Pinsir and Fly Spam well always be as dangerous as it was (+2 Mega Pinsir 2HKO's the entire metagame) and the fly spam counters will always counter fly spam the same as it has before. As so I propose that we keep Pinsir in A+ (The preparedness is just due to the cycle), put Zapdos in A- (It also stops some other major physical threats), MegaMan Stays in B (It should never have risen in the first place). And Rotom Stays in A. I would also like to propose Skarmory to A rank as it not only stops fly spam but it also is an amazing physical wall and support mon (around equivalent to Hippo who is A rank).
Also to TFL: Talonflame on the other hand is a clear A+ as it is THE BEST revenge killer in the game and has forced the metagame to adapt to its presence. If any change is in order for SmogBird then it should be to S-Rank
Had quite a long PM discussion with Subject 18 about that topic and in short, they want it to be like that. If something gets more popular it should rise in rank and if it loses on popularity its supposed to go down. Just looking at the overall effectiveness/powerlevel of a pokemon doesnt reflect the meta enough.
Mega Mawile rising to S: Nope- Mega Mawile is just fine in A+. Many Pokémon that it supposedly threatens with its STAB and Sucker Punch can tank it and hit back. Aegislash-Shield, Mega Charizard X, Excadrill, Landorus (both), Garchomp, Talonflame… the list goes on and on about common OU pokes that eat this thing for breakfast. Not to mention that its awful speed (though 100 and lower speed is considered "awful" nowadays) makes it over-reliant on Sucker Punch, and its two weaknesses are highly common on offense. Heck, I can even see Mega Mawile dropping lower than this. Yeah, A is more appropriate.
Tornadus-T rising to B+: Yes, yes, hell yes. A rise for this underrated thing was long overdue. When people think of Tornadus-T nowadays, they think "rain is dead, so he must suck now." Bzzt- wrong answer. Hurricane has such sheer power that it's often worth it to take a chance on it missing. Maybe that's just my opinion, but the damage increase from Air Slash to Hurricane has saved my ass many times, and with Regenerator, missing it can be negligible. Being bulkier than his Incarnate counterpart, I have even run a Bulk Up set with Tornadus-T with some success. While his bulk isn't spectacular, it is passable, meaning he can take advantage of Regenerator even without SR on the field. On the same Bulk Up set I have used Sitrus Berry Acrobatics. Yes, it is gimmicky, but it's a very underrated one at that, and his Speed in OU is nearly unparalleled. I don't know if I can see him on the same level as the offensive behemoths of Kyurem-B, Mamoswine and Manaphy, among others, but I can see a rise to B+. Even so, he is borderline A- in my opinion.
Mega Pinsir dropping to A: I am really on the fence with this one. On one hand, Mega Pinsir sits at a good Speed tier, and it can priority spam nearly as good as Talonflame can. On the other hand, it is very Scarf-prone to those who resist its Aerilate Quick Attack, particularly to Excadrill. Its plethora of weaknesses somewhat offsets its solid bulk, as well. I am unsure as to whether its tendency to be hit SE is enough of a hit on its viability to drop it a rank, as what it lacks in longevity, it makes up for in raw power. Mega Pinsir may not look like a glass cannon with those (Sp.) Defense stats, but it is. I am leaning towards dropping it to A, however, as its many type weaknesses indeed keep it in check, and being 4x weak to SR, it can't bail out of an SE attack as good as it may like to.
Mega Aggron rising to B-: This thing does deserve a boost to B-. Yes, even with Filter, Mega Aggron struggles to take hits from the likes of Heatran, Mega Charizard Y, among other things. But it does not get OHKOed by them under most circumstances, and can smash back with an EQ or Stone Edge. It has the coverage and raw Attack to defeat the Special attackers that try and threaten it, and Filter lets it avoid many OHKOs despite it taking severe damage nonetheless. The fact that it usually has only one shot to defeat one of its threats, from its poor Sp. Defense to its low speed, prevents it from being a top-ranking Pokémon. But the fact that Mega Aggron can retaliate effectively is enough for it to warrant a rise in viability.
Clefable dropping to A: I'd sooner see Clefable rising up to S than seeing it drop to A. This shouldn't even be a discussion- Clefable is a stalling machine. I've run into Unaware Clefable far, far too many times, and I still struggle with dealing with it. After a few Cosmic Power boosts, it becomes damn near impossible to stop. And it has no trouble bailing out of battle- though you do need the right teammate(s) to switch into in order to support Clefable, that is not opportunity cost- that's simply making a good stall core. Dedication is required to defeat it, either by phazing or by the unorthodox Haze. Having one of the two best defensive types in the game doesn't make it any easier, either. The only things keeping Clefable out of S rank are Bisharp and Aegislash, but even then it can tank them once it accumulates enough Cosmic Power boosts. There's no way in hell that this thing is dropping any lower than A+.
On another note, what exactly did Mantine and Arcanine do to warrant being ranked (and for Arcanine, being taken off the blacklist)?
Tornadus-T rising to B+: Yes, yes, hell yes. A rise for this underrated thing was long overdue. When people think of Tornadus-T nowadays, they think "rain is dead, so he must suck now." Bzzt- wrong answer. Hurricane has such sheer power that it's often worth it to take a chance on it missing. Maybe that's just my opinion, but the damage increase from Air Slash to Hurricane has saved my ass many times, and with Regenerator, missing it can be negligible. Being bulkier than his Incarnate counterpart, I have even run a Bulk Up set with Tornadus-T with some success. While his bulk isn't spectacular, it is passable, meaning he can take advantage of Regenerator even without SR on the field. On the same Bulk Up set I have used Sitrus Berry Acrobatics. Yes, it is gimmicky, but it's a very underrated one at that, and his Speed in OU is nearly unparalleled. I don't know if I can see him on the same level as the offensive behemoths of Kyurem-B, Mamoswine and Manaphy, among others, but I can see a rise to B+. Even so, he is borderline A- in my opinion.
Mega Pinsir dropping to A: I am really on the fence with this one. On one hand, Mega Pinsir sits at a good Speed tier, and it can priority spam nearly as good as Talonflame can. On the other hand, it is very Scarf-prone to those who resist its Aerilate Quick Attack, particularly to Excadrill. Its plethora of weaknesses somewhat offsets its solid bulk, as well. I am unsure as to whether its tendency to be hit SE is enough of a hit on its viability to drop it a rank, as what it lacks in longevity, it makes up for in raw power. Mega Pinsir may not look like a glass cannon with those (Sp.) Defense stats, but it is. I am leaning towards dropping it to A, however, as its many type weaknesses indeed keep it in check, and being 4x weak to SR, it can't bail out of an SE attack as good as it may like to.
Mega Aggron rising to B-: This thing does deserve a boost to B-. Yes, even with Filter, Mega Aggron struggles to take hits from the likes of Heatran, Mega Charizard Y, among other things. But it does not get OHKOed by them under most circumstances, and can smash back with an EQ or Stone Edge. It has the coverage and raw Attack to defeat the Special attackers that try and threaten it, and Filter lets it avoid many OHKOs despite it taking severe damage nonetheless. The fact that it usually has only one shot to defeat one of its threats, from its poor Sp. Defense to its low speed, prevents it from being a top-ranking Pokémon. But the fact that Mega Aggron can retaliate effectively is enough for it to warrant a rise in viability.
Clefable dropping to A: I'd sooner see Clefable rising up to S than seeing it drop to A. This shouldn't even be a discussion- Clefable is a stalling machine. I've run into Unaware Clefable far, far too many times, and I still struggle with dealing with it. After a few Cosmic Power boosts, it becomes damn near impossible to stop. And it has no trouble bailing out of battle- though you do need the right teammate(s) to switch into in order to support Clefable, that is not opportunity cost- that's simply making a good stall core. Dedication is required to defeat it, either by phazing or by the unorthodox Haze. Having one of the two best defensive types in the game doesn't make it any easier, either. The only things keeping Clefable out of S rank are Bisharp and Aegislash, but even then it can tank them once it accumulates enough Cosmic Power boosts. There's no way in hell that this thing is dropping any lower than A+.
On another note, what exactly did Mantine and Arcanine do to warrant being ranked (and for Arcanine, being taken off the blacklist)?
Uhhhh no. Mega Mawile is quite a lot better than anything in A. And most things in A+.
Mantine has a microscopic niche as Gyarados except with Defog, less offensive presence and less physical bulk. iunno, I'm not sure it should be ranked.
Arcanine was black listed many months ago, when the meta was much less developed, because someone shat up the thread with horrid arguments of why it should be ranked and wouldn't stop. Recently, someone made some very well reasoned arguments for why it should be ranked: basically, countering the shit out of every single one of Mega Mawile's sets, being able to spread burns and picking off weakened opponents with Extreme Speed is a more important niche than whatever it is that Meloetta does.
Just a question: Why is Aegislash in the "Conclusion Reached" List in the VR thread, but not here? And vice-versa for Mega Charizard Y.
Expanding on that I am puzzled as to why Aegislash is still in S rank, at this stage of the game aegislash is way too predicatble in my opinion and with all the mega charizards around it isn't really a problem to deal with for most teams. Granted it has it's plus sides with its unique typing,ability and stats but I just don't see it as being on par with any of the other S rank pokemon at present. I also have not seen anywhere near as much usage of it, whether that is because of it's predictability or the people I fight not using it.
He's actually pretty versatile I'm surprised someone would say Aegislash is predictable. The move king's shield may be predictable, but what set Aegislash is running is far from predictable. Even when you know the set, Aegislash switches some of his checks by which coverage move he runs. For example on the crumbler set, Aegi has the option of running Iron Head, Sacred Sword, Pursuit and shadow sneak alongside Shadow ball and kings shield. Aegislash is literally the gen 6 OU defining pokemon, and is in the conclusion reached list because unless the metagame drastically changes, Aegislash is securely in S rank for the long haul. A few pages back when people were discussing S+ and S- ranks, ull notice most people saying Aegislash for S+. Not only is it in the top tier, its the best of the best. It's also on 22% of teams..the most used pokemon in OU
Aegislash is S rank because at this point in time it is one of the most viable pokemon and is so easy to fit on a team it's kind of nuts. The predictability issue isn't even valid because even then players ranging from beginners to veterans still have a tough time handling Aegislash due to the various sets it can run. I don't want to go into too much detail considering if it is a conclusion reached mon, but for the most part many OU players know that Aegislash is a threat and that it is on par in versatility to its other S rank pals. Also as far as usage in your case it's the latter, cause Aegislash is used plenty in OU.
Not to mention if you predict a kings shield double predictions exist and taking a shadow ball to the face isn't fun.
Yeah, but I asked why it's not in the Conclusion Reached list in this thread, and only in the VR thread?
And then some idiot replied saying that Aegislash should move down from S rank, which is who the quoted post was responding to.
Predictable it may be... but it's also... I dunno, PERFECT...
Like, there's barely any reason to NOT use Aegislash. It's the best offensive steel type. It's the best defensive steel type. It's the best mon of the best offensive type in the game (Ghost). It's got a huge diversity of effective main stream sets, and gimmick sets that are so threatening you could hardly call them gimmicks.
If Aegislash doesn't deserve S, nothing does.
It also has 4 very nasty weaknesses, a severe case of 4MSS since it can rarely afford to run both STABs and Sacred Sword, its mindgames with Stance Change can horribly backfire, it's extremely vulnerable to WoW and status moves in general, anything with Foul Play walks all over, as a spinblocker it's shaky since LO Excadrill OHKO's with EQ while in Shield Forme and it's really really slow.
It's a good pokemon, but "perfect" is an exaggeration.
Many players have learned to play around Aegislash by now and it can no longer considered as threatening as the other S-rank pokemon if you ask me.
Perhaps it's time to admit it's A+ rank material at best.
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