Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

Status
Not open for further replies.
It also has 4 very nasty weaknesses,

And yet survives the majority of super effective hits, being OHKO'd only by item boosted, fully invested STAB attacks from the strongest attackers. (you need at least LO Mamoswine or Excadrill to one-shot this thing)

Meanwhile, it has the offensive power and options to threaten basically everything.

a severe case of 4MSS since it can rarely afford to run both STABs and Sacred Sword,

And yet Ghost coverage and its excellent offensive/defensive stats (for pivoting) mean that it's always a big threat, and relevant to almost every game regardless of set. Aegislash + Shadow Ball is a huge asset in every game, and if you manage to get extra mileage off its other attacks and item, that's just icing on the cake imo.

its mindgames with Stance Change can horribly backfire,

Shouldn't you be questioning that it's ridiculous that Stance Change/King's Shield gives it that "extra chance" to bs its way through whatever situation, when any other Pokemon would have to consider fleeing or sac'ing itself when faced against an enemy with a natural advantage?

In fact, Aegislash handles that situation perfectly fine as a Pokemon even without stance change-- it can throw a wrench in just about any set-up sweeper's game just by attacking, or switch out (and back into its defensive form). Being able to pull off BS antics with King's Shield is just MORE icing on the cake.

it's extremely vulnerable to WoW and status moves in general,
-@ Burn: Most Spammable/best attack is Shadow Ball
-@ Paralysis: Wants to be slower often to abuse Stance Change
-@ Poison: Immune to Poison
-@ Sleep: Well, it's sleep...
Just how is this thing more vulnerable to status than the average? Sure burning it means you now know you can throw Chansey in front of it now (if you have a Chansey at hand) and that it'll be losing more health every time it King's Shields, but Aegi's still not nearly as screwed as most physical attackers would be.

Hey, I almost always lol when I smash Rotom with an extra Shadow Ball as it burns my Shadow Ball / Flash Cannon / HP Ice / King's Shield Aegi (who is one of my absolute favorite sets with Shuca Berry to one-shot Lando-I/T/Glisc/Garchomp/etc.).

anything with Foul Play walks all over,
Because there are so many of those, and because it does SO much damage to the shield forme. What are you talking about?

as a spinblocker it's shaky since LO Excadrill OHKO's with EQ while in Shield Forme and it's really really slow.
Called air balloon... Besides, you say Aegi is shaky as a spin-blocker against Excadrill, but you're failing to mention that Exca has a good match up against literally EVERY spin blocker relevant to OU besides Sableye (and Sableye won't like an EQ to the face on the switch-in either!)

It's a good pokemon, but "perfect" is an exaggeration.
Many players have learned to play around Aegislash by now and it can no longer considered as threatening as the other S-rank pokemon if you ask me.
Perhaps it's time to admit it's A+ rank material at best.

Tell me the last time where you were using Aegislash and it was NOT relevant.
Tell me the last time where Aegislash did not AT LEAST cover the value of its move slot
When was the last time you had a battle where Aegislash performed POORLY
Did you ever have a battle where Aegislash was NOT a good pick?
When were you ever in a battle situation where Aegislash could NOT contribute?

Unless you're trying to baton pass to Aegislash (idiocy...) I've never seen Aegislash ranked poorly in my mind addressing any of these questions in any battle.

If that's not being as pretty damn close to perfect, I don't know what is.
 
It also has 4 very nasty weaknesses, a severe case of 4MSS since it can rarely afford to run both STABs and Sacred Sword, its mindgames with Stance Change can horribly backfire, it's extremely vulnerable to WoW and status moves in general, anything with Foul Play walks all over, as a spinblocker it's shaky since LO Excadrill OHKO's with EQ while in Shield Forme and it's really really slow.
It's a good pokemon, but "perfect" is an exaggeration.
Many players have learned to play around Aegislash by now and it can no longer considered as threatening as the other S-rank pokemon if you ask me.
Perhaps it's time to admit it's A+ rank material at best.
Flash Cannon is usually not added to the moveset because Steel-type moves have bad coverage, even if it lets Aegislash take on CM Clefable, Chesnaught, and I guess Sylveon, but the latter two aren't very popular, and Clefable is taken care of by teammates. Air Balloon Aegislash is still fairly common iirc, and is actually a great check to Excadrill of all kinds. People can play around Aegislash, but its multiple sets can really mess people up bigtime. There's obviously the all-out attacker set, but there's also the SD and Sub/Toxic sets that can easily screw over would-be counters. It's true that people can adapt to Aegislash, but just remember that Aegislash can do the same, and has been for some time now. What makes a Pokemon S-rank isn't just how many things they beat, but how unpredictable they can be, as well as how well they can adapt to changes that they themselves caused.
 
Is team building/sinergy accounted for ranking viability in a pokémon? While MMawile is crazy strong i aways feel it limits a lot of options in teambuilding since its typing weaknesses can overlap with guys like Aegislash, Bisharp and Excadrill.
 
Tbh dropping Aegislash to A+ is not that absurd of a claim and I can definitely see the reasons behind it. For one, it has an harder time against offense that one could belive, with Charizard, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Landorus, Keldeo, Mamoswine, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Diggersby, Entei and specially oriented swift swimmers all being common, and massive use of Ground, Dark and Fire for coverage in general, not to mention the popularity on stall of its defensive archenemies such as Hippowdon, Gliscor, Heatran and Amoonguss. It's definitely difficult to switch into this fucker, but once you get something threatening against it, such as with slow volturn, double switches, smart predicts or simply revengekill, it will be pretty threatened. Burn is definitely a status that Aegislash should fear even when fully special(lol almost no one uses it this way) because it greatly hampers its lifespan. However, I think it still deserves S rank because of its absurd bulk and power, great amount of versatility(though I doubt new sets will be discovered in the future; every option in its movepool has been examinated, even odd ones like Destiny Bond, Head Smash or Substitute) and huge work against and inside stall, HO and balance, as it still checks/counters threatening mons such as post-sleep Breloom, Venusaur-Mega, non-Knock Off Mawile.Mega, non-Fire Blast Clefable, the Eons, Deoxys-Speed, Azumarill, Chansey, Medicham-Mega and many others. However, it's more of S - material than S +, if these ranks were still a thing, because it's flaws, while fews, are easier to exploit than those of, say, Charizard-X.
 
If Aegislash drops to A+ we can just remove the S ranks all together because if he isnt S rank worthy, nothing is. He is the best mon in the game right now and basicly a league of its own, there is nothing else sporting that level of offensive and defensive power combined with incredible versatelity. No matter the set, he can come in on a multitude of common pokes without caring much about their attacks and the opponent will pay dearly every time Aegi comes in because Shadowball alone deals a shitload of damage to almost everything and the few things that can take it are nailed by coverage moves.
 
^Compared to other S-ranked, really only X-zard can try to hold a candle to Aegislash. Deo-S and Deo-D are good support but neither really both have the offensive and defensive capabilities of Aegislash. Landorus, as hard as it is to switch in to, does have switch ins in the form of specially bulky flying types like Mandibuzz, Dragonite, Gyarados, Tornadus-T, and Mega Aerodactyl. It also does not have Aegislash's bulk. Thundurus, even frailer.

For one, it has an harder time against offense that one could belive, with Charizard, Excadrill, Bisharp, Garchomp, Landorus, Keldeo, Mamoswine, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Diggersby, Entei and specially oriented swift swimmers all being common, and massive use of Ground, Dark and Fire for coverage in general, not to mention the popularity on stall of its defensive archenemies such as Hippowdon, Gliscor, Heatran and Amoonguss.

X-zard, at the very least, can't switch in to quite a lot of the things you mentioned and then some. Something being able to get revenge killed is not the greatest argument against something, if it was as hard to RK Aegislash as it is to switch in to it'd have been booted to ubers already.

Also Shuca Berry dicks with like half those mons. No seriously. Shuca Berry and Colbur Berry. You gotta try it.
 
Aegislash isn't better than the other S-rank mons lol, I don't know how anyone can even claim this.
Deoxys-D and -S are being suspected for starters, so they're automatically more worthy of S rank than Aegislash can ever dream.
Landorus-I is an absurdly powerful and versatile wallbreaker, sweeper or both rolled into one and after the Deo's are banned you can bet everyone will have their eyes on it.
Thundurus-I stops almost every sweeper in its tracks, while being more than capable of sweeping on its own. Taunt also screws over stall mons who otherwise would give it issues.
Finally Charizard X is arguably tied with Aegislash with the worst S-rank, but the mindgames it plays with its mega evolutions don't involve cutting its defenses to Deoxys-N levels after it attacks, it's much faster and its typing is arguably more useful in the current metagame.

Aegi's issues have already been addressed, with Stance Change being the worst offender. If you have ESP and can predict 100% of the time then, yes, Aegislash is a 720 BST pokemon with 150 offenses and defenses. But assuming you're facing an equally skilled player, Stance Change "mindgames" boil down to glorified 50/50 guesses, something that is usually looked down upon high level competitive play (hence as you get higher on the ladder the SubToxic set becomes more and more common, because it's the safest one).
 
People are seriously discussing Aegislash's placement ?_?

Aegisalsh is not dropping to A+ anytime soon lol. Mostly because it's amazing at more things than any other Pokemon in the game right now. Brilliant pivot, excellent nuke, fantastic wall, great staller, best spinblocker, exceptional tank... Literally the only thing it doesn't do very well is sweep, which is funny because that's the first thing we tried to do with it. Let's end this topic before it overshadows more important stuff like the Mawile discussion that's been going on.

On another note, I agree with Clefable dropping. Yes, it is a great win condition thanks to its CM set and a good cleric too, but it really doesn't fit in the same rank as metagame-defining threats such as Keldeo, Mega-Venusaur, and Mega-Scizor, which pretty much every team needs an answer to. I actually like to compare it to the latter, their CM and bulky SD sets specifically, since they're both bulky boosting win conditions that require quite a bit of support and can potentially be really threatening. Clefable does have a few advantages (immunity to the effects of burn, ability to beat Stall, and the fact that it can muscle through a lot of its usual counters come to mind), but its lack of speed and priority on its main STAB, lesser initial bulk, and the fact that it requires more turns to boost make it a lot easier to revenge kill and phaze out IMO. Clefable can also use considerably fewer Pokemon as setup fodder, and although it can threaten a lot of its switch-ins with an additional coverage move much like Scizor does with Superpower, it absolutely needs recovery which Scizor can actually forfeit for a more offensive set. Therefore, Clefable is forced to lose out on general coverage just to beat its checks. As a cleric, it suffers competition for the far bulkier Chansey and Sylveon who packs more of an offensive presence. It's still very good obviously, and is backed up by 2 of the best abilities in the game, but a combination of its lacklustre stats and competition from other Pokemon make it more worthy of A rank in my mind.
 
Last edited:
IDK about clef dropping. It sweeps teams with ease if they do'nt cary a check, preferably a counter. It just runs through bulkier slower teams and given the chance to set up on offence, gg. Its defensive typing is insanely good, weak only to poison and steel, two rare offensive typings in OU. Its an amazing pokemon, yes its stats are somewhat lackluster, but the fact that it sweeps teams with ease, also provides team support in things like stealth rock, heal bell or wish and has an amazing defesive typing should really be considered before dropping it.

Also, this is why I think mega mawile should move to S. Mega mawile is seriously one of the very most influential pokemon in OU. It has an amazing defensive and offensive typing, the best attack stat in the game and good bulk for an offensive pokemon. It can get around its counters like tran with sub punch, and beat mega venu w/ iron head. It can switch into quite a lot of offensive pokemon, such as the lati's, non band azum (intimidate), brave bird locked talonflame, tyranitar, terrakion and deo s etc. This might seem like a small number of pokemon, but with 1 free switch and the chance to sd or sub, half a team is being layed to waste. Its sheer presence and meta defining force, which comes from its uber like attack stat, amazing offensive and defensive typing, the ability to crush stall and offence and its decent movepool make it comparable to pokemon such as landorus and thundy. Move mega mawile to S IMO
 
I would like to nominate non-Mega Charizard for D/C- Rank.

Overall Pro and Cons of BaseZard over both MegaZards
Pros

  • Can hold items (since all MegaZards are as fast as BaseZard, it can easielly outspeed threats without wasting a turn to boost its speed)
  • Opponent has to indicate which Mega you might use forcing him to play more carefully giving you more room at some point.
  • Nuke under the Sun
Cons
  • Less bulk
  • Less mixed offensive capabilities
  • Relying on Sun to do significant damage right of the back
  • Weaker to Water
Pre-Mega usability

When the battle starts, your opponent does not know right of the back which MegaZard you are using allowing the Zard player to hide MegaZard's form until a centain match-up is created.
In other words, BaseZard can act as a lure and reveal its true form whenever it wants to.

Here a few examples that come to mind:

Mind Games with Dragon Dance
BaseZard uses Dragon Dance.
There are usually 2 possibilities what the opposing player is thinking:
a) it is MegaZard X
b) Ha, a noob is using a non-Mega physical Charizard
At this point, revealing Dragon Dance mixed MegaZardY can caught the opposing player completely off guard.
MegaZardY is an excellent wallbreaker and when this thing gets to lure out centain things that is not called Chansey, for example Swagsire, it might be obliterate by an unexpected Solar Beam.
A reminder, all Zards have base 100 speed so no speed advantage is lost before or after Mega Evolting.

MegaZard X's Type Management (Fire/Flying or Fire/Dragon?)
There are some situations when people keep X from Mega Evolting. A good example would be a match up between BaseZard (MegaZard X in disguise) and MegaZard Y.
Dragon Dancing with BaseZard is much safer than just go Mega and die to an obvious Dragon Pulse from MegaZard Y. After 1 Dragon Dance, BaseZard can turn into MegaZardX and go for a possible sweep.

Sun Viability

Weather has become less relevant to the Metagame but still has a niche for being used nontheless thanks to Pokemon that make more accessable like Ninetails, Deoxys and Uxie as well as other Pokemon that take great advantage through this playstyle like Venusaur.

Charizard@ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs/CharizarditeY
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 SpD / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Grass / Solar Beam

Not really the best set but it should show the centain viability of BaseZard under the sun. Without Choice Specs, the Damage that BaseZard is dealing is slidly more powerful than MegaZardY's depending if it is STAB or not, because non-STAB Dragon Pulse does significantly more from BaseZard than from MegaZardY (like the following calculations are indicading).

STAB
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 385-454 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 424-499 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Non-STAB
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 89-105 (22 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 78-92 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 85-101 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Overall, as pure Non-Mega pokemon, Charizard needs a huge amount of support like getting ride of Stealth Rocks and the Sun being set up. -> D Rank
However, as a Mega Pokemon in disguise, Charizard can still create match-ups in which it can get ride of key members from opposing teams. -> C- Rank
 
Aegislash isn't better than the other S-rank mons lol, I don't know how anyone can even claim this.
Deoxys-D and -S are being suspected for starters, so they're automatically more worthy of S rank than Aegislash can ever dream.
Landorus-I is an absurdly powerful and versatile wallbreaker, sweeper or both rolled into one and after the Deo's are banned you can bet everyone will have their eyes on it.
Thundurus-I stops almost every sweeper in its tracks, while being more than capable of sweeping on its own. Taunt also screws over stall mons who otherwise would give it issues.
Finally Charizard X is arguably tied with Aegislash with the worst S-rank, but the mindgames it plays with its mega evolutions don't involve cutting its defenses to Deoxys-N levels after it attacks, it's much faster and its typing is arguably more useful in the current metagame.

Aegi's issues have already been addressed, with Stance Change being the worst offender. If you have ESP and can predict 100% of the time then, yes, Aegislash is a 720 BST pokemon with 150 offenses and defenses. But assuming you're facing an equally skilled player, Stance Change "mindgames" boil down to glorified 50/50 guesses, something that is usually looked down upon high level competitive play (hence as you get higher on the ladder the SubToxic set becomes more and more common, because it's the safest one).

"Charizard X and Aegislash the worst S rank pokemon." Are we playing the same game? Aegislash and Charizard X are the best pokemon in the game. The deos may be getting suspected, but that's because of their support abilities, not because of how powerful they are. Aegislash is the most versatile pokemon in the game; it can run a crumbler set, a subtoxic set (which deals with all of the counters to the crumbler set), a sub set, a speedy set, a swords dance set, even a weakness policy automonize set to sweep! It is also one of the most powerful, as ghost is only resisted by dark and normal, and is extremely bulky with 60/150/150 defenses. The deos may be getting suspected, but only because of their ability to lay down hazards. Aegislash is a more powerful and better pokemon than them. You also act like everytime aegi kings shields that the opponent will get a free swords dance or something then kill aegi. For a start, it doesn't even need kings shield to function effectively, and these 50/50 situations you describe as needing ESP to avoid don't even happen that often.

Charizard X is also amazing and the only pokemon that comes close to aegislash in terms of viability. It has about the same power level as landorus, but with dragon dance (or sd+tailwind). Azumarill, one of the supposedly best checks on offensive teams takes like 40% from flare blitz. This thing is so hard to counter; several pokemon can mostly counter (by mostly I mean only barely) but if it has outrage you're fucked. In fact, 252/252+ rhyperior, which is the best counter, takes (iirc) 90% min from +2 outrage(swords dance tailwind set), and can't even kill it in return. Bulky sets can setup on tons of things, even things with decent attack power like rotom-w. This isn't even accounting for the fact that it can run a bulky wisp set on stall. Anyway, this is a stupid discussion. There is no way the 2 best pokemon in the game are ever moving down to A+, EVER.
 
stuff about charizard

Charizard requires such massive support, huge support is underselling it. For example, for Solar Power to be active you need Sun support, where do you get that? Sun is practically dead bar itself's Mega Evolution. The fact that it needs Stealth Rock support, Pursuit support, Defog support, and Sun support leads me to believe it's way more trouble than it is worth. It's outclassed immensely by itself, of all things. So yeah, I don't think Charizard should be ranked except for its megas.
 
Called air balloon... Besides, you say Aegi is shaky as a spin-blocker against Excadrill, but you're failing to mention that Exca has a good match up against literally EVERY spin blocker relevant to OU besides Sableye (and Sableye won't like an EQ to the face on the switch-in either!)

but...but... muh gourgeist-small ;__;

Also dropping aegislash hello you guys have definitely run out of ideas or some shit. It's too versatile, too strong, too bulky, and its stabs are too good for it to be anywhere other than s rank. It's downright amazing jesus how can people seriously advocate for this thing to drop.
 
Doing a pseudo double post to say that Aegislash's ranking has been decided and it will stay S rank (like forever) so I, as well as others, would appreciate it if you all could stop debating its rank. Thank you.

Then put it under "conclusion reached". Since its placement was never up for debate, no matter how many flaws were brought up, this was a waste of time for everyone.
 
Then put it under "conclusion reached". Since its placement was never up for debate, no matter how many flaws were brought up, this was a waste of time for everyone.
I think the reason it wan't under conclusion reached before was because they THOUGHT people posting in this thread had enough knowledge of the metagame to know that moving it down was the stupidest idea ever brought up in this thread, bar ranking normal Charizard. Then again, as Heliolisk and Darmanitan told us, some people posting in this thread lack any knowledge of the metagame at all.
 
Then put it under "conclusion reached". Since its placement was never up for debate, no matter how many flaws were brought up, this was a waste of time for everyone.
alexwolf can and probably will once he logs on, its placement was never up for debate because everyone unanimously said it deserved S rank. There was no opposition until recently and the opposition is weak at best. The main argument from everyone disagreeing was its predictability but the sheer fact that you force multiple 50/50s just by being on the team is enough to at least be A+ rank. Then you add on its number of sets, its ability to get past even its best counters, the fact that it can virtually have 150 in both offenses and defenses, a fantastic new move and this thing is an unstoppable force. Yes it can be killed, but then again everything can. Aegislash is a very potent threat and is literally the best Pokémon in the OU meta game. To deny it S rank is to do this viability rankings a disservice and to essentially tell new players that something like Landorus or Thundurus is better than Aegislash (which is not even remotely close to true).
 
I would Like to nominate Breloom for the rank A. I think breloom can offer a huge amount to most teams, The 100% accuracy spore pretty much eliminates one enemy Pokemon by itself. It's physical attacks almost seem designed for it's ability Technician. Bullet seed which is insanely strong and can pretty much be spammed on anything sleeping and probably result in a kill after 2 turns. Mach punch is great at revenge killing or simply picking of weaker pokemon. Then there is Sword dance or Rock tomb both of which help immensely depending on situation, rock tomb helping fix brelooms speed problem and Sword dance can be used whilst opponent are sleeping to essentially sleep with mach punch after 2 boosts. Breloom is also a very good lead, thanks to spore it can pretty much deal with Ninjask,Scollipede and Smeargle which are all popular leads without too much hassle. Mach punch can also ohko lead greninja's.
Cons for Breloom is it relies on it's sash because of it's mediocre speed, especially as a lead to guarantee spore. It also does't fair well against deoxies or ferrothorn who are also popular leads.
Because of it's somewhat unique typing in OU it can handle a variety of threats most other pokemon couldn't as easily such as Rotom-Wash,Azumarill,Quagsire and Bisharp. It can also outspeed Aegislash and abuse sleep to remove it as a threat.
To summarize, Breloom can offer invaluable team support thanks to Spore, it can revenge kill thanks to mach punch and it can Cripple faster and frail pokemon given the right opportunity with Rock tomb and force switches. It can also Deal with a decent array of other leads in particular the Baton pass ones.It requires some team support if not used as a lead to ensure the focus sash isn't broken. It cant lead against ferrothorn or deoxies as ferrothorn is immune to spore and resists/takes low damage from all 3 moves. Deoxies can Taunt and decline your use of spore due to it being faster.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure why dropping Aegislash was brought up to begin with but it's not moving one bit, besides maybe to ubers, but that's not something that I won't talk about here. Nog has basically covered the main points as to why it shouldn't be moving, so refer to his post.

Honestly, the reason that it's was never added to the "conclusion reached" section is because there is legitimately no one who would tell you that Aegislash isn't S-rank and the best Pokemon in the tier followed by Thundurus. It's basically never been disputed and it's considered common knowledge at this point. The thing people don't really account for isn't that it's can't be killed, because it can be killed, but how does the meta has a whole deals with it? How has it adapted to it? What is it's influence in the meta? Answer those and you'll see why it's placed where it is and why many think it should be banned.

As for adding it to the "conclusion reached" section, I can add it in now but I personally don't really think its needed. So I'll leave that call up to alexwolf to make.
 
Last edited:
I would like to nominate non-Mega Charizard for D/C- Rank.

Overall Pro and Cons of BaseZard over both MegaZards
Pros

  • Can hold items (since all MegaZards are as fast as BaseZard, it can easielly outspeed threats without wasting a turn to boost its speed)
  • Opponent has to indicate which Mega you might use forcing him to play more carefully giving you more room at some point.
  • Nuke under the Sun
Cons
  • Less bulk
  • Less mixed offensive capabilities
  • Relying on Sun to do significant damage right of the back
  • Weaker to Water
Pre-Mega usability

When the battle starts, your opponent does not know right of the back which MegaZard you are using allowing the Zard player to hide MegaZard's form until a centain match-up is created.
In other words, BaseZard can act as a lure and reveal its true form whenever it wants to.

Here a few examples that come to mind:

Mind Games with Dragon Dance
BaseZard uses Dragon Dance.
There are usually 2 possibilities what the opposing player is thinking:
a) it is MegaZard X
b) Ha, a noob is using a non-Mega physical Charizard
At this point, revealing Dragon Dance mixed MegaZardY can caught the opposing player completely off guard.
MegaZardY is an excellent wallbreaker and when this thing gets to lure out centain things that is not called Chansey, for example Swagsire, it might be obliterate by an unexpected Solar Beam.
A reminder, all Zards have base 100 speed so no speed advantage is lost before or after Mega Evolting.

MegaZard X's Type Management (Fire/Flying or Fire/Dragon?)
There are some situations when people keep X from Mega Evolting. A good example would be a match up between BaseZard (MegaZard X in disguise) and MegaZard Y.
Dragon Dancing with BaseZard is much safer than just go Mega and die to an obvious Dragon Pulse from MegaZard Y. After 1 Dragon Dance, BaseZard can turn into MegaZardX and go for a possible sweep.

Sun Viability

Weather has become less relevant to the Metagame but still has a niche for being used nontheless thanks to Pokemon that make more accessable like Ninetails, Deoxys and Uxie as well as other Pokemon that take great advantage through this playstyle like Venusaur.

Charizard@ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs/CharizarditeY
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 4 SpD / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Grass / Solar Beam

Not really the best set but it should show the centain viability of BaseZard under the sun. Without Choice Specs, the Damage that BaseZard is dealing is slidly more powerful than MegaZardY's depending if it is STAB or not, because non-STAB Dragon Pulse does significantly more from BaseZard than from MegaZardY (like the following calculations are indicading).

STAB
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 385-454 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 424-499 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 249-294 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Non-STAB
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 89-105 (22 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 78-92 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 85-101 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Overall, as pure Non-Mega pokemon, Charizard needs a huge amount of support like getting ride of Stealth Rocks and the Sun being set up. -> D Rank
However, as a Mega Pokemon in disguise, Charizard can still create match-ups in which it can get ride of key members from opposing teams. -> C- Rank

I actually tried using normal Charizard in OU just for fun but its a gimmick at best. Using it in the sun is a terrible idea because you cant use zard y and waiting to mega evolve doesnt count. Anyways, I used a choice scarf and paired it with Mega Tyranitar which works out since Tyranitar is viable without a mega so it appeared as if charizard was my mega. I caught a few people off guard because they werent expecting a dragon dancing mega tyranitar or a charizard that was faster than their scarf excadrill, but outside of the suprise factor it wasnt worth it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top