Why wouldn't we just blacklist Chaizard and drop it then? There is no point in discussing it at all and if it is unlisted then that implies it either has no viability or such a small shred it isn't even worth putting in D rank.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
We're not adding regular Charizard to the rankings.
Aegislash is not moving out of S anytime soon. Well, I see Aegislash being out of the S rank... because I see going to U rank, alongside things like Mega Lucario and Genesect.
Why? Because I think that...
-Has a myriad of sets, all of them with different checks or very different counters (some of them doesn't have that thing).
-Can use atttacks from both sides oft he spectrum very effectively. Can use mixed sets with little drawbacks, compared to other mixed attackers, who has to sacrifice power in one end of the spectrum AND lose one of the defenses.
-It love being slower than the rest of the team. Many Pokemon (including many walls/tanks) wants to outspeed key threats and they have Speed EVs. On the other hand, Aegislash loves being slower, because it can tank almost any attack (even SE ones) and because his ability, thing that only Gyro Ball users (in OU, mainly Ferrothorn) and Trick Room teams can said about that.
Resist Staleth Rocks. We know how important is this move; compared to other S rank, who are neutral (Landorus) or weak 8thundurus, MCharizard-X) they should not be worried if some rocks are on the field.
-King's Shield. Not only changes forms, but if during the use of this move, a contact move hits it, his attack will be halved. With includes (I consider the relevant ones to a competitive team): All physical Fire Attacks in OU, All Physical Water attacks, All the physical Electric attacks, Many of the Grass Attacks, Ice Punch, Ice Shard, Almost any Fighting attack, Poison Jab, All the Physical Flying asttacks, all of physcal Psychic attacks, almost all of the physical Buig attacks, Head Smash, all the Ghost physical attacks, all the Dragon physical attacks, almost the Dark physiucal attacks, almost all the Steel attacks and Play Rough. This is a lot of attacks, and any physical user at -2. This causes a centralization around Bisharp, Tyranitar, Sucker Punch users and EQ users.
I think that compared to other users, they are better.
-Mega Charizard X: almost always has Dragon Dance, we know it will have physical STABs, special sets are rare and are generally used at lure certain opponents (in particular and for surprise, Ferrothorn). Of course, it's a great S rank pokemon. Also, has two weakness (that unlike it, can defeat it easily), has an insane weakness to SR.
-Thundurus: First, it's rather frail. Second, if the opponent doesn't Defog, a mixed or physical set is considered a bit inferior. Third, Prankster is the superior ability in general, and the one it fits in almost any type of team. Fourth, Has a weakness to SR.
-Landorus. One of the pokemon helped by Aegislash, because Aegislash destroys the set of "Levitating/Flying Psychic types" that walls Landorus to no end (specially Cresselia). Has a very predictable sert (we know (unless some rare Sand Force set) 2 of the moves of Landorus and you can guess the third one). And it's rather frail, as has two common weakness, Water and Ice (the latter is a 4x weakness), which great users like Mamoswine, Weavile, Greninja, Keldeo, Azumarill, Kingdra, etc.
About non-Mega Charizard, E rank at best. In other words, please use a Mega. (The X is the better, but the Y is very good).
Why? Because I think that...
-Has a myriad of sets, all of them with different checks or very different counters (some of them doesn't have that thing).
-Can use atttacks from both sides oft he spectrum very effectively. Can use mixed sets with little drawbacks, compared to other mixed attackers, who has to sacrifice power in one end of the spectrum AND lose one of the defenses.
-It love being slower than the rest of the team. Many Pokemon (including many walls/tanks) wants to outspeed key threats and they have Speed EVs. On the other hand, Aegislash loves being slower, because it can tank almost any attack (even SE ones) and because his ability, thing that only Gyro Ball users (in OU, mainly Ferrothorn) and Trick Room teams can said about that.
Resist Staleth Rocks. We know how important is this move; compared to other S rank, who are neutral (Landorus) or weak 8thundurus, MCharizard-X) they should not be worried if some rocks are on the field.
-King's Shield. Not only changes forms, but if during the use of this move, a contact move hits it, his attack will be halved. With includes (I consider the relevant ones to a competitive team): All physical Fire Attacks in OU, All Physical Water attacks, All the physical Electric attacks, Many of the Grass Attacks, Ice Punch, Ice Shard, Almost any Fighting attack, Poison Jab, All the Physical Flying asttacks, all of physcal Psychic attacks, almost all of the physical Buig attacks, Head Smash, all the Ghost physical attacks, all the Dragon physical attacks, almost the Dark physiucal attacks, almost all the Steel attacks and Play Rough. This is a lot of attacks, and any physical user at -2. This causes a centralization around Bisharp, Tyranitar, Sucker Punch users and EQ users.
I think that compared to other users, they are better.
-Mega Charizard X: almost always has Dragon Dance, we know it will have physical STABs, special sets are rare and are generally used at lure certain opponents (in particular and for surprise, Ferrothorn). Of course, it's a great S rank pokemon. Also, has two weakness (that unlike it, can defeat it easily), has an insane weakness to SR.
-Thundurus: First, it's rather frail. Second, if the opponent doesn't Defog, a mixed or physical set is considered a bit inferior. Third, Prankster is the superior ability in general, and the one it fits in almost any type of team. Fourth, Has a weakness to SR.
-Landorus. One of the pokemon helped by Aegislash, because Aegislash destroys the set of "Levitating/Flying Psychic types" that walls Landorus to no end (specially Cresselia). Has a very predictable sert (we know (unless some rare Sand Force set) 2 of the moves of Landorus and you can guess the third one). And it's rather frail, as has two common weakness, Water and Ice (the latter is a 4x weakness), which great users like Mamoswine, Weavile, Greninja, Keldeo, Azumarill, Kingdra, etc.
About non-Mega Charizard, E rank at best. In other words, please use a Mega. (The X is the better, but the Y is very good).
I don't see Aegislash's position changing any time soon, whether it's bumped down to A+ or bumped up to Ubers instead. It's undoubtedly a powerful Pokemon, but also harbors some glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by pretty much any competitive team. For every aspect that makes it powerful, from its great offensive and defensive typing and stat mixture to the versatility and unpredictability to play as more roles than most other Pokemon, it has just as many flaws that keep it in check, such as a crippling weakness to common Fire-, Ground- and Dark-type attacking moves, a lack of reliable recovery, no access to Will-o-Wisp unlike many other popular Ghost-type Pokemon, and so on.
As for Charizard-X, it's without any doubt that he's one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, if not the strongest, so dropping him to anything below S rank seems silly to me. Base Charizard without a Mega Evolution stone, however... doesn't really warrant much discussion.
As for Charizard-X, it's without any doubt that he's one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, if not the strongest, so dropping him to anything below S rank seems silly to me. Base Charizard without a Mega Evolution stone, however... doesn't really warrant much discussion.
How can you be so wrong? Or at least really, really ignorant of how tiering works. Suspect testing and viability are two totally different issues. Suspects are picked because they have an unbalancing affect on the meta-- often by excelling in one dimension or another to the degree that they force certain situations (and this can be accomplished by being over-powered). Deoxys-S's Speed does this, as does Deo-D's ridiculous bulk and movepool. Torn-T in rain from Politoed was an A+ threat in BW because of its inconsistency, but it was banned because its Hurricanes in rain were unbalancing. While these are all examples of Pokemon that deserve suspecting for having potential unbalancing aspects of the game...
...that definitely does NOT automatically make them the best Pokemon. Being a meta problem and being good are not the same measure.
Anyway, discussion on Aegislash is over it seems.
What is "on topic"? I thought we were allowed to discuss anything we wanted to and that the meta is constantly changing so what is S rank today may not necessarily be S rank next week. While I do think Aegislash is S rank material, I don't think it is untouchable to the point where we need to shut down discussion on it. There has been a lot of "lol ur stupid for thinking Aegi isn't S rank" instead of detailed arguments why Aegi's many strengths more than make up for its flaws which include its low speed and weaknesses to Dark, Ghost, Fire, and Ground types. At some point the meta may shift to make Aegi less viable and it's not like Aegi is god tier. About 80% of players have some reason for not having Aegislash on their team, so it is not as perfect as some people have made it out to be. But yeah, it is solid S rank material at the moment.
Just because you are allowed to talk about anything doesn't mean i can't put some focus on the conversation. And if you need some good reasons as to why Aegislash shouldn't drop, look at the past pages, there are plenty. When the metagame shifts and makes Aegislash not a clear S rank threat anymore, i and other knowledgeable people will know it don't worry.
Things have been taken off conclusion reached before- Aegis is only there for the time being, should the meta shift significantly then discussion will be welcomed. It's conclusion reached because, as this time, it is agreed by the vast majority that Aegis is rock solid S and as such discussion is pointless. You can see all those arguments for it being S in the past few pages- versatility, power, typing, we all know this. No new major arguments were brought up for Aegis falling (everything stated was either already known and accounted for in it's S ranking, or fallacious) and all the suggestion did was throw off real discussion for several pages.
Talk about Breloom. I think Breloom should be made from A- to A. Breloom is a great Pokemon with a 100% chance to make a Pokemon go to sleep (unless grass switch in, etc.) There are many sets that are viable with Breloom (although some are more viable than others) which make Breloom a constant threat to anybody's team. From sub-focus punch (not used that much if used at all), to a Swords Dance Breloom, Breloom can influence a game just with Spore.
I think we were talking about Mega Mawile and Clefable mostly before the Aegislash shit.
About Mega Mawile, I think that A+ is perfect for it. My main issue with it moving up is that it relies heavily on Sucker Punch to deal with anything fast than it and its Subs are easy to break due to its "meh" bulk and Fire and Ground being extremely widespread attacking types. It's also not uncounterable; Rotom-W(which in like #2 in usage last I checked actually #7/#22) can switch in immediately and either break the Sub it sets up or straight up burn it, since it survives Focus Punch/Play Rough even after Rocks. It takes a shit ton of damage, but it still does the job. Against offensive teams without Rotom-W, the best Mawile can do it get in one kill before losing its Sub.
About Mega Mawile, I think that A+ is perfect for it. My main issue with it moving up is that it relies heavily on Sucker Punch to deal with anything fast than it and its Subs are easy to break due to its "meh" bulk and Fire and Ground being extremely widespread attacking types. It's also not uncounterable; Rotom-W
Last edited:
Bit of a nitpick but Rotom-W is #7 in 1695 stats, and #22 in 1825 stats.
My bad, but it's still common enough to be a problem.
Another thing to consider is that Lando, the closest competition for Mawile, is way better against Offensive teams thanks to its base Speed of 101, access to Rock Polish, and U-turn allowing it to fuck over switch-ins like the Latis and checkmate them with a Scarfed T-Tar or something.
I think regarding base Charizard not getting ranked is perfectly fine, but rather than just be like "Ohhh it sucks don't use it", there needs to be proper explanation of its flaws overshadowing it's strengths. For example, mention how regular Zard needs sun support to stand out from its Mega Evolutions. However, sun support outside of its mega Y form is only limited to Ninetales which is extremely unviable and sun itself which is not as good as other weather due to typically having a bad matchup against them or stacking stealth Rock weaknesses on a team. Thus, regular Zard needs a lot of support in order to nuke properly. Even after all that is done, it needs specs to really differentiate itself from Char-Y which locks it into a move. This poor guy is basically set up bait for Mega ttar and to an extent Mega Gyarados. So what you can 2HKO Chansey if Megatar and Megados can reverse sweep the rest of your team. Thus, it shouldn't be ranked
I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Breloom does not deserve A rank.
Reason being is it works as a support mon with spores and great offensives mon, but it doesn't do it on the level like Terrakion, Char Y, and Lando-T as the are able to perform their job consistently throughout the match where Breloom can often be seen as a one off (a damn good one off, but one non the least). It performs similarly to Diggersby as a frail, strong priority abuser yet isn't comparable due to the amount of support Spores is able to bring about showing off how well it is capable to distinguish itself from the other Mons in the rankings.
Yet as I stated, I do not believe that Breloom is able to be moved up as it doesn't seem to fit the idea of the other Mons in A rank. IE ones who can consistently do their job throughout the match and have a larger impact overall then compared to Loom.
Reason being is it works as a support mon with spores and great offensives mon, but it doesn't do it on the level like Terrakion, Char Y, and Lando-T as the are able to perform their job consistently throughout the match where Breloom can often be seen as a one off (a damn good one off, but one non the least). It performs similarly to Diggersby as a frail, strong priority abuser yet isn't comparable due to the amount of support Spores is able to bring about showing off how well it is capable to distinguish itself from the other Mons in the rankings.
Yet as I stated, I do not believe that Breloom is able to be moved up as it doesn't seem to fit the idea of the other Mons in A rank. IE ones who can consistently do their job throughout the match and have a larger impact overall then compared to Loom.
Breloom should stay in A-, Salemance summed it up perfectly.
I think its about time Garchomp goes to A. It's simply not as effective as other A+ moms and to a lesser extent some A mons. Azumarill, Bisharp, Keldeo, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, etc. are guys that pretty much every time needs an answer to and are very threatening to plenty of teams, many of these guys define the metagame. To me, Garchomp just isnt one of those pokemon. Base 102 speed really isnt that amazing anymore and while many of its sets are good, none are great. The lead set is alright, but faces competition or is inferior to leads sets of Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Terrakion, Mamoswine, Landorus-T and to a lesser extent Tyranitar. Many of these pokemon have something else going for it besides stealth rock and sheer offensive presence. The first 3 can run taunt, Mamoswine has an arguably better offensive typing and is immune to taunt, Landorus-T has Intimidate and U-turn, and Tyranitar is similar to Garchomp but bulkier and can support the team better. Garchomps choice scarf set is a decent revenge killer, but lacks power and all of its moves are terrible to be locked into besides Dragon Claw which is still weak without an item. There are so many things that can take advantage of Garchomp locked into any of its moves that its not even funny. In my opinion, I'd rather have a scarfed Landorus-T since it has access to intimidate and u-turn or a scarfed keldeo, which can spam scald all day long. Finally, Garchomps, Life Orb + Swords Dance set is probably its best set, but still isnt worthy of A+. Pretty much anything faster than base 102 speed can check it and despite Garchomps good bulk, without investment and with Life Orb recoil priority can take it down fast. This set is also sort of outclassed by the Lati@s, who have access to defog, can check/counter keldeo, have better speed, and still have great coverage and power. Dragonite also has an easier time boosting thanks to multiscale and has dragon dance and extreme speed. Dont get me wrong, Garchomp is still a good pokemon by all means, but it doesnt belong in A+ anymore. Its closer to the likes of Landorus-T, Lati@s, Heatran, and Dragonite than Talonflame, Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Mawile, and the rest of the A+ pokemon.
I think its about time Garchomp goes to A. It's simply not as effective as other A+ moms and to a lesser extent some A mons. Azumarill, Bisharp, Keldeo, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, etc. are guys that pretty much every time needs an answer to and are very threatening to plenty of teams, many of these guys define the metagame. To me, Garchomp just isnt one of those pokemon. Base 102 speed really isnt that amazing anymore and while many of its sets are good, none are great. The lead set is alright, but faces competition or is inferior to leads sets of Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Terrakion, Mamoswine, Landorus-T and to a lesser extent Tyranitar. Many of these pokemon have something else going for it besides stealth rock and sheer offensive presence. The first 3 can run taunt, Mamoswine has an arguably better offensive typing and is immune to taunt, Landorus-T has Intimidate and U-turn, and Tyranitar is similar to Garchomp but bulkier and can support the team better. Garchomps choice scarf set is a decent revenge killer, but lacks power and all of its moves are terrible to be locked into besides Dragon Claw which is still weak without an item. There are so many things that can take advantage of Garchomp locked into any of its moves that its not even funny. In my opinion, I'd rather have a scarfed Landorus-T since it has access to intimidate and u-turn or a scarfed keldeo, which can spam scald all day long. Finally, Garchomps, Life Orb + Swords Dance set is probably its best set, but still isnt worthy of A+. Pretty much anything faster than base 102 speed can check it and despite Garchomps good bulk, without investment and with Life Orb recoil priority can take it down fast. This set is also sort of outclassed by the Lati@s, who have access to defog, can check/counter keldeo, have better speed, and still have great coverage and power. Dragonite also has an easier time boosting thanks to multiscale and has dragon dance and extreme speed. Dont get me wrong, Garchomp is still a good pokemon by all means, but it doesnt belong in A+ anymore. Its closer to the likes of Landorus-T, Lati@s, Heatran, and Dragonite than Talonflame, Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Mawile, and the rest of the A+ pokemon.
Since Breloom has been brought up again I'll just refer to my previous post on it.
And additional point since I made this post is that Breloom can help deal with the Mawile abundance by being able to put a +2 Mawile to sleep.
babaGAReeb
Banned deucer.
scizor fell to b rank?!?! wow, how did that happen?
Basically the only set it can run better than its mega counterpart is CB
babaGAReeb
Banned deucer.
oh i get it, its mega evolution outclasses it
Because Mega Scizor does almost everything Scizor can better. Literally the only thing that regular Scizor does better than Mega Scizor is the Choice Band set.
babaGAReeb
Banned deucer.
is scizor still actually good as it used to be? for example if ur using some other mega and cant use mega scizor
Yeah, Breloom should stay A-, though Mega Venusaur's drop from omnipresence does make it a lot more effective than previously.
Garchomp I also think could go from A+ to A (though it doesn't REALLY matter...). As a set up sweeper, Garchomp is just not that threatening in XY. Too much priority, too many faster dragon/ice attack users, too much more impressive offensive power (and also more Pokemon that can handle it defensively). I mean, I still use Garchomp a lot because its bulk, Speed, and power all make it a great meat shield (especially with that ability and Rocky Helmet) to set up SR with but... it's never something I heavily RELY on. Being a solid and menacing meat shield/support mon, a decent Scarf users (in a meta with barely any scarf users), and an above average (but still pretty average) setup sweeper probably doesn't add up to an A+ rank.
Garchomp I also think could go from A+ to A (though it doesn't REALLY matter...). As a set up sweeper, Garchomp is just not that threatening in XY. Too much priority, too many faster dragon/ice attack users, too much more impressive offensive power (and also more Pokemon that can handle it defensively). I mean, I still use Garchomp a lot because its bulk, Speed, and power all make it a great meat shield (especially with that ability and Rocky Helmet) to set up SR with but... it's never something I heavily RELY on. Being a solid and menacing meat shield/support mon, a decent Scarf users (in a meta with barely any scarf users), and an above average (but still pretty average) setup sweeper probably doesn't add up to an A+ rank.
You'll still manage fine with a non-mega Scizor if you choose to use your mega stone on a different Pokemon instead. It's simply a matter of Mega-Scizor being a direct upgrade over the base Scizor, where-as other mega evolutions either fulfill roles that are exponentially different than their non-mega role (Tyranitar) or aren't that much better than their base form. (Alakazam...)
Salemance summed up my opinion on Breloom pretty well. Spore is excellent and the little guy has some other good things going for him, but I simply cannot perceive his role(s) to be as effectively executed as other Pokemon at higher ranks.
Garchomp has lost a lot of its luster and I can see it dropping a rank, but it's still a great Pokemon. It's become rather predictable though; most run the typical Scarf set to be able to check Mr. X from wrecking their team, to the point where I haven't encountered many other sets in the past month. You'll come across a subSD set every now and then, and it's not to suggest that Garchomp is now a one-trick pony that cannot pull off a setup sweeping role effectively anymore, but if there's any one reason to be packing Garchomp on a team, chances are it's to cover for a crippling Charizard X weakness that can only be truly realized with a Choice Scarf.
Garchomp' greatest strength though is it's Sash set as a fast lead that can outspeed Deo-D's Taunt along with powerful STABs to make dents to pave a path without worrying about getting Outrage locked since it's a suicide lead. There are a few reasons Garchomp could probably go down to A, but if there's any reason it's in A+, it's this set.
- Status