Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Gloating said:
Mega Charizard Y should definitely be moved to A+ maybe even S, It's just great and can even work in stall. Gets WoW and reliable recovery. All it really needs is Defog support which most teams have anyway. Doesn't even need set up moves to hit like a nuke. Idk why it was even moved that low but it deserves to go up a rank or two. Then there's also the fact that you never know if it will be X or Y.
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Y tends to be very obvious thanks to its teammates (you can usually tell it's Y if it has a Pursuit trapper) and needs Defog support more than X because it has a harder time against offensive and some balanced teams, which have an easy time checking/revenging it.
 
Karxrida said:
Y tends to be very obvious thanks to its teammates (you can usually tell it's Y if it has a Pursuit trapper) and needs Defog support more than X because it has a harder time against offensive and some balanced teams, which have an easy time checking/revenging it.
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Yeah you're right which is why I edited the last part lol. Still though A+ seems like a better fit than A in my opinion.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
some defensive zard y replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136966889
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136144503
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136650736 loss but was hax
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In the first replay, Zard Y was forced out a ton and barely did anything; the things that it burned could have been OHKO'd by a normal Y or done better by a defensive X. Quagsire and Amoongus put in more work.

Second replay was a bit better as you burned Garchomp, but X could have done that too. You were still forced out a bunch, like when Mega Mawile hit you with Play Rough and let your opponent bring in Keldeo.

In the third one you probably would have lost Y regardless of Hax since your opponent had a Keldeo and Roosting each turn would waste your sun turns.

I just fail to see what Y does that can't be done better by X on Stall. It might not have as high a Spd stat, but that's what you have Chansey for. Then again I don't play stall so take that with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Okay yeah it counters Mega Mawile like Baharoth said, but their are better ways of doing that without using up your Mega.
 
Not that i am against moving Zard Y back up but i am realy not convinced about that defensive set. It basicly acts as a pivot and using a pivot with a 4x SR weakness seems counterproductive to me, sure it counters Mawile but tbh i would rather go for Heatran or even Arcanine before i resort to charizard for that. Aside from that i cant think of that many other physical threats that it could check with that 4x rock weakness, against slower attackers it might even get screwed by Earthquake when its forced to roost.

Is there anything else he can do that is notable?
 
Delibird is Amazing said:
synthesis

And unless aegislash is sub toxic or has flash cannon you aren't losing to aegislash
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Toxic and Flash Cannon is carried by two of the best Aegi sets, which means that Chesnaught loses to 2/3 of the best Aegi sets. Also, Synthesis does shit against a sand team, the kind of team filled with Pokemon that you need Chesnaught to deal with, such as Excadrill and Tyranitar.
 
alexwolf said:
Toxic and Flash Cannon is carried by two of the best Aegi sets, which means that Chesnaught loses to 2/3 of the best Aegi sets. Also, Synthesis does shit against a sand team, the kind of team filled with Pokemon that you need Chesnaught to deal with, such as Excadrill and Tyranitar.
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Isn't Flash Cannon somewhat rare on KS + 3 Attacks?
 
I'll vouch for Conkeldurr dropping to B- rank. It just isn't as effective as it used to be due to a meta of fairies, lati twins, and birdspam. Sure, conkeldurr offers a handy resistance to dark moves & stone miss, powerful priority, and can absorb status...but he's much better on paper than in practice. Rotoms aren't as popular as before, and AV Conkeldurr's big draw was that he could take care of the machines without trouble. In addition, Magic Guard Clefable is a much better status absorber because it's immune to stealth rock damage, has great resistances, and takes zero damage from status. It also has reliable recovery in softboiled unlike Drain Punch.

Don't get me wrong, Conkeldurr is still a good mon. But good doesn't get far in OU.
 
I still feel that Cobalion should be ranked. Cobalion is not Lucario. Sure, they both share one set, but that does not make them the same. Cobalion is incredibly bulky: A good example: *+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 272-320 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO* Cobalion can survive any attack from a +1 Mega Gyrados (Or a normal Gyrados). From there, it can proceed to t-wave it, stopping it if it tries to get another boost, and on the next turn, v-switch away. Another thing. Volt Switch. Cobalion can also act as a pivot. Of course, it is also the ultimate dark counter (And Scizor, if you need help with that: +6 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 144-170 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). Anyways, I hope people start debating about Cobalion, because it truly is a great pokemon.
I say it should be in C
 
437.gif

Unranked ----> D​
Bronzong fulfills a niche in OU as being a very reliable Trick Room setter. It also has access to a variety of support moves from Dual Screens, to Stealth Rock, to Explosion. It has very high Defense and a cool typing. However, Bronzong really doesn't shine. It has a weakness to the common Knock Off, and Shadow Ball of all things. It can't dish out any damage, it lacks recovery, and it's outclassed by practically everything. Despite this, it does have the tiniest niche of being able to set Trick Room reliably with Stealth Rock, and I do think it needs a ranking in the lowest, D.
 
Valmanway said:
It's because when people start talking about blacklisted Pokemon, then discussion, frankly speaking, turns to shit.
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The quality of discussion shouldn't affect a pokemon's viability ranking in this thread. That's not a valid reason to blacklist a pokemon from rankings. A pokemon should only be blacklisted if it lacks true viability and people continue to try and make cases for it like Donphan for example.
 
Baharoth said:
Not that i am against moving Zard Y back up but i am realy not convinced about that defensive set. It basicly acts as a pivot and using a pivot with a 4x SR weakness seems counterproductive to me, sure it counters Mawile but tbh i would rather go for Heatran or even Arcanine before i resort to charizard for that. Aside from that i cant think of that many other physical threats that it could check with that 4x rock weakness, against slower attackers it might even get screwed by Earthquake when its forced to roost.

Is there anything else he can do that is notable?
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Karxrida said:
In the first replay, Zard Y was forced out a ton and barely did anything; the things that it burned could have been OHKO'd by a normal Y or done better by a defensive X. Quagsire and Amoongus put in more work.

Second replay was a bit better as you burned Garchomp, but X could have done that too. You were still forced out a bunch, like when Mega Mawile hit you with Play Rough and let your opponent bring in Keldeo.

In the third one you probably would have lost Y regardless of Hax since your opponent had a Keldeo and Roosting each turn would waste your sun turns.

I just fail to see what Y does that can't be done better by X on Stall. It might not have as high a Spd stat, but that's what you have Chansey for. Then again I don't play stall so take that with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Okay yeah it counters Mega Mawile like Baharoth said, but their are better ways of doing that without using up your Mega.
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1st replays aren't me it was some guy at top of ladder few weeks ago (I like watching top players replays)

Being able to counter lando and mawile is huge with no other pokemon being able to do it.
The lack of item is actually nice as it allows it to stomach knock offs. hence it can also counter/check bisharp. Something Moltress its main competition can't do.
I know it can ohko things like mawile, but if it attacks it allows sucker punch to ko. Also wisp allows you to burn switch ins like garchomp and tyranitar.

Heatran gets beat badly by focuspunch also it hates knock offs.

As for keldeo 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 150-176 (41.7 - 49%) Not sure how much bulk this zard was using, but SPD ZardY can even tank hits from keldeo

0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%)

Arcanine is nice, but besides countering mawile its pretty useless.
For defensive purposes zard still has an immense offensive presence.

And of course it gets forced out most stall mons do get forced out
In addition Zard Y is great vs other stall breakers like sabeleye mew gengar gliscor

As for megas on stall teams it only faces competition from scizor, aggron, venu, and zard x

Zard Y counters things no other mega or any other pokemon can in on pokemon.

This is just part of the reason it should move up. The other being its still a beast on force of nature type teams.
Obviously it has its flaws, but its flaws are what is holding it from S in my opinion not from A+
 
Sylveon falling to C+: I dont think it's needed, it still has great typing, good Sdef, hit's behind sub, and gets a free life orb.

Mew rising to A-: it's versitile as hell, It could certainly handle the promotion.

Mega Charizard Y rising to A+: Yes, this needs to happen, it's a great mon, and is just as good as the other mega's in A+

Azelf rising to B-: Meh, it taunt's, rocks, slings out a fire-blast, or boom's, it's pretty easy to work around, but it gets the job done. could go either way.

Celebi rising to C+: counters some good shit,dies to the rest, it is fine for a raise.

Cresselia rising to C+: a big piece of meat, usually just gets hammered without doing much back, Keep it C-rank.

Conkeldurr falling to B-: It still often pulls it's weight, hit's hard and is a pain in the dick to kill, keep it B-Rank.

BRB, tired as fuck, might edit this shit later.
 
TheArchangle said:
The quality of discussion shouldn't affect a pokemon's viability ranking in this thread. That's not a valid reason to blacklist a pokemon from rankings. A pokemon should only be blacklisted if it lacks true viability and people continue to try and make cases for it like Donphan for example.
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People were trying to make a case in the worst way possible. And Darm is not viable in OU when Victini and Entei both exist. The arguement against Darm has been done before, I'm just too lazy to go back 30~ ish pages.
 
TheArchangle said:
The quality of discussion shouldn't affect a pokemon's viability ranking in this thread. That's not a valid reason to blacklist a pokemon from rankings. A pokemon should only be blacklisted if it lacks true viability and people continue to try and make cases for it like Donphan for example.
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If you have a problem with the blacklisting system, you should take that up with alexwolf.
 
PsYkIk said:
People were trying to make a case in the worst way possible. And Darm is not viable in OU when Victini and Entei both exist. The arguement against Darm has been done before, I'm just too lazy to go back 30~ ish pages.
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Darm is viable even with Entei and Victini around. Darmanitan lacks Victini's detrimental psychic typing causing it to be maimed by Knock Off and Sucker Punch along with not enjoying a U-Turn and boasts less power with worse effects from V-Create than the recoil of Flare Blitz. Entei isn't even close to Darmanitan in terms of sheer wall breaking power and utility in the form of U-Turn. Darmanitan's ability to also take advantage of LO without recoil is a major plus.
 
TheArchangle said:
Darm is viable even with Entei and Victini around. Darmanitan lacks Victini's detrimental psychic typing causing it to be maimed by Knock Off and Sucker Punch along with not enjoying a U-Turn and boasts less power with worse effects from V-Create than the recoil of Flare Blitz. Entei isn't even close to Darmanitan in terms of sheer wall breaking power and utility in the form of U-Turn. Darmanitan's ability to also take advantage of LO without recoil is a major plus.
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Darm is also going to kill itself in 3 hits due to Flare Blitz's recoil and Darm's 105/55/55 bulk without investment doesnt allow it to take Knock Offs as well.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 355-419 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 294-347 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Entei also can also spread burns like crazy with Sacred Fire. Victini can also get past bulky waters with Bolt Strike, something Darm can't do unless you U-turn out. Darm is the definition of a glass cannon and Flare Blitz's recoil does not help it out against the plethora of priority in OU.
 
PsYkIk said:
Darm is also going to kill itself in 3 hits due to Flare Blitz's recoil and Darm's 105/55/55 bulk without investment doesnt allow it to take Knock Offs as well.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 355-419 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 294-347 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Entei also can also spread burns like crazy with Sacred Fire. Victini can also get past bulky waters with Bolt Strike, something Darm can't do unless you U-turn out. Darm is the definition of a glass cannon and Flare Blitz's recoil does not help it out against the plethora of priority in OU.
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Nothing in the tier wants to take a knock off from a life orb Bisharp. My point about knock off is based around the fact that every pokemon in the game that can run knock off, runs knock off. That's where Victini's psychic typing becomes a real problem. I'm aware of Entei's ability to spread burns which is extremely valuable but Darmanitan's pure wall-breaking ability and U-Turn support warrant usage. Sure it's a glass cannon, that's the whole point of Darmanitan. Deoxys-A is a glass cannon as well. Doesn't change the fact that's it's a threat who can tear teams apart when given the chance.

I'm not saying Darmanitan deserves to be a highly ranked or ahead of Entei/Victini but it deserves to be ranked and not blacklisted.
 
Darm has bad speed tier and if you scarft it it won't even be able to OHKO chansey(I fought against one, it was hilarious)
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 391-462 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not even with LO:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 508-601 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Chansey spam Softboiled, say good bye to darm.
If you want a wallbreaker for this sole purpose, get Crawndaunt, that thing is unstopabble for full stall
Also: it's blacklisted i don't think discussing about it is a good idea
EDIT: The difference is Deo-A has a good speed tier, which darm can only dream about
 
iirc the reason a lot of those mons are blacklisted is because one idiot a little while back couldn't have a proper debate about them, which led to pages and pages of worthless, circular drivel. There's nothing inherently wrong with the mons themselves, but I'd still inquire before just jumping into discussion about them.

Anyway, regarding the mons that moved, the only one I feel qualified to comment on is Sylveon, which I think its a C-tier mon at best. I agree with Jukain's point about the outclassed thing, which is what I said about volc (although that was completely ignored). Unlike Volc, Sylveon actually has a niche over chansey with it's offensive presence. However since you trade a hell of a lot of bulk for it (and chansey has seismic toss)
means its pretty much never worth it in the end anyway.
 
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TheArchangle said:
Nothing in the tier wants to take a knock off from a life orb Bisharp. My point about knock off is based around the fact that every pokemon in the game that can run knock off, runs knock off. That's where Victini's psychic typing becomes a real problem.
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Victini's Psychic typing is honestly pretty useful cause it gives offensive teams something to switch in to Mega Medicham and Gardevoir, that's not Aegislash.

Darmanitan, however, provides almost no defensive synergy at all. It's very frail+relies on a recoil move, mono-fire is not very good except against a handful of pokemon (like, two) and while it hits ridonkulously hard, there's quite a number of options that stall and defensive teams have for handling it, and if it's not carrying Scarf its match-up against offense is total ass (this is unlike Deo-A who you compared it to, who is fast as balls+hits from the special side.) imo, in regards to wall breaking, I don't even think it's as good as Haxorus.
 
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