Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[Superpowerdude]

Now in regards to Fletchling... a lot of people have said it has trouble getting past its checks and I will get to that in a moment but with that aside Fletchling is still arguably one of the best sweepers in Little Cup perhaps only passed by Missy?? and also the best revenge killer in the tier all in the one set! Thats very dangerous. Having a 110 BP (when holding no item which is almost always) STAB move with priority is insane, especially because Flying is a pretty good offensive type, hitting Fighting and grass super effectively, two pretty common types with Mienfoo, Scraggy, Timburr, Foongus, Cottonee used on countless teams. In fact not only is Fletchling a revenge killer with its Gale Wings Acrobatics but its also a nuke being able to threaten very common Pokemon like listed above. Fletchling along with sturdyjuice is the reason why we need Stealth Rocks, otherwise Fletchling unlike a lot of other sweepers can very easily threaten Pokemon with revenge kills early-mid game and still be preserved for a late game sweep.

People have mentioned that Fletchlings options like Overheat aren't to reliable to get past its checks and sweep and thats true to an extent although keep in mind that late game things like Pawnaird and Magnemite may not want to take an Overheat if they have been damaged but the point I'm making is that Fletchling is so easy to fit on teams that bring out its full potential / let it get past checks. The team styles I am talking about are a) fletchdig b)volt turn c) bird spam

Firstly I will look at fletch diglett teams one of the worst match ups you can see in team preview, diglett is able to trap and dispose of numerous Fletchling checks, chinchou, pawnaird, magnemite, this match up is really hard to face unless you have multiple checks or Archen.

Volt turn is another team style that makes Fletchling very dangerous, Pokemon like Magnemte, mienfoo, chinchou, larvesta, etc can make great volt turn chains with fletchling chipping away at the Pokemon who wall fletch, u-turning into Mienfoo or Larvesta with fletch lets you threaten Magnemite and pawnaird and you can also keep up the turning chain. Chinchou can threaten Magnemite, tirtouga and archen in some instances too making this style very hard to vs without a chinchou

Finally bird spam, tailow and dodou can lure in the same Pokemon and severely weaken them, tailow has got steelwing for archen, boom burst sets will do damage to Chinchou and A powerful facade or Bravebird can also help wear down checks. Dodou wields a powerful Brave Bird and also has Knock Off which will severely weaken checks by making chinchou, archens and mags berry juice potentially useless. Vullaby can also use knock off and brave bird in similar ways and also has Defog in order to remove rocks for fletch.


These team styles are very common and on top of Fletchlings coverage options, force opponents to run multiple checks also I can't stress enough Fletchlings ability to run two roles simultaneously making it so uber, even if you are running checks to help prevent it sweeping it's still going to be really threatening to your team as a revenge killer (and even a slow pivot)

Edit: also forgot to mention that despite Fletchlings frail ness it can be more easy than you think to bring it on the field, as mentioned above volt turn Pokemon have great synergy with Fletchling allowing Pokemon like Mienfoo and Chinchou to "pivot" into Fletchling especially because things like Foongus and Cottonee love to switch into these two. With Knock Off every where Fletchling can switch in without sustaining a terrible amount of damage due to holding no item. Speaking of items, although it ruins it's revenge killing potential Fletchling can run Berry Juice because it lets it switch into a neutral hit not named Knock Off while regaining all health lost. These sets also make stealth rock less of a problem although again it's not exactly prefered because it ruins Fletchlings revenge killing potential, it is an option that is sometimes overlooked I feel. Also on hyper offense teams Pokemon will often just do damage until they faint which obviously gives Fletchling a free switch in

 

[Slashari]

To add on to other posts, being weak to Stealth Rock really sucks for Fletch. Since checks are so common, Fletchling is forced to switch out a lot, meaning it gets worn down very fast. This problem is especially pronounced against bulkier teams, as Fletch must OHKO the opposing Pokemon or it risks dying or being statused. Bulky teams tend to force Fletch out quite often, meaning that SR damage takes its toll quite fast.

While it does have priority Roost, it's so frail that it will often be KO'd right after it Roosts. Roost also discounts the flying type, meaning Fletch cannot stall out Fighting types by continually recovering.

 

[Superpowerdude]

To add on to other posts, being weak to Stealth Rock really sucks for Fletch. Since checks are so common, Fletchling is forced to switch out a lot, meaning it gets worn down very fast. This problem is especially pronounced against bulkier teams, as Fletch must OHKO the opposing Pokemon or it risks dying or being statused. Bulky teams tend to force Fletch out quite often, meaning that SR damage takes its toll quite fast.

While it does have priority Roost, it's so frail that it will often be KO'd right after it Roosts. Roost also discounts the flying type, meaning Fletch cannot stall out Fighting types by continually recovering.

You bring up good points and yes Fletchlings low bulk may make it hard to roost but I find it's quite the opposite, Fletchling forces fighting types and other things out so easily getting a roost up is easier than you think

 

[The Avalanches]

These posts are seriously well thought-out regarding Fletchling. Although it annoys the hell out of me to give an opposing Fletchling the chance to shred me, if I look at it from a purely academic standpoint, a Fletchling sweep is a bit more difficult to orchestrate, as it is fairly frail, weak to Stealth Rock, and it is checked by a big chunk of threats. Although I find its prescence scary when Diglett pops up alongside it, they can both be handled too easily for Fletchling to be considered broken; at least in my head.

Now onto Misdreavus.

Even if I was stoically against a Misdreavus ban, it looks like the people have spoken at this point, the tides won't turn on this one, and rightfully so. People above me have pointed out Missy's Spritzee-esque bulk, along with its sexy 19 Speed tier, and its fierce Special Attack along with options like Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, HP Fighting and even Psychic make Misdreavus one of the deadliest threats in the meta. Barring mad predixt, virtually nothing can switch in on Misdreavus. I mentioned earlier that scouting for Fletchling's coverage was troublesome. It is, but learning exactly what Missy plans to do is even more difficult. Most people like Porygon and Houndour as a Missy counter, but TrickScarfing and HP Fighting make it still unsafe.

Even if we discount Missy's offensive punch, it gets Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Destiny Bond, Taunt, Magic Coat, Trick, Heal Bell and Memento. It can and will cripple you. And it will probably make you swear at your computer.

And this point is nonevent, but its BST is five points higher than Qwilfish's. That's criminally insane.

 

[Diana]

Okay so it's 5am and I'm probably going back to sleep soon but while I'm here I might as well say something about the suspects tonight and probably go more into detail and participate more in the thread tomorrow. That means no actual essay tonight, just a little overview of what I think. Apologies if not everything here makes sense, I'm tired @_@

Misdreavus is the closest to the line of being worth banning. It really has all the tools a Pokemon could want: Good offensive stats, good bulk, a fantastic movepool, and even Will-O-Wisp to spread status. Will-O-Wisp here is really important as it means Knock Off is going to get powered down. That being said, it's very true that it's not going to be able to do all of that at once. Nasty Plot/Will-O-Wisp/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting seems to be the set I've seen have the most success, as it combines the best of what Misdreavus has to offer: Burning Knock Off users coming in earlier in the game and setting up with Nasty Plot to sweep later. Is it a Pokemon that takes zero skill to use? No. Is it broken enough to be worth banning? I'm leaning toward yes, but have been swaying back and forth this entire suspect test.

Fletchling is clearly the one generating the most controversy, and it's one I have a ton of experience with in this metagame. It's a fantastic sweeper, no doubt about it, with Swords Dance and Priority Acrobatics, with U-turn to be a pivot early. However, there are tons of Pokemon that are already good and worth spots on a team that can handle Fletchling quite handily. Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Pawniard, and Magnemite are just a few of the Pokemon worth looking at here. Archen gets one extra slot to deal with things that can handle Acrobatics, and each one only hits one or two of the many checks Fletchling normally has to worry about (barring Natural Gift Ground, which clashes really badly with Acrobatics needing a lack of an item and Archen being immune to it). And if you opt for coverage you get rid of priority Roost, which I found quite important on a Pokemon with U-turn that happens to be weak to Stealth rock as well. Diglett can help with this to an extent, but I'm not convinced that having Diglett able help out with some, though definitely not all, things makes Fletchling broken.

 

[Yagura]

I'll just go ahead and say my opinions about these two Pokémon without commenting on any previous post for now:

​

Strengths of Misdreavus:

Misdreavus is one of the biggest threats in LC that can do many roles as it can run many sets effectively which are mainly the Sub NP set, Scarf set, Support, Bulky attacker.. which makes it really unpredictable and potentially hard to counter or revenge kill. Having high speed which allows it to hit the magnificent 19 speed tier, it also has a decent 60/60/85 which lets it take some boosted and super effective attacks. Misdreavus hits 18 in Special Attack with a Timid nature and can double that stat with Nasty Plot that has no negative effect, it also has a wide special moveset with moves like STAB Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, HP Fighting, Thunderbolt, Psychic.. that give it a perfect coverage, its moveset doesn't stop there and it also has support moves that makes it -like I said before- play many roles, some of these moves are Will-o-Wisp, that makes it wall physical attackers bar Guts and Fire-types Pokémon and makes it back of its comparatively modest Defense stat, Taunt that can cripple most of its prospective Pokémon that "wall" it, Destiny Bond which takes down threats that to knock it down which is made even more useful thanks to its high speed, Heal Bell and Memento that give great team support, Thunder Wave to slow some threats down which makes them easy to get revenge killed, Substitute when predicting switches etc...

Weaknesses of Misdreavus:

With all of those strengths there must be some flows in Misdreavus but there aren't that much to be honest, first of all this gen came with the Knock Off boost which made it a coverage move for Fighting Pokémon that have been walled easily by Misdreavus after it has been only used to remove items, common users of it are Scarf Pawniard that can also trap with Pursuit but can't sacrifice a switch-in in case the foe predicts the switch and uses either Will-o-Wisp or HP Fighting, another Pokémon is Timburr that has enough bulk to live an unboosted Dazzling Gleam/Psychic and can't switch in Will-o-wisp that boosts its attack thanks to Guts however its speed hampers it and is outclassed by Pawniard if the opponent has already set up with Nasty Plot. Some Normal-type walls like Lickitung, Porygon, Munchlax.. and other Pokémon like Spritzee can switch into Misdreavus but fear getting taunted or they'll become an easy setup bait (Porygon however usually runs Shadow Ball). There are also some checks to Misdreavus like Stunky and Houndour, the first can get burned which baulks it from its job and the second can be easily dealt with by HP Fighting.

Ban or no ban?

Misdreavus' strengths obviously overcome its flows, having many sets the opponent should always carry counters for each set which makes it really overcentralizing. I say BAN.

Fletchling will be written in few minutes.

​

Strengths of Fletchling:

Having the strongest priority attack in the metagame people quickly found out the real power of Fletchling. With a 110 priority Acrobatics it's clearly the best revenge killer in LC. It also has access to other moves like STAB Frustration/Return, U-Turn to gain momentum, Overheat to deal with Steel-types, Natural Gift that lets it deal with some of its counters even though it can only used once and Steel Wing to hurt Rock-types. Fletchling has also access to Swords Dance to boost its mediocre Attack stat and priority Roost to heal itself, it can also learn Flame Charge to boost its speed but it's not that much effective. Fletchling can also run Hidden Power Grass but it's kind of outclassed by Natural Gift Lieche even thought it can be used multiple times. With its priority Acrobatics it's, as I said before, the best revenge killer in the metagame and one of most effective counters of Chlorophyll Pokémon under the sun.

Weaknesses of Fletchling:

Unlike Misdreavus Fletchling has a lot of counters and safe switch-ins because of its limited moveset and mediocre Attack stat as long as it didn't setup, it also has a low 45/43/38 relatively low bulk (also remember Fletchling can't run Eviolite so that Acrobatics isn't nerfed to 55 BP) makes that even easier, in fact any Rock, Steel and Electric-type Pokémon that has enough speed to outspeed Fletchling and can live an Acrobatics can revenge kill it and take it down. Some of the Pokémon that can counter it are: Tirtouga, Archen, Omanyte, Onix, Nosepass, Porygon.. are all viable which makes Fletchling way less dangerous than what it seems on paper.

Ban or no ban?

Even though Fletchling may seem dangerous it is not, it's understandable that it has the stronger priority in the metagame but it can be easily countered by a lot of common viable Pokémon. So I say NO BAN.

 

[fitzy72]

Nasty Plot/Will-O-Wisp/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting seems to be the set I've seen have the most success, as it combines the best of what Misdreavus has to offer: Burning Knock Off users coming in earlier in the game and setting up with Nasty Plot to sweep later.

You really need to have dazzling gleam on any Misdreavus imo as the loss in coverage if you aren't trying Sub + Hp Fighting to beat things is too much.

I feel like people talking about how Misdreavus can use its bulk to shrug off attacks and sweep are off point. I very rarely found it was able to Nasty Plot up and then run through teams. Knock off has too much presence in this metagame for it to set up on a lot of things and then revenge killers like Choice Scarf Pawniard or Fletchling are very popular to handle it. What makes Misdreavus a cut above the rest is how consistent it can pull of it's role.

Let's just take a look at all viable Misdreavus moves:
Substititue
Nasty Plot
Psychic
HP fighting
Shadowball
Dazzling Gleam
Taunt
Destiny Bond
Memento
Will-o-Wisp

All this from a Pokemon with decent typing, amazing stats and can run Eviolite and Berry Juice equally as well. I found myself a lot of the time leading with Misdreavus because it could spread burns early on and had no very bad matchups in turn one .

Is it broken? I don't think so. Well built teams are going to find a way to beat it thanks a lot due to the Knock Off weakness, vulnerability to powerful Scarf Pokemon and how the right bulky Normal Types (Porygon,Lickitung,Possibly Munchlax) are great switch ins to it.

It is making LC Less fun? Maybe. Misdreavus is a cut above the rest and there is honestly no reason you shouldn't use Misdreavus if your running a Standard team (IE not weather based or Trick Room) and this is a problem but that is LC for you. Things are always going to better than others and I don't think we should try to change that unless you have to go to silly measures like previous suspects (think Goomy because of Tangela) to be able to handle it.

Fletchling:

It's really hard to put into words as to why something with 110 BP priority off 15 Attack isn't broken but to put it as simply as possible it's because there are a lot of Pokemon in the tier that force you into god U-turn timing or using Weak non-stab special attacks or they take advantage of you.

Sorry I don't have a lot to say on Fletchling, I just don't think it's broken.

 

[Artemisa]

God y'all show dedication suspecting at night.

Missy - "Technically it isn't broken, you can can overcome counters with it", I would say that's pretty broken. The ability to exchange moves without that much risk is pretty amazing. Instead of Gligar, I would describe it more like a Meditite use to the fact of how its moveset is so versatile. It a close call between does two (Gligar & Meditite), but they both demonstrate the flexibility Misdreavus has. I think it should be banned because a team can't keep up with most of its sets. I'm ngl, I've just been slapping pawn or Porygon just or a way to beat Missy /most/ of the time. I can't always be too comfortable because Missy has many tools at its disposal and you can't afford to be wrong. The odds don't favor you.

Fletch - Fun is pretty opinionated, fun to me might not be fun to other people, so I don't think it should have that much influence on how broken it is. This thing isn't as flexible as you think, the only thing that is really appealing Priority Flying. Also lets make something clear, the only thing that gets Prio is flying moves not U-turn / Overheat / Steel Wing / HP Grass. Most Fletchlings can't afford to run that much speed because the lack of eviolite. It is really ev spread reliant and it favors defensive dates over speed any day. Some of these moves that help fletch "overcome" its counters have to be on the switch, or else the risk being ko'd by the counter. Priority roost might seem amazing, but considering it has no bulk (most moves do above 50%) it's not going to be roost stalling many mons anytime soon.

Now to the other points that people want to ban this for: Overcentralization. I'd like to think of LC like it has OU / UU / RU / NU all in one meta. This helps you at the pros and cons of mons and explains why certain "pokes" are used then others. I would rather use a Mienfoo than a Tyrogue, Mossy over Duskull / Frillish / Gastly, Chinchou over Mantyke, etc. If you would want to see variety, you would have to ban all the LC OU mons just to change the look of th meta. Once people get use to the meta, the cycle starts over. That's one form of the made up word overcentralization, now this is the other form. Of course you have to consider a fletch in team building because its a legitimate threat. Frillish / Lileep / Porygon / Sp Def Tirtouga / Magnemite / Chinchou / Snubbul / Slowpoke / Ferroseed / Ponyta / Pawniard / Licki / Archen / Shieldon (The god) / Amaura / Spritzee / Koffing / Bronzor / etc. can beat Fletch and some mons in there can beat the FletchDig core. You can make a core out of those mons and it would have other uses than just beating Fletch. I'd like to put the blame on the players for this "cookie cutter" offense instead of Fletch, imo. Have people tried using any of those pokes from the list as Fletch checks bar Tirtouga/Chichou?

 

[RZL]

Why is Misdreavus banworthy? Missy has three counters Houndour, Spritzee and Porygon, which also just happen to be a popular core. I don't consider Munchlax nor Lickitung counters as neither kike being burned and people forget that 60/60/85 bulk + Pain Split is actually decent as is have unreliable healing but healing all the same. As previously meantioned Missy gets near perfect coverage in HP Fighting/Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball/Thunder Bolt and gets a blistering 19 speed and 18 special to utilize it to it's full potential. Two it's main checks dislike being tricked out of their eviolites and given choice items witch hinder it's helpfulness and for those people that say but, Missy is weak to Knock Off. I answer with a question. How much does a burned Knock Off do? 236 Atk Life Orb burned Pawniard Knock Off (97.5BP) vs. 36HP/0Def Eviolite Misdreavus 16-19 (69.5-82.68 - guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk burned Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5BP) vs. 36HP/0Def Eviolite Misdreavus 7-9 (30.4-39.15) 85.5% chance to 3HKO. I'm always making sure to pack two check or counters to this thing because it is used 45% of the time. Just the fact that Pawniard's most common set is Choice Scarf and that it sits at 38% usage or second proves that Misdreavus is over-centralizing. I say you shall not pass. Ban.

Is Fletchling banworthy? Yes, I do believe Fletchling is banworthy but, I don't want to run into queenlucy copies everywhere and run half a team of checks and counters. Now on my way to why it is banworthy. It is banworthy as it picks what counters and checks it, much like Keldeo last gen OU. You seriously need to run at least a check or your going to lose to anyone half-decent. Sure it has weak attack but, it can fire off a free base 110 Power Stab with no drawbacks. DugFletch is a common core which uses memento to lower the foes offenses so Fletchling can survive the weakened attack to pull of a Swords Dance sweep as, 30 Atk is better than a mere 15. I believe Fletchling needs either memento Support or Wall breaker support to pull of a sweep and has way too many Checks and Counters. No Ban

 

[boo836]

Concerning Misdreavus:

I'll going to keep this relatively short and sweet. Misdreavus as a sweeper has the capability to set up and blast through nearly the entire metagame. Boasting some of the best coverage in the metagame, sky-high Special Attack, and part of the second highest natural speed tier. It's got pretty damn good bulk to save it from moves that would normally KO Gastly, and use Substitute to take advantage of the necessity to deal with Misdreavus. Part of my concern with Misdreavus is that it is almost always potentially able to grab momentum. Fighting types and many other Dark resists are basically ubiquitous. When dealing with Misdreavus, it's usually either a one for one, or you bring in an obvious check like Pawniard or Porygon. When you bring out a Fighting type in response, virtually all of Misdreavus' checks will flee, granting you a free turn. Mind game checks such as Scarf Pawniard are really susceptible to Hidden Power or Will-o-Wisp due to being really obvious switches. I don't want to repeat too many other people here, but the comparison made between Missy and Gligar is really strong, considering That many pokemon are just seen as Misdreavus fodder and thus considered unviable. Misdreavus is a textbook definition of broken, without question.

Fletchling however is quite different. I know Fletchling can be prepared for. I know it is easy to check hard, And honestly the issue really isn't that it's broken. But, having a priority base 110 STAB move with pretty good coverage along with other coverage moves, access to Swords Dance, ect. make it not only a damn good cleaner that requires no set up, but simultaneously one of the most dangerous sweepers in the game when backed by a boost. It's able to shift momentum extremely easily, and I personally feel that the metagame has stagnated thanks to it. Team building has become insane, with many of the most successful teams using multiple Fletch checks to ensure it can deal effectively with the little birdie. Typically, teams with Fletch will always try to break through those checks in order to pose a threat with Fletchling. Indeed, I've noticed that most of my games are determined by the longest lasting Fletchling. Overall, its presence is healthy for the metagame, And I'll collect and repost my previous comments on Fletchling later when I'm not on my phone.

 

[Dubby_Tee]

I am sure that some of the points I am about to make have been said before, but I would like to put my two cents in on time this time, instead of right to the deadline with the vote (lol):

Misdreavus:

I personally use Misdreavus on all my teams in LC, and often times she is a win condition for me. That being said, there are easy ways to beat her. Most commonly, Knock Off can wreck her. With so many Mons able to learn Knock Off, Misdreavus has not become the endgame that many think she is.

(For reference, this is my Misdreavus set I am using these calcs for):

236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now this is the point where one might say that a Dazzling Gleam from Misdreavus can OHKO at least 2 those Mons that I mentioned above. Well that is not the case:

242 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
242 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
242 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO

In my opinion, Misdreavus is extremely beatable, and should not be banned. Yes she does have a wide range of movesets, but most Mon's that have Knock Off can survive at least one hit from Misdreavus. Taking off the Eviolite or Berry Juice is extremely important, and even if that Mon faints, most of us are running another Mon with a priority move (or a faster Mon) that can finish her. For this reason, I believe that Misdreavus should not be banned.

Fletchling:

In my opinion, Fletchling may be more of a problem than Misdreavus, but I also believe that Fletchling can be beat. Gale Wings is what really makes Fletchling a problem in LC. Having priority access to all flying moves, really can make Fletchling stay around a lot longer than it should since its defense and special defense are not great. That being said though, my reasons for Fletchling not being banned are because of the following Pokemon being pretty common in LC:

Chinchou
Pawniard
Misdreavus

My reason for these Mons being here are that they can all survive priority Acrobatics:

(Note: These calcs are all without an item on Fletchling)

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Pawniard: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO
(And my personal favorite) 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO

They also have moves that can cripple Fletching, if not OHKO (I also know that Thunderbolt is rare on Misdreavus, but with Fletchling becoming more popular, we may see it becoming more common):

236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 13-17 (56.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Ever more common nowadays, teams are running Stealth Rock which severely cripples Fletchling. Using the same three Mons above, I will run the same calcs as I did before:

236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
152 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fletchling is able to beat by common Mons in the tier, in my opinion and I do not believe it should be banned.

Side Note:
The real problem to both Fletchling and Misdreavus is that Pawniard is so common in the tier, and counters both of their types. Yes both have moves that can wreck Pawniard, but Pawniard is a bigger threat to both of them.

 

[Sken]

Misdreavus:

Okay, this is a extremelly powerfull, and it's a delicated subject. Like a lot of people has said, its inmunnities, typing, moveset and stats are very very good. It is a versatile pokémon with a lot of viable sets that centralizes a lot the metagame (a lot of things are used with knock off (Dwebble) or shadow ball (Abra) to finish it). I think it should be broken if it wasn't extremely weak to knock off and pursuit. Knock off is one of the most used moves in the tier, and if this poke is weak to it is not really broken. I think that we all agree that if Knock off was banned, Missy would have to be banned too. And the weakness to pursuit makes it so trappeable by things like Pawn or Houndour. I'm not sure if it would be banned or not, but if i had to vote i'd vote no ban, because the game is really funny as it is, Ghost spam wouldn't be so strong as it was and more things. Anyway I'm not very sure. I'll read more opinions to decide what to vote. But, for the moment, i'd vote NO BAN.

Fletchling:

Well, I don't really think in Fletch to be broken. I agree it is pretty useful, because it has the most powerful priority in an offensive tier based on speed and priority, but it is not broken. It has poor base stats. Its attack and Special Attack are decent, but a little bit weak. It hasn't high speed and its defensive stats are so bad. It is weak to rocks. It really hasn't got a very good moveset like Misdreavus. It has a lot of counters, like Archen, Tirtouga, Shieldon, etc. Generally it has to bring no-item for Acrobatics base power, making it a weak poke offensively and defensively (it has no Life Orb/Band, no Berry Juice, no Eviolite). This bird doesn't kill things that another one kills:
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 124 HP / 240+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
For all these reasons I don't doubt now. I vote NO BAN.

PS: If something that I said is not correct I'm sorry, English isn't my mother tongue. ^^

 

[blarajan]

For the record, please don't just post your thoughts and stop--it would be most beneficial to respond to other people's arguments. Not only does that make this an effective discussion, but it makes you that much of a better candidate for a council position.

As for me, I am not going to say anything about Misdreavus, but in regards to Fletchling: am I the only one that has had games where it is just completely useless? I am not trying to sway opinion in either direction, but I wanted to bring that up. I have had games where Fletchling just is 100% shut down because of my opponent's Archen, and I have had games where the combination of Chinchou and Pawniard made things impossible for it as well. I have never used Fletchling + Diglett in tandem, but there are still Pokemon that Diglett cannot trap that really hurt Fletchling (Archen, Tirtouga, Pawniard with rocks breaking Diglett's sash, Slowpoke). Like, I've seen some crazy Fletchling sweeps but that is primarily from teams that were just super underprepared for it. I don't feel comfortable with saying it can sweep through teams when there are so many checks for it, and when it requires entire teams of support (such as Zigzagoon) to be crazy effective.

What do you think? Do you guys think the number of checks it has along with the ease in including its checks in teambuilding make up for how strong its priority moves are and how powerful of a revenge killer it is? I know that's basically what the discussion has been, but I wanted to contribute slightly as well.

Good work guys, keep it up!

 

[Camden]

A lot has already been said in this thread so I'll make this short and sweet.

Misdreavus: It's strong, it's speedy, it's bulky, and its movepool is ridiculous. It can act as a sweeper, a supporter, even an awkward mix of the two. NP + 3 attacks on its own is more than enough to handle most of the roster. SubNP makes me want to kill kittens, and support sets with WoW/Menento/Taunt are infuriating. The worst part about Missy is that you don't know if it's going to carry its support moves or not. Leaving in a physical attacker and getting WoW'd for it sucks. Getting Taunted because you think you can set up on her is annoying. She even has prio in Shadow Sneak. While I don't feel that her support is necessarily game-breaking, her tried and true set of Nasty Plot/Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/HP Fighting is enough to wreck the meta, and having those viable support options just makes her worse. I would vote to ban it.

Fletchling: Fletchling is an awkward case. Its mere existence adds pressure to your team, because at any point, it can come out and start tearing through with its Acro. There's also been a lot of discussion of it using HP Grass/Overheat/Steel Wing/Natural Gift to push past its checks. That's great and all, but that's not broken. Isn't an offensive Pokemon supposed to have options to check its checks? Otherwise, it can't do its job as well. This is where Fletch's problem comes in. It has a 4MSS issue. If it lacks HP Grass, it loses to Tirtouga. Without Steel Wing, it loses to Archen. Without Overheat/Natural Gift, it's losing to Pawniard and Magnemite. I suppose you could run Acro/HP Grass/Natural Gift/Steel Wing, but then you lose out on U-turn and Swords Dance. I need a bit more time to think about Fletch, about I'm leaning towards him being not banned.

 

[Yagura]

Misdreavus:

I personally use Misdreavus on all my teams in LC, and often times she is a win condition for me. That being said, there are easy ways to beat her. Most commonly, Knock Off can wreck her. With so many Mons able to learn Knock Off, Misdreavus has not become the endgame that many think she is.

(For reference, this is my Misdreavus set I am using these calcs for):

236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 26-34 (118.1 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now this is the point where one might say that a Dazzling Gleam from Misdreavus can OHKO at least 2 those Mons that I mentioned above. Well that is not the case:

242 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
242 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
242 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO

In my opinion, Misdreavus is extremely beatable, and should not be banned. Yes she does have a wide range of movesets, but most Mon's that have Knock Off can survive at least one hit from Misdreavus. Taking off the Eviolite or Berry Juice is extremely important, and even if that Mon faints, most of us are running another Mon with a priority move (or a faster Mon) that can finish her. For this reason, I believe that Misdreavus should not be banned.

I am not sure why you'd mention Mienfoo and Timburr as counters for Misdreavus, yes they both do high damage to Misdreavus and remove its Eviolite (if its holding one) but it also does enormous damage to them and both of them are slower than it so Misdreavus turns out the one being winning the matchup as long as it didn't receive prior damage and no one would bring Misdreavus on a predicted Knock Off. Also, Misdreavus can burn Mienfoo which would half its Attack and make it kind of useless. You also mentioned that if that Pokémon faints Misdreavus can be dealt with a priority move, don't you think that a Pokémon that doesn't have safe switchins and that usually ends up taking a Pokémon down is broken?

 

[Dubby_Tee]

I am not sure why you'd mention Mienfoo and Timburr as counters for Misdreavus, yes they both do high damage to Misdreavus and remove its Eviolite (if its holding one) but it also does enormous damage to them and both of them are slower than it so Misdreavus turns out the one being winning the matchup as long as it didn't receive prior damage and no one would bring Misdreavus on a predicted Knock Off. Also, Misdreavus can burn Mienfoo which would half its Attack and make it kind of useless. You also mentioned that if that Pokémon faints Misdreavus can be dealt with a priority move, don't you think that a Pokémon that doesn't have safe switchins and that usually ends up taking a Pokémon down is broken?

1. I mentioned Mienfoo and Timburr because they have access to Knock Off, not necessarily as counters to Misdreavus. Both are useful if Misdreavus has low health, and can be knocked out.

2. You would be surprised on the amount of people that bring in Misdreavus even on a predicted Knock Off. It does happen, and isn't as rare as you may think it is (yes that is mostly on the lower part of the tier, but it still happens occasionally as you get higher up).

3. I would sack Mienfoo or Timburr if I knew that I could hit Misdreavus with a Knock Off, and then bring in another Pokemon to kill Misdreavus. It happens all the time, even with other Pokemon. For example, let's look at any Pokemon with a stat increase. If you know you wouldn't be able to take it down with one hit from one Pokemon, would you sack a Pokemon just in order to take it down and stop it from sweeping your team? I know I would. Sacrifice one to get damage off to save the game. The same applies in this case.

4. While there aren't necessarily safe switch ins to Misdreavus, you can at least try to predict what Misdreavus is going to do. If you think Misdreavus is going to use Shadown Ball, then you switch into a Normal type. If you think Dazzling Gleam is coming, well, basically everything is going to get hit by it, but you can minimize the damage. If you think HP Fighting is coming, switch into a Ghost or Flying type (to minimize damage). So yes, it is possible to switch into Misdreavus.

 

[Aerow]

// Misdreavus //

60 HP / 60 Atk / 60 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SpD / 85 Spe / BST 435
​

Misdreavus is a huge offensive threat that is also capable of supporting your team greatly. One of the biggest problems I have with Misdreavus is its great movepool. Access to Nasty Plot means Misdreavus can easily boost its Special Attack by two stages because of its great bulk, Will-O-Wisp almost shuts down physical threats, Destiny Bond means Misdreavus is almost guaranteed two kills, and Torment can be used in combination with Substitute or Thunder Wave to make one of its best checks, Porygon, useless. Taunt can be used to deal with setup sweepers and hazard leads, Thunder Wave can be used to help slower teammates, and Memento to support teams with Pokemon such as Zigzagoon and Omanyte. The offensive movepool Misdreavus has is also great, with access to a strong Special Ghost-type STAB in Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam which hits Dark- and Fighting-types for super-effective damage, Thunderbolt to deal with Flying-types, and Psychic to hit Fighting-types even harder. Misdreavus therefore has access to a ton of great moves, while it still isn't hurt by a four-move-slot-syndrom. This gives Misdreavus unpredictability, since there are lot of different sets, and even variations of them again. Misdreavus' ability Levitate also makes it even harder to wear down because of its immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

Misdreavus also has great stats to work with. 60 / 60 / 85 mixed bulk is excellent, and is comparable to walls such as Spritzee, Porygon, and Vullaby. However, Misdreavus rarely likes being used as a wall due to its lack of a recovery move, but that doesn't make Misdreavus less bulky. Moreover, if not great bulk was enough, Misdreavus also sports fantastic offensive stats, with 85 Special Attack and 85 Speed. This means Misdreavus is one of the most powerful Special Attackers in Little Cup, while also hitting the second highest unboosted speed tier.

Misdreavus can also run a bunch of different items. Berry Juice can be used on the Substitute + Nasty Plot sweeper set, Eviolite can be used for a bulky attacker, Life Orb can be used to get some extra 2HKOes, Choice Specs can be used for great power, and Choice Scarf can be used to outspeed basically everything in the metagame. Access to Trick means Misdreavus can Trick a opponent its Specs or Scarf, while gaining a Eviolite back, and can then function as a bulky attacker again. This further shows how versatile and difficult to cover Misdreavus can be.

Another problem I feel with Misdreavus is speedties. There are many battles I have seen and played where speedties with Misdreavus vs Misdreavus will totally change the game, which I don't feel is healthy. Speedties will always happen in a tier like LC, but Misdreavus is simply so much more potent than most other Pokemon, that these speed ties are significantly more likely to shift the match.

Here is a few examples of sets Misdreavus can run:

Bulky Attacker

Hide

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Destiny Bond / Nasty Plot

The Bulky Attacker set is the most common Misdreavus set, with Substitute + Nasty Plot coming close by. The great thing with this set, is that Misdreavus provides both support, while also being a powerful attacker. Physical attackers can get crippled by Will-O-Wisp, and Misdreavus is almost guaranteed to get atleast two KOes if played well, thanks to Destiny Bond. This set therefore works great as support for the rest of the team, while also hitting extremely hard thanks to Misdreavus's great Special Attack.

Substitute + Nasty Plot

Hide

Misdreavus @ Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

The SubNP set is also a common sight. Substitute allows Misdreavus to hide from status moves such as Thunder Wave, while it also eases prediction. Misdreavus is also having a lot of setup baits it can use Nasty Plot on. These include non-Calm Mind Spritzee, Ferroseed, Foongus, Defensive Archen, and many more. It is therefore very likely that you will easily find a opportunity to setup Nasty Plot on Misdreavus, and Misdreavus at +2 is extremely scary, especially later in the game. There are no counters for the SubNP set, thanks to the combination of Nasty Plot + Substitute + HP Fighting, which means normal counters like Porygon and Houndour can't safely switch in.

TrickSpecs/Scarf

​

Hide

Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf / Specs
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Trick

This set isn't as common as the Bulky Attacker and SubNP set, but still deserves a mention. Thanks to Trick, Misdreavus is a fantastic user of both Choice Scarf and Choice Specs. Choice Scarf means Misdreavus practically outpace everything, and is therefore a great surprise for Pawniard's who want to try and use Knock Off/Pursuit, and gets hit in the face and OHKOed by Hidden Power Fighting. Choice Specs gives Misdreavus immense power. After Misdreavus have done its job, it can use Trick on a wall, and cripple them with a Choice-item, while Misdreavus gets a Eviolite back. Misdreavus is therefore, thanks to Trick, a great user of Choice items.

1) Is Misdreavus broken? Yes; even if not very, Misdreavus is definitely broken. This is because of its great 60 / 60 / 85 mixed bulk, fantastic offensive stats with 85 Special Attack and 85 Speed, and a lot of unpredictability since it can run a ton of different sets, and the fact that the SubNP set basically has no counters. Therefore, Misdreavus needs to be banned.

// Fletchling //

45 HP / 50 Atk / 43 Def / 40 SpA / 38 SpD / 62 Spe / BST 278
​

Fletchling is, in my opinion, not even close to being broken. If we want to ban Fletchling, I feel as if we'll have come to the point where we ban many more things simply because we don't like them. Having a 110 Base Power STAB priority move is indeed very nice, and Fletchling is a great Pokemon, but it isn't that hard to deal with. Every well-built team needs a check to Fletchling; however, many of these is fairly easy to fit on to a team. It's not like Koffing, where you almost had to use for Swirlix, and was fairly hard to fit on to different types of teams, especially more offensive ones. Fletchling does, in my opinion, not restrict team building enough to deserve a ban. Fletchling can possibly get through all of its checks, but all of them are fairly easy to play around. It's not like Fletchling can use 3 items, Steel Wing, Hidden Power Grass, Hidden Power Fighting, Overheat, Acrobatics, Roost, Swords Dance, and U-turn at the same time. Fletchling can indeed run some of these moves, but how hard is it to deal with? First of all, Natural Gift + Berry is a one time use, and also means Fletchling only has a 55 Base Power Acrobatics until its berry is used. One misprediction, and the berry is wasted on the wrong Pokemon. Like Artemisa said, there is a ton of Fletchling checks, and they do other work fine too, and some of them can deal with Fletchling + Diglett too:

Frillish / Lileep / Porygon / Special Defensive Tirtouga / Magnemite / Chinchou / Snubbull / Slowpoke / Ferroseed / Ponyta / Pawniard / Lickitung / Archen / Shieldon / Amaura / Spritzee / Koffing

The argument of having to use "Chinchou and Archen" is thus incorrect. There are lots of different Pokemon who check Fletchling, and Fletchling makes underrated Pokemon even more worth using, giving the metagame more variety.

Moreover, some people are saying Fletchling can simply wear down its checks, but this isn't actually the case because between its frailty and weakness to Stealth Rock, it will often get worn down faster than its checks. Use Archen as an example. Archen can force Fletchling out, Fletchling can't force Archen out. After being forced out 3 times, Fletchling's health will be at around 25%, while Archen can use Roost against Fletchling, whereas due to Fletchling's low bulk, it will rarely find a opportunity to recover itself with Roost. The same goes for Chinchou, who can also force Fletchling out, while regaining health with Rest + Sleep Talk. Chinchou can also easily predict a incoming Diglett switch-in and use Scald. If the offensive pressure is high enough, Fletchling will not have time to use Roost, therefore having to deal with only be able to survive a few more switch-ins. As long as you have Stealth Rock on the opponent's field, you can easily wear Fletchling down, and deal with Fletchling + Diglett.

Another argument I often see is that "Fletchling offense makes the tier stale and unfun", but there are numerous other absolutely viable playstyles that don't necessarily involve Fletchling. Examples include Zigzagoon offense, Stall, and Omanyte offense, all of which aren't hurt by Fletchling's existence. And unlike other Pokemon that were banned for limiting playstyles, such as Shuckle and Deoxys-D, Fletching doesn't actually limit other archetypes. Shuckle wrecked non-Shuckle offense, but this isn't the case for Fletchling offense. The only archetype that is hurt by Fletchling's existence is Sun teams, but Fletchling also stabilizes these from being too powerful. I don't think Fletchling makes the meta less fun or diverse; I think we should simply be more creative. It's not like in RU, where you almost had to use Shuckle Offense, because it's so damn good. Rather, I feel Fletchling is a good option to use on my teams, but nowhere near mandatory.

1) Is Fletchling broken? Fletchling is not broken. Because of Fletchling's weak defenses and the fact that 50 Attack isn't exactly very powerful, there are many viable checks to Fletchling that can stop it, even at +2. Fletchling can use moves to get around its checks, but these are easy to play around and scout for.

2) Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun? I see that many people think Fletchling makes Little Cup stale and unfun, but I completely disagree. You are not limited to only using Chinchou and Archen as Fletchling checks; you have lots of choices. We shouldn't ban a Pokemon because you need to run a check; that is part of competitive Pokemon and teambuilding.

 

[Yagura]

1. I mentioned Mienfoo and Timburr because they have access to Knock Off, not necessarily as counters to Misdreavus. Both are useful if Misdreavus has low health, and can be knocked out.

2. You would be surprised on the amount of people that bring in Misdreavus even on a predicted Knock Off. It does happen, and isn't as rare as you may think it is (yes that is mostly on the lower part of the tier, but it still happens occasionally as you get higher up).

3. I would sack Mienfoo or Timburr if I knew that I could hit Misdreavus with a Knock Off, and then bring in another Pokemon to kill Misdreavus. It happens all the time, even with other Pokemon. For example, let's look at any Pokemon with a stat increase. If you know you wouldn't be able to take it down with one hit from one Pokemon, would you sack a Pokemon just in order to take it down and stop it from sweeping your team? I know I would. Sacrifice one to get damage off to save the game. The same applies in this case.

4. While there aren't necessarily safe switch ins to Misdreavus, you can at least try to predict what Misdreavus is going to do. If you think Misdreavus is going to use Shadown Ball, then you switch into a Normal type. If you think Dazzling Gleam is coming, well, basically everything is going to get hit by it, but you can minimize the damage. If you think HP Fighting is coming, switch into a Ghost or Flying type (to minimize damage). So yes, it is possible to switch into Misdreavus.

About #1: The problem is that you're saying that they can come into Misdreavus when it has a low health, it that case there'd be two scenarions: The first is that Misdreavus has already taken a Pokémon down while receiving also some damage, you send either of the Pokémon you mentioned, you receive at least 63% from Dazzling Gleam and you take Misdreavus down (Please note that only Pawniard has priority that can hit Misdreavus, but even then there'd be mindgames in case it has Will-o-Wisp). The second scenario is that you switch them in, take a hit and probably getting KOed unless you're running Scarf (Also, note that only Pawniard can safely switch into Shadow Ball and trap with Pursuit).

About #3: Any Pokémon that has no counters you'll be forced to sack something, there is a difference between Pokémon that are hard to be countered after setting up and Pokémon that don't have a real counter without the need of setting up.

About #4: You're listing checks, not counters. You're saying that you should be running a Normal Pokémon to be immune to Shadow Ball, a Pokémon that resists Dazzling Gleam and another one to resist HP Fighting; don't you think it's a bit too much to run 3 Pokémon just deal with another one? Yes there some Pokémon that can wall Misdreavus but they can get crippled with Taunt or become an easy setup bait.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Fletchling however is quite different. I know Fletchling can be prepared for. I know it is easy to check hard, And honestly the issue really isn't that it's broken. But, having a priority base 110 STAB move with pretty good coverage along with other coverage moves, access to Swords Dance, ect. make it not only a damn good cleaner that requires no set up, but simultaneously one of the most dangerous sweepers in the game when backed by a boost.

I don't think it's fair to just list Fletchling's strengths, as notable as they are; any Pokemon can be made to appear broken through that (as Artemis Fowl attempted to demonstrate through a post that I can no longer find). In fact, Fletchling's 110 base power Acrobatics is pretty much not only the reason why it's being suspected, but why it's even viable; if Fletchling was limited to an Aerial Ace off 50 base Attack, I don't think we'd actually see much of a difference between it being banned and otherwise at all. On top of its excellent strengths, a Pokemon should also have very few exploitable weaknesses if it is to be banworthy; this was the case for Gligar, where its weakness to ice was far outshined by its humongous bulk to actually allow it to avoid the OHKO from random Hidden Power Ices and use them to activate Berry Juice to fire off powerful Acrobatics, and for Misdreavus, where most Knock Off users are severely crippled by Will-O-Wisp or simply 2HKOed by an appropriate coverage move. Between is terrible defenses and unreliable coverage options, Fletchling has a ridiculous number of weaknesses that can easily be taken advantage of.

Another argument I often see is that "Fletchling offense makes the tier stale and unfun", but there are numerous other absolutely viable playstyles that don't necessarily involve Fletchling. Examples include Zigzagoon offense, Stall, and Omanyte offense, all of which aren't hurt by Fletchling's existence. And unlike other Pokemon that were banned for limiting playstyles, such as Shuckle and Deoxys-D, Fletching doesn't actually limit other archetypes. Shuckle wrecked non-Shuckle offense, but this isn't the case for Fletchling offense. The only archetype that is hurt by Fletchling's existence is Sun teams, but Fletchling also stabilizes these from being too powerful. I don't think Fletchling makes the meta less fun or diverse; I think we should simply be more creative. It's not like in RU, where you almost had to use Shuckle Offense, because it's so damn good. Rather, I feel Fletchling is a good option to use on my teams, but nowhere near mandatory.

I cannot stress how important Aerow's point is. Fletchling does not rule over the metagame with an iron fist, crushing all that don't worship it. There are so many options outside of Fletchling offense that are absolutely viable; in fact, I have personally experienced more success with various stall archetypes than Fletchling offense. Thanks to its gaping weaknesses, Fletchling doesn't actually prevent other archetypes from being viable. There will always be points where we're seeing hype for certain Pokemon more than others, and I think the Fletchling spam is just that: a matter of the playerbase, and not Fletchling itself.

 

[chimp]

Here are my thoughts.

Fletchling
I'm not calling anyone out here, but I think everyone seems to be focusing on the offensive presence that Gale Wings provides to Fletching. And that does make perfect sense, really. Having priority on 110BP (assuming you have no item, which seems to be the most popular set) STAB move is insane. However, as many posters have already pointed out, Fletchling DOES have a lot of counters. Prominent counters, too. Archen, Chinchou, Pawniard, Magnemite, Tirtouga...any rock type really. All great pokemon. However there is always a catch! Where Fletch's stats fail it (though 50 Atk is by no means bad) its movepool makes up for. Overheat, Flame Charge, U-turn, Natural Gift provide Fletchling with some scary tools to perhaps scare off one of its counters. Now, this only a problem from a team-building point of view. You can't rely just on Magnemite to counter Fletch, because if it hits you with a Overheat on the switch you're going to be in a very bad position. Even with no EVs, a HP Grass manages to put Tirtouga in a position to be 2KO'd. And of course, there is Natural Gift, providing even more physical coverage in... any type you need... while also giving Acrobatics its scary boost!

But as crazy as this sounds, I don't think Fletchling's greatest assets come from its pure offensive capabilities. Remember, it has priority on a very strong attack. This type of power comes at very little cost. It gives Fletchling the ability to stop and prevent many pokemon from sweeping or just doing their job in general. Sometimes I feel like I use fletch for more of a "defensive" presence. Foongus, Croagunk, Mienfoo, Cottonee, Scraggy... all colossal threats that may be very hard to kill. Fletchling does it easy, with almost no threat to itself. Not only this, but Fletchling's priority pretty much gives you a safeguard against many powerful offensive threats. An Abra who lost its sash has NO chance against Fletchling. A boosted Clamperl has NO chance. Sun Sweepers like Bellsprout and Oddish can't do their job well because of Fletchling. Torchic doesn't want to set up while Fletchling is around. Nor does Venipede. Gastly, Houndour, Vulpix, Drifloon. All offensive pokemon whose jobs are extremely hindered by Fletchling. Who can stop them with nearly no threat to itself, due to it having priority. I don't think Fletchling encourages Hyper Offensive play, it absolutely KILLS it. You need to pad your team with bulk to stop it. I understand the concept of a revenge killer, but its ridiculous how many pokemon Fletchling neuters. Now, I'm not particularly saying this makes it broken, but I think it needs to be kept in mind.

Fletchling:

In my opinion, Fletchling may be more of a problem than Misdreavus, but I also believe that Fletchling can be beat. Gale Wings is what really makes Fletchling a problem in LC. Having priority access to all flying moves, really can make Fletchling stay around a lot longer than it should since its defense and special defense are not great. That being said though, my reasons for Fletchling not being banned are because of the following Pokemon being pretty common in LC:

Chinchou
Pawniard
Misdreavus

My reason for these Mons being here are that they can all survive priority Acrobatics:

(Note: These calcs are all without an item on Fletchling)

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Pawniard: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO
(And my personal favorite) 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 4-6 (16 - 24%) -- possible 5HKO

They also have moves that can cripple Fletching, if not OHKO (I also know that Thunderbolt is rare on Misdreavus, but with Fletchling becoming more popular, we may see it becoming more common):

236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 13-17 (56.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Ever more common nowadays, teams are running Stealth Rock which severely cripples Fletchling. Using the same three Mons above, I will run the same calcs as I did before:

236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
152 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fletchling is able to beat by common Mons in the tier, in my opinion and I do not believe it should be banned.

In regards to your calcs, Misdreavus has pretty much no reason to run thunderbolt except for the bird. Also, I don't want to sound snarky, but no one is going to keep their Fletching in to take a Volt Switch. It will switch or U-turn out. Additionally, since Fletchling forces so many switches from so many pokemon, it can easily predict and use U-turn or Natural Gift. I don't think calcs in general provide a very good argument unless its being used to show the pokemon-in-question's (in this situation Fletchling) offensive power (or in other words, other pokemon's ability to take hits from fletchling).

am I the only one that has had games where it is just completely useless? I am not trying to sway opinion in either direction, but I wanted to bring that up. I have had games where Fletchling just is 100% shut down because of my opponent's Archen, and I have had games where the combination of Chinchou and Pawniard made things impossible for it as well. I have never used Fletchling + Diglett in tandem, but there are still Pokemon that Diglett cannot trap that really hurt Fletchling (Archen, Tirtouga, Pawniard with rocks breaking Diglett's sash, Slowpoke). Like, I've seen some crazy Fletchling sweeps but that is primarily from teams that were just super underprepared for it. I don't feel comfortable with saying it can sweep through teams when there are so many checks for it, and when it requires entire teams of support (such as Zigzagoon) to be crazy effective.

I agree with you here, but I don't think its really a question of whether or not Fletchling is "broken." Because it is definitely not, atleast not in the same ways as Sneasel or Tangela. But there becomes a point where every team on the ladder has an Archen or Chinchou where one has to stop and realize that something is probably wrong. I don't think Fletchling is broken, cause its is pretty easy to stop it's sweeps, but I do think its making LC a less fun/competitive metagame. Using Fletchling, to me, is a high reward, low risk strategy. Due to the aforementioned ability to stop a lot of offensive threats, U-turn, and having a base 110 priority move, a healing move, and 15 attack. All I can say is... thank God Flying Gem is unreleased...

Another argument I often see is that "Fletchling offense makes the tier stale and unfun", but there are numerous other absolutely viable playstyles that don't necessarily involve Fletchling. Examples include Zigzagoon offense, Stall, and Omanyte offense, all of which aren't hurt by Fletchling's existence. And unlike other Pokemon that were banned for limiting playstyles, such as Shuckle and Deoxys-D, Fletching doesn't actually limit other archetypes. Shuckle wrecked non-Shuckle offense, but this isn't the case for Fletchling offense. The only archetype that is hurt by Fletchling's existence is Sun teams, but Fletchling also stabilizes these from being too powerful. I don't think Fletchling makes the meta less fun or diverse; I think we should simply be more creative. It's not like in RU, where you almost had to use Shuckle Offense, because it's so damn good. Rather, I feel Fletchling is a good option to use on my teams, but nowhere near mandatory.

I'm not too familiar with RU, so I don't know what Shuckle-Offense was like, but there is never any play-style that is so good that it becomes mandatory to run. It is never mandatory to run anything. This is a free country! But the question boils down to... why not? Why NOT run Fletchling? There is like no reason to not add it on your team. It has very little downsides that aren't mitigated by one of its strengths. Fletchling is great not only on Hyper Offensive teams, but Bulky and Stall as well. It being the #4 most used pokemon in the 1760 stats and #5 in the regular is a testament to how viable it is, on pretty much every team archetype.

Misdreavus
I don't really have much to say here that hasn't already been said. Its great. Its really really great. Its strong, fast, needs little support while providing huge amount of it and can get around all of its counters. You are never safe when Misdreavus is around.

I'll admit that I never had any real "trouble" with dealing with it, but my main gripe is that makes all other ghost pokemon pretty much useless. The greatest tip for anyone wanting to use Duskull or Frillish? "Just use Misdreavus." I don't know if this stands any ground for banning it, though.

Side Note:
The real problem to both Fletchling and Misdreavus is that Pawniard is so common in the tier, and counters both of their types. Yes both have moves that can wreck Pawniard, but Pawniard is a bigger threat to both of them.

The problem here is that Misdreavus has A LOT of sets. Scarf Pawniard will lose to a Scarf Misdreavus if its running HP Fighting. Unless, Pawn runs Sucker Punch but imo thats not as good as you forfeit a lot of utility that Pursuit or coverage that Brick Break provides. Offensive Misdreavus can force mindgames with Substitute or Wil-o-Wisp and can easily get a KO with HP Fighting, even unboosted. Fletchling has Overheat and Natural, while neither KO, its enough to put Pawn in the danger zone so its whittled down by hazards or Fletch will just acrobatics for the KO.

 

[Lord Alphose]

Where Fletch's stats fail it (though 50 Atk is by no means bad) its movepool makes up for. Overheat, Flame Charge, U-turn, Natural Gift provide Fletchling with some scary tools to perhaps scare off one of its counters. Now, this only a problem from a team-building point of view. You can't rely just on Magnemite to counter Fletch, because if it hits you with a Overheat on the switch you're going to be in a very bad position. Even with no EVs, a HP Grass manages to put Tirtouga in a position to be 2KO'd. And of course, there is Natural Gift, providing even more physical coverage in... any type you need... while also giving Acrobatics its scary boost!

At the moment, I am somewhat ambivalent on whether or not Fletchling should be banned, but this argument is illogical, I'm seeing it everywhere, and it's frustrating me. Yeah, you're right, it gets Acrobatics, Swords Dance, U-turn, Roost, Overheat, Flame Charge, Hidden Power [type](Yeah, you can run how many different types), and Natural Gift(which is split it up in many ways depending on what's needed.) It's almost reminiscent of the arguments that Meditite could have whatever moves it needed to block it's counters. Right? Wrong. While Meditite ran Drain Punch + 3 coverage moves, Fletchling is almost required to fun Acrobatics, Swords Dance, and Roost or U-turn. It's kind of necessary. Leaving you with one slot for a coverage move. Don't you wish you could carry all of these moves plus all the berries you could hold to give you the ability to get around all your counters? Honestly, go look at some usage stats. The only one of these coverage moves that is used is Overheat. Less than 12% Hidden Power Grass usage. The usage on Natural Gift isn't even notably large enough(inb4 "USAGE DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT WE CAN USE".). Yes, I realize that just because people don't use it doesn't mean people can't use it. But it does mean that people don't use it, which should probably mean something to you.

 

[Dubby_Tee]

Here are my thoughts



In regards to your calcs, Misdreavus has pretty much no reason to run thunderbolt except for the bird. Also, I don't want to sound snarky, but no one is going to keep their Fletching in to take a Volt Switch. It will switch or U-turn out. Additionally, since Fletchling forces so many switches from so many pokemon, it can easily predict and use U-turn or Natural Gift. I don't think calcs in general provide a very good argument unless its being used to show the pokemon-in-question's (in this situation Fletchling) offensive power (or in other words, other pokemon's ability to take hits from fletchling).

I provided the Misdreavus T-bolt calc just to show that if Fletchling stays around, then we might be seeing more T-bolts on Misdreavus. And I provided the Chinchou calc because in my opinion, it is the best counter to Fletchling. Of course no one is going to leave their Fletchling in against Chinchou as fodder. But there are circumstances where Fletchling has to stay in (ie it is the last pokemon on your opponent's team).

I also did show calcs about how certain Pokemon can take hits from Fletchling.

 

[Camden]

At the moment, I am somewhat ambivalent on whether or not Fletchling should be banned, but this argument is illogical, I'm seeing it everywhere, and it's frustrating me. Yeah, you're right, it gets Acrobatics, Swords Dance, U-turn, Roost, Overheat, Flame Charge, Hidden Power [type](Yeah, you can run how many different types), and Natural Gift(which is split it up in many ways depending on what's needed.) It's almost reminiscent of the arguments that Meditite could have whatever moves it needed to block it's counters. Right? Wrong. While Meditite ran Drain Punch + 3 coverage moves, Fletchling is almost required to fun Acrobatics, Swords Dance, and Roost or U-turn. It's kind of necessary. Leaving you with one slot for a coverage move. Don't you wish you could carry all of these moves plus all the berries you could hold to give you the ability to get around all your counters? Honestly, go look at some usage stats. The only one of these coverage moves that is used is Overheat. Less than 12% Hidden Power Grass usage. The usage on Natural Gift isn't even notably large enough(inb4 "USAGE DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT WE CAN USE".). Yes, I realize that just because people don't use it doesn't mean people can't use it. But it does mean that people don't use it, which should probably mean something to you.

See, this was the issue I have with Fletchling. Sure, it's got great moves to push past its checks, but it has 4MSS issues. Sure, we can argue that Meditite had 4MSS issues, but the checks that presented those problems were generally less than viable Pokemon. The Pokemon that more often than not gave him trouble were Psychic-type Pokemon not named Abra. With Fletchling, if it's not carrying it's particular "check move", it's getting walled by a good Pokemon, i.e. Archen, Tirtouga, Chinchou, Pawniard, Magnemite, Elekid, Omanyte, etc.

Oh, and don't start using nothing but moves I suggested earlier. You can run an Acro/Overheat/HP Grass/Steel Wing Fletch, but do you really wanna give up Swords Dance/U-turn/Roost? It's possible to run Fletch without them, but you hurt your momentum too much.

 

[Aerow]

But as crazy as this sounds, I don't think Fletchling's greatest assets come from its pure offensive capabilities. Remember, it has priority on a very strong attack. This type of power comes at very little cost. It gives Fletchling the ability to stop and prevent many pokemon from sweeping or just doing their job in general. Sometimes I feel like I use fletch for more of a "defensive" presence. Foongus, Croagunk, Mienfoo, Cottonee, Scraggy... all colossal threats that may be very hard to kill. Fletchling does it easy, with almost no threat to itself. Not only this, but Fletchling's priority pretty much gives you a safeguard against many powerful offensive threats. An Abra who lost its sash has NO chance against Fletchling. A boosted Clamperl has NO chance. Sun Sweepers like Bellsprout and Oddish can't do their job well because of Fletchling. Torchic doesn't want to set up while Fletchling is around. Nor does Venipede. Gastly, Houndour, Vulpix, Drifloon. All offensive pokemon whose jobs are extremely hindered by Fletchling. Who can stop them with nearly no threat to itself, due to it having priority. I don't think Fletchling encourages Hyper Offensive play, it absolutely KILLS it. You need to pad your team with bulk to stop it. I understand the concept of a revenge killer, but its ridiculous how many pokemon Fletchling neuters. Now, I'm not particularly saying this makes it broken, but I think it needs to be kept in mind.

Fletchling actually has a very large cost associated to it, because it can barely switch in on anything. Fletchling is anything but a no cost Pokemon, because of how difficult it is to actually get Fletchling into play. Fletchling doesn't actually fit onto stall at all either. There are also lots of Fletchling checks, such as Archen, Tirtouga, and Omanyte that are easily fitted onto a hyper offense team.

I'm not too familiar with RU, so I don't know what Shuckle-Offense was like, but there is never any play-style that is so good that it becomes mandatory to run. It is never mandatory to run anything. This is a free country! But the question boils down to... why not? Why NOT run Fletchling? There is like no reason to not add it on your team. It has very little downsides that aren't mitigated by one of its strengths. Fletchling is great not only on Hyper Offensive teams, but Bulky and Stall as well. It being the #4 most used pokemon in the 1760 stats and #5 in the regular is a testament to how viable it is, on pretty much every team archetype.

The difference between Fletchling offense and Shuckle offense, is that Shuckle offense was almost too good to not run, whereas there are playstyles that are just as good as Fletchling offense, and therefore just as worth running.

 

[Artemisa]

People seem to be missing that you don't need an Archen or Chinchou on every team just to beat Fletchling. There is good amount of non-niche mons that can be run on a team and that list was already made.

I get people don't like the stale meta, but how can certain people talk when all they run is standard. You can't put the blame on Fletchling just because teams are Missy / Pawn / Fletch / Chinchou / filler / filler or some variant of that, the players run it because it's good. If something is good then why not run it, I'm pretty sure that's why people run chinchou / mienfoo / foongus / pawn / etc on most of their teams.

Also idk about others, but when I use a Tirtouga to beat fletch or normals/flying in general, I use sp def tirtouga w/ solid rock. Last tome HP Grass did about 30% or more.