Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[dsr95]

Ah, the 3-golden question...
I'll be simple and honest, most of my points were covered by the rest of the users, so I'll quote a few of them and express myself, while trying not to make a new Twilight book.

Well, here we have the damsel in distress, although if you're facing this thing in battle, you're probably the one in distress. Misdreavus' is on a large number of teams, with good reason since it has all the good qualities of an offensive threat, and also has what it takes to be used defensively. It can fulfill the role of a cleric, spinblocker, setup sweeper, support and it has the ability to beat majority of its checks through the use of a few different moves or a different move-set overall (speaking of which, it uses about 3-4 different sets with different options). Defensively, it has Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split for semi-reliable recovery (since it's fast enough to use it) and a fast Taunt. So to sum up everything, this thing beats pretty much all its checks majority of the time through the use of Taunt/Substitute/Nasty Plot/Will-O-Wisp (or you can use Destiny Bond and take something down you can't kill under the current circumstances), it has the second highest speed tier available, it can be used defensively... It can do many roles and sweep you off guard if you don't know what it's going to do to you. Also, this thing pretty much overshadows (get it?) pretty much all the other ghost types. With the only other ghost types being able to be used in LC being Gastly because of its secondary STAB and more powerful attacks. On the rest of the traits, it's outclassed.

Here we have that little friend who shits on your car right after you wash it... But that shouldn't be your reason to ban it, nor do I feel like there's any other reason to ban it. Why?
"1. Fletchling’s methods of getting around its checks are either extremely weak or incredibly easy to play around."
You use Natural Gift and run a bad berry and you have to depend on a prediction to pull that off and nail the switch-in. If you miss the prediction you lose the berry forever and can't handle the check with Fletchling, so you need your teammates to take care of the checks.
"2. Regardless of what coverage options Fletchling chooses to run, the sheer number of completely viable Pokemon that are still able to beat individual Fletchling sets is far more than that of any other LC suspect to date."
Rock types, Steel types and Electric Types pretty much take care of Fletchling, so that's a lot of checks, and having to be paired up with Diglett in order for most of them to be removed sort of gives away that it needs support to function. Also this thing doesn't restrict teambuilding as much as people want to make it seem since there's so many checks to it. The only pokemon I see being hurt from Fletchling being in the metagame is Snover, pretty much. Other birds have their niche such as the wall-breaker Doduo, Specs Taillow, Support Vullaby and Archen so it's not making them look like they're horrible compared to Fletchling.

2) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
Little Cup is always fun. It's cutemons ffs.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
For the 4th time, I think the presence of "FUCK MISDREAVUS/FLETCHLING" has been present at some point. I don't think it's made anyone quit, though.

Clear decision: BAN MISDREAVUS and the new Subway motto: SUBWAY, KEEP FLETCH.

 

[fitzy72]

Cntrl +F natural gift brought up 17 results on page 1 and 17 on page 2 so far. Why? It isn't actually used by anyone according to http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-06/moveset/lc-1760.0.txt with 2.656% of other items which includes things like LO Fletch and Eviolite.

It's a downright bad choice to use this as you no longer have access to instant 110BP Priority stab which makes Fletchling scary cutting it in half. You are also weaker to Knock Off as it will do extra damage and stop you from being able to consume the berry. It actually doesn't manage to beat defensive Chinchou without an SD first and doesn't even OHKO Scarf Pawniard unboosted with no prior damage. Endure Magnemite also manages to beat this move as Fletchling can only use it once a match.

196+ Atk Apicot Berry Fletchling Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)

196+ Atk Apicot Berry Fletchling Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Pawniard: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

196+ Atk Apicot Berry Fletchling Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)

Not even going to talk about Grass type Natural Gift as it doesn't have as it hits chinchou the sameand HP grass is good if your really so scared about the Water/Rocks.

tl;dr Natural Gift not worth a moveslot

 

[fatty]

i would just like to say that i hope all of these arguments are based off of actual experience rather than theorymon and this "analytically thinking" i have heard about in the thread. pokemon is not about analytical thinking, if that was the case all we would have to do it show each other our teams and decide who would win from there. sorry, that's not how it works. you actually have to go out there and win / lose some games to determine what works and what doesn't, and what's broken as opposed to what's not. this list of pokemon thats been referenced a couple times towards "beating" fletchling is exactly what i'm talking about....

Frillish / Lileep / Porygon / Special Defensive Tirtouga / Magnemite / Chinchou / Snubbull / Slowpoke / Ferroseed / Ponyta / Pawniard / Lickitung / Archen / Shieldon / Amaura / Spritzee / Koffing / Bronzor /

some of these mons are complete shit like wtf, and half don't even do what you guys are saying they do lol. yeah they may win 1v1, but again, thats not how it works. fletchling is going to be coming in on something and forcing it out, and that's when you have to start dealing with it. this means tanking an acro, coming in on a sd, or just taking a uturn and letting fletch just rack up some damage. this invalidates half of the pokemon on that list.

frillish - um yeah you're going to have to be constantly recovering just to keep up if this is your fletch check, it doesnt resist and has sub par defense.
lileep - again, it doesnt resist, so its going the have to recover constantly or else risk being 3hkod, not to mention +2 fletch 2hkoes where as ancientpower can't ohko
porygon - yep same thing, although pory does have better bulk to take acro. nevertheless, +2 fletch 2hkos where pory can't ohko.
tirtouga - ok finally, something that does actually beat fletch :) o wait hp grass LoL
magnemite - another good fletch check, but overheat sucks. ill give it to you tho.
chinchou - probably the best fletch check, even tho return hurts.
snubbull - acro still hurts like a motherfucker, snubbull is easy af to wear down, and if u dont want to wear it down u can just sd and +1 acro 2hkos where play rough cant ohko
slowpoke - so you switch in and hope for scald burn? acro +uturn sucks, sd 2hkos. i don't see how this beats fletch.
ferroseed - lol wtf, this doesnt beat fletch in the slightest.
ponyta - um acro 2hkos most of the time, and sd just goes right through if sr is on the field. you have to hope for flame body lol
pawniard - pawn is a weak check at best, it can't ohko with any move and acro will wear it down fast to the point where u can't check it anymore.
lickitung - what does this do? dtail and wait to get swept later?
archen - another good check, but defeatist + sr weak make it rather risky even.
shieldon - shieldon was good back when glig and swirlix were around, but if you're having to use shieldon now to beat fletch then im sorry, you're wasting a slot.
amaura - again, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel and is sr weak.
spritzee - +2 fletch 2hkos, spritz is going to be switching in on fighters and will most likely be knocked off anyways lol and all u can do is moonblast which can only 2hkos.
koffing - no fly resist and no recovery makes this a p weak check, has to land a wow, but idk what fletch is staying in to eat that.
bronzor - this can't do anything back and again easy af to wear down.

from what i can see, there's only a select few pokemon that can reliably check fletch, and none of the can really be considered counters. i'lll post back later on my actual reasonings towards fletch and missy.

 

[zf]

Aerow just said basically everything regarding Misdreavus that can be said, but here are a few points I really want to stress.

Misdreavus has multiple viable sets, each with different counters. In addition to having some of the highest stats in LC, Missy can utilize multiple sets to beat certain pokemon. Misdreavus' standard set is Nasty Plot, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, and Will-O-Wisp. The best way to handle this set are bulky normal types like Porygon and Lickitung or revenge killing it with a Scarfmon. However, a simple change of Taunt>WoW or HP Fighting>Dazzling Gleam means that the bulky normal types get beaten. My point here is Missy's checks change depending on the moveset, and you can never be sure what set it is until its too late.

Misdreavus is fast. Misdreavus hits 19 speed, which outspeeds the majority of the tier. This means you need a scarfer that can actually KO it to revenge kill or multiple strong priority users, limiting all switch-ins that don't want to die or be crippled to defensive mons, most of which are setup fodder for Missy. That's a very limited pool of options, and within that limited pool, nothing is a guaranteed counter.

Even uninvested, Misdreavus has great bulk. 60/60/85 bulk is simply amazing. Combined with Misdreavus' ability to force switches and 3 immunities, it can find ample opportunities to setup. Missy's bulk also means it is hard to revenge kill, with only 3 scarfers able to OHKO it on a consistent basis (Pawniard, Adamant Cranidos/Deino).

Misdreavus is obv broken af.

I'll post on Fletchling later, who I also deem as broken.

 

[boo836]

I don't think it's fair to just list Fletchling's strengths, as notable as they are; any Pokemon can be made to appear broken through that (as Artemis Fowl attempted to demonstrate through a post that I can no longer find). In fact, Fletchling's 110 base power Acrobatics is pretty much not only the reason why it's being suspected, but why it's even viable; if Fletchling was limited to an Aerial Ace off 50 base Attack, I don't think we'd actually see much of a difference between it being banned and otherwise at all. On top of its excellent strengths, a Pokemon should also have very few exploitable weaknesses if it is to be banworthy; this was the case for Gligar, where its weakness to ice was far outshined by its humongous bulk to actually allow it to avoid the OHKO from random Hidden Power Ices and use them to activate Berry Juice to fire off powerful Acrobatics, and for Misdreavus, where most Knock Off users are severely crippled by Will-O-Wisp or simply 2HKOed by an appropriate coverage move. Between is terrible defenses and unreliable coverage options, Fletchling has a ridiculous number of weaknesses that can easily be taken advantage of.

I cannot stress how important Aerow's point is. Fletchling does not rule over the metagame with an iron fist, crushing all that don't worship it. There are so many options outside of Fletchling offense that are absolutely viable; in fact, I have personally experienced more success with various stall archetypes than Fletchling offense. Thanks to its gaping weaknesses, Fletchling doesn't actually prevent other archetypes from being viable. There will always be points where we're seeing hype for certain Pokemon more than others, and I think the Fletchling spam is just that: a matter of the playerbase, and not Fletchling itself.

I'm not going to deny that Fletchling has a lot of weaknesses. I'm not going to deny that there are ways to get around Fletchling. Does Fletchling have only one thing that really makes people consider it to be ban worthy? But, you don't seem to understand that the point behind Fletchling is that this feature is absurdly amazing. Priority has a major role in pokemon because of the near guarantee of bypassing an important stat in Pokemon.

Do note that those playstyles became popular just because it was Damn near impossible for Fletch to check. When you've got numerous top players talking about how you can't have too many checks to Fletch, how well supported Fletch teams will still easily break through. You certainly can't say that's wrong, because Fletchling has the tendency to 2HKO nearly anything that doesn't resist Flying. Most people only carry one Misdreavus check, which goes to show that raw strength isn't really everything to ban something for.

 

[Eren Yeagar]

Well I'm a little late to the party aren't I? Well , let's discuss misdreavus first.

Misdreavus, the most common LC poke right now and with its utility, you can see why it is.Misdreavus is most times a big threat to every team. You can run an eviolite set which makes missy's average defence and above average special defence skyrocket which means it can take almost any unboosted move you launch it at. Misdreavus can also do a stall set(you really shouldn't) with a movepool that has will-o-wisp, taunt,and many other threatiening moves. Misdreavus' best set is its hyper offensive sets. You do the eviolite set so you can tank hits and set up nasty plots with awesome hard hitting moves such as shadow ball,dazzling gleam,psychic,thunderbolt,and hp fighting for coverage on those annoying porygons. A new and devastating set is also rising that uses berry juice and substitute to help misdreavus set up nasty plots on predicted switches. This in my opinion is WAY better in the eviolite set since you get protection from substitute and you can also scout with a substitute up. Misdreavus can take down almost every poke in LC with a nasty plot up and its incredible speed. Be careful of scarf pawniards though. SHOULD IT BE BANNED?: YES. It is (or one of) the biggest threat in the metagame.

Now, let's talk about fletchling.

Oh man, look at this cute bird... THAT WILL DESTROY YOUR LIVES! Fletchling, like misdreavus up there ^ is one of the biggest threats in the metagame. Much like senior talonflame over there in OU, these birds are the BEST revenge killers in their own tier. Priority gale wings and acrobatics from this bird with +2 attack from swords dance can almost kill the entire metagame. But power does come with a consequence. Much like all flying types in LC, stealth rocks is a huge problem to fletch like what Slashari said. It can roost up the damage it took, but since fletchling is very frail,it'll just die to the next incoming move. It is a HUGE problem with fletchling , which makes teams with fletch have a rapid spinner or a defogger. Now, let's move to positive stuff. Fletchling has a good,shallow movepool consisting of u-turn(Great momentum),swords dance (awesome set up),and if you want to be kind of original, try the natural gift set with a berry that can hit fletch's walls such as archen and tirtouga.Overall, fletchling is awesome int his metagame, but I think that its flaws should let it stay in LC since like 90% of teams have a poke that set up rocks.SHOULD IT BE BANNED: NO.

Do these two make LC not fun?: Well, LC is supposed to be fun, and i believe that these 2 still make it fun.Sure, you see these pokes every day, but that doesn't ruin it.It's the strategys you put in LC; making better teams;finding out new things;evolving into a competitive player-- these are the key to having fun to pokemon and be a good player. It doesn't matter about overpowered pokes like these two, you can beat them; they're not invincible.Plus, LC is cute af :P.You're bound to have fun :). Sorry if this question is a little unprofessional.I just type things that immediately come out of my mind for this question.

Do players quit LC because of this?:Well, much like the question up there i wrote, to be a dedicated and good competitive battler, you got to have fun. Plus, I never saw a PS player quit any tier before.

 

[chimp]

At the moment, I am somewhat ambivalent on whether or not Fletchling should be banned, but this argument is illogical, I'm seeing it everywhere, and it's frustrating me. Yeah, you're right, it gets Acrobatics, Swords Dance, U-turn, Roost, Overheat, Flame Charge, Hidden Power [type](Yeah, you can run how many different types), and Natural Gift(which is split it up in many ways depending on what's needed.) It's almost reminiscent of the arguments that Meditite could have whatever moves it needed to block it's counters. Right? Wrong. While Meditite ran Drain Punch + 3 coverage moves, Fletchling is almost required to fun Acrobatics, Swords Dance, and Roost or U-turn. It's kind of necessary. Leaving you with one slot for a coverage move. Don't you wish you could carry all of these moves plus all the berries you could hold to give you the ability to get around all your counters? Honestly, go look at some usage stats. The only one of these coverage moves that is used is Overheat. Less than 12% Hidden Power Grass usage. The usage on Natural Gift isn't even notably large enough(inb4 "USAGE DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT WE CAN USE".). Yes, I realize that just because people don't use it doesn't mean people can't use it. But it does mean that people don't use it, which should probably mean something to you.

I wasn't really using that argument to show why /I/ think its broken, I was just really summarizing the arguments for Fletchling's offensive presence.
I agree with you. I don't think Fletchling is broken on offensive merit alone. Also, typing something in all caps and slapping "inb4" in front of it doesn't make it a bad argument. Yes, I am totally aware that those sets are not used often. But just because they aren't used does not mean they are not good. Endure Mag is only used 11% of the time, yet imo its a fantastic set. Acrobatics is only used on 15% of Mienfoo. Rest is only at 17.7% for Chinchou. See what am I getting at here?

I provided the Misdreavus T-bolt calc just to show that if Fletchling stays around, then we might be seeing more T-bolts on Misdreavus.

Fletchling has been in long enough for players to start adapting that way if they so wish. Misdreavus can be successful at stopping Fletchling with T-bolt if it wants to, but thats an objectively bad strategy since it hinders Misdreavus moreso than it helps, since Missy is still going to be taking ~45% anyway.

Fletchling actually has a very large cost associated to it, because it can barely switch in on anything. Fletchling is anything but a no cost Pokemon, because of how difficult it is to actually get Fletchling into play. Fletchling doesn't actually fit onto stall at all either. There are also lots of Fletchling checks, such as Archen, Tirtouga, and Omanyte that are easily fitted onto a hyper offense team

Not if its being used as a revenge killer who can literally stop almost every single sweeper in the tier.
Like what you said about the Shucke-offense being "too good not to run." Fletchling gives the player a fail-safe against almost every type of offensive sweeper bar Rock/Water Shell Smashers. Its like Sash Abra only without the threat of it being revenged killed as well. Where as Sashbra only works once, Fletchling remains the best revenge killer throughout the game because it will generally always go first.

• Sun Teams
• Torchic Pass (Baton Pass in general)
• Fighting Offensive
• Scarfed Pokemon
• Speed Boost
• Destiny Bond reliant Pokemon

All team/pokemon archetypes that are deathly afraid of Fletchling. Why would you want to give up the ability to check all these types of pokemon by not running Fletchling? Not to mention you also get a good sweeper who can also built momentum with U-Turn. All on the single set. What more could you ask for?

 

[Slashari]

I wasn't really using that argument to show why /I/ think its broken, I was just really summarizing the arguments for Fletchling's offensive presence.
I agree with you. I don't think Fletchling is broken on offensive merit alone. Also, typing something in all caps and slapping "inb4" in front of it doesn't make it a bad argument. Yes, I am totally aware that those sets are not used often. But just because they aren't used does not mean they are not good. Endure Mag is only used 11% of the time, yet imo its a fantastic set. Acrobatics is only used on 15% of Mienfoo. Rest is only at 17.7% for Chinchou. See what am I getting at here?


Fletchling has been in long enough for players to start adapting that way if they so wish. Misdreavus can be successful at stopping Fletchling with T-bolt if it wants to, but thats an objectively bad strategy since it hinders Misdreavus moreso than it helps, since Missy is still going to be taking ~45% anyway.


Not if its being used as a revenge killer who can literally stop almost every single sweeper in the tier.
Like what you said about the Shucke-offense being "too good not to run." Fletchling gives the player a fail-safe against almost every type of offensive sweeper bar Rock/Water Shell Smashers. Its like Sash Abra only without the threat of it being revenged killed as well. Where as Sashbra only works once, Fletchling remains the best revenge killer throughout the game because it will generally always go first.

• Sun Teams
• Torchic Pass (Baton Pass in general)
• Fighting Offensive
• Scarfed Pokemon
• Speed Boost
• Destiny Bond reliant Pokemon

All team/pokemon archetypes that are deathly afraid of Fletchling. Why would you want to give up the ability to check all these types of pokemon by not running Fletchling? Not to mention you also get a good sweeper who can also built momentum with U-Turn. All on the single set. What more could you ask for?

But what you need to realize is that a large portion of those team archetypes you listed are still quite popular in this metagame dominated by Fletchling. Pokémon like Mienfoo, sun teams, etc. are still seeing decent usage despite Fletchling's presence.I believe that this is a true testament to showing that Fletch isn't broken.

Sure U-turn provides momentum, but if SR are up, Fletchling is greatly hindered, as it can't pivot in and out as much as it would like. I'm not denying that Fletch is a great revenge killer, but it can easily be stopped by its many checks.

 

[boo836]

Also can we please stop acting as if Fletchling has multiple moves well beyond the for limit? Possibilities are alright to consider, but stop acting like weird shit like Natural Gift is actually used. Similarly, don't act like it only has room for one coverage move.

Furthermore, don't act like random Pokes are good arguments. If you seriously think Bronzor is a legit Pokemon, you can just stop.

Let's be reasonable, people.

 

[OP]

i would just like to say that i hope all of these arguments are based off of actual experience rather than theorymon and this "analytically thinking" i have heard about in the thread. pokemon is not about analytical thinking, if that was the case all we would have to do it show each other our teams and decide who would win from there. sorry, that's not how it works. you actually have to go out there and win / lose some games to determine what works and what doesn't, and what's broken as opposed to what's not. this list of pokemon thats been referenced a couple times towards "beating" fletchling is exactly what i'm talking about....

Frillish / Lileep / Porygon / Special Defensive Tirtouga / Magnemite / Chinchou / Snubbull / Slowpoke / Ferroseed / Ponyta / Pawniard / Lickitung / Archen / Shieldon / Amaura / Spritzee / Koffing / Bronzor /

some of these mons are complete shit like wtf, and half don't even do what you guys are saying they do lol. yeah they may win 1v1, but again, thats not how it works. fletchling is going to be coming in on something and forcing it out, and that's when you have to start dealing with it. this means tanking an acro, coming in on a sd, or just taking a uturn and letting fletch just rack up some damage. this invalidates half of the pokemon on that list.

frillish - um yeah you're going to have to be constantly recovering just to keep up if this is your fletch check, it doesnt resist and has sub par defense.
lileep - again, it doesnt resist, so its going the have to recover constantly or else risk being 3hkod, not to mention +2 fletch 2hkoes where as ancientpower can't ohko
porygon - yep same thing, although pory does have better bulk to take acro. nevertheless, +2 fletch 2hkos where pory can't ohko.
tirtouga - ok finally, something that does actually beat fletch :) o wait hp grass LoL
magnemite - another good fletch check, but overheat sucks. ill give it to you tho.
chinchou - probably the best fletch check, even tho return hurts.
snubbull - acro still hurts like a motherfucker, snubbull is easy af to wear down, and if u dont want to wear it down u can just sd and +1 acro 2hkos where play rough cant ohko
slowpoke - so you switch in and hope for scald burn? acro +uturn sucks, sd 2hkos. i don't see how this beats fletch.
ferroseed - lol wtf, this doesnt beat fletch in the slightest.
ponyta - um acro 2hkos most of the time, and sd just goes right through if sr is on the field. you have to hope for flame body lol
pawniard - pawn is a weak check at best, it can't ohko with any move and acro will wear it down fast to the point where u can't check it anymore.
lickitung - what does this do? dtail and wait to get swept later?
archen - another good check, but defeatist + sr weak make it rather risky even.
shieldon - shieldon was good back when glig and swirlix were around, but if you're having to use shieldon now to beat fletch then im sorry, you're wasting a slot.
amaura - again, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel and is sr weak.
spritzee - +2 fletch 2hkos, spritz is going to be switching in on fighters and will most likely be knocked off anyways lol and all u can do is moonblast which can only 2hkos.
koffing - no fly resist and no recovery makes this a p weak check, has to land a wow, but idk what fletch is staying in to eat that.
bronzor - this can't do anything back and again easy af to wear down.

from what i can see, there's only a select few pokemon that can reliably check fletch, and none of the can really be considered counters. i'lll post back later on my actual reasonings towards fletch and missy.

To add on to Alphose's post, that's not even a complete list of Fletchling checks. There's many others:

Onix: Either you acrobatics on the switch and are then outsped and killed, or you HP Grass and Onix heals back to full health with Berry Juice.
Cranidos: None of Fletchling's moves are particularly damaging and it now immediately poses a huge threat to your team.
Tyrunt: Slightly obscure pokemon but it's still effective at what it does and Fletchling can't do anything to it.
Omanyte: Acrobatics+HP Grass doesn't kill and it immediately threatens with Ice Beam.
Elekid: Now elekid is more prone to being worn down, I'll definitely give you that. In return it shifts the momentum of the game and poses as a larger threat to the opposing team than others might.

There's probably even more that I'm missing, but the point is you're leaving out counters, and some of the pokemon you dismissed as being bad checks or are easily worn down simply aren't as Alphose showed.

 

[Superpowerdude]

For the record, please don't just post your thoughts and stop--it would be most beneficial to respond to other people's arguments. Not only does that make this an effective discussion, but it makes you that much of a better candidate for a council position.

As for me, I am not going to say anything about Misdreavus, but in regards to Fletchling: am I the only one that has had games where it is just completely useless? I am not trying to sway opinion in either direction, but I wanted to bring that up. I have had games where Fletchling just is 100% shut down because of my opponent's Archen, and I have had games where the combination of Chinchou and Pawniard made things impossible for it as well. I have never used Fletchling + Diglett in tandem, but there are still Pokemon that Diglett cannot trap that really hurt Fletchling (Archen, Tirtouga, Pawniard with rocks breaking Diglett's sash, Slowpoke). Like, I've seen some crazy Fletchling sweeps but that is primarily from teams that were just super underprepared for it. I don't feel comfortable with saying it can sweep through teams when there are so many checks for it, and when it requires entire teams of support (such as Zigzagoon) to be crazy effective.

What do you think? Do you guys think the number of checks it has along with the ease in including its checks in teambuilding make up for how strong its priority moves are and how powerful of a revenge killer it is? I know that's basically what the discussion has been, but I wanted to contribute slightly as well.

Good work guys, keep it up!

I do agree that Fletchling won't be sweeping anytime soon if your opponent has an archen but I disagree that it makes it 100% useless in fact, I would argue that Fletchlings ability unlike other sweepers to be useful when it has a counter on the field is what sets it a part from the rest and I will explain why. Even with Archen stopping the sweep you aren't stopping the potential it has to revenge kill things (which is a lot) before sweeping whether it be coming in after something dies, being pivoted into or even switching into a predicted Knock Off from Mienfoo Fletchling can find ways to come on the field and threaten things with revenge kills. Let's look at this scenario, your opponent has an Archen stopping any potential sweep attempt with Fletchling, they get a Misdreavus to Nasty Plot while in on idk say Timburr it sustains damage due to setting up and after Timburr faints to a Dazzling Gleam in comes Fletchling. You either a) revenge kill Missy with Acrobatics b)force it out which is still good because your preventing a what could be a sweep so although fletch may not be able to sweep at all times it is still able to keep many set up sweepers at bay. It also stops dd scraggy, bulk up Timburr, chlorosweepers, unburden drifloon, tailow, dwebble, clamperl heaps of things keep in mind I am not saying it counters some of the above Pokemon, rather that it can revenge kill these pokemon after they have set up on something.

Also Fletchdig teams are one thing but everyone seems to be forgetting about volt turn and bird spam teams which are both common and help Fletchling to wear down certain checks fairly easily. Fletchling causes so much switches that it often U-turn without the cost of getting hit back, with U-turn damage on archen then something like chinchou threatening it and volt switching out you are able to wear down the opponents Fletchling checks while also keeping them on the back foot. People also like to switch in archen on Mienfoo pre berry juice activation and Mienfoo can also help wear it down with U-turn. U-turn and Stealth rock damage potentially can really rack up.

Tailow can run steelwing to be an archen lure and posses crazy powerful boom bursts, facades and brave birds that will simply tear apart teams unless they let it chip away on their Fletchling check. Dodou and Vullaby can hamper the performance of several switch ins by the use of Knock Off which are also switch ins to Fletchling and they both have brave bird to boot.

It seems like people are only focusing on fletch dig really when there are two other play styles that allow Fletchling to get past it's checks easily unless multiple are run on the one team and even then...


Also have to agree with fatty on that list some of those Pokemon are a) simply not viable and b)don't actually beat Fletchling reliably frillish and bronzor are definitely not viable with Knock Off buffed and bronzor having no recovery and many common weaknesses that can be exploited. Lickitung and Porygon can technically beat it, but at the expense of being to weak to be used again which kind of defeats the purpose of using them they are supposed to take hits, force stuff out and recover damage. I will do calls later but I'm pretty sure switching into a +2 fletch with Porygon it's going to die to two acrobatics. Lickitung needs dragon tail which it doesn't always run with wish protect being essential and heal bell, body slam, knock off also being used. Between Wish and Protect your practically getting a set up opportunity and a chance to Roost with Fletch


Edit: Obvious Power Cranidos often holds either life orb or choice scarf and takes around 40% to unboosted acrobatics iirc so it's prone to being worn down and not something you want to switch into Fletchling early game at least.

Edit 2: also some checks mentioned for fletch are redundant with other like why the fuck would I use tyrunt when there is tirtouga and archen? And just because something can live a few hits from fletch doesn't mean it's garbage otherwise (see Bronzor)

 

[chimp]

But what you need to realize is that a large portion of those team archetypes you listed are still quite popular in this metagame dominated by Fletchling. Pokémon like Mienfoo, sun teams, etc. are still seeing decent usage despite Fletchling's presence.I believe that this is a true testament to showing that Fletch isn't broken.

Sure U-turn provides momentum, but if SR are up, Fletchling is greatly hindered, as it can't pivot in and out as much as it would like. I'm not denying that Fletch is a great revenge killer, but it can easily be stopped by its many checks.

I'd disagree. According to this post, sun is at a staggering 9% usage while sunoffense is only at 3%. Torchic has a Usage % of 1.
Again, I'm not denying that it is easily stopped but I think its presence and effect on the metagame is much greater than some would expect.

Also, pre-congrats on 1k :)

 

[greengrappler]

Ok well based off of the nomination votes: Misdreavus AND Fletchling have been nominated as suspects. Praise the lord and fuck #freeyanma.

list of people who got suspect reqs and can be selected for council

Tricking
GlassGlaceon
Fran17
Corporal Levi
Fiend Hound
Hawkstar
Peef Rimgar
lockiegengar12
Hakumen
Yagura
Diana
srk1214
Plead
TCR
sparktrain
Slashari
Cydrolic
TheFenderStory
Champion Fizz
migzoo
Obvious Power
supercoven94
Vileman
Alphose_Elric
Sweep
macle
Toa Tahu
RZL2000
Sken
Paleo
Eren Yeagar
Legitimate Username
Cinco Diablo
Washibon
Unfixable
cityfolk
Superpowerdude
Melonz
Ecuacion
Genesis7
DeathxShinigami
zeriloa
fatty
KS2
Rowan
Talpr0ne
Celticpride034
blizzardy
Max Carvalho
QuoteCS
Fra71
Kappa_
mostthe3rd
North
fitzy72
Braixeno
Temporaryanonymous
Lord Cilan
apt-get
Metal Sonic
Ecna
The Avalanches
Sunny.
i Myst-O-Gan
Caledrith
Sae Sae
zamb66
Cutie Caitlyn
Flame Emblem
Nightmare Vampire
GuglioM
Cherub Agent
Alexandrine
Aaron's Aron
asterat
RotomPoison
Turtleye
Dubby_Tee
Tidal Waltz
Goddess Briyella
OnlyLove
Mr.378
Mysteria
Livio
V0x
WildBoi113
CrystalNinetales
The Unlucky one
SacredSins
Aerow
kingmidas
MarioAqua
zorbees
ZoroarkForever
HeDancesWithSwords
Felicette
TeZy
Marisson
trev
LightningLuxray
betafader
Apollo77
fliprushman
drag0nic76
gangsterish
galbia
A-Class Porygon
made2joke
Alowe282
kyla-kylls
radianthero156
prem
boo836
Sparkychild
dsr95
jg1198
PokeGyarados
Moral Nihilism
Splashyship
Artemisa
Pikasohn
queenlucy

Thank you very much everybody who helped me figure out who made nominations, voted, compiled the votes, and ensured that everything went legitimately. I really appreciate it. Your efforts won't give you a better chance of making council, but it really was helpful, and you can bet I'll remember it.

If your name is not on this list and it should be, please tell me immediately. Everyone on this list (besides council members) will receive .5 of a vote for the Tiering Contributor badge. If you are chosen for the rotating council / are on the permanent council, you will receive a full vote. However, you can still discuss in this thread if you are not among that list.

Members of the permanent council:

Goddess Briyella prem macle apt-get Corkscrew

Heysup did not qualify for reqs and Chieliee stepped down. I will select TWO members among those who qualified for the permanent council, and FOUR OR FIVE members among those who qualified for the rotating council (these members will receive a full vote for the Tiering Contributor badge). If you believe you should be given consideration for either council based off of things besides discussion in the thread, please PM me before I choose council members.

It takes 7 votes to ban something with 11 voters and 8 with 12.

Discuss these questions regarding the suspects:

1) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling broken?
2) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

If 1 is satisfied, then 2 and 3 don't matter. If 1 is not satisfied, then the latter qualities in tandem might be worth banning it.

DISCUSS AWAY. Post in this thread with as many (good) replays as you want, explanations of Misdreavus / Fletchling as to whether it is broken or not, or your defense for it. Use Misdreavus / Fletchling's stats and qualities as a basis for your arguments--I do not want to see posts that end at "Misdreavus and Fletchling are really strong" Well made posts outlining your reasoning, well made responses to other people's posts, and just overall discussion in this thread is going to be very much taken into consideration when I decide the council members.

Discussion will be open until like Friday August 8th at night time EST, or until I feel it's winding down and I can choose council members. Don't wait until the end to message me about any special qualifications you may have, else if I have already chosen council members before receiving your message, it probably won't be considered. Unfortunately, I will not be giving special consideration for rap prowess like I stated as these are very important suspects.

Get posting.

Just thought I would give my 2C here, I haven't really faced many of Missy lately (I've been hanging out in RU for the past few months.) But I think I can honestly say that Fletch is kinda broken.

*Why do I think he could be broken?
165 BP priority is why. This will utterly destroy anything that does not resist it. This means only Steel/Rock/Electric types can switch into it. However, most steel types will take a ton from overheat and be KOed by Acrobatics. Factor in PRIORITY RECOVERY and a fast U-turn to bring in someone to beat the Fletch counter, and you have someone who can take out a large portion of the tier.

*Why do I not like it?
Fletch is making it very difficult for people to safely put people weak to flying on their teams, as they would be forced out by Fletch as he comes in, if Fletch were to go, people like Larvesta and Doduo could shine.

*How could it not be broken?
Fletch threatens so much of the tier that he becomes important on most teams for taking care of major threats (DDance Scraggy, Timburr, Annoying Cottonee, Foongus.) making him invaluable on most teams.

*Countering the above point.
You don't need priority Acro to beat the above threats, just use Doduo or something.

*Final verdict:
Fletch can clean up WAY to easily against weakened teams through Gale wings.

PS: I have no idea why I am so obsessed with Doduo. :)

 

[Celestavian]

1) Is Misdreavus broken?

Misdreavus reminds me a lot of how 5th gen sand was. There is one far-and-away best counter in Pawniard, and a bunch of stuff that can check it, but allows Misdreavus to have a turn or two to do its thing. As good of a check Knock Off is, we need to realize that outside of Scarf Pawniard (and to a lesser extent, Scraggy and Mienfoo), all the Knock Off buff did was remove Misdreavus's ability to switch into Fighting-types. For example, I ran Will-o-Wisp this suspect cycle to cripple Mienfoo, making Knock Off a 3HKO and crippling it for the rest of the game barring Aromatherapy. Same with Croagunk, except that Knock Off is now a 4HKO along with Sludge Bomb even with the Eviolite removed. Timburr does not OHKO Eviolite Misdreavus, even with a crit or Bulk Up boost, and is 2HKOed by +0 Dazzling Gleam even with max Special Defense and Careful nature. Scraggy, of course, is also massacred by Dazzling Gleam. Misdreavus can still 1v1 every Fighting-type in the tier when it's running Dazzling Gleam and Will-o-Wisp. Running HP Fighting over Dazzling Gleam? You will likely lose Misdreavus, but still make the opposing Fighting-type useless. Timburr is incapable of sweeping after tangoing with Misdreavus, being left at around 30% from 2 Shadow Balls, and KOed if for some reason if it tried to Bulk Up expecting the OHKO with Knock Off. Naturally, Misdreavus liked 5th gen Knock Off much better, but that doesn't mean it can't check Fighting-types. Is being able to switch into them important? Yes, it sure is, and I'm not trying to say that it's not, but do realize you can use this to your advantage. As long as Misdreavus is on the field, you can bet Mienfoo or whatever isn't going to risk using their high-powered STAB Fighting moves without good cause, meaning you can be free to make some bolder predictions. I'm delving into "you can outpredict their check so Missy is broken" territory here, so I'll stop by just saying that in my experience, my opponents have used Knock Off at least 90% of the time when I was running Misdreavus. I know that other checks to Misdreavus exist, but others before me have already gone into detail on those. I just wanted to point out that Knock Off is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. If it truly was, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Otherwise, I feel that Misdreavus has only gotten better through the generational transition. Dazzling Gleam is a fantastic addition to its movepool, finally giving it ammunition against Scraggy and other Dark-types, considering that a lot of them were neutral to HP Fighting. It has also lost one of its biggest checks in the form of Murkrow. Pawniard was already a good check to Misdreavus, so its not like that's a new check to replace Murkrow, and it still can't switch in. Berry Juice gave Misdreavus's Nasty Plot a lot more power behind it, letting it utilize Substitute without fear of whittling its own health away. The lack of Sand and Hail means that Misdreavus isn't losing a portion of its health every turn. Perhaps the only negative change was Fletchling, and even then it can OHKO with Thunderbolt while only taking 45-50% from Acrobatics.

Do I believe Misdreavus to be broken? Yes. It's gotten better than it was last gen, despite the buffs to Knock Off, and now that Murkrow left the tier, I think it's high time that Misdreavus does too.

Fletchling I am very much on the fence about, and will post my thoughts on later. In the meanwhile, I'd like to highlgiht one other post in this thread here:

For now I'm here to make one point. All currently banned Pokemon in LC (except Yanma) have at least one of these two traits:

1. The ability to be an offensive threat and still be a viable check/counter to many relevant threats of the meta at the time. This quality was shown in Tangela, Gligar, Murkrow had these qualities. These 3 pokemon had different sets, one abusing their offensive prowess and the other focusing on key resistances and longevity. Keep in mind it had access to both, this is usually where the argument of "There is no reason NOT to put it on a team" which is seen in these 3 pokemon. The most extreme cases of this would be LC Sneasel and GSC Snorlax.
2. Some kind of feature that would allow it to outlast its typical counters, usually in the form of recovery. Regenerator Tangela, Roost Gligar, SubThief Murkrow, All bulky boosting Swirlix sets can kinda go under this, and Meditite's resistance to SR and Drain Punch recovery (Which if you recall was my main argument for its ban). This usually made it that strategies involving those pokemon were the best in the metagame, and that's why those pokemon warranted a ban.

I believe that this is a moot point, and is something we should be avoiding when it comes time to make our decision. Why would we compare our current suspects with what are basically far-and-away broken Pokemon? Tangela and friends were banned because they were ridiculously OP, not because of any set guidelines. Even then, not all the banned Pokemon share those two aspects, either. Sneasel had no recovery at all if memory serves, and Yanma had to choose between longevity in the form of Roost or Berry Juice, and damage in the form of Life Orb. We should decide based on whether or not the suspects are broken in comparison to the metagame around them, not to what the other banned Pokemon are like.

 

[boo836]

I don't know whether people are just trying to acknowledge it, or they're ignorant, but the rock switch is like Pawn vs Missy. Hp Grass can still kick HELIX's ass. Chou and Archen are the ones that really don't care. If you're going to note that Missy can get around most checks, at least acknowledge That Fletch can too (though I personally feel like that isn't a good argument anyways)

 

[Max Carvalho]

I will give my thoughts as well.

In the Aegislash suspect discussion thread (victory road) alexwolf stated what does make a mon broken so I am going to use that 3 points to proof that Misdreavus is ban worthy and Fletchling is not. Regarding Misdreavus first:

Just look at it...​

Misdreavus Is Overporwered

That's quite easy to note due to Misdreavus main sets. The Eviolite set is the by far the most used and the most effective. Shadow Ball + Dazzling Gleam is almost perfect coverage, it just doesn't hit Litleo, which barely can threaten Misdreavus anyway. Will-O-Wisp makes it pretty impossible to any physical attacker bar Fire-types switch in Misdreavus safely (this includes ScarfPawn.). Finnaly, Nasty Plot is what makes Misdreavus so overporwered. Misdreavus is the best Nasty Plot user in the metagame; with its counters weakened enough, it can be unstoppable after a +2 hitting incredibly hard with Shadow Ball, and hitting everything else with Dazz. Another coverage options for this set include T-bolt and Hidden Power Fighting. Destiny Bond is a very cool option. The counters to this set are Porygon, Bulky Houndour (while not having HP Fighting) and.... pretty much this, the other walls are just set up fodder (Lickitung and Munchlax are defeated by WoW the Missy can boost). Vullaby does win if Missy is carring Hidden Power Fighting, but it is only a soft-counter just like everything else and it is defeated by Will-O-Wisp. Look that its very hard to Pory actually switch in Nasty Plot as Hidden Power Figthing 2HKOes after the boost and Pory Shadow Ball only 3HKOs. So again, all Misdreavus counters to this set are only soft ones. Another very cool, but far less used set is the Sub+Nasty Plot set, which doesn't have any counters. Nothing can switch in Substitute or Nasty Plot. Porygon main way to win Misdreavus is T-Waving it and Substitute basically disallows it. The Choice set is also an incredible one; it completely wrecks the common ScarfPawn switchs to Misdreavus if you are using a Choice Specs set. Also, tricking into the right thing at the right time may also give you a free Nasty Plot and an easy time sweeping (or allowing another teammate to sweep!). By the way, the first set can also use Taunt, an icredible move when used correctly as Misdreavus outspeeds most set up sweepers in the meta. Misdreavus can also fill a supportive role; this thing has access even to Heal Bell! Still the main reason you are using Misdreavus is to sweep with Nasty Plot, and that's why Misdreavus is so overporwered.

Misdreavus Is Uncompetitive

This is clearly seen due to Misdreavus being fit in any team and given the right conditions, Misdreavus is a win button, just see above ^

Misdreavus Causes An Unhealthy Metagame

While I don't know about any player that feel like Misdreavus makes LC less fun, an undeniable point when discussing Misdreavus is that it is easily the most overcentralizating mon in LC right now. What we should discuss is if that centralization is healthy or not. Let's give a look at, for instance, Pawniard. While Pawniard does have its merits, the main reason the Choice Scarf set is being used is to beat Misdreavus and be sometimes a soft-counter to Misdreavus. All the other sets can easily lose to Misdreavus due to HP Fighting / Will-O-Wisp and Missy being able to survive a Sucker Punch. Also, Misdreavus counters (again, they have their merits) are also soft-counters sometimes and some of them are only much used because of Misdreavus. Bulky Houndour for instance. What is the main (and possibly only) reason I am ever going to use a bulky spread for Houndour? To beat Misdreavus. What is the main reason I am going to use Porygon? While it does have merits being an incredible wall, again, the main task is, again, to beat Misdreavus. Another walls such as Spritzee are very often set up fodder to Misdreavus. Misdreavus restricts teambuilding a lot; good teams don't need to have Porygon to be good of course, but they still will have a lot of difficulties to deal with Misdreavus. Also, while in LC we will always deal with speed ties, most games are pretty much decided by Misdreavus vs Misdreavus. We see this every time and it does keep shifting a match just like Aerow stated. Overall, Misdreavus is a very unhealthy presence in the metagame.

So, should Misdreavus be banned? YES.

Now to the tiny burd.

Wtf these guys think they are doing...​

Fletchling Isn't Overpowered

Fletchling is a defining force at Little Cup nowadays. If you think you can make a team without think about this tiny bird, you will get rk. But, personally, I never had problems dealing with Fletchling. It does have the strongest priority in LC but Fletchling is very easy to play around. Unlike Missy, it does have hard counters in Archen, Chinchou, Magnemite, Tirtouga, and even lord Omanyte. While Fletchling do can run special moves to beat its counters, what will Fletchling lose? Roost, so Fletchling can get easier worn down? U-turn so Fletchling won't get offensive momentum (btw instead of using a subpar move to beat some few counters whynaut just running U-turn to keep the offensive momentum and sending a real thing to deal with Fletchling's counters?)? Swords Dance so Fletchling won't even be able to sweep which is the main reason you should be using the burd? If you asked me, using a coverage move to beat one of this counters in exchange to lose a lot of Fletchling's incredible tools is a fair trade, not a broken trade. Misdreavus doesn't lose anything running any of its greats coverage moves unlike Fletchling. Fletchling doesn't have 4MSS, U-turn still allows Fletchling to beat its counters alongside a teammate. Also, while 50 attack is not that low, it's not that high. Fletchling can't even OHKO 36 HP / 36 Def Scraggy. Overall, Fletchling is a really potent threat that most teams should be prepared for, but it is not overpowered due to it having its hard counters and not being stupidly stronger like other suspect subjects were or like Misdreavus is.

Fletchling Isn't Uncompetitive

Fletchling just doesn't provide a win button like Misdreavus does. Again, it is a potent threat in LC but it isn't uncompetitive because, imo, it doesn't make the way to the victory that easy like Misdreavus does.

Fletchling Doesn't Cause an Unhealthy Metagame

It does cause centralization but is a healthy one. See Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, Cottonee, Based Foongus. Are they unviable because of Fletchling? Of course not. Even if Fletchling leaves they will be as viable as they are in this meta. All of Fletchling counters and checks are incredible useful for any team, some of them were even used before Fletchling rise as Slashari stated. It restricts teambuilding a little bit but every single high-tier threat does. Fletchling doesn't force you to run anything niche just to beat it.

So, should Fletchling be banned? NO.
By the way, ty for reading the wall of text :)

 

[Ecna]

Misdreavus and Fletchling - Are they broken?

Misdreavus is, in a word, unpredictable. If you are running a check to one set, and it happens to be running another, then you're in a pretty sticky situation. Misdreavus has so many sets and options it can run, and a majority are viable enough to be used. It can use a variety of moves such as Trick, Will-o-wisp, Substitute, Nasty Plot, Hidden Power Fighting, or even Destiny Bond to get past its "checks". Pawniard gets nailed by Hidden Power Fighting, Chespin hates Will-o-Wisp, and Porygon dislikes being on the receiving end of Trick + Choice Specs. It can take advantage of a bunch of items too, Eviolite makes its defense skyrocket, Berry Juice heals it when it gets below half HP, Choice Scarf makes it faster than hell, and Choice Specs makes it hit like a monster and can also be Tricked away. For these reasons, I believe that Misdreavus is broken.

Fletchling, however, is another story. While it poses a big threat with its priority 110 BP stab move in Acrobatics, it has zero viable options to get past most of its checks without pairing it with Diglett. Notable checks are Archen, Chinchou, and Tirtouga. All three of these Pokemon can eat up an Acrobatics from Fletchling and threaten it out with a STAB move of their choice. While some may argue that Fletchling can run Hidden Power Grass to get past Chinchou and Tirtouga, it is generally a very weak move and will most likely result in Fletchling getting KO'd. Even if Fletchling has Diglett as a partner, it takes a great amount of prediction to successfully use the FletchDig core. Additionally, Archen isn't trapped by Diglett and can switch out (unless Scarf Gothita is used, but Thunderbolt doesn't always KO and Scarf Gothita is generally a waste of a pokemon slot). For these reasons, I believe that Fletchling is not broken.

Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

In my opinion, yes, it is making LC not fun. It basically forces you to run one or two checks on a team, or else you'll get swept. A team that is weak to Fletchling will most likely lose 80% of games that it plays. In matches where Fletchling is present, matches basically revolve around sweeping or getting swept with Fletchling. If a Fletchling check is removed, that basically signals the end of the game, as Fletchling has an insanely easy time sweeping once a check is removed. Additionally, Fletchling holds a lot of Pokemon back, such as most Grass types. For these reasons, I think that Fletchling is making LC not fun.

Is Fletchling deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Most likely. If a player decides to play LC for the first time, his team will generally have nothing to send out against Fletchling. If said player plays a few ladder matches where he usually gets swept by Fletchling, there is no doubt that he will add it to his team. However, since he has never had experience with Fletchling, he will most likely be running a lackluster set. After he finds that his Fletchling does not meet expectations, he will rage, and probably quit Little Cup. I am willing to bet that the previous scenario has happened multiple times, so yes, I believe Fletchling is deterring individuals from playing Little Cup.

 

[OP]

Edit: Obvious Power Cranidos often holds either life orb or choice scarf and takes around 40% to unboosted acrobatics iirc so it's prone to being worn down and not something you want to switch into Fletchling early game at least.

Edit 2: also some checks mentioned for fletch are redundant with other like why the fuck would I use tyrunt when there is tirtouga and archen? And just because something can live a few hits from fletch doesn't mean it's garbage otherwise (see Bronzor)

Cranidos is prone to being worn down, but the point was that it's a check and immediately threatens the opposing team far more than Fletchling does. Secondly, just because Tyrunt checks similar things, doesn't mean it's outclassed and there's no reason to use it. It fulfills a different niche and can find it's spot on teams and honestly just looking at the analysis would tell you why you might use it over Tirtouga or Archen. That's basically the only "redundant" check in the post, as the others are fairly common and fulfill unique niches.

Just thought I would give my 2C here, I haven't really faced many of Missy lately (I've been hanging out in RU for the past few months.) But I think I can honestly say that Fletch is kinda broken.

*Why do I think he could be broken?
165 BP priority is why. This will utterly destroy anything that does not resist it. This means only Steel/Rock/Electric types can switch into it. However, most steel types will take a ton from overheat and be KOed by Acrobatics. Factor in PRIORITY RECOVERY and a fast U-turn to bring in someone to beat the Fletch counter, and you have someone who can take out a large portion of the tier.

First of all Fletchling isn't "utterly destroying" thing that don't resist it. It often fails to 2HKO many common pokemon in the tier. Fletchling also doesn't have a fast u-turn as the most common set is only 12 speed and sets with more speed have their own problems that will typically outweigh the benefits.

*Why do I not like it?
Fletch is making it very difficult for people to safely put people weak to flying on their teams, as they would be forced out by Fletch as he comes in, if Fletch were to go, people like Larvesta and Doduo could shine.

There are so many common pokemon in the tier that are able to be successful regardless of Fletchling's presence and being weak to Acrobatics; Timburr, Mienfoo, Cottonee, Foongus, etc. Doduo also fulfills a different niche than Fletchling and I don't feel a ban on Fletchling would even make it more common.

*Final verdict:
Fletch can clean up WAY to easily against weakened teams through Gale wings. I vote to either:
1: Ban Fletch (A bit overkill)
2: Ban Gale Wings (True, Fletch would plummet in usage but at least Doduo can see the light of day)

This suspect is for whether or not to ban Fletchling and Misdreavus. Only banning Gale Wings isn't an option.

 

[Artemisa]

frillish - um yeah you're going to have to be constantly recovering just to keep up if this is your fletch check, it doesnt resist and has sub par defense.
lileep - again, it doesnt resist, so its going the have to recover constantly or else risk being 3hkod, not to mention +2 fletch 2hkoes where as ancientpower can't ohko
porygon - yep same thing, although pory does have better bulk to take acro. nevertheless, +2 fletch 2hkos where pory can't ohko.
tirtouga - ok finally, something that does actually beat fletch :) o wait hp grass LoL
magnemite - another good fletch check, but overheat sucks. ill give it to you tho.
chinchou - probably the best fletch check, even tho return hurts.
snubbull - acro still hurts like a motherfucker, snubbull is easy af to wear down, and if u dont want to wear it down u can just sd and +1 acro 2hkos where play rough cant ohko
slowpoke - so you switch in and hope for scald burn? acro +uturn sucks, sd 2hkos. i don't see how this beats fletch.
ferroseed - lol wtf, this doesnt beat fletch in the slightest.
ponyta - um acro 2hkos most of the time, and sd just goes right through if sr is on the field. you have to hope for flame body lol
pawniard - pawn is a weak check at best, it can't ohko with any move and acro will wear it down fast to the point where u can't check it anymore.
lickitung - what does this do? dtail and wait to get swept later?
archen - another good check, but defeatist + sr weak make it rather risky even.
shieldon - shieldon was good back when glig and swirlix were around, but if you're having to use shieldon now to beat fletch then im sorry, you're wasting a slot.
amaura - again, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel and is sr weak.
spritzee - +2 fletch 2hkos, spritz is going to be switching in on fighters and will most likely be knocked off anyways lol and all u can do is moonblast which can only 2hkos.
koffing - no fly resist and no recovery makes this a p weak check, has to land a wow, but idk what fletch is staying in to eat that.
bronzor - this can't do anything back and again easy af to wear down.

Most defensive mons work better in cores instead of one v one play, you also haven't considered some situations with those pokes I listed and had experience with some of them. Since SR was included as a con for the defensive mons, Fletchling should also suffer. Most of the moves you said don't 1hko actually have a greater chance once SR is in play.

Frillish can tank an Acrobatics not boosted and recover the hp it lost, if it SD's it can tank enough to wisp it and switch out and go to it's other member of the "core".

Lileep can 1hko Fletchling most of the time if SR is on the field, Fletchling also has to be at 100% or else it will get 1hko'd with rocks on field.

Porygon can download and gain +1 via download and opt to run ice beam to 1hko fletch.

Tirtouga - 0- SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 6-9 (26 - 39.1%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
LoL

Magnemite outspeeds Fletch and runs BJ you have to hit it on the siwtch w/ overheat or else it won't work. Prediction isn't reliable either no matter how easy the scenario is.

The best Snubbul that walls for me is 196 hp / 196 def impish variant, you should calc Acrobatics with it

Slowpoke you can opt for ice beam over psychic

Ferroseed can leech seed stall + iron barbs it, the residual damage racks up and it can also attack with iron head/gyro ball/bullet seed since it will roost.

Ponyta - 156 def spread is what I run, idk if it's universal but it lives 3 acrobatics unless you get a really really bad roll and you can wisp it or ko it with wild charge. +2 tanks a hit

Evio pawn can pursuit / iron head / knock off / sucker punch / even SD on you. Fletchling isn't bulky at all and all of pawns moves 2hko uninvested

Licki can use ice beam/thunderbolt

If you are using evio Archen w/ roost even at +2 it wont 2hko, or 3 iirc

Shieldon has other uses than fletch lol good sr user / lure / walls normals / can phaze / walls flying / has a good offensive pool / walls fairies / and can tank neutral hits really well. It's not a waste of slot imo.

Amaura - yeh its sr weak but still gets the job done, its ice stab is really good too only resisted by fire/steel/water and its movepool can help it iver come.

Spritzee - ill give you that one, but sr on fletch's side is problematic

Koffing - its still a great wall and poison is a really good type. it learns tbolt iirc and can wisp and clear smog

Bronzor can BJ + Recycle and toxic stall Fletchling, it won't be worn down easy.

These pokes I personally dont find shit, and like I said before these work together as cores. Not just to beat Fletch, but many other walls, I think I stated it in my last post. This is my battling experince from a defensive point of view, I think any other defensive player knows how good cores are and they know each have more than one purpose.

Phone sucks

 

[Camden]

I don't know whether people are just trying to acknowledge it, or they're ignorant, but the rock switch is like Pawn vs Missy. Hp Grass can still kick HELIX's ass. Chou and Archen are the ones that really don't care. If you're going to note that Missy can get around most checks, at least acknowledge That Fletch can too (though I personally feel like that isn't a good argument anyways)

The huge problem with this is predictability. You're automatically assuming that your opponent is going to switch to the appropriate check that gets hurt by HP Grass. This is a problem when you start running multiple moves to get around your checks. It becomes less of the Pokemon doing its intended job, and moreso trying to play around its checks the whole time. So what happens when you HP Grass/Steel Wing a Timburr expecting the switch into the Archen/Tirt/Omanyte? Well, you look pretty silly.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Most defensive mons work better in cores instead of one v one play, you also haven't considered some situations with those pokes I listed and had experience with some of them. Since SR was included as a con for the defensive mons, Fletchling should also suffer. Most of the moves you said don't 1hko actually have a greater chance once SR is in play.

Frillish can tank an Acrobatics not boosted and recover the hp it lost, if it SD's it can tank enough to wisp it and switch out and go to it's other member of the "core".

Lileep can 1hko Fletchling most of the time if SR is on the field, Fletchling also has to be at 100% or else it will get 1hko'd with rocks on field.

Porygon can download and gain +1 via download and opt to run ice beam to 1hko fletch.

Tirtouga - 0- SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 6-9 (26 - 39.1%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
LoL

Magnemite outspeeds Fletch and runs BJ you have to hit it on the siwtch w/ overheat or else it won't work. Prediction isn't reliable either no matter how easy the scenario is.

The best Snubbul that walls for me is 196 hp / 196 def impish variant, you should calc Acrobatics with it

Slowpoke you can opt for ice beam over psychic

Ferroseed can leech seed stall + iron barbs it, the residual damage racks up and it can also attack with iron head/gyro ball/bullet seed since it will roost.

Ponyta - 156 def spread is what I run, idk if it's universal but it lives 3 acrobatics unless you get a really really bad roll and you can wisp it or ko it with wild charge. +2 tanks a hit

Evio pawn can pursuit / iron head / knock off / sucker punch / even SD on you. Fletchling isn't bulky at all and all of pawns moves 2hko uninvested

Licki can use ice beam/thunderbolt

If you are using evio Archen w/ roost even at +2 it wont 2hko, or 3 iirc

Shieldon has ither uses than fletch lol good sr user / lure / walls normals / can phaze / walls flying / has a good offensive pool / walls fairies / and can tank neutral hits really well. It's not a waste of slow imo.

Amaura - yeh its sr weak but still gets the job done, its ice stab is really good too only resisted by fire/steel/water and its movepool can help it iver come.

Spritzee - ill give you that one, but sr on fletch's side is problematic

Koffing - its still a great wall and poison is a really good type. it learns tbolt iirc and can wisp and clear smog

Bronzor can BJ + Recycle and toxic stall Fletchling, it won't be worn down easy.

These pokes I personally dont find shit, and like I said before these work together as cores. Not just to beat Fletch, but many other walls, I think I stated it in my last post. This is my battling experince from a defensive point of view, I think any other defensive player knows how good cores are and they know each have more than one purpose.

Ok lol, if you are planning to run mixed Fletchling you should give 40 spa evs and a neutral nature. Calc again its a 2HKO.

 

[chimp]

Fletchling Isn't Uncompetitive

Fletchling just doesn't provide a win button like Misdreavus does. Again, it is a potent threat in LC but it isn't uncompetitive because, imo, it doesn't make the way to the victory that easy like Misdreavus does.

I don't want to sound cynical but I think Fletchling is even more of a "win button" than Misdreavus is. Atleast sweeping with Misdreavus requires some skill, knowing when to Sub, choosing between Dazzling Gleam and HP Fighting, removing pokemon who reach a speed tie, etc.

But with Fletchling, its just SPAM ACROBATICS. Little to nothing can outspeed its Gale Wings and also KO and very few pokemon, other than the few aforementioned dedicated counters, can live it down easily.

 

[skies]

Misdreavus:

Okay, this is a extremelly powerfull, and it's a delicated subject. Like a lot of people has said, its inmunnities, typing, moveset and stats are very very good. It is a versatile pokémon with a lot of viable sets that centralizes a lot the metagame (a lot of things are used with knock off (Dwebble) or shadow ball (Abra) to finish it). I think it should be broken if it wasn't extremely weak to knock off and pursuit. Knock off is one of the most used moves in the tier, and if this poke is weak to it is not really broken. I think that we all agree that if Knock off was banned, Missy would have to be banned too. And the weakness to pursuit makes it so trappeable by things like Pawn or Houndour. I'm not sure if it would be banned or not, but if i had to vote i'd vote no ban, because the game is really funny as it is, Ghost spam wouldn't be so strong as it was and more things. Anyway I'm not very sure. I'll read more opinions to decide what to vote. But, for the moment, i'd vote NO BAN.

I don't think that this is a good argument for a variety of reasons. Misdreavus is weak to Knock Off, but what's not crippled by it except like Shellos and Fletchling? Will-O-Wisp / Dazzling Gleam handles Knock Off a lot better than given credit for so this should be taken into consideration. About Dark-types Pursuit-trapping it, it has Dazzling Gleam as well and they have to be wary of Substitute. And, again, Will-O-Wisp somewhat compounds this. It has a weakness, yeah, but it has so so so soooo many other positive attributes that I don't really think this would be a good pro-No Ban.

 

[Camden]

I don't think that this is a good argument for a variety of reasons. Misdreavus is weak to Knock Off, but what's not crippled by it except like Shellos and Fletchling? Will-O-Wisp / Dazzling Gleam handles Knock Off a lot better than given credit for so this should be taken into consideration. About Dark-types Pursuit-trapping it, it has Dazzling Gleam as well and they have to be wary of Substitute. And, again, Will-O-Wisp somewhat compounds this. It has a weakness, yeah, but it has so so so soooo many other positive attributes that I don't really think this would be a good pro-No Ban.

Another really interesting thing to note is that Missy outspeeds every non-boosted Knock Off user in the meta except for Abra, Meowth, Aipom, and Glameow. Out of those, only Abra wouldn't be affected by a burn.

 

[Max Carvalho]

I don't want to sound cynical but I think Fletchling is even more of a "win button" than Misdreavus is. Atleast sweeping with Misdreavus requires some skill, knowing when to Sub, choosing between Dazzling Gleam and HP Fighting, removing pokemon who reach a speed tie, etc.

But with Fletchling, its just SPAM ACROBATICS. Little to nothing can outspeed its Gale Wings and also KO and very few pokemon, other than the few aforementioned dedicated counters, can live it down easily.

Neither of them can 6-0 thats for sure and spamming Acrobatics isn't the best idea if you are running U-turn, lol, you should U-turn when the opponent is actually switching, spamming Acrobatics is not the way to victory. The thing is, Misdreavus can and will bypass its counters if she wants to, while Fletchling can bypass some of its counters at a very high cost. The very few aggurment is quite bad knowing as how many Pokemon are viable in LC, but there are some mons that aren't counters and can deal with Fletch such as: Pawniard, Porygon (the wall version does counter with Ice Beam), Dweeble, Ponyta, Spritzee (moonblast is a 2HKO), Vullaby, Hippopotas, Munchlax, Onix (can potentially be a counter), Slowpoke, Elekid, Koffing, Whynaut. All of these can live an Acrobatics and potentially wall or KO Fletchling.