._. the reason quagsire is good is because every other top threat is a boosting sweeper. BD Azumarill, Bisharp, bulky SD Mega Scizor, DD Mega T-Tar, etc. DD X-zard just happens to be one of them. Unaware means it doesn't matter how many boosts they have, they're never getting through, and while Quagsire isn't particularly bulky for a wall, it rarely has to SE hits cause lolgrass.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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._. the reason quagsire is good is because every other top threat is a boosting sweeper. BD Azumarill, Bisharp, bulky SD Mega Scizor, DD Mega T-Tar, etc. DD X-zard just happens to be one of them. Unaware means it doesn't matter how many boosts they have, they're never getting through, and while Quagsire isn't particularly bulky for a wall, it rarely has to SE hits cause lolgrass.
I disagree with Quagsire dropping to B. Being a solid check to nearly every physical attacker in OU, including Mega Mawile, Azumarill, Terrakion, and Mega Pinsir, as well as a counter to (Mega) Scizor, non Life Orb Excadrill, Mega Tyranitar, Garchomp, and Bisharp, are feats deserving of B+ Rank.
Be careful, as thanks to Mold Breaker, MegaDos laughs at Quagsire.
But all in all I agree. The ability to just not care about physical stat boosters, like Scizor, Tyranitar, and Bisharp, and its great synergy with Clefable, the other Unaware mon, make it a B+ threat in my book.
I keep forgetting about Mold Breaker. lol Please tell me I'm not the only one that does that.
Zard x is like 80% of the time the wisp variant these days. Quag can't switch into it, it is completely crippled by a burn.
Just wanting to quickly dispute a point here. Assuming that we are referring to the high ladder, Charizard-X is probably not 80% wisp, as Will-O-Wisp occurs on Zard 18.313% of the time according to the 1825 14/06 OU stats. Interestingly enough, it clocks in at 12.466% usage on the 1695 stats, 5.654% of the time on 1500, and I can't seem to find the moveset for no weighting.
Just wanting to quickly dispute a point here. Assuming that we are referring to the high ladder, Charizard-X is probably not 80% wisp, as Will-O-Wisp occurs on Zard 18.313% of the time according to the 1825 14/06 OU stats. Interestingly enough, it clocks in at 12.466% usage on the 1695 stats, 5.654% of the time on 1500, and I can't seem to find the moveset for no weighting.
I didnt mean to suggest that Mega Tyranitar should drop to A because it only has one set and isnt versatile. My main argument was that on paper it looks like Mega Tyraniter can fill many roles (such as sand setter, pursuit trapper, dragon dancer, stealth rock) but other things do these better. And something that is partially eclipsed in every niche it could possibly have just doesnt deserve an A+ ranking in my eyes. When you said Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar dont do the same things you were 100% right, because they outclass each other so much that the other doesnt even bother trying. For example, Mega Tyranitar will never be a dedicated sand setter because normal Tyranitar is so much better at that. Hence Tyranitar outclasses Mega Tyranitar at a role that looks good on paper (for Mega Tyranitar). Also your post confused me. You said that Mega Tyranitar only has one set and that is a stealth rock setter, but you kept comparing it to Charizard X who doesnt even learn Stealth Rock. You are right in that I dont often get to the upper part of the ladder, which could be why I've never seen Mega Tyranitar as a stealth rock setter. However, QC only has one set listed for Mega Tyraniter and that is as a dragon dancer. Even if Mega Tyranitar has both the dragon dance and stealth rock set i still dont think its effective enough at either to deserve A+. Also, taking that much from common prioirty still sucks. Sure it's impressive that Mega Tyranitar can survive a 4x super effective mach punch, but that means little. Like i said in my original post, the reason why I consider Mega Tyranitar as the worst in terms of bulk out of the 3 megas is due to its defensive typing, not its sheer stats. Also the standard bulky zard isnt even 2hkoed by Talonflame unless it runs a choice band or life orb. Finally, when I say that Mega Tyranitar is "outclassed" as a dragon dancer by Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, I dont mean Slyveon > Florges kind of outclassed. I mean that all three are bulky dragon dancers that take up a mega slot but in general, the other two are better than Mega Tyranitar at it. Not by much, but still better. Which is why I suggested Mega Tyranitar for A.
Anyways I agree with Magnezone going up to B-, maybe even B but no higher
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Mega Tyranitar should not drop, just because it's not something very common like Mega Mawile and Aegislash doesn't mean it isn't one of the deadliest sweepers. This thing can set up on freaking Life Orb Greninja. It's hard to revenge kill too because of it's amazing bulk and resisting Brave Bird, Extremespeed and Sucker Punch which are more common than Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet which he can take anyway. Also it's hard to predict if Tyranitar is going to be the Mega.
First post outside of LC.Wish me luck.
Charizard-Mega Y A rank --> A+ rank WHY: Well, we all know everyone's favorite mega charizard evolution(looks at S rank), but that's no way to put charizard Y down.Charizard Y has one of the greatest abilitys in the game,Drought,which opens up to incredible team options.You can make a sun team with some clorophyll abusers like venusaur to help sweep with mega charizard y.Hey, clorodrought is a threat in LC, it can be just as good in OU,too. If you don't want to make a clorophyll team, you make charizard y's 154 spatk to use. With that beastly special attack stat, you could abuse it with a powerful STAB fire balst to kill almost every poke that is weak to it or takes normal damage from it. It also has useful recovery since it can learn roost. Yes, I know, it has many counters like chansey, thundurus,and other walls/hard hitters in OU, but it should at least get an A+ rank. If you're thinking heatran is a counter for charizard y - think again! Charizard has access to focus blast that'll easily do a lot of damage to heatran. Or you can run a mixed set consisting of Flare Blitz(to surprise special walls) and earthquake to OHKO heatran. A mixed char y set is very viable. Overall,Mega Charizard Y is a big threat in this metagame and it should definitely deserve more love like his brother over there because THIS MEGA IS A POWERHOUSE.
Charizard-Mega Y A rank --> A+ rank WHY: Well, we all know everyone's favorite mega charizard evolution(looks at S rank), but that's no way to put charizard Y down.Charizard Y has one of the greatest abilitys in the game,Drought,which opens up to incredible team options.You can make a sun team with some clorophyll abusers like venusaur to help sweep with mega charizard y.Hey, clorodrought is a threat in LC, it can be just as good in OU,too. If you don't want to make a clorophyll team, you make charizard y's 154 spatk to use. With that beastly special attack stat, you could abuse it with a powerful STAB fire balst to kill almost every poke that is weak to it or takes normal damage from it. It also has useful recovery since it can learn roost. Yes, I know, it has many counters like chansey, thundurus,and other walls/hard hitters in OU, but it should at least get an A+ rank. If you're thinking heatran is a counter for charizard y - think again! Charizard has access to focus blast that'll easily do a lot of damage to heatran. Or you can run a mixed set consisting of Flare Blitz(to surprise special walls) and earthquake to OHKO heatran. A mixed char y set is very viable. Overall,Mega Charizard Y is a big threat in this metagame and it should definitely deserve more love like his brother over there because THIS MEGA IS A POWERHOUSE.
Sun teams died when weather was nerfed, and Y isn't going back up to A+ for its offensive capabilities since it dropped for needing too much support to be considered A+. If anything will raise it, it's the defensive set several people have brought up the looks decently promising.First post outside of LC.Wish me luck.
Charizard-Mega Y A rank --> A+ rank WHY: Well, we all know everyone's favorite mega charizard evolution(looks at S rank), but that's no way to put charizard Y down.Charizard Y has one of the greatest abilitys in the game,Drought,which opens up to incredible team options.You can make a sun team with some clorophyll abusers like venusaur to help sweep with mega charizard y.Hey, clorodrought is a threat in LC, it can be just as good in OU,too. If you don't want to make a clorophyll team, you make charizard y's 154 spatk to use. With that beastly special attack stat, you could abuse it with a powerful STAB fire balst to kill almost every poke that is weak to it or takes normal damage from it. It also has useful recovery since it can learn roost. Yes, I know, it has many counters like chansey, thundurus,and other walls/hard hitters in OU, but it should at least get an A+ rank. If you're thinking heatran is a counter for charizard y - think again! Charizard has access to focus blast that'll easily do a lot of damage to heatran. Or you can run a mixed set consisting of Flare Blitz(to surprise special walls) and earthquake to OHKO heatran. A mixed char y set is very viable. Overall,Mega Charizard Y is a big threat in this metagame and it should definitely deserve more love like his brother over there because THIS MEGA IS A POWERHOUSE.
First post outside of LC.Wish me luck.
Charizard-Mega Y A rank --> A+ rank WHY: Well, we all know everyone's favorite mega charizard evolution(looks at S rank), but that's no way to put charizard Y down.Charizard Y has one of the greatest abilitys in the game,Drought,which opens up to incredible team options.You can make a sun team with some clorophyll abusers like venusaur to help sweep with mega charizard y.Hey, clorodrought is a threat in LC, it can be just as good in OU,too. If you don't want to make a clorophyll team, you make charizard y's 154 spatk to use. With that beastly special attack stat, you could abuse it with a powerful STAB fire balst to kill almost every poke that is weak to it or takes normal damage from it. It also has useful recovery since it can learn roost. Yes, I know, it has many counters like chansey, thundurus,and other walls/hard hitters in OU, but it should at least get an A+ rank. If you're thinking heatran is a counter for charizard y - think again! Charizard has access to focus blast that'll easily do a lot of damage to heatran. Or you can run a mixed set consisting of Flare Blitz(to surprise special walls) and earthquake to OHKO heatran. A mixed char y set is very viable. Overall,Mega Charizard Y is a big threat in this metagame and it should definitely deserve more love like his brother over there because THIS MEGA IS A POWERHOUSE.
Unfortunately, the whole "Hurh but Sun boosted 159 SpA Fire Blasts" argument is reallypoor and while in LC, yes Sun teams are pretty good, Sun in OU is nonexistant as the abusers are completely useless outside of it, not to mention CharY using the sun for himself most of the time. Char Y just has a lot of issues if you're referring to its offensive set, which lost a lot of its lustre. The only way I could see it moving up is if its defensive set is any good but CharX has a similar set that beats some more important threats, for example Thund-I, which shits on CharY.
MilkyWay01 I never said that Mega Tyranitar is a Stealth Rock setter. I said that you think that it is a Stealth Rock showing you have never used it or faced a good user of it. Mega Tyranitar is a DD sweeper and it's not outclassed by shit. If it was outclassed it would be sitting it C Rank because it was eclipsed by them. You said that taking "that much damage from common priority attacks sucks", but Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados are not much different. MegaZardX is taking over 60% from Brave Bird, the most common priority attack in OU. It is soft walled by Azumarill which is worse than just taking 50% from Aqua Jet since it screws it with Play Rough. Most teams don't carry more than 2 priority users unless your name is TNT. Mega Gyarados is walled by Azumarill since it easily survives EQ and retaliates with Play Rough. It is taking a lot from Brave Bird too, ands here are several things that don't give a crap about it like Kyurem-B, Keldeo, and Mandibuzz. Mega Tyranitar has a different set of checks and counters so they shouldn't even be compared as sweepers. M Tyranitar even let's you use Excadrill. It has an easier time setting up setting up on stuff like LO Greninja. It's a terrifying sweeper and you should not asses a PKMN viability when you have never used one or faced a good player use it. You also have not stated a single reason why it should drop. You only said it's outclassed by Tar and is weak to priority meaning it can't sweep with the latter being wrong. Tyranitar can't be compared to it mega form because they don't do the same thing. M Tar is a sweeper not a support mon like the base form.
You actually want the last four in Defense cause it gives you a odd HP number and slightly more physical bulk, but I second this.Mega Tyranitar - Literally the only thing Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados have in common is that they're ridiculously bulky Dark-type set-up sweepers. As mentioned previously, their array of checks and counters is vastly different and slowly turns slimmer the more DDs they can get in (if they get a second DD in, you're p much fucked). Mega Tyranitar's bulk is absolutely vast for a set-up sweeper; with 4 HP EV investment, it reaches 342 HP/336 Def/414 SDef (Sandstorm-bolstered). When something weak to Azumarill's CB Aqua Jet lives said move, it's bulky as all fuck. Mega Tyranitar is such an amazing late-game sweeper because of its immense power, astronomical bulk and crucial Speed tier, hitting 397 Speed at +1, which is basically a positive base 131. For something with such bulk, that's fast, people. Despite having seven weaknesses, its massive uninvested bulk more than makes up for it by being able to take many hits regular Tyranitar would crumble to, on top of being faster and easier to use than Scarf Tyranitar, especially with the liberty of its moves. With all of these amazing traits, Mega Tyranitar should remain A+.
My bad, i saw the bolded part of your previous post and got confused. Anyways you insisted that i said mega tyranitar is a stealth rock setter, which i did not. In my original post, i said that Mega Tyranitar is outclassed by base Tyranitar as a stealth rock setter, not that it is one. You misread my post then I misread yours which makes things very confusing. We both know that Mega Tyranitar's only role in OU is as a dragon dancer so let's stick to talking about that. Also, I clarified what I meant by Mega Tyranitar being "outclassed" by Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X in my previous post. Ill quote myself here because you must have skimmed over this part seeing as you think that I believe Mega Tyranitar is completely eclipsed by Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X.
To restate what I said in my original post Mega Tyranitar's only viable role in OU is as a bulky dragon dancer, and as a bulky dragon dancer that takes up a mega slot it usually isnt as good as other bulky dragon dancers such as Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard X. I covered the reasoning behind this assessment in my first post which is only a page back for those who didnt see it. But ill briefly sum up my arguments anyways. Mega Tyranitar has superior bulk statistically, however it's shitty defensive typing and lack of reliable recovery hold it back. Mega Gyarados is almost as bulky statistically and has intimidate plus two good defensive typings it can switch between and mega zard x can afford to invest in bulk and has roost. Offensively speaking Mega tyranitar has a bad case of 4mss and has to rely on stone edge. Charizard X is more powerful and has good coverage. Sure, its walled by azumarill if it lacks thunder punch which gives it a slight case of 4mss, but if it didnt have checks and counters it wouldnt be ou. Mega gyarados is only slightly less powerful than mega tar ,but has great coverage in three moves and mold breaker to augment its coverage (rotom-w gets malled by earthquake and thick fat and multiscale allow gyarados to beat venusaur and dragonite).
Being sort of "outclassed" by these two is a reason for mega tyranitar to move down. Thats why Salamence is C, Staraptor's B-, Thundurus-T is C+, Florges and Donphan are unranked, kingdra is B because of kabutops, etc. etc. Mega Tyranitar should be a rank lower than mega gyarados to reflect this.
But besides being "outclassed" Mega Tyranitar has a lot of trouble setting up, which imo is its' biggest flaw. Just looking at the S through A- rank what can it set up on safely?
Aegislash: sacred sword or toxic
Charizard X: must be weary of will-o-wisp
Landorus: earth power or focus blast
Thundurus: t-wave, possibly focus blasr
Mega Mawile: play rough
Azumarill: waterfall + aqua jet
Bisharp: iron head + sucker punch takes mega tar down about half the time
Clefable: must watch out for toxic or t-wave
Excadrill: excadrill 2hko with earthquake and outspeeds after a dd due to sand rush
Garchomp: cant set up on scarfchomp, lo chomp has a 25% chance ohko mega tar, 93.8% after stealth rock
Greninja: yes, but hydro pump still hurts
Mega Gyarados: mega tar is actually faster but cant set up and win, even without intimidate
Keldeo: secret sword
Mega Pinsir: yes
Mega Scizor: bullet punch 2hko
Talonflame: must watch out for will-o-wisp
Tyranitar: depends on the tyarnitar set
Mega Tyranitar: lol
Mega Venusaur: yes, but leech seed hurts, giga drain can be annoying, and sleep powder is a possibility
Charizard Y:
Dragonite: yes, but youre still taking a beating
Ferrothorn: gyro ball hurts, leech seed + protect also hurts, thunder wave shuts mega tar down. Mega tar also really wants a fire move here
Gengar: will-o-wisp
Gliscor: toxic greatly shortens mega tars lifespan, especially in tandem with protect.
Heatran: will-o-wisp, toxic, or roar
Hippowdon: whirlwind or toxic, also can hurt it with earthquake
Landorus-T: cant set up on the scarf set and only sets up after intimidate with an ice move
Mandibuzz: foul play hurts a lot after a dd or it could use toxic
Latias: yes
Latios: yes
Rotom-W: will-o-wisp
Terrakion: close combat
Breloom: mach punch
Chansey: thunder wave or toxic
Diggersby: earthquake ohko
Mega Gardevoire: will-o-wisp or maybe even focus blast
Gyarados: mega tar is actually faster but cant set up and win, even without intimidate
Kyurem-B: yes, kyurem-b cant even scratch mega tar unless it runs outrage (which does about half with leftovers)
Mamoswine: lo earthquake + ice shard 2hko. Can't set up on sash set due to sash either lol
Manaphy: if manaphy goes for the tail glow it wins all but 6.3% of the time not factoring in stealth rock or stone miss
Skarmory: whirlwind
This is why i personally dont find mega tyranitar to be an A+ pokemon. It has difficulty setting up on much of the ou metagame and even when it sets up it still needs to watch out for priority and scarfers. I'll play out the typical scenario: You take some damage setting up on something you can actually set up on. You kill it or they switch. Then you get picked off by priority or a scarfer. Or something takes a hit and either hits hard back, phazes you or statuses you. And then there's thundurus, but i guess thundurus stops almost all set up sweepers...and lets say all of this stuff is out of the way you better be praying stone edge doesnt miss. Regardless, Mega Tyranitar needs a lot of shit gone before it can sweep which requires team support that contributes to why i believe mega tyranitar should drop to A rank.
Srn9130 just a little nitpick but i dont see why zard x would run enough speed to outspeed a jolly base 70 but not a jolly base 71 when both are common ou pokes whom it would like to burn. And youre right, sacking mandibuzz to attack for a resisted foul play might seem retarded, but if you need to get it in aqua jet range iand have no other answer to mega tar it isnt. I suppose mandibuzz doesnt stop mega tar from setting up but it can easily hurt it through toxic and foul play. Finally, when the opponent sees your mega tar they know its a dragon dancer, so they will be at least hesitant to switch out if they cant handle a mega tar after a dragon dance. Obviously they still might switch, especially if mega tar is in base form, but sweeping with mega tar isnt as easy as coming in on something you can kill, getting a free dragon dance with no consequencs, and then proceeding to sweep
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Pal i dunno about you but if mega tar has so much difficulty setting up as a dragon dancer then how the hell does any dragon dancer not named a dragonite with multiscale intact even set up anywhere? Going by this logic Mega Pinsir, Mega Char-x, Mega Gyarados, and basically any other set up sweeper would never even get a chance to set up no matter what.
Clearly, that's wrong, pokemon do get a chance to set up. Wanna know why? Because they don't have to.
Lets take your Char-x example real quick. So this is what you said:
So lets assume that mega tyranitar is actually mega and has base 71 speed. At worst, bulky char-x outpaces jolly loom, and nothing more. So, as the bulky zard-x player, are you seriously gonna stay in and will-o-wisp? What if Mega tar just straight up stone edge's and kills you off the bat? You needed that char-x to check a fuckton of shit including that wallbreaker thundurus but nope now you're kinda fucked.
This situation follows with several pokemon on the list, and I find it absurd that you'd even mention that they should even do anything back. Like mandibuzz? Hello? Why the hell are you sacking a bulky ass bird in order to get off a resisted foul play on a fucking mega tyranitar? That's just retarded!
This concept applies to practically any set up sweeper: you scare something out by threatening to just attack and kill it and instead you set up. Your list makes it seem like mega tar is a frail little fuck that can't set up on anything, but the reality is that once you get a free switch-in against that latios with ur mega tar, then the opposing HO team has likely just been swept. You can create a list for each and every single mega like you did for mega tar but the fact is none of that really matters. If your mega can set up on one or two very common pokemon found on HO teams, that's enough. After all, you only need one turn to set up and sweep with these babies.
The issue with the list is that you say that Mega Tyranitar can't set on most of these mons because they may be running Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, or a phazing move, but every physical set-up sweeper can be messed up by burns, paralysis and/or phazing. Mega Gyarados is messed up by burns, paralysis and phazing as well, but I don't think anyone here wants him to drop in the viability list because of this. Thus, I don't see why Mega-Tyranitar should be penalized for something that almost all set-up sweepers are inherently weak to.
Mega Tyranitar is not outclassed by Charizard X or Gyarados it just faces competition, Mega Tyranitar has way more bulk then both could ever dream of so it's easy to get even 2 DD's and it can be paired up with Sand Rush Excadrill. Charizard X, Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar each have their advantages like another example is how DD Zard X has trouble getting past Mandibuzz where as M Ttar doesn't and how M Ttar has trouble getting past Skarmory without a Fire move or how Gyarados can get past Quagsire but M Ttar and X Zard can't really.
Im just popping in to say that the bolded statement simply isnt true. TTar comes in on something it forces out, then DDs on the switch. Say Azu or something else that can OHKO it comes in (or at least something that puts it in priority range for something else). Youre not getting a second DD up unless you want to waste your TTar. (for the sake of this argument the poke that comes in can be killed at +1).
Everything else makes sense tho.
Edit: Sorry alexwolf. didnt see your post till i posted. Didnt refresh the page.
I propose MEGA AERO THE GOD for B+. It's simply really effective at what you want it to do. It has 2 sets that rape a respective play style(stall or offense)not to mention its typing makes pinsir and talonflame cry. it has phenomenal speed, decent bulk, and taunt+roost to lets it assrape stall and still do well vs offense w/ its power and tough claws boosted coverage. i think its more comparable to the likes of kabutops and torn-t than lucario and conkeldurr. but, with this troll typing comes a weakness to 3 forms of priority, which are quite common, i might add. but when all said and done, MEGA AERO THE GOD deserves B+.
The problem I (and many others) have with Mega Aero is his piss poor coverage options that are above 70 BP. Tough Claws is nice and all to somewhat alleviate this, but it still doesnt give that big of a boost. Not even his best STAB, Stone Edge, is boosted by it. On top of that, base 135 Attack is average at best when you consider that things that are on par or below it usually run items that alleviate this (and most other Megas have a shiton more power). Yeah hes a good Bird Spam check and can somewhat stallbreak with a Taunt set, but he really doesnt do much outside of this and takes away the mega slot from something else that is usually much better. tbh I dont see him on par with Suicune, Amoonguss, or Mega Garchomp. B is fine fore him. He fits there perfectly, just like Mega Manectric and Conk - decent mons who can fill roles on certain teams, but dont do much outside of that.
Mega Aero can run adamant because its so fucking fast so i don't see where the power argument comes from ?_?
Just like TTar, DNite, Excadrill, Mawile, Conkeldurr, Kyubes, Mega Chomp, Mega Scizor, Mega Gyarados, Azumarill, Aegislash, and Diggersby? Cuz all of those are more powerful than Aero and run Adamant, and the non megas can run LO/Band to increase it further. 135 Attack is average nowadays, and when you have piss weak coverage move and only Hone Claws as a way to boost, its not doing you any favors.
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