Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[alexwolf]

The problem is that not everyone disagrees, alexwolf is talking to people privately as well.

I'm really not really liking all these private discussions, though. The whole point of having this thread is to gauge, as a community, how a Pokemon fares. I'd personally like to see a rule where, if you have an opinion on a ranking, you need to put something in either this thread or the VR one. A couple lines explaining your thoughts doesn't take very long, and keeps controversial surprises like this from happening. Having most of the discussions and decisions done privately really sucks for anyone who isn't a tournament player, seeing as they can neither take part in the discussion nor see why these others people disagree with their opinion (never mind who these people are in the first place). Obviously, a tournament player's opinion matters more than your average poster's, but let's pretend Smogon is slightly democratic, okay? :)

What you propose is an unneeded limitation that would only make the thread worse, as some good players with opinions about rank changes wouldn't post. As for you, the readers of the thread, knowing why a change happened, this is why you have me explaining every change in a nutshell with each update. Yeah, having more tour players posting would be sweet, but this is not the way about making those guys post here.

And what do you mean by having most of the discussion and decisions done privately? If you haven't noticed, the vast majority of the changes posted in each update have already been discussed in this thread.

Finally, let's not make things dramatic guys. I get that a lot of you disagree with Tyranitar dropping, which is why i already said that i might put it back after a few days if i see some good arguments supporting its raise. However, posts such as ''it's clear that the majority wants it to move up so do it already'' or ''why did this even happen'' will be deleted instantly.

 

[Nog]

The problem is that not everyone disagrees, alexwolf is talking to people privately as well.

I'm really not really liking all these private discussions, though. The whole point of having this thread is to gauge, as a community, how a Pokemon fares. I'd personally like to see a rule where, if you have an opinion on a ranking, you need to put something in either this thread or the VR one. A couple lines explaining your thoughts doesn't take very long, and keeps controversial surprises like this from happening. Having most of the discussions and decisions done privately really sucks for anyone who isn't a tournament player, seeing as they can neither take part in the discussion nor see why these others people disagree with their opinion (never mind who these people are in the first place). Obviously, a tournament player's opinion matters more than your average poster's, but let's pretend Smogon is slightly democratic, okay? :)

as much as you want this most tour players can't be assed to actually contribute to discussion or post something here even if they have a solid argument. This is why we always go on irc to talk to them so we can have their opinions on things without them having to make a big long post that's actually coherent. Also, don't kid yourself, smogon isn't democratic.

 

[Lexifox]

ALexwolf standards are TOO HIGH. this is the same guy that isnt sure charizard x should be s rank http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/69784136?page=1

 

[Numera]

Tyranitar is a versatile threat that can do all sorts of things. Scarfed Pursuit trapper, banded, SR setter... honestly there's just quite a lot Ttar can run. It's sandstorm boosted spdef and already high defence make this Pokemon very bulky as well. 100/110/150 in Sand is fantastic bulk. I also want to mention how Tyranitar is the governor of Sand Offence, a fantastic playstyle. We all already know why Sand Offence is so good. Why shouldn't the thing that makes it possible be A+, you ask? It's weakness to common types and coverage. Poor Ttar has a hard time actually getting in now days, even with that fantastic bulk. Consider the fact that all of S Rank can hit TTar (any Ttar) very well through either STABS or coverage. Look at all the Pokemon like this in A Rank too. Ttar just has a hard time coming in because a large portion of Pokemon in the metagame can easily prevent the thing from coming in safely or limit the amount of times it DOES come in. Things like that are very bad for sand offence as losing Ttar and then losing Sand is never a good thing. So, I wouldn't allow it A+ through Sand Offence. As for it's other traits, they don't push it to A+ imo. A Rank is fine.

Also gonna quote Albacore's post on Rotom-W for A-. Posted a while back, but the update changed nothing about it. The argument was never debunked either.

Rotom-W absolutely does not deserve to move to A+, if anything, it should move down to A-. I mean yeah, it's a decent pivot who checks flyspam and sand offense, but it's pretty weak, not all that bulky, really easy to wear down, vunerable to chip damage, and very exploitable, not to mention that it has a bunch of solid counters and it's honestly not very good in most matchups. Any HO team that isn't sand or birdspam will just run through it, Stall often has multiple anwsers to it (Venu, Amoonguss, XZard, Chansey unless you run the TrickScarf set which you shouldn't because it's garbage, heck even SpD Gliscor can stall it out), and anything in between can easily chip away at it or just straight-up attack it.
The Aegi ban was almost certainly unfavorable to it for a few reasons, firstly, Pinsir can now use CC and, at +2, deal over 67% to it (and getting a Rotom-W to 2/3 of its max HP is not hard at all), and secondly, a few of its old counters such as the Latis and to a lesser extent Celebi benefitted from the ban and will probably gain popularity as a result.

Simply put, Rotom-W has way too many faults to even be considered for A+. In a similar vein, Landorus-T who was suggested for A+ a while ago really should stay A for much the same reasons : gets worn down, not hard to counter, easy to check, not that powerful, though it doesn't suffer from any of these nearly as much as Rotom-W does and fills the same role of flyspam check+sand HO check+physically defensive pivot with the advantage of being able to set rocks, and has a Choice Scarf set that is actually not terrible so it would make sense for it to be one rank above Rotom-W.

For the record, after reading what Jukain said, I now disagree with the above quote.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

Unpopular opinion time: Ninetales for D.

I get it. It's terrible, it's outclassed mostly by Zard Y, yadda yadda. It's rather bad and using one often feels like you're down one mon at the start of each match. But with all the talk of MegaDoom rising, perhaps we can consider its best teammate, the one auto-sun setter that doesn't take a Mega Slot?

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

well making a quick nom b4 school starts

mence for c

it simply isn't as bad as shit like umbreon, ludicolo and tornadus-i. it has a good scarf set that actually doesnt miss out on many revenge kills(well jolly zard x speed ties but irrelevant) compared to chomp, and can actually clean really well late game. will expand when i come home from school.

 

[koista12]

Unpopular opinion time: Ninetales for D.

I get it. It's terrible, it's outclassed mostly by Zard Y, yadda yadda. It's rather bad and using one often feels like you're down one mon at the start of each match. But with all the talk of MegaDoom rising, perhaps we can consider its best teammate, the one auto-sun setter that doesn't take a Mega Slot?

I would rather use sunny day on mega doom than Ninetales. Ninetales take up a valuable teamslot, stacks weaknesses, and is incredibly mediocre. It has low offensive presence and an average movepool. I dont see why anyone would use it in OU.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

I would rather use sunny day on mega doom than Ninetales. Ninetales take up a valuable teamslot, stacks weaknesses, and is incredibly mediocre. It has low offensive presence and an average movepool. I dont see why anyone would use it in OU.

In Ninetales' defense, it has serviceable bulk and speed, and a good enough support movepool. Having things like WoW, Hypnosis, and Morning Sun allows it to be somewhat helpful outside of providing sun. Weather wars aren't really a thing anymore so it doesn't have to worry about Toed as much.

I'm not pretending Tales is good. It isn't, and I know that. But, it does have one trick, and this trick allows Houndoom to become much more dangerous by letting it run some Hidden Power or Sucker Punch instead of limiting it to two attacking moves.

 

[Jukain]

yea but the thing about rotom-w is that it's a momentum machine. unless the opponent has a free switch something is going to have to take that volt switch and you get free momentum, and sending in your ground-type can be risky anyways... it's a good answer to bird spam, sand exca, normal gyarados which people have actually started to use somewhat, landt, and poses a 1v1 threat to almost every physical attacker as while easy to wear down, it's not easy to ko and bam your physical threat was crippled with a burn, which really nothing appreciates besides status absorbers.

Rotom-W absolutely does not deserve to move to A+, if anything, it should move down to A-. I mean yeah, it's a decent pivot who checks flyspam and sand offense, but it's pretty weak, not all that bulky, really easy to wear down, vunerable to chip damage, and very exploitable, not to mention that it has a bunch of solid counters and it's honestly not very good in most matchups. Any HO team that isn't sand or birdspam will just run through it, Stall often has multiple anwsers to it (Venu, Amoonguss, XZard, Chansey unless you run the TrickScarf set which you shouldn't because it's garbage, heck even SpD Gliscor can stall it out), and anything in between can easily chip away at it or just straight-up attack it.

i dunno man, i've always thought venu and chansey weren't really the best answers for it. venu gets burnt and it hates that a lot, all that chip damage is majorly crippling to it. and chansey gets worn down hella fast with rocks and vswitch. i don't see how it's dead weight vs these ho teams. for me rotom-w is one of those mons that always pulls some weight against those teams. what's their rocker? there, it pulled some weight. chomp, landi, mamo, terrak, tar, these don't like going 1v1 with rotom-w. do they have an azumarill? what about a talonflame? is it sand offense? do they have a pinsir? lemme give a couple examples of matches that show what i mean.

flcl vs aim http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-17899

flcl had a fucking celebi and rotom still managed to do some work. free momentum with volt switches + burned the rocker + checked maw...i'd say that's not a bad job for 'being run through'.

aim vs tgmd http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-17021

this isn't exactly hyper offense that tgmd brought but it's still not this offense with birds or sand. anyways rotom-w manages to do a lot in this matchup. it wears down thundurus significantly, it gets easy pivots off of skarmory, it kills off tar, and it ultimately beats bisharp despite being significantly weakened.

i think the flaws of rotom-w are being overexaggerated and that it's actually significantly better than is being said if played well. there's rarely a match where it does nothing, and vs birds and exca sand it can be an invaluable contributor. a is perfectly fine for it.

 

[alexwolf]

ALexwolf standards are TOO HIGH. this is the same guy that isnt sure charizard x should be s rank http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/69784136?page=1

For one last time, i am not the only one that decides the ranks. My opinion doesn't even matter more than the opinion of other people that i talk with and if you want an example, take Keldeo, which i didn't want to raise to S rank but did it anyway because other people convinced me. I may have high standards, but this is irrelevant when i talk with 4-5 other people about changes before making them.

 

[Karxrida]

Unpopular opinion time: Ninetales for D.

I get it. It's terrible, it's outclassed mostly by Zard Y, yadda yadda. It's rather bad and using one often feels like you're down one mon at the start of each match. But with all the talk of MegaDoom rising, perhaps we can consider its best teammate, the one auto-sun setter that doesn't take a Mega Slot?

Sun as a playstyle died when weather was nerfed and Talonflame was created.

Keep it unranked.

 

[Gloating]

Yeah Ninetales sucks I've tried using it before weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help it and it's easily walled by Heatran who can just keep roaring or Talonflame and Tyranitar and it just doesn't like switching in too much, it's way better to use a manual sun setter if you want to use Mega Houndoom or whatever in sun.

Anyways back to Tyranitar, even though most of what needed to be said has been said, it also gives you an answer to Drizzle swift swim teams because if you're using HO without it it's tougher to deal with from my experience. TerrorDave makes some good points, we all know Tyranitar has common weaknesses but that's why you got teammates so it's not supposed to stay in on said attacks but it still has a ton of bulk to take them even some Superpowers fail to KO. The fact that it's why Sand Offense exists and probably the best HO playstyle and also giving your team a Stealth Rock setter, Bird Spam check, Trapper, all in one makes it A+ or even S in my book. I know this shouldn't be used as an argument but come on this thing has very high usage for a reason. If this still doesn't convince alexwolf Idk what will.

 

[Numera]

Yeah Ninetales sucks I've tried using it before weakness to Stealth Rock doesn't help it and it's easily walled by Heatran who can just keep roaring or Talonflame and Tyranitar and it just doesn't like switching in too much, it's way better to use a manual sun setter if you want to use Mega Houndoom or whatever in sun.

Anyways back to Tyranitar, even though most of what needed to be said has been said, it also gives you an answer to Drizzle swift swim teams because if you're using HO without it it's tougher to deal with from my experience. TerrorDave makes some good points, we all know Tyranitar has common weaknesses but that's why you got teammates so it's not supposed to stay in on said attacks but it still has a ton of bulk to take them even some Superpowers fail to KO. The fact that it's why Sand Offense exists and probably the best HO playstyle and also giving your team a Stealth Rock setter, Bird Spam check, Trapper, all in one makes it A+ or even S in my book. I know this shouldn't be used as an argument but come on this thing has very high usage for a reason. If this still doesn't convince alexwolf Idk what will.

I mean, while Sand makes Rain Offence easier to deal with by removing the rain, it still struggles to switch in on things like Specs Kingdra, Keldeo, Politoed, Kabutops, ect. They still hit hard enough to wear it down gradually, limiting his usefulness against the playstyle. Honestly if you want to check Rain Offence and still check Birdspam, Thundurus does exactly that (still struggles to switch in :[). Not a rock setter tho. And it you're running balanced, Ferrothorn does an excellent jon. Also the problem I have with saying that it's a birdspam check AND an SR user annoys me, because if you're running SR on Ttar you're not running scarf, meaning you don't check birdspam due to MPinsir's CC and Staraptor's CC. It can do multiple things for offensive teams, it just feels too hard to switch in sometimes, limiting it's usefulness. I also see Sand Offence as Ttar's main selling point, and to me, that isn't enough to push it into A+. Great playstyle and all, really great, just weak to multiple common Pokemon that fuck it.

 

[theV8man]

So a couple of things:

1. One of the advantages that Cresselia has over Mew besides the greater bulk is its utility on TR. People dismiss Cresselia's effectiveness on TR because TR is such an "uncommon playstyle." Uncommon doesn't mean unviable. As someone who has played a lot of TR and gone quite high on the ladder with it, Cresselia is the boss when it comes to this playstyle. Because of this poke, TR sweepers that have been heavily damaged/crippled can be resuscitated and be back in wrecking order. The Lunar Dance/TR combo is amazing as TR sweepers are given a second chance. This, and it's crazy bulk makes it imo a candidate for C+. There are other pokemon that are amazing under TR (Crawdaunt), and I don't normally advocate raising Pokemon's ranks just because of TR, but Cresselia's utility is just that good.

2. I don't really agree with this thing dropping down. One of the reasons given as to why it should drop is because it "gets walled easily" if I remember correctly. But after a defiant boost, what walls Bisharp? Chesnaught. Defensive Chars. That's really it. Not to mention this guy is the most viable Defiant user in OU, and everything hates taking Knock Off from it. Also, because of Defiant, Bisharp can drop SD and use Pursuit to give it even more utility by wearing stuff like Chansey down for powerful special attackers. Bisharp also has great synergy with common OU wallbreakers like Mega Heracross/Mega Gardevoir. Bisharp also loves the rising popularity of stuff like Slowbro/Bronzong. The only reason I can see for this dropping down is that Bisharp is checked by Fighting types, especially Keldeo.

3. Plz raise this back to A+. It's scarf set is amazing as it handles Thundy, birdspam, and can get some surprise kills. This thing just has so many viable sets/moves you can use.

4. Earlier in this thread alexwolf got ridiculed for questioning Char X's position in S... and I honestly have the same opinion as him. Theres just quite a lot of stuff that can handle its DD set (Hippowdon, Slowbro, Azumarill, Thundy, Heatran (sometimes)) and it's bulky Will O Wisp can just get killed by powerful ground/rock coverage, which every team should have. The best thing I see going for it is unpredictablilty...

 

[Kyuzeth]

Mega Manectric (B) -> B+ | Mega Manectric once again gets more useful in the OU tier because of one important reason: it's the best offensive check to Flying Spam. With its blazingly high 135 Speed, Mega Manectric outspeeds every non-Scarfed Flying-type in OU, which includes Mega Aerodactyl, who outspeeds all the other Electric-types and OHKOes them: Raikou falls to Earthquake, while Zapdos and Thundurus (both Formes) are slain by Stone Edge. Mega Manectric can avoid the OHKO thanks to Intimidate, then OHKO back with Thunderbolt. Mega Manectric also hardwalls most Scizor variants, since non-specially defensive variants are OHKOed by Flamethrower (I'm not even sure if that's a thing), while Ferrothorn, a Pokémon Raikou struggles to beat, is OHKOed by Flamethrower more than half the time after taking SR damage. Mega Manectric really makes excellent use of its Ability and Speed combined with its access to Volt Switch; Mega Manectric is one of the fastest scouts in OU capable of crippling many physical threats on the switch-in and opening an opportunity for a team member to set up for a sweep. In its regular phase, Manectric can come in on a well-predicted Electric-type move and buff its Special Attack, then Mega Evolve to go Choice Specs with the liberty of switching moves, making many 2HKOs into OHKOs and turning it into a deadly sweeper. It's risky, but highly effective when successfully pulled off.
What keep Mega Manectric from the A-Ranks are its lack of resistances, its special frailty and its lack of power at times. It struggles to beat Mega Venusaur, unlike Thundurus-I and Raikou, among a few other Pokémon. Lastly, the thunderdog is worn down quite quickly due to its inability to hold any other item than the Manectite and thus having no Leftovers recovery; combined with Intimidate, however, Mega Manectric can stomach Knock Offs much better than any of the other Electric-types in the tier. Overall, Mega Manectric is an underrated threat in OU, be it as a reliable, fast scout or as the best offensive check to Flying Spam. Mega Manectric for B+.

Raikou (B) -> B+ | On that note, I'd like to see Raikou rise to B+ along with Mega Manectric. I've elaborated on their differences many times, so I'm only going to do so again if there's demand for it. Raikou trades the ability to scout and reliably beat Steel-types for more versatility thanks to being capable to hold items: Specs makes it a killer, Assault Vest makes it a great check against many special threats and Life Orb amps up its power while retaining the ability to switch moves. Calm Mind sets are highly dangerous thanks to their great power and special survivability, while having good coverage to boot. Extrasensory helps it get past Mega Venusaur, Shadow Ball strikes the many Psychic-types hard (mainly the Eons) and Hidden Power Ice enables it to hit the many Dragon-types in the tier. It's got a great Speed of 115, too, which makes it a powerful attacker when combined with 115 Special Attack.
Raikou, like its fellow Electric-type, does have some flaws. It has more trouble getting past Steel-types, especially Ferrothorn, it's physically frail and suffers from a mild case of 4MSS when running Calm Mind. Additionally, AV is kind of slow and susceptible to being eviscerated by physical attackers. Don't let this deter you from using Raikou, though, as its versatility and overall effectiveness make it really useful when played to their strengths. Raikou for B+.

Bottom line, these two Electric-type bruisers are quite different and each check their own shit with what they have to offer. They're fast, reliable Electric-types that can easily be fit to fit on teams that need support and are both versatile in their own way; just don't play one like the other or you'll end up with a shitty version of what you're trying to use. They're far from being in the same league as Thundurus-I and both can really easily be taken advantage of by Pokémon like Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar and Mega Charizard X, but they're at least on Mega Garchomp's level. Both of these Electric-type beasts should rise to B+.

And I'm quoting my post to drop Zapdos again, since there are things that deal with Birdspam better and it's not a good Defogger due to a severe case of 4MSS.

Zapdos (B) -> B | Yeah, I think it's about time Zapdos falls to B Rank. Thunderburd had a niche in being able to check Aegislash and a few other Steels, but with Aegislash banned, a Pokémon that Zapdos could check quite well, it's lost another one of its uses. As Albacore pointed out, Starmie now performs vastly better with Aegi out of the tier and makes for a solid hazard remover. Despite its use as a Defogger, Zapdos suffers from having a SR weakness, which hampers it a lot in that regard. As an offensive Pokémon, Raikou and Thundurus-I do the job far better and Mega Manectric provides useful Intimidate support while having the same Fire-type coverage; it's also much stronger than defensive/Defog Zapdos and has nearly unoutspeedable Volt Switches. Zapdos has good Speed at best, at 100, making it vulnerable to being RK'd as an attacker. Unlike Thundurus-I or Raikou, it has no Special Attack-boosting options and unlike Mega Manectric, running Defog gives it 4MSS: without Heat Wave it loses to several Steel-types and without HP Ice Garchomp and Mega Charizard X shit all over it. Mega Charizard X can just set up on Zapdos all it wants, too.
All in all, I feel like Zapdos has really lost its luster in OU as of now. Move it down to B.

 

[Srn]

So a couple of things:

View attachment 21523 1. One of the advantages that Cresselia has over Mew besides the greater bulk is its utility on TR. People dismiss Cresselia's effectiveness on TR because TR is such an "uncommon playstyle." Uncommon doesn't mean unviable. As someone who has played a lot of TR and gone quite high on the ladder with it, Cresselia is the boss when it comes to this playstyle. Because of this poke, TR sweepers that have been heavily damaged/crippled can be resuscitated and be back in wrecking order. The Lunar Dance/TR combo is amazing as TR sweepers are given a second chance. This, and it's crazy bulk makes it imo a candidate for C+. There are other pokemon that are amazing under TR (Crawdaunt), and I don't normally advocate raising Pokemon's ranks just because of TR, but Cresselia's utility is just that good.

View attachment 21524 2. I don't really agree with this thing dropping down. One of the reasons given as to why it should drop is because it "gets walled easily" if I remember correctly. But after a defiant boost, what walls Bisharp? Chesnaught. Defensive Chars. That's really it. Not to mention this guy is the most viable Defiant user in OU, and everything hates taking Knock Off from it. Also, because of Defiant, Bisharp can drop SD and use Pursuit to give it even more utility by wearing stuff like Chansey down for powerful special attackers. Bisharp also has great synergy with common OU wallbreakers like Mega Heracross/Mega Gardevoir. Bisharp also loves the rising popularity of stuff like Slowbro/Bronzong. The only reason I can see for this dropping down is that Bisharp is checked by Fighting types, especially Keldeo.

View attachment 21526 3. Plz raise this back to A+. It's scarf set is amazing as it handles Thundy, birdspam, and can get some surprise kills. This thing just has so many viable sets/moves you can use.

View attachment 21527 4. Earlier in this thread alexwolf got ridiculed for questioning Char X's position in S... and I honestly have the same opinion as him. Theres just quite a lot of stuff that can handle its DD set (Hippowdon, Slowbro, Azumarill, Thundy, Heatran (sometimes)) and it's bulky Will O Wisp can just get killed by powerful ground/rock coverage, which every team should have. The best thing I see going for it is unpredictablilty...

I think its important to also mention cresselia's immunity to ground, which is a GIGANTIC plus for cress over mew, because this allows you to counter lando. I mean totally fucking counter it. Even teh sp. def set just sponges up a knock off easily and can Ice Beam for an OHKO, which is especially useful over psychic against CM lando. Moonlight as recovery is kinda sucky, but oh well.

Bisharp should honestly drop. You're correct that its the most viable defiant user in the game, but what does defiant even mean anymore? Without a pressing need to actually remove hazards, defiant doesnt' do much, and without a mon to effectively set multiple hazards (rip deo-d) defiant's viability drastically drops.
Any playstyle can deal with rocks (k maybe not birdspam), and there's a lot less pressure to actually remove JUST rocks in comparison to rocks AND spikes. Without that pressure on the opponent to remove hazards, defiant just sucks.
As for the knock off argument, nothing except for a few megas appreciates knock off, whether it be from LO bisharp or from a measly ferrothorn. You're praising knock off here, not bisharp. Bisharp just happens to be a good user of it.
Lastly, bisharps best set imho, pursuit, has lost a bunch of viability now that it doesn't need to pursuit trap aegislash. Scarftar is better in every goddam way at pursuit trapping lati@s than bisharp is, so no point in using it there.

Basically, the main reason to drop bisharp would be because it has lost so much use, not because its "walled easily" or "checked by fighting types."

Finally, I too kinda question char-x's S rank, but lets be real; the bulky wisp set alone deserves an A+ ranking. Bulky Wisp Char-x is just such a downright amazing set, countering thundurus and bisharp and rotom-w and SO many other goddam pokemon. It catches azu and lando-t on the switch with a clean burn and cripples them for the rest of the match, which is a huge boon to ANY playstyle. I mean there's just little flaws to really take advantage of with bulky wisp char-x; what can beat it 1v1 has an extremely difficult time switching in safely, and whatever doesn't mind burns won't take eq or tough claws dragon claw well, even uninvested.
THEN you add on top of that a fucking monster dragon dancer with nearly unresisted STABs and I think we have ourselves a solid S rank mon lol.

In your defense tho, char-x is very easy to handle as a dragon dancer. With all the sand HO hype and scarfed grounds running about, its really unlikely char-x will ever really sweep; dd is honestly just for breaking holes at this point.

 

[Karxrida]

Bisharp should not be dropping anymore. All of its checks and counters have to predict perfectly to win without taking any damage or losing their item, it's super hard to switch into if you were stupid and Defogged on it, it kills Fairies, turns Intimidaters into liabilities, and can contribute to a win by doing nothing but dying as long as it stopped a Defog.

 

[theV8man]

I think its important to also mention cresselia's immunity to ground, which is a GIGANTIC plus for cress over mew, because this allows you to counter lando. I mean totally fucking counter it. Even teh sp. def set just sponges up a knock off easily and can Ice Beam for an OHKO, which is especially useful over psychic against CM lando. Moonlight as recovery is kinda sucky, but oh well.

Bisharp should honestly drop. You're correct that its the most viable defiant user in the game, but what does defiant even mean anymore? Without a pressing need to actually remove hazards, defiant doesnt' do much, and without a mon to effectively set multiple hazards (rip deo-d) defiant's viability drastically drops.
Any playstyle can deal with rocks (k maybe not birdspam), and there's a lot less pressure to actually remove JUST rocks in comparison to rocks AND spikes. Without that pressure on the opponent to remove hazards, defiant just sucks.
As for the knock off argument, nothing except for a few megas appreciates knock off, whether it be from LO bisharp or from a measly ferrothorn. You're praising knock off here, not bisharp. Bisharp just happens to be a good user of it.
Lastly, bisharps best set imho, pursuit, has lost a bunch of viability now that it doesn't need to pursuit trap aegislash. Scarftar is better in every goddam way at pursuit trapping lati@s than bisharp is, so no point in using it there.

Basically, the main reason to drop bisharp would be because it has lost so much use, not because its "walled easily" or "checked by fighting types."

Finally, I too kinda question char-x's S rank, but lets be real; the bulky wisp set alone deserves an A+ ranking. Bulky Wisp Char-x is just such a downright amazing set, countering thundurus and bisharp and rotom-w and SO many other goddam pokemon. It catches azu and lando-t on the switch with a clean burn and cripples them for the rest of the match, which is a huge boon to ANY playstyle. I mean there's just little flaws to really take advantage of with bulky wisp char-x; what can beat it 1v1 has an extremely difficult time switching in safely, and whatever doesn't mind burns won't take eq or tough claws dragon claw well, even uninvested.
THEN you add on top of that a fucking monster dragon dancer with nearly unresisted STABs and I think we have ourselves a solid S rank mon lol.

In your defense tho, char-x is very easy to handle as a dragon dancer. With all the sand HO hype and scarfed grounds running about, its really unlikely char-x will ever really sweep; dd is honestly just for breaking holes at this point.

Yea Bisharp is definitely worse in this metagame. Looking at it objectively, Bisharp is probably A but because Bisharp used to be my baby in early X and Y I was feeling kinda salty about it dropping lol. Nostalgia aside, I can see this thing becoming A+ once Slowbro/Celebi/Bronzong/Latis get increased usage because of Aegi's banishment.

...But Charizard X. Bulky set seems really good, but Keldeo, Heatran, Gliscor, Conkeldurr (lol) and especially Clefable don't have problems with it. I agree this is A+ I guess. But I can't remember the last time DD Zard X swept my team, and I've gone against my fair share of these. Other S rank mons are way more problematic imo.

 

[Baharoth]

Not to say Bisharp is a bad mon but i think you are overselling it quite a bit.

With the removal of Deo-D and with it the removal of spikes from competitive play (mostly) the pressure on the opponent to use defog is much smaller making its role as a Defog blocker far less valuable. With Aegi gone another one of his mayor roles went out of the window as he is no longer needed to check/trap him. In general he isnt the best trapper as the Latis, his main targets, often carry HP fire/fighting not to mention that he is 2hkoed by basicly every coverage move they have forcing you into 50/50 guessing games.

Without SD he isnt much of a threat as long as the opponent doesnt give him a defiant boost and its never a good thing to rely on the opponent to help you sweep. With SD he can get dangerous on his own but can no longer Pursuit trap reducing his overall utility. And even if he gets that +2, the most he will do is take down one poke as he is easily checked by a number of extremely common mons like Keldeo, Terrakion etc. There is hardly any team out there that is threatened by +2 Bisharp because his checks are so good and viable. The reliance on sucker punch is another issue making him vulnerable to faster wow users and your always risking giving your opponent a free switch to a check cutting the sweep even shorter.

Imo the drop was more than justified and i wouldnt be suprised if he will drop further later on.

Regarding Chari X i think we should drop the discussion for now as he is the next suspect in line so there is no need for a big and probably controversial discussion if he will most likely get banned anyway

 

[Gloating]

Charizard X is the definition of an S-rank Pokemon, it's typing is great both offensively and defensively and let's it wall and check A LOT of common steels and electric types. It's also very unpredictable because first you're not 100% sure if it's Zard Y or Zard X and then there's the fact that it could be DD or WoW so there's a lot of room for error when facing it. Then you also cannot burn it and this thing just hits like a truck, Flare Blitz hits harder than Mega Mawile's Playrough and Dragon Claw hits as hard as Mega Ttar's Stone Edge without the chance to miss. Then there is also SD a great stall breaker and sweeper.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I dont know if this is an appropiate time, but I was too late to fight keldeo and azumarill getting S rank, I mean that seems like a joke to me. Can someone point out a good argument for either of these getting S rank, because I cant find one and would like to see what I should be addressing. I typically think of S rank pokemon as mons I could see getting suspect tested, and keldeo and azumarill are not even close to being suspect worthy while every other S rank mon is....so yeah.

 

[Gloating]

I dont know if this is an appropiate time, but I was too late to fight keldeo and azumarill getting S rank, I mean that seems like a joke to me. Can someone point out a good argument for either of these getting S rank, because I cant find one and would like to see what I should be addressing. I typically think of S rank pokemon as mons I could see getting suspect tested, and keldeo and azumarill are not even close to being suspect worthy while every other S rank mon is....so yeah.

Well I don't agree either but you don't have to be suspect worthy to get in S-rank is what I was told.

 

[blaargathon]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

This pretty much sums up Zard X. No way in hell should he be dropped.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I typically think of S rank pokemon as mons I could see getting suspect tested

Well if you don't think of S-rank that way then they're fine in S-rank. It's possible to have meta where S-ranked mons aren't broken as shit. See: every meta that is not this one.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

I dont know if this is an appropiate time, but I was too late to fight keldeo and azumarill getting S rank, I mean that seems like a joke to me. Can someone point out a good argument for either of these getting S rank, because I cant find one and would like to see what I should be addressing. I typically think of S rank pokemon as mons I could see getting suspect tested, and keldeo and azumarill are not even close to being suspect worthy while every other S rank mon is....so yeah.

They're probably not broken, but they're fantastic. Lemme argue for the aquarabbit at least. Azumarill is just awesome, and I say this grudgingly because most of the Pokemon I love are scared of it. Offense teams cower in fear of powerful CB and AV sets, which have priority. I'm not sold on Sitrus Belly Drum but some people really seem to like it and it is scary if it gets to set up. It has godly bulk and great typing for something that hits so hard, and its Speed isn't as much of an issue when you get a stupidly powerful Aqua Jet. In a meta full of ExcaTar and Bird Spam, Azu shines pretty brightly. It's also really easy to slap on teams and doesn't need a lot of support. Definite S rank for me, and I can't believe it didn't come sooner, but I'm glad it did.

Also, for a more serious nomination: I think Pinsir needs a raise back to S, too. Seriously, now that it can run CC over EQ it just got a LOT scarier. Rotom? Loses a ton of HP to CC. Skarm? Can't switch in anymore for the same reason. Even Tran isn't gonna want to switch in because it's gonna take a load of damage from CC. This thing is fast, hits like a truck, and gets powerful priority to boot, and Flying/Fighting coverage is amazing. Sure you absolutely need to remove rocks but that doesn't stop Thundy and Zard X. Bird spam is a thing despite SR being everywhere, and one reason is because this thing is so damn good.