yeah it doesnt need to be used to be broken but they name the tier overused for a reason. in every tier there are pokemon people dont like using at all, and by calling out these certain suspects make people use them way more than they used to because we are alerting everyone how broken it is same happened with gengar does not mean they should not be banned but if they're rarely used how are they changing the meta at all? but of course if you go on the ladder now you will see way more mawile because the world knows how broken it is in my honest opinion
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]
- Thread starter Nachos
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haunter
Banned deucer.
Deoxys-D was UU when it was suspect tested (and banned) last Generation. Usage doesn't really matter, what matters are the overall effects of a given Pokémon on the metagame when said Pokémon is in the hands of a skilled player. Besides, we're not talking about some obscure threat that's unknown to the ladder. Mawile is 11th in usage in the 1825+ stats, meaning that those who're good at playing the game acknowledge its power and know how to consistently win with it.
On checks and revenge killers: Here’s this.
But basically some Pokemon checks Mega Mawile if it beats her when they both are on the field, but will lose to her if it has to switch into her in a “worst case scenario ” (bar hax). This means revenge killers are checks. They are checks that use the KOing of a teammate as their chance to make a free entrance that avoids the worst case scenario.
Anyway the main point is that M-Mawile has a reasonable list of checks. But her immediate hitting power is ridiculous enough that your lack of willingness to take a M-Mawile hit on one of your key Pokemon make it so she VERY easily forces switches. Which means she very easily can make +2 at most points in the game without much help. And the worst part of that is hitting +2 shortens that list of checks to the very very few Pokes that keep getting mentioned. Basically hitting +2 is one of the “worst case scenarios” for the majority of would be checks as they then lose their ability to win 1 v 1 against a +2 M-Mawile from whom they can only tank +0 hits.
The list of possible checks that aren't dependent on M-Mawile not being at +2 is just way too short.
Also, on Pokemon that have faster priority that makes Sucker Punch fail. This is still another kind of Sucker Punch guessing game. If M-Mawile thinks that a Dragonite is gonna try to take it on (lol) with ESpeed then it can always select Play Rough and still win. Same deal for Bullet Punch and Fire Fang, and so on. It takes a few turns of Priority to take down M-Mawile in these situations and you have to hope that over those 3 or even 4 turns it doesn't wise up, tank your priority move, and then KO you back with non-Sucker Punch. Faster Priority is only a method for revenge killing (checking) a M-Mawile that is already pretty beat down...
But basically some Pokemon checks Mega Mawile if it beats her when they both are on the field, but will lose to her if it has to switch into her in a “worst case scenario ” (bar hax). This means revenge killers are checks. They are checks that use the KOing of a teammate as their chance to make a free entrance that avoids the worst case scenario.
Anyway the main point is that M-Mawile has a reasonable list of checks. But her immediate hitting power is ridiculous enough that your lack of willingness to take a M-Mawile hit on one of your key Pokemon make it so she VERY easily forces switches. Which means she very easily can make +2 at most points in the game without much help. And the worst part of that is hitting +2 shortens that list of checks to the very very few Pokes that keep getting mentioned. Basically hitting +2 is one of the “worst case scenarios” for the majority of would be checks as they then lose their ability to win 1 v 1 against a +2 M-Mawile from whom they can only tank +0 hits.
The list of possible checks that aren't dependent on M-Mawile not being at +2 is just way too short.
Also, on Pokemon that have faster priority that makes Sucker Punch fail. This is still another kind of Sucker Punch guessing game. If M-Mawile thinks that a Dragonite is gonna try to take it on (lol) with ESpeed then it can always select Play Rough and still win. Same deal for Bullet Punch and Fire Fang, and so on. It takes a few turns of Priority to take down M-Mawile in these situations and you have to hope that over those 3 or even 4 turns it doesn't wise up, tank your priority move, and then KO you back with non-Sucker Punch. Faster Priority is only a method for revenge killing (checking) a M-Mawile that is already pretty beat down...
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That's exactly the kind of thinking people need to highlight here--a smart player with Mawile will almost always have the advantage in battle. Mawile's brokenness isn't that it can't be checked or revenge killed; it's that it can so easily turn the tables in one turn of setup. Even if you do have one of the few genuine answers to Mawile, all it takes is enough SR damage to overpower that answer. So over the logical course of a battle, the odds are so heavily tilted in the team with Mawile's favor.
To feed off ;lmlm who fed off me. I guess I have one other thought I’d like to voice about M-Mawile’s seat in the metagame. This is sort of based on an outside look on the entire metagame as a whole. It’s like back reasoning on why M-Mawile shouldn’t have been a broken Pokemon but sort of ended up being one because of other metagame factors/forces.
See if you were designing M-Mawile as GF you could very easily look at it and say: This thing is clearly not broken. Regardless of how much raw and boosted power it has, it only takes a short glance at the type chart to see Fire resist both STABs and comes back SE. And as you can see going back through this thread, being Fire type is basically the qualifying reason for being one of M-Mawile's better checks.
However the vast majority of Fire types have been spending the last 7 years quietly cursing 4th gen. You need to have a Rock resist secondary typing (Heatran) or have incredibly huge utility (Talonflame) or power (Charizad Y) and along with one of those have almost no drawbacks besides Stealth Rocks to be a reasonable pick as an OU Fire type.
This is why we see the phenomena on this thread of people bringing up tons of Pokemon that would actually make good M-Mawile checks (Arcanine, Volcarona, etc.) but that just aren’t good in the metagame as a whole so they must be disregarded. In other words if you just look at the game as a whole there’s a natural balancing feature to M-Mawile that should keep it from breaking. But that feature (fire typing) has more or less been thrown off balance by non-Mawile forces and so that natural balancing point of the game isn’t around to keep Mawile as balanced as it otherwise should have been.
I don’t know that what I just said actually means anything cause it’s kind of vague and an alternative way at looking at things… but it’s an interesting thought I had. The main balancing feature/mechanic that’s supposed to be present isn’t and so that could be another argument for a sort of overall metagame take on why there’s a break.
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The point of a suspect ladder without the suspected pokémon is to allow us to get a feel for a metagame without it. If you want to experience a metagame including Mawilite, the regular OU ladder is the place for you. Forcing everyone to use one on their team is absurd. This drastically changes the meta to a very non-realistic state. Nobody would have to prepare for any other mega among other issues.
As for the gimmick teams, yes they are annoying but quite beatable. I assume you're referencing the Geomancy Passing Smeargle teams (with Azelf/Whimsicott, etc.), as they are the only gimmicks I have seen on the ladder. Taunt is your friend, it shuts down the most necessary component of these teams, which is the Smeargle.
I am primarily an Ubers player nowadays and I don't play OU much anymore as consequence, but I thought I would share something I thought was interesting:
From what I have seen from the pro-ban side, these are the basis that lead to the suspect test and possible ban of Mawilite:
Although Salamence did this in a more extreme and noticable manner, it is easy to see where the two are comparable and why higher level players want Mawilite gone. Although the metagame became significantly more boring to me after mence's ban, these reasons still made think in favor of its ban at the time. Mega Mawile is very similar only it has to rely on Sucker Punch> Speed and brute power > insane coverage (although mence was very strong itself at the time). I don't have the time or will to ladder for OU reqs unfortunately, but I thought I would throw this out there. The basis of banning Mawilite is not as farfetched as some of you make it out to be.
From what I have seen from the pro-ban side, these are the basis that lead to the suspect test and possible ban of Mawilite:
- Mega Mawile is stupid hard to switch into in general.
- Mega Mawile can wear down its own checks by itself because of how hard it hits.
- Once these checks are worn down by its own hand, Mega Mawile can potentially flatten / maim teams to the point of no return after a single Swords Dance; which it can set up on many other Pokemon in the tier.
- Mega Mawile's counters are beaten by other sets it can run and can allow other Pokemon these counters and checks blanket to run through their opposition. Charizard Y -> Rock Slide / Heatran -> Focus Punch etc.
- Mega Mawile has a dangerous way of swaying games in its user's favor in general; no matter the match-up.
- Salamence was stupid hard to switch into in general.
- Salamence could wear down its own checks by itself due to its power and coverage.
- Once these checks were worn down by its own hand, Salamence could flatten / maim teams to the point of no return after a single Dragon Dance; which it could set up on many other Pokemon in the tier.
- Salamence's checks were easily beaten by other sets and can allow other Pokemon blanketed by these checks to run through their opposition. Bronzong -> Specs Fire Blast / Starmie -> Choice Scarf
- Salamence had a dangerous way of swaying games in its user's favor in general; no matter the match-up.
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Hey guys, this is my first post ever on Smogon! I actually want to open with a question, then go into what I think about Mega-Mawile. First, my question pertains to how you guys balance out your metagame: when ORAS come out, if the new megas introduced there were to become extremely good checks/counters to any of your previously banned megas,(or any banned pokes for that matter) or Mega-Mawile if it gets banned, what's your policy on unbanning them when they are no longer broken? Just curious about how you guys do things, and what your thoughts would be on that, since we're gonna get a new set of megas come November.
But anyway, my thoughts on Mega-Mawile are that it is a very relevant threat that can't be ignored: It's typing, access to intimidate from it's base form, and strong priority make playing around it difficult to begin with, before you even consider it's monster attack stat, and amazing coverage options. I'm not going to even try to list any specific pokemon I'd recommend to beat it, but I will share what I've come to rely on against the ones I run into. The best way I've found to deal with the ones you see in the XY battle spot is with burns/substitute. The biggest risk, or course, is allowing it to set up it's own substitute, but if you can burn it first, then there isn't much it can do to you, even from behind a sub, especially if you run subs and WoW on the same poke. A burned Mega-Mawile behind it's sub still isn't much of a threat to your poke who is also behind a sub. Anyway, that's just how I've come to deal with Mawile; I know it's not perfect, since there's a lot of risk involved bringing in your WoW/sub user, as it can get nailed by a hard attack on the switch, or give Mawile a chance to sub up or SD for free, but that's just the way I typically handle it.
With that said, I'll admit that most of my experience with competitive battles comes from the actual carts of the games, so I did also want to try out some battles in showdown before I posted, and some surprising things happened. Even though in my experience from XY, Mega-Mawile is crazy good, I wanted to share this with you guys to show what happened when I tried to use one on showdown:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-151292834
Just in my personal experience, Mega-Mawile hasn't clinched me many victories on it's own on showdown, even against teams like this who didn't seem particularly prepared for it. I mean, getting a double KO against a burned 'Mence? Mind you, I did predict wrong, thinking I'd be getting a free switch on a dragon claw, but still... that's some pretty interesting data that I just thought you guys might be interesting in. I also did end up facing my share of opposing Mega-Mawiles, but I wasn't sure how relevant a Mawile vs. Mawile battle would be, so I didn't save any of those replays.
To conclude my thoughts on the matter: my experience from XY battles has been that Mawile is a game-defining pokemon that will wreck unprepared teams with it's enormous power and coverage, but oddly enough, I didn't feel it was quite as influential in showdown, albeit just for the 10 or so battles I tried. Make of that what you will, just an outsider's two cents. Thanks for listening.
But anyway, my thoughts on Mega-Mawile are that it is a very relevant threat that can't be ignored: It's typing, access to intimidate from it's base form, and strong priority make playing around it difficult to begin with, before you even consider it's monster attack stat, and amazing coverage options. I'm not going to even try to list any specific pokemon I'd recommend to beat it, but I will share what I've come to rely on against the ones I run into. The best way I've found to deal with the ones you see in the XY battle spot is with burns/substitute. The biggest risk, or course, is allowing it to set up it's own substitute, but if you can burn it first, then there isn't much it can do to you, even from behind a sub, especially if you run subs and WoW on the same poke. A burned Mega-Mawile behind it's sub still isn't much of a threat to your poke who is also behind a sub. Anyway, that's just how I've come to deal with Mawile; I know it's not perfect, since there's a lot of risk involved bringing in your WoW/sub user, as it can get nailed by a hard attack on the switch, or give Mawile a chance to sub up or SD for free, but that's just the way I typically handle it.
With that said, I'll admit that most of my experience with competitive battles comes from the actual carts of the games, so I did also want to try out some battles in showdown before I posted, and some surprising things happened. Even though in my experience from XY, Mega-Mawile is crazy good, I wanted to share this with you guys to show what happened when I tried to use one on showdown:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-151292834
Just in my personal experience, Mega-Mawile hasn't clinched me many victories on it's own on showdown, even against teams like this who didn't seem particularly prepared for it. I mean, getting a double KO against a burned 'Mence? Mind you, I did predict wrong, thinking I'd be getting a free switch on a dragon claw, but still... that's some pretty interesting data that I just thought you guys might be interesting in. I also did end up facing my share of opposing Mega-Mawiles, but I wasn't sure how relevant a Mawile vs. Mawile battle would be, so I didn't save any of those replays.
To conclude my thoughts on the matter: my experience from XY battles has been that Mawile is a game-defining pokemon that will wreck unprepared teams with it's enormous power and coverage, but oddly enough, I didn't feel it was quite as influential in showdown, albeit just for the 10 or so battles I tried. Make of that what you will, just an outsider's two cents. Thanks for listening.
No offense but that replay isn't very useful for this thread. Mawile getting haxed twice in a row by an unskilled opponent using a bad team doesn't prove anything for or against Mawile's potential brokenness. All it really does is re-confirm that this game's mechanics are shit tier.
"Mawile will be so fun to use in the lower tiers."
Can someone explain why regular and mega mons aren't separated? For example, they can only allow Pinsirite in OU while putting regular Pinsir in NU
Regarding usage stats, a Mega's usage stat will only be accounted if the mon is used together with its mega stone. So for example Charizard + Charizardite will be OU, whereas Charizard + any other item would have really low usage and thus NU.
Now onto my opinions. Mawile is insane, nothing switches into its Play Rough. 339 attack with Huge Power? Essentially a Swords Dance upon entry. I do get that Mawile has good checks since its pretty darn slow, but nothing safely switches in (Fire Fang for Skarm, Focus Punch for Heatran, etc.) Also Sucker Punch, even though unSTAB, still hits so hard. Not to mention the steel nerf too. Intimidate also allow Mawile ample amounts of set up opportunities, and its fantastic typing allows it to set up on stuff like Lati@s as well
For that, I think it deserves the ban
Can someone explain why regular and mega mons aren't separated? For example, they can only allow Pinsirite in OU while putting regular Pinsir in NU
Regarding usage stats, a Mega's usage stat will only be accounted if the mon is used together with its mega stone. So for example Charizard + Charizardite will be OU, whereas Charizard + any other item would have really low usage and thus NU.
Now onto my opinions. Mawile is insane, nothing switches into its Play Rough. 339 attack with Huge Power? Essentially a Swords Dance upon entry. I do get that Mawile has good checks since its pretty darn slow, but nothing safely switches in (Fire Fang for Skarm, Focus Punch for Heatran, etc.) Also Sucker Punch, even though unSTAB, still hits so hard. Not to mention the steel nerf too. Intimidate also allow Mawile ample amounts of set up opportunities, and its fantastic typing allows it to set up on stuff like Lati@s as well
For that, I think it deserves the ban
i'm still not sure how i feel about mawile. Against stall teams it pretty much steam rolls everything, but i find that when its up against a offence team, its alot less useful. just because theres so many common checks (specs keldeo being a good example) that means that it will probably only get one-two kills against offence if you play well. On paper it looks broken because nothing can switch into it, but in theory it just doesnt do as much depending on the matchup
Well, as a Mega Mawile user, and a battler who has faced mawile many a times in battle, I can safely say that mega mawile is not unhealthy for the metagame and must not be banned from the OU metagame.
First of all, Mega Mawile is not as bulky as people think. Non-mega evolved mawile has pathetic stats in defenses, and struggles to switch in to attacks. Also, even though mega mawile has defenses of 115/95, it is counteracted by it's shitty HP stat of 50, and many other sweeper mega evolutions can stomach attacks better. Also, Mawile has weaknesses to the hugely common fire and ground type attacks, and most teams carry a powerful pokemon with a move of either type. Therefore, it is not so difficult to KO Mawile as some people say. Mawile hates facing ground types and fire types, and even when I battle vs a mega mawile i simply send out a landorus-t, garchomp, or any charizard and smash it with their stabs.
Secondly, Mawile is too slow to be an effective sweeper. It's base speed stat is 50, and for it to counteract it it requires team support like paralysis of the opponent mons or sticky web. People might say that it has sucker punch to make up for the low speed, but they do not realize that despite huge power, mawile is forced to use a non-stab priority move which isn't boosted by an item, and can be exploited by using status moves (switch in rotom-w on an expected sucker punch and burn it), and it's sucker punch without a SD boost is often lacking in power to KO it's biggest checks, such as lando-t, garchomp, etc. This is perhaps Mawile's biggest flaw, and the reason why it is not the perfect sweeper.
Thirdly, Mawile's attack stat is monstrous, but not impossible to wall. Mawile often suffers from 4MSS, and thus can be walled. Most Mawile users run play rough, sucker punch and a setup move as the standard 3 moves, leaving the last slot open. If mawile lacks focus funch, it is completely walled by heatran, who can just block its attacks and spam lava plume. If it lacks fire fang, it is completely walled by skarmory, who can block it's attacks, heal itself with roost, and whirlwind away any attempt mawile makes to setup. If it lacks iron head, most mega venusaur variants can simply wall it, put it to sleep, break it's substitutes with HP fire, heal itself with synthesis, seed mawile, and take pitiful damage from the supposedly monstrous fairy. Mawile has no real way to heal it's HP other than rest, which hardly anyone uses, and the rest set is even easier to counter than most, so Mega Mawile can be easily worn down with repeated damage, entry hazards, etc. Also, mega mawile is prone to burns, as a burn can cut it's attack in half and bring it down to earth, and paralysis can make it even easier to KO mawile. Rotom-W is especially effective at burning it as it can survive play rough on the switch, outspeed it and burn it with WoW, crippling Mawile.
The fourth reason why Mawile is not unhealthy for the metagame is that it can be checked, countered, and crippled by many pokemons commonly used in the OU metagame. It can easily be revenge killed by garchomp, landorus(incarnate and therian, therian's better), charizard forms, keldeo, and others, and it can also be walled/countered by pokemons such as gliscor, heatran, mega venusaur, skarmory, etc, and these aren't even obscurely used mons, some of these guys have topped usage in the recent past.
Mega Mawile is not broken guys, let's be reasonable and see the reality. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Mawile depart to ubers, but I firmly believe it is neither invincible nor unhealthy for the standard metagame.
First of all, Mega Mawile is not as bulky as people think. Non-mega evolved mawile has pathetic stats in defenses, and struggles to switch in to attacks. Also, even though mega mawile has defenses of 115/95, it is counteracted by it's shitty HP stat of 50, and many other sweeper mega evolutions can stomach attacks better. Also, Mawile has weaknesses to the hugely common fire and ground type attacks, and most teams carry a powerful pokemon with a move of either type. Therefore, it is not so difficult to KO Mawile as some people say. Mawile hates facing ground types and fire types, and even when I battle vs a mega mawile i simply send out a landorus-t, garchomp, or any charizard and smash it with their stabs.
Secondly, Mawile is too slow to be an effective sweeper. It's base speed stat is 50, and for it to counteract it it requires team support like paralysis of the opponent mons or sticky web. People might say that it has sucker punch to make up for the low speed, but they do not realize that despite huge power, mawile is forced to use a non-stab priority move which isn't boosted by an item, and can be exploited by using status moves (switch in rotom-w on an expected sucker punch and burn it), and it's sucker punch without a SD boost is often lacking in power to KO it's biggest checks, such as lando-t, garchomp, etc. This is perhaps Mawile's biggest flaw, and the reason why it is not the perfect sweeper.
Thirdly, Mawile's attack stat is monstrous, but not impossible to wall. Mawile often suffers from 4MSS, and thus can be walled. Most Mawile users run play rough, sucker punch and a setup move as the standard 3 moves, leaving the last slot open. If mawile lacks focus funch, it is completely walled by heatran, who can just block its attacks and spam lava plume. If it lacks fire fang, it is completely walled by skarmory, who can block it's attacks, heal itself with roost, and whirlwind away any attempt mawile makes to setup. If it lacks iron head, most mega venusaur variants can simply wall it, put it to sleep, break it's substitutes with HP fire, heal itself with synthesis, seed mawile, and take pitiful damage from the supposedly monstrous fairy. Mawile has no real way to heal it's HP other than rest, which hardly anyone uses, and the rest set is even easier to counter than most, so Mega Mawile can be easily worn down with repeated damage, entry hazards, etc. Also, mega mawile is prone to burns, as a burn can cut it's attack in half and bring it down to earth, and paralysis can make it even easier to KO mawile. Rotom-W is especially effective at burning it as it can survive play rough on the switch, outspeed it and burn it with WoW, crippling Mawile.
The fourth reason why Mawile is not unhealthy for the metagame is that it can be checked, countered, and crippled by many pokemons commonly used in the OU metagame. It can easily be revenge killed by garchomp, landorus(incarnate and therian, therian's better), charizard forms, keldeo, and others, and it can also be walled/countered by pokemons such as gliscor, heatran, mega venusaur, skarmory, etc, and these aren't even obscurely used mons, some of these guys have topped usage in the recent past.
Mega Mawile is not broken guys, let's be reasonable and see the reality. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Mawile depart to ubers, but I firmly believe it is neither invincible nor unhealthy for the standard metagame.
1) Mega Mawile's base defense is 125, not 115. Plus it has intimidate to help bolster it's non-mega evolved bulk. Garchomp doesn't wanna switch in on Play Rough, nor can it really live a +2 Sucker Punch
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Charizard Y is a good answer if using the defensive set, Char X not so much since it doesn't want to switch into Play Rough. Lando-T is an alright answer if it's fully defensive, but even then it's 3HKO'd by unboosted Play Rough and has no recovery.
Also, you're assuming the Mawile player isn't very intelligent and would stay in on those pokemon.
2) That "non-stab priority move which isn't boosted by an item" is stronger than Ekiller Arceus's Extremespeed.
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
3) Focus Punch Mawile also beats Skarmory.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 177-209 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory can only whirlwind it out after, and it can't roost in front of Mega Mawile as then Focus Punch destroys it. If it tries to Counter, then the damage will just hit the Substitute and Mawile still beats Skarmory. Brave Bird doesn't do much damage at all either.
Mega Venusaur is an answer to sets lacking Iron Head, true...but again, Mawile knows if it lacks Iron Head or not, so why would it stay in?
Rotom-W takes 64-75% from Play Rough on the Switch and has no reliable recovery other than one single use of Rest, so it's not hard to wear it down to the point Mawile just breaks through. And if it's SubPunch, good luck burning it. After the hit on Rotom, Mawile just switches out, ready to come in again later and then your Rotom can't switch in.
4) Revenging isn't an argument, pretty much every pokemon in the game can be revenge killed. Doesn't mean the opponent is bad and will let that happen to their win condition. And it's not countered by very much. Pretty much everything that truly does counter it is weak to Stealth Rock, so their value as counters go way down.
I know it's late into the discussion and my post probably won't affect the results, nor even get much notice, but I really want to bring up one point, which I believe could be useful for further suspect tests. So far, most pro-ban arguments use figures and statistics to justify the brokenness of Mega Mawile. This is in contrast to the Aegislash test which had a variety of arguments, from 50/50 to metagame health. Before I go into the details, I want to assert that, while I do take a stand in this suspect test, it is purely due to the issue that I will be presenting below, and not out of personal bias or any other reasons.
I believe that most suspect tests, belong to two main camps: uncompetitive and broken. For the former, usage, viability and effect on metagame etc. is irrelevant, as their mere existence, no matter how low, is unwanted. However, I am confident that Mega Mawile do not belong under this camp so I will not talk about it. Instead, I will focus my discussion on the latter, which I do believe is people's main issue with Mega Mawile: that it's overpowered, imbalanced... and overall just plain broken.
But what constituents brokenness? Damage? Bulk? Speed? I think we can agree that analysing individual factors alone is pointless. As the saying goes, a broken pokemon is represented by "a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts". Therefore, I believe a more holistic approach need to be taken. This is where opinions start to differ.
Personally, I think that players have no problem judging the "parts", but as normal humans, it is very hard for us to accurately judge the "whole". If it were simple, then there would be no need for suspect tests. Smogon could come up with a formula stating that any pokemon that can do x amount of damage to most pokemon in the metagame, has y amount of bulk, can switch in z times, has α counters, β checks, and γ eyes is broken (fun fact: ignoring fusion pokemon / pokemon with multiple faces, only 1 pokemon has more than 2 eyes, unless you count the Regis as having "eyes"). Therefore, the best way to judge would be to set up an environment which we can observe the effectiveness of the pokemon as a whole. My assumption (and by extension, definition of brokenness) here is that, if a pokemon were truly broken. It shall have an impact on the metagame, be it over-centralization, match-up coinflips, or others. Thus, I would like to see more posts that elaborate on how the brokenness of Mega Mawile is presented in the metagame (the "whole"), must like how people argued Aegislash should be banned, instead of calculations and situations that Mega Mawile excel in, or fail in, for those arguing anti-ban (the "parts").
I believe that most suspect tests, belong to two main camps: uncompetitive and broken. For the former, usage, viability and effect on metagame etc. is irrelevant, as their mere existence, no matter how low, is unwanted. However, I am confident that Mega Mawile do not belong under this camp so I will not talk about it. Instead, I will focus my discussion on the latter, which I do believe is people's main issue with Mega Mawile: that it's overpowered, imbalanced... and overall just plain broken.
But what constituents brokenness? Damage? Bulk? Speed? I think we can agree that analysing individual factors alone is pointless. As the saying goes, a broken pokemon is represented by "a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts". Therefore, I believe a more holistic approach need to be taken. This is where opinions start to differ.
Personally, I think that players have no problem judging the "parts", but as normal humans, it is very hard for us to accurately judge the "whole". If it were simple, then there would be no need for suspect tests. Smogon could come up with a formula stating that any pokemon that can do x amount of damage to most pokemon in the metagame, has y amount of bulk, can switch in z times, has α counters, β checks, and γ eyes is broken (fun fact: ignoring fusion pokemon / pokemon with multiple faces, only 1 pokemon has more than 2 eyes, unless you count the Regis as having "eyes"). Therefore, the best way to judge would be to set up an environment which we can observe the effectiveness of the pokemon as a whole. My assumption (and by extension, definition of brokenness) here is that, if a pokemon were truly broken. It shall have an impact on the metagame, be it over-centralization, match-up coinflips, or others. Thus, I would like to see more posts that elaborate on how the brokenness of Mega Mawile is presented in the metagame (the "whole"), must like how people argued Aegislash should be banned, instead of calculations and situations that Mega Mawile excel in, or fail in, for those arguing anti-ban (the "parts").
Yeah, of course I realize that this is a shallow example, I just wanted to point out that, as pokemon is, at it's core, a game consisting of equal parts strategy and luck, that even overpowered pokemon can be defeated by weaker ones that it should usually beat. I didn't really intend for it to be much of a point in favor of pro-ban or anti-ban, just an interesting thing to consider about the game as a whole, which I feel should at least be one of the factors involved in any discussion about how good/bad any single pokemon is.
I think the interesting thing about M-Mawile is that, having such shaky checks thanks to most of them being horribly crippled to stealth rock or still potentially losing depending on what she does on the switch, the metagame is incapable of adapting to her to begin with. If she were banned, the only change you're going to see in the meta is Arcanine vanishing back into obscurity, possibly a minor drop in usage of already seldom-used pokes like Volcarona. Physically defensive Lando-T is probably the closest you'll get to a "safe" switch-in regardless of Stealth Rock, and it's still going to eat a 3HKO from -1 Play Rough; it straight-up loses if Mawile's carrying Ice Punch and it switches in on that or Substitute. You can go down the list of matchups and see rather clearly that 1v1 Mawile really only has the potential to lose to faster, hard-hitting threats that can take a Sucker Punch. If she puts the opponent in situations where they have to switch, or if they're up against a +2/subbed Mawile, nothing realistically run in the meta has a dominating matchup over her.
To put it shortly, you don't see Mawile affecting the meta because the meta can't do anything about her without running options that require a high level of support to function, and it isn't worth running those high-liability 'mons exclusively for one threat.
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While it's true that luck is and always will be part of the game, I disagree that it is equal parts strategy and luck. I won't through out some random number ratio, but strategy is definitely a greater part of the game than luck. If it weren't, we wouldn't have competitive Pokemon to begin with. The fact that an overpowered Pokemon can be taken out by weaker ones if it's haxed enough is not and should not ever be a factor to consider when a Pokemon is suspected for two reasons. One, any Pokemon can be taken out if it's haxed enough, even Xerneas and Kyogre. Two, having to rely on the RNG to wipe out strong Pokemon is not an actual strategy. If it were, we'd still allow Swagger and OHKO moves in Smogon.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I was only bringing up a small point anyway, so it's not like I was really trying to make a strong argument that random chance was a good way to counter anything, that's just silly; I was just reminding people that it existed. I'm still new here, so most of what I know of the metagame is from my experience on XY, so I'll just take this as an idea of what you guys really look at when it comes to stuff like this. Thanks.
I have not read much of this thread to get a full sense of people's pro-ban and anti-ban arguments, but there is one thing that I was wondering. If mawilite is ban worthy, where does this place other pokemon such mega medicham and the charizards and any other prominent OU pokemon?
This suspect test bears the same problems as the mega gengar suspect test in my opinion. People get so damn set on how one pokemon impacts the metagame while comepletely disregarding the ways in which other pokemon substantially effect the metagame in a similar way. If the mawilite ban goes through, then does this mean that megacham, char Y/X, mega pinsir,, etc. could also be banned in a chain reaction?
Here's an example: Mega pinsir has already had one of it's biggest counters (aegislash) banned and now mawile, which is also one of it's checks, could be banned as well. When this sort of thing happens, what stops pinsir from being dragged to ubers as well?
My fear is that if we keep firing off suspect tests like this without looking at how the metagame is effected by bans, there could be a nasty NASTY chain reaction in a huge amount of megas and maybe even non-mega OU threats get banned in a streak.
Also, for those that believe that banning all of these megas reveals what is truly broken in OU, on the other hand, this potential banning spree could very well make certain pokemon broken that were not considered broken and MAKE them broken. I can already see how such a thing would happen with pokemon such as dragonite if other pokemon such as mawile and charizard X are banned. When its checks and possible counters are banned, then what stops dragonite from ALSO being dragged to ubers as collateral damage to this streak of bans?
The bottom line is this: I see this banning spree as a toxic way of destroying and breaking down what was once a relatively balanced metagame and boiling it down until all that is left is people that are left unsatisfied and yearning for when so many different pokemon were still legal in OU.
OU was by far my favourite metagame to battle in, but that's no longer the case.
For now, I will NOT offer my opinions mawilite's potential "brokenness" as long as the voters this streak of suspect tests remain so short-sighted.
This suspect test bears the same problems as the mega gengar suspect test in my opinion. People get so damn set on how one pokemon impacts the metagame while comepletely disregarding the ways in which other pokemon substantially effect the metagame in a similar way. If the mawilite ban goes through, then does this mean that megacham, char Y/X, mega pinsir,, etc. could also be banned in a chain reaction?
Here's an example: Mega pinsir has already had one of it's biggest counters (aegislash) banned and now mawile, which is also one of it's checks, could be banned as well. When this sort of thing happens, what stops pinsir from being dragged to ubers as well?
My fear is that if we keep firing off suspect tests like this without looking at how the metagame is effected by bans, there could be a nasty NASTY chain reaction in a huge amount of megas and maybe even non-mega OU threats get banned in a streak.
Also, for those that believe that banning all of these megas reveals what is truly broken in OU, on the other hand, this potential banning spree could very well make certain pokemon broken that were not considered broken and MAKE them broken. I can already see how such a thing would happen with pokemon such as dragonite if other pokemon such as mawile and charizard X are banned. When its checks and possible counters are banned, then what stops dragonite from ALSO being dragged to ubers as collateral damage to this streak of bans?
The bottom line is this: I see this banning spree as a toxic way of destroying and breaking down what was once a relatively balanced metagame and boiling it down until all that is left is people that are left unsatisfied and yearning for when so many different pokemon were still legal in OU.
OU was by far my favourite metagame to battle in, but that's no longer the case.
For now, I will NOT offer my opinions mawilite's potential "brokenness" as long as the voters this streak of suspect tests remain so short-sighted.
Smogon will keep banning Pokemon until te metagame is balanced (meaning stall, offense, and balance are equally viable and no one playstyle dominates) and no pokemon is broken, overcentralizing, or uncompetitive.
In which case, we should be looking forward to several, and I mean several of these same Suspect tests. The OU Metagame won't be balanced for a while.
Regardless, despite my being against the banning of Mawilite, I do see the reason behind it, I don't agree with it, but, I understand why some may perceive it as "broken". In the end, it takes a lot more skill than many people here are willing to admit. They bring up the "well it has intimidate" argument, and that's semi-understandable. However, that's not always a factor to be played in a battle. Keldeo does, and will likely continue to do, these things on a regular basis. Not much wants to switch into a Keldeo, Specs or no, does that make it broken? Not exactly. The 50/50 argument I have ran around too many times to count, and refuse to go any further than, that can be said about any Pokemon. What it all boils down to is, it hits too hard. Yes, Focus Punch Mawile stops Heatran, IF it's a Focus Punch set. Mawile can't cover ALL of it's counters and checks at once, it's not possible. Yet, when you read through this it's praised as if it's able to just mow down teams with little effort.
It isn't a "Click the win button" Pokemon, i.e: mKanga. As I stated, it requires more skill than people give it credit. In higher tier play, it's a problem because players are able to play around their opponent, but, how exactly is that mawile's problem? Stall does the same thing to its opponent, but, clearly we're not going to try and boot that, and with good reason, it's not foreseen as broken.
If we're being honest here, just say it hits too damn hard for the OU metagame. X 'mon doesn't want to switch into Play rough? Well, some times you have to hurt something to benefit from it. Just like, X 'mon most likely doesn't want to switch into Specs Hydro Pump/Secret Sword from Keldeo.
Regardless, I'll be voting Do not Ban. It's talked up far more than it should be, and made out like it's some sort of mindless Pokemon that requires you to click one button to succeed.
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As an experienced staff member, I'll handle this one, provided I don't hear from the peanut gallery.
Firstly, what you are referring to is the slippery slope argument, and its been around on smogon for a long time. its also been proven to be false. Last time I checked in DPP, we banned Salamence, we banned Latias, and Dragonite didn't magically become Uber. Point being, its not some massive chain reaction that only ends when we have Magikarp Splash wars, it ends when we remove the unhealthy pokemon of the metagame.
So, you enjoyed the previous metagame. Good on you. The vast majority of the playerbase hated dealing with Mega Gengar, Mega Kanga, Mega Lucario, and we made the majority call to remove these unhealthy, un-"fun" elements from the metagame. If you enjoy using pokemon we banned, there is nothing stopping you from making up your own tiers and playing with your mates.
On to your next point, if something is being checked by a broken mechanic, then it is still broken. Wanting to keep unhealthy things within the meta reminds me of a certain poster in BW that wanted Giratina back into OU to check Rain and Sun. Like really...it just doesn't work fellas.
Because Dragonite was OU for pretty much the entirety of BW and currently, didn't get many new toys in the generation shift to be broken. Don't worry mate, you can continue to fanboy Dragonite for a long while yet.
Yeah...I wouldn't really call others out when you are pretty much calling for us to return to the Mega Gengar metagame, which is pretty much iniversally regarded to be one of the most toxic / unhealthy metagames we have ever had. You know its bad when Ubers is/just finished running a Suspect Test of their own to judge Mega Gengar...
After being the only Pokemon who has been on OU for all 6 Generations, its Mega-form has a chance of being the first Pokemon banished from Ubers itself. Ladies and gentleman, the strongest Pokemon in the universe, Gengar! (fuck you Mega-KFC, Mega-Shadow Tag is what's hot)
And something on-topic to avoid the deletion of my post (yet again): If I had such high stats for my votes and fights to count I'll vote for ban, no matter how much I would hate that to happen and how much bitterness I would feel about my vote. I recognize that Mawile is just too diverse to counter with 1-2 Pokemon, no matter my bias towards it. You need to carry about 3 Pokémon to be [almost] completely safe from it, at the cost of losing out against, well, pretty much the rest of the meta I guess. It also has similar merits to be banned to those that lead DPPMence to be banished to
Oh, BTW I did post earlier how it wouldn't be so hard to counter if it didn't had Substitute and Focus Punch. I was so wrong. Mawile still has Ice and Thunder Fang (plus Metal Burst just for the lulz I guess) which are more of a gimmick, but still relevant.
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thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
The attack stat is effectively 259 if max EV, which is the reason it's so powerful. I have never used it, honestly. I never heard of the SubPunch set until about a month ago, but I love my other megas too much. The problem is nothing comes in. So if it gets a free switch in, it can wreck.
But what does it really wall where it can just come in? It's too slow for attackers, so it usually gets 1 KO. Honestly, I want my megas to sweep/wall tons of mons, not to just soften teams. I have made a Krow/Mawile team, with all dat priority. It wrecks offense and stall. But I don't think it's ban worthy.
But what does it really wall where it can just come in? It's too slow for attackers, so it usually gets 1 KO. Honestly, I want my megas to sweep/wall tons of mons, not to just soften teams. I have made a Krow/Mawile team, with all dat priority. It wrecks offense and stall. But I don't think it's ban worthy.
You are correct that Mega-Mawile cannot target all of its threats at once, but this is not always a requirement, as its team can accomodate what mons it cannot handle. Play Rough, Iron head, Sucker Punch and Swords Dance may be the standard set, or at least the set one would assume, but more advanced players can choose to forego certain moves if other teammembers can perform the same roles. STAB moves can be ditched for coverage against Mawile nemesises, or Substitute to enable a safe setup. Heck, with Mawile's ability, you wouldn't even need to run Swords Dance, since it can always soften up the walls of the opponent and then let another teammate reap the rewards.
I won't be participating in the voting as I simply have no time (or skill :V) to achieve reqs, but from lurking this thread, I get annoyed by the anti-ban posters who take this mon too lightly (not directed at MuhFugginMoose btw). Base 105 Atk with Huge power is no joke, and unlike Kyurem-B, it has a lot more physical moves to exploit, including a strong (but less reliable) priority move. So even though we should still put our knowledge and skills to the test to determine if Mega-Mawile is unhealthy for the meta or not, it is most certainly an incredibly destructive force to be reckoned with, and something that most urgently required a suspect test. Whether or not it actually gets banned is up to you.
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