np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

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Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
It isn't.
A 50/50 is not a prediction, its exactly what it sounds like; a coin flip.
Lets take a mega mawile that got to +2 by setting up on your AV azumarill (ez pz) and you send in a Swords dance/rocks/outrage/eq (common lead set) to try and revenge it (rocks r up, sash is broken)

Now what do you do? What is the correct play? If you EQ, mega mawile could just predict that and sucker punch, and after rocks a +2 sucker punch cleanly OHKO's 4/0 garchomp. If you use SD, Mega Mawile could also go for Play Rough expecting that! Try to switching into something else? We'll see how well it takes a +2 Play Rough. There is literally no right play.
I could predict Mega Mawile to expect Eq, and therefore SD to avoid the sucker.
The opponent could predict me to predict him and go for play rough instead.
I could also then predict my opponent to predict me to predict him and go straight for the sucker.
Meanwhile, my opponent could still pre- you get the point.
Here we go again with the awful 50/50 "argument".

First of all, you're already completely disregarding the first turn where mmaw gets a free +2 and you switch out to chomp for whatever reason. That's already twisting your argument in your favour. What happens if mmaw predicts your switch to chomp and just play roughs right out of the gate? This whole situation goes back to risk vs reward, a core part of pokemon.

Let's analyse this further and go back to when your AV azu was out against their mmawile. You don't know its set except that it has play rough, and it's already mega'd so azu is at +0. Both pokemon have taken stealth rock damage once but otherwise are at (close to) full health.

There are several ways this could go:
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses SD, mawile is now at ~50%. Lets say they speed tie.
    • Azumarill uses aqua jet, doing 25% and mawile OHKOs azumarill with play rough.
    • Azumarill uses waterfall and wins the speed tie, possibly KOing mawile.
    • Azumarill uses waterfall and loses the speed tie, and mawile OHKOs azumarill with play rough.
      • You send out chomp. Now you're in the situation you described, except mawile is at 50% instead, and you're down azumarill.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You win the speed tie. Mawile is now at 50%, azumarill was OHKOd.
    • You send out chomp and revenge it with EQ.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You win the speed tie. Mawile is now at 50%, azumarill has a sliver of HP left. (68% to OHKO after SR)
    • You aqua jet, mawile sucker punches. You win the speed tie, mawile is now at 25% and azumarill takes no damage.
      • You aqua jet again, mawile sucker punches. You win the speed tie, mawile is KOd.
      • You aqua jet again, mawile sucker punches. You lose the speed tie, azumarill is KOd.
    • You aqua jet, mawile sucker punches. You lose the speed tie and azumarill is KOd.
    • You aqua jet, mawile uses play rough. Mawile is now at 25% and azumarill is KOd.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You lose the speed tie. Mawile is unscathed and azumarill was OHKOd.
    • You send out chomp and revenge it with EQ.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You lose the speed tie. Mawile is now at 50% and azumarill has a sliver of HP left.
    • See the above block, I don't need to copy it here.
  • You switch azumarill out to garchomp, mawile uses SD. Now you're in the situation you described.
    • Garchomp uses SD, mawile sucker punches. Nothing really happens.
    • Garchomp uses SD, mawile uses play rough. Garchomp is KOd.
    • Garchomp uses EQ, mawile sucker punches. Garchomp is KOd and mawile takes a little bit of rough skin damage.
    • Garchomp uses EQ, mawile uses play rough. Mawile is KOd.
    • Garchomp uses EQ, mawile uses play rough. Mawile survives with a sliver of health and KOs garchomp. (68% to OHKO after SR)
      • You send azumarill back out.
        • Azumarill uses aqua jet, mawile uses sucker punch, you win the speed tie, mawile is KOd.
        • Azumarill uses aqua jet, mawile uses sucker punch, azumarill takes 50% and mawile is KOd.
  • You switch azumarill out to garchomp, mawile uses play rough. Garchomp is KO'd and mawile takes a little bit of rough skin damage. You're now back at square one with a fainted garchomp.
By analysing the game like this you can see that switching out azumarill actually puts you in potentially a worse situation than just keeping azu in. How many scenarios let you come out on top? Which ones just put you back at square one, worse off than where you were before? Which is more important to dealing with the rest of their team, keeping azumarill alive or keeping garchomp alive?

Not only that but paying attention to how your opponent plays could also help give you more clues as to which path is the right one to take. Are they aggressive with mawile and tend to just go right for the attacking moves? Do they double switch with it to gain information about how you play? Do they spam sucker punch? Stuff like that.

A true 50/50 is when you get into a situation where there are very few ways for it to go and exactly half of them result in you losing and the others result in you winning. Consider this:

Both players on their last pokemon, a bisharp vs a talonflame, both on pretty low health. Bisharp will be KOd with two brave birds or one flare blitz, and talonflame will be KO'd by either a sucker punch or a knock off.
1) Talonflame uses brave bird, bisharp uses sucker punch (which fails). Talonflame uses brave bird again and wins.
2) Talonflame uses flare blitz, bisharp uses sucker punch. Bisharp wins.
3) Talonflame uses brave bird, bisharp uses knock off. Bisharp wins.
4) Talonflame uses flare blitz, bisharp uses knock off. Talonflame wins.

THAT is a 50/50.

P.S. don't forget play rough only has 90% accuracy, so take that into account!
 
Last edited:

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
Here we go again with the awful 50/50 "argument".

First of all, you're already completely disregarding the first turn where mmaw gets a free +2 and you switch out to chomp for whatever reason. That's already twisting your argument in your favour. What happens if mmaw predicts your switch to chomp and just play roughs right out of the gate? This whole situation goes back to risk vs reward, a core part of pokemon.

Let's analyse this further and go back to when your AV azu was out against their mmawile. You don't know its set except that it has play rough, and it's already mega'd so azu is at +0. Both pokemon have taken stealth rock damage once but otherwise are at (close to) full health.

There are several ways this could go:
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses SD, mawile is now at ~50%. Lets say they speed tie.
    • Azumarill uses aqua jet, doing 25% and mawile OHKOs azumarill with play rough.
    • Azumarill uses waterfall and wins the speed tie, possibly KOing mawile.
    • Azumarill uses waterfall and loses the speed tie, and mawile OHKOs azumarill with play rough.
      • You send out chomp. Now you're in the situation you described, except mawile is at 50% instead, and you're down azumarill.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You win the speed tie. Mawile is now at 50%, azumarill was OHKOd.
    • You send out chomp and revenge it with EQ.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You win the speed tie. Mawile is now at 50%, azumarill has a sliver of HP left. (68% to OHKO after SR)
    • You aqua jet, mawile sucker punches. You win the speed tie, mawile is now at 25% and azumarill takes no damage.
      • You aqua jet again, mawile sucker punches. You win the speed tie, mawile is KOd.
      • You aqua jet again, mawile sucker punches. You lose the speed tie, azumarill is KOd.
    • You aqua jet, mawile sucker punches. You lose the speed tie and azumarill is KOd.
    • You aqua jet, mawile uses play rough. Mawile is now at 25% and azumarill is KOd.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You lose the speed tie. Mawile is unscathed and azumarill was OHKOd.
    • You send out chomp and revenge it with EQ.
  • You stay in with azumarill and use waterfall, mawile uses play rough. You lose the speed tie. Mawile is now at 50% and azumarill has a sliver of HP left.
    • See the above block, I don't need to copy it here.
  • You switch azumarill out to garchomp, mawile uses SD. Now you're in the situation you described.
    • Garchomp uses SD, mawile sucker punches. Nothing really happens.
    • Garchomp uses SD, mawile uses play rough. Garchomp is KOd.
    • Garchomp uses EQ, mawile sucker punches. Garchomp is KOd and mawile takes a little bit of rough skin damage.
    • Garchomp uses EQ, mawile uses play rough. Mawile is KOd.
    • Garchomp uses EQ, mawile uses play rough. Mawile survives with a sliver of health and KOs garchomp. (68% to OHKO after SR)
      • You send azumarill back out.
        • Azumarill uses aqua jet, mawile uses sucker punch, you win the speed tie, mawile is KOd.
        • Azumarill uses aqua jet, mawile uses sucker punch, azumarill takes 50% and mawile is KOd.
  • You switch azumarill out to garchomp, mawile uses play rough. Garchomp is KO'd and mawile takes a little bit of rough skin damage. You're now back at square one with a fainted garchomp.
By analysing the game like this you can see that switching out azumarill actually puts you in potentially a worse situation than just keeping azu in. How many scenarios let you come out on top? Which ones just put you back at square one, worse off than where you were before? Which is more important to dealing with the rest of their team, keeping azumarill alive or keeping garchomp alive?

Not only that but paying attention to how your opponent plays could also help give you more clues as to which path is the right one to take. Are they aggressive with mawile and tend to just go right for the attacking moves? Do they double switch with it to gain information about how you play? Do they spam sucker punch? Stuff like that.

A true 50/50 is when you get into a situation where there are very few ways for it to go and exactly half of them result in you losing and the others result in you winning. Consider this:

Both players on their last pokemon, a bisharp vs a talonflame, both on pretty low health. Bisharp will be KOd with two brave birds or one flare blitz, and talonflame will be KO'd by either a sucker punch or a knock off.
1) Talonflame uses brave bird, bisharp uses sucker punch (which fails). Talonflame uses brave bird again and wins.
2) Talonflame uses flare blitz, bisharp uses sucker punch. Bisharp wins.
3) Talonflame uses brave bird, bisharp uses knock off. Bisharp wins.
4) Talonflame uses flare blitz, bisharp uses knock off. Talonflame wins.

THAT is a 50/50.

P.S. don't forget play rough only has 90% accuracy, so take that into account!
Alrite so the first part, I'm not saying that chomp is coming in on mawile as it sets up, we assume that mawile comes in with intimidate, sets up easily on AV azu, outspeeds and kills it, and we move on from there. No need to sweat the details fren.

Also, its quite unreasonable to assume that they speed tie as AV will always be slower even some BD variants will be slower. Ultimately, mega mawile doesn't need the HP at all and its always safe to assume that your mega mawile WILL be faster than the azumarill, so that leaves you to simply jet as your best option after you waterfall as they SD. Also...
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 88-105 (33.9 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Mawile will be AT 50% AFTER jet, not before, You're overestimating mega mawile's bulk here.

So these facts alone can basically invalidate your entire in depth analysis as Mawile isn't 2hko'd by azu's waterfall (and if its band then we don't need to fear the jet) and mawile will basically always be faster than azu. Furthermore, i highly doubt azu will be fully healthy to take on azumarill, as azu is a team player that sponges hits for the team. Mega Mawile on the otehr hand, will stay perfectly healthy in the hands of a smart player until it needs to set up.

Also, about the whole azu switching out part, I honestly don't understand that. Unless you have death fodder ready to be blown to oblivion by a +2 Play Rough, azu should never switch out on mega mawile unless you have an incredibly solid answer to it like mega venu. Of course you're gonna keep it in lol, why would you attack AS it sets up and THEN switch out as mega mawile then has nothing to lose by just using play rough?

The whole reading the opponent's playstyle isn't really too valid either as a skilled opponent could easily just use that to his advantage; he could just play conservatively throughout the entire match and then all of a sudden just play rough that silly garchomp as it SD's predicting sucker. It's not really a great way to ease 50/50s at all.

Might I add, its awfully convenient of you to add in that in your 50/50 example its a last mon situation while you had to pick apart mine just because there were two of them. If you added in another pokemon in your example, I could go and "analyze" the whole situation as well (and it still boils down to pretty much a 50/50)
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Alrite so the first part, I'm not saying that chomp is coming in on mawile as it sets up, we assume that mawile comes in with intimidate, sets up easily on AV azu, outspeeds and kills it, and we move on from there. No need to sweat the details fren.

Also, its quite unreasonable to assume that they speed tie as AV will always be slower even some BD variants will be slower. Ultimately, mega mawile doesn't need the HP at all and its always safe to assume that your mega mawile WILL be faster than the azumarill, so that leaves you to simply jet as your best option after you waterfall as they SD. Also...
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 88-105 (33.9 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Mawile will be AT 50% AFTER jet, not before, You're overestimating mega mawile's bulk here.
Which is why for the sake of my example I said that azu was at +0.

I just grabbed the basic sets off of the calculator which are both at 0 speed EVs. Like I said, it was an example. Want to make azu at -1 and slower? Sure, but then you're admitting that you've been put in a bad situation which the opponent can take advantage of, again skewing your argument to make mmaw look stronger.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 132-156 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, about the whole azu switching out part, I honestly don't understand that. Unless you have death fodder ready to be blown to oblivion by a +2 Play Rough, azu should never switch out on mega mawile unless you have an incredibly solid answer to it like mega venu. Of course you're gonna keep it in lol, why would you attack AS it sets up and THEN switch out as mega mawile then has nothing to lose by just using play rough?
I never said to attack it and then switch out. My examples were like a tree, with the leftmost ones being turn one, the next indentation being turn two, etc.

The whole reading the opponent's playstyle isn't really too valid either as a skilled opponent could easily just use that to his advantage; he could just play conservatively throughout the entire match and then all of a sudden just play rough that silly garchomp as it SD's predicting sucker. It's not really a great way to ease 50/50s at all.
Nothing's stopping you from playing the same way through the match.

I also don't really get what the point of garchomp using SD is. All you're doing is delaying the inevitable. Are you hoping to PP stall it?

Might I add, its awfully convenient of you to add in that in your 50/50 example its a last mon situation while you had to pick apart mine just because there were two of them. If you added in another pokemon in your example, I could go and "analyze" the whole situation as well (and it still boils down to pretty much a 50/50)
Because that's the only sort of situation that's a true 50/50. As soon as you do things like add other pokemon to the equation then the number of things that could happen grows exponentially and there will be some bias towards one side or the other.
 
Been lurking about this thread since its inception, and have probably read most if not all of the postings. I'm not going to lie; when I saw that Mega Mawile was getting suspected, I was really sad. I love this thing to death because Mawile was one of my favorite Pokemon back in my pre-competitive days of Gen 3 and I have always wanted it to see use. However, none of you care about that, so I'm going to begin my actual point.

I'm very on the fence about Mega Mawile. I agree with various pro-ban and anti-ban arguments in the thread. What I think is going to help in reaching our conclusion is taking a step back and looking on the metagame as a whole, and analyzing M-Mawile's place within that metagame. I've seen many people on the pro-ban side post a bunch of calcs (many are completely irrelevant), and while calcs can be useful in determining the relative power of M-Mawile, we already know how powerful she is: really freaking powerful. But her monstrous Attack stat alone isn't enough to merit her ban. We all know that she hits hard, but if she hit too hard it would have been very noticeable and she would have been quick-banned a long time ago, along with M-Kanga and M-Gengar. Using calcs is analyzing a very specific situation in where two individual Pokemon come into battle with everything else completely even, which is very rarely the case. At the same time, sweeping statements like "Well, she has Intimidate to come in and set up" is also false since you are broadening a situation that occurs once to the entire battle, which also never happens. This ambiguity as to whether M-Mawile's stats alone merit her ban is the reason why I believe we need to take a step back and analyze everything as a whole before taking a stance on the matter.

But if her Attack alone isn't enough to ban her, what is? I am of the personal opinion that M-Mawile herself is only 50% (if that) of why she is being suspected for being too powerful for OU. The metagame that surrounds M-Mawile gave her everything to succeed. I read a post on this thread that I agree with whole-heartedly: that while M-Mawile herself isn't necessarily "broken", the state of the metagame we have now made her so. So many times in this thread I have read someone say that many of M-Mawile's checks are unreliable due to the very existence of Stealth Rock, causing multiple Pokemon to be necessary in checking her. Bulky Fire-types are quite decent at checking her, as we have all realized, but they are very rarely used due to the nature of the metagame. Her apparent lack of efficient checks and counters is one of the main reasons she's being suspected in the first place, in my opinion. That being said, I don't necessarily find M-Mawile to be overcentralizing. Unlike Aegislash, whose mere existence requires Pokemon like M-Pinsir and Dragonite to run Earthquake to avoid being walled and made useless respectively, I have never once heard the comment "Man, I really need to run X move to beat M-Mawile instead of Y move". Sure, you might need to pack a M-Mawile check on your team, but that hardly counts as being overcentalizing since preparing for the most common threats is a basic part of teambuilding. My definition of being "overcentralizing" is having to account for a singular threat in the metagame using a strategy or Pokemon that wouldn't normally be used, and M-Mawile doesn't fit that bill.

Furthermore, while her typing and stat distribution has its clear weaknesses, it is absolutely fantastic in our metagame. She has a resistance to the aforementioned and ever-present Stealth Rock. She has two weaknesses in Fire and Ground. For the former, just refer to my previous statements. For the latter, it just so happens that it our metagame the most common Ground move is Earthquake, which is a physical attack that M-Mawile can normally stomach due to her high physical bulk. If Earth Power was in equal usage with Earthquake, it could be entirely possible that M-Mawile would be checked by many more things due to her lackluster special defense (not that this means anything). All of this just shows that M-Mawile fit right into this metagame, but perhaps all too well.

If you've gotten this far in the post, you're probably wondering "when is this n00b going to take a stance". I personally don't feel like I'm qualified enough to take a sure-fire stance; I rarely am on Showdown and am most certainly not claiming to be a high-level player. If I had to choose, I would probably say no ban, since when all of the facts are lined up in front of me I just don't see enough evidence to warrant a ban. That being said, I know better than to think this suspect is that black and white, and I know there are people in this thread who know more than I do. I have just seen a lot of posts in this thread that seem to miss the mark of what SHOULD be analyzed in order to determine M-Mawile's "brokenness". Obviously, you can't judge M-Mawile simply by looking at her stat distribution, and I don't think she should be judged by how much a +2 Play Rough does to a Mega Charizard X, since there are so many specifics that go into that calc that using it as justification is near useless. I'm also quite tired of using 50/50s as an argument against her, as 50/50s are caused by literally any Pokemon with Sucker Punch/Pursuit and it's a part of Pokemon.

All in all, and I suppose you could count this as the tl;dr of this post, people are looking way too into specifics. In order to find out if M-Mawile is truly too powerful for OU, we need to get away with all of the damage calcs and 50/50 arguments and stating the exact value of her Attack stat (seriously guys, stop) and start analyzing the metagame AROUND M-Mawile and whether or not the metagame itself is not strong enough to keep her in it or if the metagame would function better without her.

Thanks for reading, everyone. It's my first post so I apologize if I sound naive or if I ramble. I just don't want M-Mawile to be banned unjustly, since I do love it so darn much. n_n
You bring up an interesting point that the current metagame might just be a really ideal environment for Mega Mawile, and that's why it's succeeding so well... I've seen a lot of arguments raising pokemon like Arcanine and Weezing as possible counters, and the reason they're dismissed is because they aren't relevant threats to the rest of the metagame, so that falls into the same category. But analyzing anything as broad and constantly changing as the current OU metagame is easier said than done, and it seems to me that the reason Smogon bans things in the first place is to try to simplify things in that regard, and make it a more even playing field.

The question I have to raise is, what specifically about the metagame would have to change to rectify the situation? I think that's what everyone needs to consider every time a pokemon is suspected. Would banning this pokemon make the metagame a more even, balanced field? Or would it's loss pave the way for future instability? These are difficult questions to answer, and the reason that this process is so time-consuming. I've heard people bring up arguments stemming from both of those trains of thought, and while I can't say for sure which one I believe to be true in the specific case of Mega Mawile, I can at least rest easy knowing that at least everyone knows the consequences that may be involved.

And that's really the point I want to make. A lot of people can get upset when their favorite pokemon comes up for one of these suspect tests, and that's completely understandable. (I know I'd be upset if Snorlax ever miraculously became over-powered and banned) But I do have a lot of faith in the process that Smogon has going on here. Nothing is done arbitrarily; They take very careful time to measure all the different aspects of each argument and weigh the pros and cons before making a decision. I'm still relatively new here myself, but I've been around long enough to be impressed with the level of care these things are treated with. And while I feel for people whose favorite pokemon come up for suspect tests, that isn't a good enough reason to raise an argument in favor of keeping a potentially unbalanced pokemon around.

The best way to keep the metagame in a place where you're comfortable with it is to get involved in the process. That's why I'm here, and that's why I respect the points you brought up. Anyway, I've rambled enough, and sorry if that was too much philosophy and not enough substance.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
Which is why for the sake of my example I said that azu was at +0.

I just grabbed the basic sets off of the calculator which are both at 0 speed EVs. Like I said, it was an example. Want to make azu at -1 and slower? Sure, but then you're admitting that you've been put in a bad situation which the opponent can take advantage of, again skewing your argument to make mmaw look stronger.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 132-156 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I'm not skewing the argument in any direction lol azumarill is a very common target for mega mawile to set up on and a skilled player can and will assess the team to see if its worth it to try and preserve intimidate, set up on it, and sweep.
Besides, its not really fair to say that I've been put in a bad situation or something. What if I had a +1 Dnite out against azu first? Well what choice does azu have but to kill it and be forcefully put into a bad position thanks to mega mawile? Its nobody's fault, that's just how the game works.
You sack something to so that the pokemon you can set up on it out and can't do much back.

I never said to attack it and then switch out. My examples were like a tree, with the leftmost ones being turn one, the next indentation being turn two, etc.
I know that, i'm just arguing the relevance of those said branches. Its a really dumb play so it shouldn't even be considered.

Nothing's stopping you from playing the same way through the match.

I also don't really get what the point of garchomp using SD is. All you're doing is delaying the inevitable. Are you hoping to PP stall it?
Nothing is stopping me from playing different throughout the match either...........
Also, yes, you SD and just PP stall out sucker punches. If you can do that, you win. Its not delaying the inevitable at all, its just that mega mawile has 8 chances to win a 50/50 and your garchomp has 1. Sure, i guess the odds are kind of against you, but you have a pretty solid chance to get out of this safely, and i'd much rather take my chances and try to win 8 50/50s in a row than just get swept.

Because that's the only sort of situation that's a true 50/50. As soon as you do things like add other pokemon to the equation then the number of things that could happen grows exponentially and there will be some bias towards one side or the other.
I think you're looking at 50/50s a little wrong. Its not about the response of the opponent, its about what move YOU choose. Its a 50/50 of whether mega mawile will use play rough or sucker punch; its not a 50/50 of whether you switch, sd, or eq. There are ultimately going to be two outcomes; a mon on the opponent's side dies or mega mawile dies. So no, last mons situations are not the home of true 50/50s.
 
You bring up an interesting point that the current metagame might just be a really ideal environment for Mega Mawile, and that's why it's succeeding so well... I've seen a lot of arguments raising pokemon like Arcanine and Weezing as possible counters, and the reason they're dismissed is because they aren't relevant threats to the rest of the metagame, so that falls into the same category. But analyzing anything as broad and constantly changing as the current OU metagame is easier said than done, and it seems to me that the reason Smogon bans things in the first place is to try to simplify things in that regard, and make it a more even playing field.

The question I have to raise is, what specifically about the metagame would have to change to rectify the situation? I think that's what everyone needs to consider every time a pokemon is suspected. Would banning this pokemon make the metagame a more even, balanced field? Or would it's loss pave the way for future instability? These are difficult questions to answer, and the reason that this process is so time-consuming. I've heard people bring up arguments stemming from both of those trains of thought, and while I can't say for sure which one I believe to be true in the specific case of Mega Mawile, I can at least rest easy knowing that at least everyone knows the consequences that may be involved.

And that's really the point I want to make. A lot of people can get upset when their favorite pokemon comes up for one of these suspect tests, and that's completely understandable. (I know I'd be upset if Snorlax ever miraculously became over-powered and banned) But I do have a lot of faith in the process that Smogon has going on here. Nothing is done arbitrarily; They take very careful time to measure all the different aspects of each argument and weigh the pros and cons before making a decision. I'm still relatively new here myself, but I've been around long enough to be impressed with the level of care these things are treated with. And while I feel for people whose favorite pokemon come up for suspect tests, that isn't a good enough reason to raise an argument in favor of keeping a potentially unbalanced pokemon around.

The best way to keep the metagame in a place where you're comfortable with it is to get involved in the process. That's why I'm here, and that's why I respect the points you brought up. Anyway, I've rambled enough, and sorry if that was too much philosophy and not enough substance.
Not to sound... defensive(?), but I would like to know where in my post you got the idea that I was making an argument against M-Mawile getting banned just because I like it. Not to mention that I never really even took a clear stance in my post either, besides me saying offhand that I didn't think it should be banned simply from my own experiences, which I know hold no meaning whatsoever.

If the intentions of my post are that unclear, I can go back and edit it. But honestly, when I said that Mawile was one of my favorite Pokemon it was simply as an introduction or background of myself of sorts since I am a new poster here and wasn't meant to actually convey any other ulterior motives. I do have faith in Smogon; while I may be a new account I have been using Smogon tiers for many years and have agreed with most of their decisions. This one I'm more unsure about, but this suspect as well as the Aegislash suspect have both been very close in terms of people who believe its banworthy, as I'm sure you'll agree. I've simply decided to take a more nonpartisan stance until I decide one way or another in order to avoid any bias coming through (which is why I'm posting this to dispel what you appear to have noticed).
 
Mawile is broken whether of not the meta stabilizes or not as it has been a problem for a long time and has managed to evade suspect for a while as other pokemon suspects were needed beforehand. The fact we are suspecting faster is a little bit of an issue but a lot of these suspects are stand-alone mons largely independent of how the meta adapts. This is just my two cents take for what you will but if you do not agree with the community you do not have to follow it or can play on another pokemon battle server such as PO, poke battle, or on cartridge with your friends.

Now on to the actual suspect test mega maw absolutely deserves to be banned and forces to many coin flips and has bulk and power many OU mons wish they had. It's ability to pick and choose its counter thanks to godly coverage is insane. I got reqs and am voting to ban simply because I think it is going to stabilize the meta and hopefully make stall a little more viable again.
 
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Heck, with Mawile's ability, you wouldn't even need to run Swords Dance, since it can always soften up the walls of the opponent and then let another teammate reap the rewards.
And why is that such a problem? If someone needs a hard hitting pokemon for another pokemon to clean up, then that's a nice and fair strategy. Mega mawile is a great pokemon to use this strategy and banning it for that reason seems unfair in my opinion. I understand that mega mawile probably does this better than any other pokemon, but from my experiences, there are quite a few bulky mons that can go head to head against it. Even if mawile beats it 1on1, it will still render it weakened to the point where its no longer a threat. Sucker punch is a thing, but that can be easily played around with.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
And why is that such a problem? If someone needs a hard hitting pokemon for another pokemon to clean up, then that's a nice and fair strategy. Mega mawile is a great pokemon to use this strategy and banning it for that reason seems unfair in my opinion. I understand that mega mawile probably does this better than any other pokemon, but from my experiences, there are quite a few bulky mons that can go head to head against it. Even if mawile beats it 1on1, it will still render it weakened to the point where its no longer a threat. Sucker punch is a thing, but that can be easily played around with.
It's a problem because Mega Mawile is able to threaten Offensive teams thanks to its powerful priority, and it's able to sweep with very little support (which no other Wallbreaker is able to do).
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Also, yes, you SD and just PP stall out sucker punches. If you can do that, you win. Its not delaying the inevitable at all, its just that mega mawile has 8 chances to win a 50/50 and your garchomp has 1. Sure, i guess the odds are kind of against you, but you have a pretty solid chance to get out of this safely, and i'd much rather take my chances and try to win 8 50/50s in a row than just get swept.
See? There you go, they aren't 50/50's, as +2 mawile v garchomp is pretty heavily in mawile's favour and isn't really a 50/50.

I think you're looking at 50/50s a little wrong. Its not about the response of the opponent, its about what move YOU choose. Its a 50/50 of whether mega mawile will use play rough or sucker punch; its not a 50/50 of whether you switch, sd, or eq. There are ultimately going to be two outcomes; a mon on the opponent's side dies or mega mawile dies. So no, last mons situations are not the home of true 50/50s.
50/50's are called that because you don't know what the opponent is going to do and it could go either way. It's not just about what move you choose, it's a combination of BOTH players choosing moves when there's no clear "correct" or "safest" option.

Judging from your posts, a better argument for you might be "mawile's typing and ability make it too easy to set up, and its strong priority make it too difficult to revenge", instead of just calling out 50/50s, because so many other pokemon also cause those. Would you agree with that argument?
 
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Bummer

Jamming to the beat
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And why is that such a problem?
It's not. Plenty of people in this thread assume that Mawile needs to Swords Dance in order to serve as a real threat, but even without that boost, it can still serve as a formidable wallbreaker. I did not bring it up as a reason towards its ban, I brought it up to illustrate the diversity of the sets that Mawile can run and that you don't necessarily need to assume it will be aiming towards setting up when it can start pummelling the opposition throughout the match.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
See? There you go, they aren't 50/50's, as +2 mawile v garchomp is pretty heavily in mawile's favour and isn't really a 50/50.
I'm referring to each individual turn being as a 50/50, not the whole garchomp vs mawile matchup. That's a series of 50/50s that are in mega mawile's favor, but garchomp and mawile still have to flip a coin and hope they get it right; mawile can just afford to guess wrong 8 times and garchomp can afford to guess wrong once. The thing is, its still a 50/50 because the matchup as a whole may be in mawile's favor, but if either of them guess wrong they get the same consequence: death.

50/50's are called that because you don't know what the opponent is going to do and it could go either way. It's not just about what move you choose, it's a combination of BOTH players choosing moves when there's no clear "correct" or "safest" option.

Judging from your posts, a better argument for you might be "mawile's typing and ability make it too easy to set up, and its strong priority make it too difficult to revenge", instead of just calling out 50/50s, because so many other pokemon also cause those. Would you agree with that argument?
No, its not a combination of both players. I don't care what the hell my opponent does if he doesn't EQ and I play rough, something is dying. If I sucker punch and the opponent EQ's, then they die, if they don't then they live. That's all there is to it and the fate of my mawile and the opponents garchomp are both in my hands, and mine alone. The opponent doesn't have any say in this; I choose moves and the opponent just hopes he guesses right to avoid them.

Lastly, no I don't agree with that argument because every pokemon can create "50/50s" but no other pokemon can create them on the level that mega mawile can. Its so strong that its basically a dead mon if you guess wrong. No other pokemon in the game can create 50/50s so absolute and this is a big part of the reason why mawile is so unhealthy.
 
Christ almighty stop with the buzzword usage in the Ban arguments, you make the community as a whole look bad every time you post it. Getting sick of seeing "50/50" or "Uncompetitive" thrown around like candy at a float parade. Next we're gonna' ban every 'mon with both crunch/knockoff and pursuit.

Now then, lets focus on what makes Mawile actually broken.

Firstly and foremost is the excellent typing and ability it has been granted. Intimidate lets you live things you really have no business doing, like Stab EQs from some of the strongest attackers in the tier. Hyper cutter lets you get around an opposing intimidate user for one turn, which can be pretty huge especially if the opponents answer is to switch in Landorus-T on Mawile before it absolutely destroys the team. Aided by this is its incredible Steel/Fairy typing, being even better than that of 5th gen Jirachi with complete dragon immunity and one of the rare Dark type resist. This gives Mawile many free turns where it can abuse its insane off the bat power to not only threaten out the 'mon in front of it, but smash any switchin to it ridiculously hard. This limits the number of times it can be checked/countered, with exceptionally few 'mons that can continuously switch into it (Rotom-H works great in VGC, not here). For something to be considered a usable counter, it needs to actually be able to make good use of the turn it was given by switching in. Nothing truely can do that against Mawile with Aegislash out of the picture, since all relevant counters to Mawile are easily switched in upon, giving momentum back to the Mawile user.

Next is the insane difficulty to Reliably Check Mawile. None of this 50/50 garbage like "Should Talon/Dnite Use priority or predict them to not Sucker," its just straight up impossible to get rid of it if the Mawile user plays it safe. This comes back to that Momentum grabbing thing. Say you get it right and lock yourself into Banded ESpeed/BB, the Mawile will still likely be relatively healthy and can freely switch out instantly returning momentum if you stay in again, or thanks to its insane bulk and typing (and playing it safe) can just stay in to wallop you if you try to double out.

For those things that can actually reliably check Mawile (assuming full HP lol), they have to be played so super carefully as not to take any damage or even be cheeky trying to grab a free turn on an SD. Think about this for a moment.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

55% is the minimum amount of HP you can have as the most sure fire checks to this monster.

Now for the icing on the cake. Say you got your Rotom-W in on Mawile during an SD turn, so you go to Will-O Mawile. Guess what, you just got chunked 65-75% of your HP and are getting killed off the next turn. There goes your answer to Mawile; but it did its job you say? The Mawile user just happens to be packing a nice healing wish Latias in the back and Mawile is back to top shape, and probably against something it can set up on again. Even if the Mawile user does sac it, its ridiculous power means it probably just chunked the next 'mons HP by 40-50% that you came to clean it up with.

TL;DR Down with Buzzwords, Down with Mawile, Up with Facts.

You should not have included this in your post because it makes the rest of it look silly. This same logic can be applied to nearly every mon. Healing Wish does not make a check any less of a check.
-snip
Feel free to ignore the 40-50% chunked off the second 'mon part. Very few sweepers can take advantage of healing wish users. Mawile and Char-X are the exceptional few. The typing has to mesh well with the HW user, and you can't give up free turns.
 
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Now for the icing on the cake. Say you got your Rotom-W in on Mawile during an SD turn, so you go to Will-O Mawile. Guess what, you just got chunked 65-75% of your HP and are getting killed off the next turn. There goes your answer to Mawile; but it did its job you say? The Mawile user just happens to be packing a nice healing wish Latias in the back and Mawile is back to top shape, and probably against something it can set up on again. Even if the Mawile user does sac it, its ridiculous power means it probably just chunked the next 'mons HP by 40-50% that you came to clean it up with.
You should not have included this in your post because it makes the rest of it look silly. This same logic can be applied to nearly every mon. Healing Wish does not make a check any less of a check.

Anyways, I have obtained reqs and hope that I can express my feelings on this test without it being removed. Not allowing Mawile to be used for this test was incredibly stupid. I get it, really. You want to create a metagame where the mon in question is not allowed so that you can see how it impacts the metagame (while still having regular OU). But when does a suspect test ever actually achieve that? Right now there are very few people going out and testing things that previously would not work with Mawile. Why? Becuase nobody cares. I'm sure tons of staff members came together and felt that this was the best way to go about testing Mawile, but I think you many of you fail to realize how few people could care about what's being tested and only care about getting requirements. Nobody wants to handicap themselves by running ass mons for that 3% chance that it MIGHT work a little better than it did when they only care about winning. Had Mawile been allowed, people would be ENCOURAGED to use it, especially those that are participating from tiers outside of OU. And before one of you quote that and go off on your high horse about how we have enough "imbeciles" participating already, keep in mind that they still have to achieve the requirements to vote (just like you!).
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
You should not have included this in your post because it makes the rest of it look silly. This same logic can be applied to nearly every mon. Healing Wish does not make a check any less of a check.
Said checks have to die, let something die to get a free switch, or are severely crippled after dealing with Mawile so they cannot check her again. Healing Wish puts you in a really bad situation where something else needs to die to get a different check in only for it to die or become useless for the rest of the match.
 
TL;DR Down with Buzzwords, Down with Mawile, Up with Facts.
But thanks for the Vitriol.
Classy.

Said checks have to die, let something die to get a free switch, or are severely crippled after dealing with Mawile so they cannot check her again. Healing Wish puts you in a really bad situation where something else needs to die to get a different check in only for it to die or become useless for the rest of the match.
Thank you, this clarifies it a lot more.
 
Haunter I finally got a job so I'm taking myself of of probation; please hand me back my ou and showdown mods. Love you.

As for this thread, here is some basic stuff that you should know; if you can't understand and accept them, then you don't deserve to post in this or any other suspect thread and I will see to it that those posts get deleted. This can be sort of an addendum to post 423.

1. A pokemon's usage Stat in a tier has no bearing on its status of brokenness. The ladder, which is considered by the elite to be the poorest representation of skill in (serious) competitive Pokemon, is not the entire metagame. There exists a tournament scene that some see as more important to Smogon than the ladder - indeed it is the highest level of competitive play. The sample size of tournaments is too far too small to use as a statistical base so tiering is done by our ladders. This applied mostly in swagplay which wad the stupidest and most brainless strategy in existence that a monkey could be trained - yet it's usage was very low. Who cares, good riddance.

2. A pokemon's performance in ubers has no bearing in its suspect status in ou. It matters not that 252/252 impish Groudon takes lol damage from mawile and can 2hko back. Groudon has no bearing on OU because he is not in ou.

If you cannot get past those two very basic principles then you don't understand how things work around here. Lurk more, stop making a fool of yourself.

Thanks.

PS haunter I'm serious.
you basically are saying only people who play in tournaments matter. i can tell you are trying to insult people by saying these elites consider the OU ladder not good. thats an opinion dont make it seem like what these people say is law. people that play on the ladder primarily try out new things. i love smogon however im not a sheep who will agree with everything people like you think. should mawile be banned yes its power is immense even when burned 2hkoing the meta is very strong. but dont go on the computer and treat the community who made this place as popular as it is like garbage. its pokemon,everyone is here to have fun in the most competitive way possible but that doesnt make it right to label groups of people good or bad and try to bully them because they dont put as much time into their builds, play styles,or strategy. just chill man yeah everyone is entitled to opinions but the point of this thread is to counter those opinions thats all. dont take offense to this its not serious but i think its something worth saying. when is voting has there not been enough proof to ban mawile?
 
You should not have included this in your post because it makes the rest of it look silly. This same logic can be applied to nearly every mon. Healing Wish does not make a check any less of a check.

Anyways, I have obtained reqs and hope that I can express my feelings on this test without it being removed. Not allowing Mawile to be used for this test was incredibly stupid. I get it, really. You want to create a metagame where the mon in question is not allowed so that you can see how it impacts the metagame (while still having regular OU). But when does a suspect test ever actually achieve that? Right now there are very few people going out and testing things that previously would not work with Mawile. Why? Becuase nobody cares. I'm sure tons of staff members came together and felt that this was the best way to go about testing Mawile, but I think you many of you fail to realize how few people could care about what's being tested and only care about getting requirements. Nobody wants to handicap themselves by running ass mons for that 3% chance that it MIGHT work a little better than it did when they only care about winning. Had Mawile been allowed, people would be ENCOURAGED to use it, especially those that are participating from tiers outside of OU. And before one of you quote that and go off on your high horse about how we have enough "imbeciles" participating already, keep in mind that they still have to achieve the requirements to vote (just like you!).
It's funny you should mention this; I was actually thinking about that same thing myself. I was debating as to whether or not I should try to achieve enough reqs for a vote, but then I wondered, "Wait, if I battle on the suspect ladder then I won't come any closer to understanding why M-Mawile is so broken, since you can't use her". Now that you mention it, I do find it odd that, for a Pokemon who I feel like we have agreed won't make too much of an impact on the meta if it's banned, we have to play a suspect test where the meta is one where M-Mawile is banned. Seems counter-productive, doesn't it?
 
I think we can all agree that Mega Mawile has all the traits of a pokemon at the top of OU, therefore making it a suspect in the first place (good typing, stats that enable it to perform it's role, being blessed with a good ability, decent movepool and it's true checks/counters are confined in lower tiers).

While I'm not going to argue the utility of the argument that some checks counters don't count due to stealth rock (OU counts pokemon that don't appreciate SR as well), I will ask you guys this: what impact will it have? I currently think that M-Mawile fits in OU a little too well, but I wonder if her going Ubers will bring some major change. I mean, chew me out for being ignorant, but I can't picture how meta will change. Whilst with Aegislash, there was a somewhat better picture of what pokemon could rise to the occasion more now that the dreaded sword left for higher battlefields.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
I think we can all agree that Mega Mawile has all the traits of a pokemon at the top of OU, therefore making it a suspect in the first place (good typing, stats that enable it to perform it's role, being blessed with a good ability, decent movepool and it's true checks/counters are confined in lower tiers).

While I'm not going to argue the utility of the argument that some checks counters don't count due to stealth rock (OU counts pokemon that don't appreciate SR as well), I will ask you guys this: what impact will it have? I currently think that M-Mawile fits in OU a little too well, but I wonder if her going Ubers will bring some major change. I mean, chew me out for being ignorant, but I can't picture how meta will change. Whilst with Aegislash, there was a somewhat better picture of what pokemon could rise to the occasion more now that the dreaded sword left for higher battlefields.
The meta doesn't need to change because we're not suspecting mega mawile for being overcentralizing. Its just so stupidly powerful that the most people will really do in an attempt to check it is try to get a lando-t/heatran/keldeo on their team; none of which are terribly uncommon in the first place.
 

NixHex

Uangaana kasuttortunga!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
you basically are saying only people who play in tournaments matter. i can tell you are trying to insult people by saying these elites consider the OU ladder not good. thats an opinion dont make it seem like what these people say is law. people that play on the ladder primarily try out new things. i love smogon however im not a sheep who will agree with everything people like you think. should mawile be banned yes its power is immense even when burned 2hkoing the meta is very strong. but dont go on the computer and treat the community who made this place as popular as it is like garbage. its pokemon,everyone is here to have fun in the most competitive way possible but that doesnt make it right to label groups of people good or bad and try to bully them because they dont put as much time into their builds, play styles,or strategy. just chill man yeah everyone is entitled to opinions but the point of this thread is to counter those opinions thats all. dont take offense to this its not serious but i think its something worth saying. when is voting has there not been enough proof to ban mawile?
I'm only an average player myself and I don't pay attention to the tournament scene at all. My point was objective, as in FACT. That is the tiering and banning philosophy that Smogon aims for. Ladder usage doesn't matter because a Pokemon's usage is independent of its brokenness. It's a basic principle and it literally is irrelevant. That post was to remind people in this thread of what arguments are to be taken seriously and which ones don't matter. After this, any posts regarding Smogon's banning philosophy will be deleted because they have nothing to do with Mawile.
 
You said "chance" No Mega Mawile cannot survive a Specs Hydro Pump from a Keldeo whether it has Modest nature or not. Still, you're forgetting that Mega Mawile will still be crippled from a Wisp anyway. When you have Pokemon that's already fainted, then you're bound to switch into Mega Mawile. Also SubPunch is still isn't all that good cause I tried the set months ago.

You're thinking "Oh Mega Mawile is able to survive any sp attack once while in Mega." Not in this case when Heatran can destroy her with one Earth Power. Even physical wise, someone can just use Garchomp to Earthquake her in one hit.
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 226-266 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol max sp.att Heatran, calcing it anyway to show that it definitely won't OHKO)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 279-328 (91.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Not even accounting for intimidate)

I'm not sure why you're "correcting" someone with blatantly incorrect things when they were right in the first place.

As for stating that "SubPunch isn't all that good cause I tried it months ago", not only is that not accounting for differences between the past metagame and the current metagame, but it says nothing about the set itself. Just because you, personally could not succeed with the set doesn't mean that the set itself is bad, it could simply be that you played the set poorly. A set which has been widely used and proven to be viable isn't all of a sudden "not all that good" because you tried it several months ago and it didn't meet your expectations.
 
Not to sound... defensive(?), but I would like to know where in my post you got the idea that I was making an argument against M-Mawile getting banned just because I like it. Not to mention that I never really even took a clear stance in my post either, besides me saying offhand that I didn't think it should be banned simply from my own experiences, which I know hold no meaning whatsoever.

If the intentions of my post are that unclear, I can go back and edit it. But honestly, when I said that Mawile was one of my favorite Pokemon it was simply as an introduction or background of myself of sorts since I am a new poster here and wasn't meant to actually convey any other ulterior motives. I do have faith in Smogon; while I may be a new account I have been using Smogon tiers for many years and have agreed with most of their decisions. This one I'm more unsure about, but this suspect as well as the Aegislash suspect have both been very close in terms of people who believe its banworthy, as I'm sure you'll agree. I've simply decided to take a more nonpartisan stance until I decide one way or another in order to avoid any bias coming through (which is why I'm posting this to dispel what you appear to have noticed).
Oh, I completely understood what points you were making, and my reply was more toward the general public instead of you personally; your points just brought up some things I'd been thinking about recently, and it seemed like a good opportunity to get them out there. I didn't mean to point any fingers at you personally, just a friendly reminder to everyone the reasoning behind what's happening here, which it sometimes seems like a lot of people don't quite get.
 
You bring up an interesting point that the current metagame might just be a really ideal environment for Mega Mawile, and that's why it's succeeding so well... I've seen a lot of arguments raising pokemon like Arcanine and Weezing as possible counters, and the reason they're dismissed is because they aren't relevant threats to the rest of the metagame, so that falls into the same category. But analyzing anything as broad and constantly changing as the current OU metagame is easier said than done, and it seems to me that the reason Smogon bans things in the first place is to try to simplify things in that regard, and make it a more even playing field.

The question I have to raise is, what specifically about the metagame would have to change to rectify the situation? I think that's what everyone needs to consider every time a pokemon is suspected. Would banning this pokemon make the metagame a more even, balanced field? Or would it's loss pave the way for future instability? These are difficult questions to answer, and the reason that this process is so time-consuming. I've heard people bring up arguments stemming from both of those trains of thought, and while I can't say for sure which one I believe to be true in the specific case of Mega Mawile, I can at least rest easy knowing that at least everyone knows the consequences that may be involved.

And that's really the point I want to make. A lot of people can get upset when their favorite pokemon comes up for one of these suspect tests, and that's completely understandable. (I know I'd be upset if Snorlax ever miraculously became over-powered and banned) But I do have a lot of faith in the process that Smogon has going on here. Nothing is done arbitrarily; They take very careful time to measure all the different aspects of each argument and weigh the pros and cons before making a decision. I'm still relatively new here myself, but I've been around long enough to be impressed with the level of care these things are treated with. And while I feel for people whose favorite pokemon come up for suspect tests, that isn't a good enough reason to raise an argument in favor of keeping a potentially unbalanced pokemon around.

The best way to keep the metagame in a place where you're comfortable with it is to get involved in the process. That's why I'm here, and that's why I respect the points you brought up. Anyway, I've rambled enough, and sorry if that was too much philosophy and not enough substance.
Its very rare to find posts that are very thought provoking but yours definitely does that... thank you for that sir... or shall I say fren ^_^

But to further add to that point, no matter what we do when it comes to banning/restricting certain aspects of the meta, whether it be a move, an ability, a combination of moves and abilities, or a Pokémon as a whole, the meta will always feel unbalanced to a degree.

Its like trying to create parity in any sport, some succeed and others flail around struggling to reach the open opportunities of the sea.

In the end, in a competitive environment people will always gravitate towards what gives them the best opportunity to win; however, it is up to the conglomerate who take the time to parse through the information to make as informed a determination as possible with the overall health of the metagame in mind and, most importantly, to stick to their decision and see it through, regardless of how unpopular it might be.

As for my opinion of Mega Mawile, I believe its prominence is two fold. First, Mega Mawile, thanks to its combination of typing granting it certain immunities, a very powerful ability (or two since Intimidate assist in weakening physical attackers and forcing switches) and access to a priority move with a very good offensive movepool and support pool; he is simply a beast to take down.

However, thanks to the meta banning Aegislash; there was now one less thing that can combat it AND a void in terms of using a coveted Steel type Pokémon as one of our team slots that would normally have been filled by Aegislash. Sure, Mawile would use up your Mega slot, but with the given list of advantages that he brings, its simply to tempting NOT to build a team around him and exploit it.

I personally like Mega Mawile a lot (check out my team http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...mpt-at-understanding-the-gen-vi-meta.3502101/) but given that it is potentially unhealthy for the Meta, I wouldn't at all be shock nor discouraged if he were to be given a place in Ubers. That just how I feel about it.
 
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