np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm going to try and give a balanced argument here although my user states otherwise.
My user is King Mawile for a reason, Mawile is the best of the best in OU. Amazing typing deffensively and to a lesser extent offensively means that Mawile's checks/counters are scarce. Amazing bulk backs up this typing meaning it can tank most unboosted attacks in the meta. Access to (unreliable) priority and strong STABs make this pokemon an offensive beast. However, it is not without it's flaws. It has horrid speed meaning it will usually take damage before giving it out. It is also weak to common attacking types in the OU meta. Its STABs don't give it the best offensive presence against fire and/or steel types.
All Mawile's different sets have checks/counters but you usually sack a pokemon or two to find out what set it is running.
I'm currently on the fence about this suspect however base 259 attack and access to perfect coverage means this pokemon will most likely be banned.
 
Reasons to ban:
-Huge attack stat and great offensive typing making him hard to switch into
-Not awesome but pretty good offensive movepool, making him able for example to not be revenge killed as a subpuncher while having a better chance to beat wow tran / rotom-w 1v1 (and pressuring skarm on his roost which is pretty great)
- Good luck trying to counter him, your only hope is to have some faster dark/fight/fairy type mons who can ohko it without taking too much, (Keldeo / Megattar for example...and it's pretty much a centralization in itself, because you can't deal with it without that, don't even try) Wow CharX is a pretty good check but if you have to play stall to even check a mon that's a good reason to ban him
-Force the metagame to be based around some 50/50 wins with sucker punch which pretty much sucks and is not funny nor entertaining to play/build/watch.
-Not the best reason but like aegislash, M-Mawile is blocking the path to the balanced side of the metagame, being able to revenge kill (while aegislash was walling anything) everything that is not a dark resist.
Reasons to not ban
-Hard to set-up against some offensive teams and can be revenge, it's all about prediction about when you sucker punch / play rough and when you SD, but if you opponent pressures you on the SD turn, you are forced to kill him...pretty funny considering being able to kill at least a mon per battle without setting up could be a reason to ban too lmao.
-Well...yeah, i don't see him, and i'm not being biased at all, there is in my opinion to reason to keep him in OU.
 
So, you enjoyed the previous metagame. Good on you. The vast majority of the playerbase hated dealing with Mega Gengar, Mega Kanga, Mega Lucario, and we made the majority call to remove these unhealthy, un-"fun" elements from the metagame. If you enjoy using pokemon we banned, there is nothing stopping you from making up your own tiers and playing with your mates...

...Don't worry mate, you can continue to fanboy Dragonite for a long while yet.



Yeah...I wouldn't really call others out when you are pretty much calling for us to return to the Mega Gengar metagame
Do not put words into my mouth please. I never once said that I opposed the suspect tests of six months ago because the bans were very unanimous and I supported those bans alongside almost everybody else. I am not directly opposed to suspect tests, the only point I was trying to make was that I had concerns. However, since you don't seem overly concerned about a slippery slope argument and I don't wish to have this post deleted, I'll say something on topic.

Mega Mawile is a pokemon of incredible brute force that certainly has a way of narrowing down what can stomach a hit on a switch-in and actually do something back. Because I prefer a much bulkier and borderline stall team, I haven't had as much trouble with mawile, but I can see how facing mega mawile with a hyper offensive team could spell big trouble and having to sack a pokemon just to have a chance to switch in a take out mawile (after taking heavy damage from a sucker punch).

Sure there are tons of pokemon that force mawile out, but only AFTER they can switch in safely (looking at you rotom).

Sucker punch is what pushes mawile over the edge for me. What seperates mawile from other wallbreakers is that it can boost its already absurd attack and can hide behind a priority move to minimize the issue of its poor speed unlike something like magnezone that is anchored by its slow speed and therefore easily revenge killed. Sure you can try and play some mind games with your opponent and stall out sucker punch, but playing a game of 50-50 chances with mind games thrown in does not general turn out very well. If I'm not mistaken, 50-50 draws were a part of why aegislash was banned, so I see no reason why this should not apply here.

I have hardly ever run into a sub-punch mawile, but I can see how it would spell trouble for conventional checks and counters like heatran and lead to some impractical team building choices that have to be taken to stomach the different sets that mawile can run.

My conclusion is that although mawile's low speed does hold it back in many ways, its unrivaled attack power and the power to boost that even further while hiding behind a priority move is just something that not many teams can take without suffering many casualties. So in my opinion: BAN
 
While I can't say for sure the meta won't change much after mawile's gone, I will say that I'll be happy to use awesome wallbreakers like Mega Medicham, Mega Garchomp and so on without being laughed at.

That aside, I've heard a lot of people (on this thread and others) talking about how Four Moveslot syndrome is one of the reasons mega mawile shouldn't be banned. I just want to stress on this...
4MSS IS NOT ALWAYS A BAD THING.

Let's go back to the basics, a definition. 4MSS, or my noobish understanding of it, refers to when a pokemon doesn't have a set that grants it perfect coverage. Say, for example, Mega medicham. It's awesome, yeah, but it has 4MSS. If I ran fire punch on it, it would get walled by gliscor and slowbro. If I ran thunder punch on it, it would get walled by defensive latias and aegislash, and so on. Pokemon that don't have 4MSS, such as greninja, Conkledurr, Mega Kangaskhan up in ubers, zangoose down in NU, and the like are all great threats in their respective tiers.

Now lets look at Mega Mawile. The usual set is play rough, SD, and two moves of choice. If it runs fire fang and sucker punch, it's walled by heatran, yep. If it runs SubPunch, Heatran's gone, but there's possibly some other check that'll get it, like idk, defensive zapdos? And so on. But here's the problem:
1. No one in OU, (apart from lolghosttypes) likes to take a base 150 powered move, of an awesome offensive typing, coming from the highest attack stat in the GAME.
2. How do you know it's running sub punch? Heck, how do you know what it's running? It's got so many viable sets, fast sub, SubPunch, SubSwords, Support, BP, SD, and even SD has many choices when it comes to a filler move.
What's worse, it's got sucker punch too, further adding to these 50/50s, a buzzword we're seeing too much on this thread tbh. Your mandibuzz would switch into it happily, but Play rough! Your gliscor/landorus would love to switch into it, but what if Ice fang? Defensive zard? Stone Edge! Ferrothorn/skarmory? Fire fang! It goes on and on and on...
While these 50/50s put both the player and the opponent at risk, we, being the laughing stocks of the community smogon, hate it when the metagame gets uncompetitive in the sense that we rely on luck, not skill, to win. So we ban it. Which I unfortunately support despite my love for mega mawile :(
 
Last edited:
My Pre-laddering thoughts:
I was on the fence about mega mawile, but was leaning more towards banning it. I describe my reasons in my previous post: basically being able to find numerous switch-in opportunities, with almost nothing viable enough able to counter it.

My Post-laddering thoughts:
I am no longer on the fence, and am in favor of banning mawilite. So far the only anti-ban argument I have seen that satisfies me is the fact that it can't run all the moves it needs at once; however, like others have said, this requires teams to run 2-3 pokemon just to counter one (and it is very possible to lose one pokemon in the attempt to counter it). Also, I realized, despite the not-too-high power of its only priority move, this is still stronger than most STAB priority moves that pokemon get (80 power as opposed to 60). Normally (except for talonflame) priority is very weak, but mega mawile is one of the pokemon that can turn it into a very real threat. Not really much has changed about my thoughts for mega mawile, but I have become more certain about my stance; mega mawile has the ability to eliminate at least one pokemon, and by then its work is done, as it has provided the support necessary for the rest of the team to sweep or wall.

Irrelevant Thoughts:
I've wondered why mega mawile is banned from the suspect ladder. I could understand with aegislash to observe how much the meta would change, but I feel like it would have been better if mega mawile were allowed on this ladder to more easily observe how well it did. In addition, I've been wondering about making all playstyles equally viable: stall works by countering the meta. If there is something stall cannot counter, then that pokemon can rip through stall teams. However, if stall can counter everything, it becomes nearly undefeatable bar hax.
 
That was certainly an interesting post...but why not add to those the valve of what those pokemon do in return? For example, Keldeo. If Mawile is at full, he can take the specs boosted hit and just KO with Play Rough rather than Sucker Punching twice to take it out. Then unless you have another pokemon that can live the Sucker Punch, Mega Mawile will run through the team, even if it did take some damage dealing with Keldeo.

Comparing it to CharX and Lando-I (who are both up on the list for potential suspects after this one is done) is also pretty telling. Its possible all three end up being deemed broken and banned.

Finally, just because something isn't as broken as something else doesn't mean it isn't broken to begin with. Is Mega Mawile as obviously broken as Arceus would be? No, but that doesn't mean we should unban everything else because Arceus happens to be the most broken of the broken things.
 
I have to say that now people are complaining recently about Mega Mawile "now." At the same time I'm against the ban apparently since I been using Mega Mawile since it was ever introduced into meta. People are certainly taking this out of proportion. To me, Mega Mawile will certainly not survive in uber at all. I've already brought it into that tier a few times. Even though its bulky ( kind of ) I've used the Sucker Dance and the Sub Punch. If this seems to be an issue toward the complaining group, why not just ban Sucker Punch instead? The only thing that's destroying Mawile is speed and lack of recovery besides rest. Throughout my times of battling along side Mawile, I've encountered many threats in every game to counter Mawile. As soon as I heard about this news today, I immediately tested it. As far as I'm concerned Talonflame and a couple others like Charizard can completely destroy it. As I've ran into problems like Wil o-wisp, to cripple Mawile and a bunch of Pokemon outspeed it. I see a lot of roar and whirlwind users. I'm surprised they were able to take down Mawile period. If Mawile goes, then the only other physical attacker that's a fairy type is Azumarill. You can forget about slurpuff "trying" to be a physical attacker rather its better off special.

If by anything, Charizard X also needs to be tested as well.
 

Anty

let's drop
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
50/50's with sucker punch should not be raised as an issue, considering that 50/50's make up the competitive meta and every good pokemon forces them as often as they can. Also "lol you will-o-wisp the sucker punch, Mawile is easy to fight!" is not something you can do against smart players, who may have anything from a good will-o switchin, a sub Mawile set, or a cleric to which they can get the kill and gladly run to, fixing the "crippled" Mawile.

Thing about Mawile is it does have to rely on sucker punch in situations against faster pokemon, and there's a good few. I think Mawile's ridiculous, but so is Char X and Thundurus, and it should be dealt with. I'm anti-ban, BUT I don't entirely care to say my opinion more than that. The collective of all of us knows more about this metagame than any given one of us. I will provide some data however.

Since a lot of people are talking about the prio, let's give Mawile an ideal scenario, it switches into an attack with mimimal damage, forces them out and does a swords dance. This is ideal for Mawile, and I made some assumptions, but it's safe to say that with full hp Mawile this can and may happen once a match in the hands of a good player. Now, I've heard sucker punch to be the reason for ban from a lot of folks. This might make sense, as a +2 sucker punch kills.....well, let's find out. Here's the OU viability list, in order, and their bulk against a sucker punch.

S Rank
- Azumarill: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
- Charizard X: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 301-355 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, I'm giving this to Mega Mawile DESPITE the fact that will-o-wisp bulky Char X has this matchup for free, since SD sucker punch does more than either STAB, which cannot react to a will-o-wisp, and spamming play rough while burned will not last long enough versus roost and will-o, in this case Subpunch would still not guaranteed ohko, but do much better. That said, remember that sub/punch would remove the +2 from these other calcs, in addition to some coverage. I'm giving this to Mawile because it beats the offensive set, but it should be noted this isn't in either person's favor depending on set.
- Keldeo: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Landorus: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 359-423 (112.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Thundurus: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 441-519 (147 - 173%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A+ Rank
- Charizard Y: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 404-476 (135.5 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Clefable: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, and with unaware doesn't die to a +2 play rough either.
- Excadrill: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Garchomp: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
- Greninja: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 228-269 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Gyarados (mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 153-180 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
- Heatran: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 313-369 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
- Latias: Lolnope
- Latios: Lolnope
- Pinsir (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 280-330 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Scizor (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 246-290 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Talonflame: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 436-513 (146.3 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Tyranitar (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 116-136 (33.9 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- Venusaur (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (irrelevant because sleep powder, Venusaur will do well in this spot versus SD Mawile)

A Rank
- Bisharp: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 164-194 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (irrelevant in Mawile's favor because Bisharp has barely a 2hko to respond with)
- Dragonite: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 172-202 (53 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Ferrothorn: Doesn't matter because without fire fang or focus punch this is wholly in Ferrothorn's favor. I'm calcing standard right now because it does deal with the most threats, so it'd be a good litmus test of how many threats individual sets take, so this one is not in Mawile's favor.
- Gengar: HAHAHAHA, ded, is what I would say, except that sub-disable and will-o-wisp Gengar sets do extremely well in this situation, speed makes up for this terrifying number. +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- Gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 106-125 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO. Sub and play rough not 2hko'ing after poison heal makes this one a lost cause for Mawile.
- Hippowdon: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-420 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO -- 12.5% chance to OHKO, made relevant by putting 28 EVs in speed to outspeed bulky Mawile builds, who have an easier time setting up anyway. I did play rough because it's slower. Despite the near ohko, a sucker punch versus play rough in the case of Hippo's next-turn slack off versus EQ makes this a true 50/50 resulting in the death of either poke, I'm giving it to Hippo since this is in an ideal situation for Mawile in the matchup.
- Landorus-T: +1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 135-159 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Mamoswine: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 396-466 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Mandibuzz: Irrelevant because Mandi cannot do anything to threaten Mawile once in.
- Rotom-W: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO, and just to be complete about things, +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Terrakion: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, made worse for Mawile in the case of subrrakion sets.
- Tyranitar (regular): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 151-178 (44.1 - 52%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

A- Rank
- Breloom: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 198-233 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, made worse via spore.
- Chansey: Not relevant, what the hell can Chansey do?
- Diggersby: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 408-481 (130.7 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Gardevoir (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 467-550 (167.9 - 197.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Gyarados (regular): +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 300-353 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- Heracross (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 146-172 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
- Kyurem-B: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 329-388 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Manaphy: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 329-388 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
- Medicham (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 417-491 (159.7 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Mew: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 277-327 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, more relevant than the sucker punch calc because the only mew set to ever switch in would be the stallbreaker will-o version.
- Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 189-223 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The downside of an Aegislash-less meta is this little thing runs wild.

So, 21 of those 43 pokemon can, when Mawile gets a safe switchin and boost on switchout (which does take a modicum of skill), take a +2 sucker punch and do something. A few of these pokemon would die to a sub on switchin or a focus punch or a fire fang as coverage, but saying it did that would also remove some of the ko's Mawile would get by missing a coverage move or by not SD'ing and being at +2 in the first place, so there are both factors for and against Mawile at play from this list. It's impossible to boil down all matchups, and to say "well Mawile can have this" while subconsciously remembering the advantages Mawile gets from running standard, two things that cannot happen at once, is a logical fallacy.

Additional info in favor of Mawile: With the standard set, a play rough on switchin followed by a sucker punch does impact many of these matchups differently, and should be considered. But SD is what we should test, as it is the reason Mawile can take out multiple pokemon, and is the reason this suspecting even came up.

Back to the point. 21 out of 43 when you find the time to safely boost. If I checked the numbers for Charizard X after a dragon dance, or maybe Sheer Orb Landorus after a calm mind, using all their coverage moves rather than just sucker punch because they have the speed to do so, I would find similar numbers. In faaaact, let's take a short look

Landorus in a similar boost-on-switchout Scenario

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 407-481 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 782-923 (262.4 - 309.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 497-585 (153.8 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 710-837 (233.5 - 275.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 274-324 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (AND 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 265-317 (82.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 203-239 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 863-1016 (238.3 - 280.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 391-461 (109.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-534 (158 - 186.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Irrelevant in Greninja's favor because ice beam and higher speed
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 486-572 (146.3 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 419-494 (108.5 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Latias and Latios: would win that matchup if I was using Sludge Wave, but like with Mawile, looking at the more standard part of coverage moves to be fair.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 250-294 (92.2 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 341-402 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 309-364 (103.6 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 393-463 (114.9 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 387-458 (106.3 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And for shits and giggles: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Out of 20 pokemon, 6 can take a shot, not including coverage moves like sludge wave, and I am being generous and counting this matchup in Mega Gyarados's favor (will not die to psychic, Earth Power or Focus Blast if it had not mega'ed), and Thundurus's favor (faster and cannot ohko but 50% chance to live and strike again), in addition to Lati@s, Greninja, and Char Y.

Also notice that in this situation, prio doesn't entirely matter, the main contenders are Azumarill (81.2 - 96.2% if using Band, will not ohko), Talonflame (80 - 94.6% with Band, same as Zoomy), and of course Mawile (56.2 - 66.2%, won't even kill after hazards)

Now, there's other prio, but it doesn't impact this matchup in the slightest, even Mega Pinsir, who I had a 50% chance to ohko, does a small amount with quick attack after switching in.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 106-126 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Return and Quick Attack can kill, but I'd put this one in Landorus's favor.

6 out of 20 versus 21 out of 43.

Charizard X in a similar boost-on-switchout Scenario

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Azumarill can take a shot and retaliate with a banded play rough that doesn't quite ohko, but might after recoil....what the heck, let's give it to her anyway.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 312-367 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 469-553 (146.5 - 172.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 710-836 (233.5 - 275%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 577-679 (192.3 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 396-466 (132.8 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (and solidly 2hko's unaware variants so that doesn't really change the matchup)
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 1302-1532 (359.6 - 423.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 594-702 (165.9 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 396-466 (138.4 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 178-210 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, counting intimidate on this one.
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 456-540 (118.1 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lati@s: so very dead
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 732-864 (270.1 - 318.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 1288-1516 (374.4 - 440.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO, the deadest
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 378-445 (126.8 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 252-298 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 360-426 (98.9 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO, what thick fat?

Out of 20 pokemon, 3 can take the shot. Hehehe...

In the same case as Landorus, the relevant prio is Mawile (50.6 - 59.7%), Mega Pinsir (30.2 - 35.5%), and Talonflame (72.4 - 85.5% with Band), and all of them do a little less than they do to Lando, plus recoil from Flare Blitz when applicable, balances out relatively.



Both of these pokemon have much better sweeping ratios than Mawile, and when they are played smart, they also get one near-guaranteed kill. Less bulk, no intimidate, more power, don't care about burn, more speed, still amazing typings, there are trade-offs in favor of Mawile and trade-offs in favor of these two. The point I'm making is, if you get such similar results with Mawile as other big smashy pokemon...is it broken at that point or just really damn good? My thoughts are toward the latter.

We're playing with wrecking balls all over the place. I am voting no ban. I won't be offended if the ban passes, but I think this thing can stay, offensive powerhouse or not.
Its obvious how you seem to be biased against mawile:
'Ferrothorn: Doesn't matter because without fire fang or focus punch this is wholly in Ferrothorn's favor.' Most sd mawile will be running fire fang. There are others like the calc with azumarril when mawile should be using iron head/play rough (ik they have the same speed tier) or a gliscor calc where mawile is burned somehow.

Also, what is mega mawile doing setting up if the opp has a full health specs keldeo on the field? You can't expect mawile to beat the entire tier at full health - non of the previous suspects could do that. Mega mawile is a more of a late game cleaner (although it does end games early), you have to consider that the mega mawile user is decent enough to know what he has to ware down. Are you setting up with bulk xzard when the opp has a scarf lando-t? are you trying to sweep with a landorus when the opp has a weavile/mamoswine? You also forget that mawile can switch out on a check after its got a ko, nobody is saying it 6-0's.

'But SD is what we should test, as it is the reason Mawile can take out multiple pokemon, and is the reason this suspecting even came up.'
That is completely wrong. You can bring in heatran expecting to wall sd but then get ko'd by a focus punch will gives one of mawiles allies an easier job (latios maybe).

You are also showing a positive side to lando/charizard. Why does azu need to take an earth power when it (banded) has a good chance to ko after rocks? How is keldeo getting hit by calm mind landorus when it outspeeds and ohkos? Calm mind Landorus-i also isnt a sweeper due to its lack of speed. Sweeping ratios mean nothing (unless your only using 1 poke in a team) and landoi and xzard are broken in some peoples opinions (but im not here to talk about that).

Yes mawile relies on sucker punch, but its not its only move (play rough, fire fang, iron head, focus punch even knock off). Also mawile is very good at getting a kill everytime it comes in due people expecting swords dance or its huge power (punpun).
 
50/50's with sucker punch should not be raised as an issue, considering that 50/50's make up the competitive meta and every good pokemon forces them as often as they can. Also "lol you will-o-wisp the sucker punch, Mawile is easy to fight!" is not something you can do against smart players, who may have anything from a good will-o switchin, a sub Mawile set, or a cleric to which they can get the kill and gladly run to, fixing the "crippled" Mawile.

Thing about Mawile is it does have to rely on sucker punch in situations against faster pokemon, and there's a good few. I think Mawile's ridiculous, but so is Char X and Thundurus, and it should be dealt with. I'm anti-ban, BUT I don't entirely care to say my opinion more than that. The collective of all of us knows more about this metagame than any given one of us. I will provide some data however.

Since a lot of people are talking about the prio, let's give Mawile an ideal scenario, it switches into an attack with mimimal damage, forces them out and does a swords dance. This is ideal for Mawile, and I made some assumptions, but it's safe to say that with full hp Mawile this can and may happen once a match in the hands of a good player. Now, I've heard sucker punch to be the reason for ban from a lot of folks. This might make sense, as a +2 sucker punch kills.....well, let's find out. Here's the OU viability list, in order, and their bulk against a sucker punch.

S Rank
- Azumarill: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
- Charizard X: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 301-355 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, I'm giving this to Mega Mawile DESPITE the fact that will-o-wisp bulky Char X has this matchup for free, since SD sucker punch does more than either STAB, which cannot react to a will-o-wisp, and spamming play rough while burned will not last long enough versus roost and will-o, in this case Subpunch would still not guaranteed ohko, but do much better. That said, remember that sub/punch would remove the +2 from these other calcs, in addition to some coverage. I'm giving this to Mawile because it beats the offensive set, but it should be noted this isn't in either person's favor depending on set.
- Keldeo: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Landorus: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 359-423 (112.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Thundurus: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 441-519 (147 - 173%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A+ Rank
- Charizard Y: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 404-476 (135.5 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Clefable: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, and with unaware doesn't die to a +2 play rough either.
- Excadrill: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Garchomp: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
- Greninja: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 228-269 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Gyarados (mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 153-180 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
- Heatran: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 313-369 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
- Latias: Lolnope
- Latios: Lolnope
- Pinsir (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 280-330 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Scizor (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 246-290 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Talonflame: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 436-513 (146.3 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Tyranitar (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 116-136 (33.9 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- Venusaur (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (irrelevant because sleep powder, Venusaur will do well in this spot versus SD Mawile)

A Rank
- Bisharp: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 164-194 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (irrelevant in Mawile's favor because Bisharp has barely a 2hko to respond with)
- Dragonite: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 172-202 (53 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Ferrothorn: Doesn't matter because without fire fang or focus punch this is wholly in Ferrothorn's favor. I'm calcing standard right now because it does deal with the most threats, so it'd be a good litmus test of how many threats individual sets take, so this one is not in Mawile's favor.
- Gengar: HAHAHAHA, ded, is what I would say, except that sub-disable and will-o-wisp Gengar sets do extremely well in this situation, speed makes up for this terrifying number. +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- Gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 106-125 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO. Sub and play rough not 2hko'ing after poison heal makes this one a lost cause for Mawile.
- Hippowdon: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-420 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO -- 12.5% chance to OHKO, made relevant by putting 28 EVs in speed to outspeed bulky Mawile builds, who have an easier time setting up anyway. I did play rough because it's slower. Despite the near ohko, a sucker punch versus play rough in the case of Hippo's next-turn slack off versus EQ makes this a true 50/50 resulting in the death of either poke, I'm giving it to Hippo since this is in an ideal situation for Mawile in the matchup.
- Landorus-T: +1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 135-159 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Mamoswine: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 396-466 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Mandibuzz: Irrelevant because Mandi cannot do anything to threaten Mawile once in.
- Rotom-W: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO, and just to be complete about things, +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Terrakion: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, made worse for Mawile in the case of subrrakion sets.
- Tyranitar (regular): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 151-178 (44.1 - 52%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

A- Rank
- Breloom: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 198-233 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, made worse via spore.
- Chansey: Not relevant, what the hell can Chansey do?
- Diggersby: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 408-481 (130.7 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Gardevoir (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 467-550 (167.9 - 197.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Gyarados (regular): +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 300-353 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- Heracross (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 146-172 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
- Kyurem-B: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 329-388 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Manaphy: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 329-388 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
- Medicham (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 417-491 (159.7 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Mew: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 277-327 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, more relevant than the sucker punch calc because the only mew set to ever switch in would be the stallbreaker will-o version.
- Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 189-223 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The downside of an Aegislash-less meta is this little thing runs wild.

So, 21 of those 43 pokemon can, when Mawile gets a safe switchin and boost on switchout (which does take a modicum of skill), take a +2 sucker punch and do something. A few of these pokemon would die to a sub on switchin or a focus punch or a fire fang as coverage, but saying it did that would also remove some of the ko's Mawile would get by missing a coverage move or by not SD'ing and being at +2 in the first place, so there are both factors for and against Mawile at play from this list. It's impossible to boil down all matchups, and to say "well Mawile can have this" while subconsciously remembering the advantages Mawile gets from running standard, two things that cannot happen at once, is a logical fallacy.

Additional info in favor of Mawile: With the standard set, a play rough on switchin followed by a sucker punch does impact many of these matchups differently, and should be considered. But SD is what we should test, as it is the reason Mawile can take out multiple pokemon, and is the reason this suspecting even came up.

Back to the point. 21 out of 43 when you find the time to safely boost. If I checked the numbers for Charizard X after a dragon dance, or maybe Sheer Orb Landorus after a calm mind, using all their coverage moves rather than just sucker punch because they have the speed to do so, I would find similar numbers. In faaaact, let's take a short look

Landorus in a similar boost-on-switchout Scenario

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 407-481 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 782-923 (262.4 - 309.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 497-585 (153.8 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 710-837 (233.5 - 275.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 274-324 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (AND 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 265-317 (82.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 203-239 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 863-1016 (238.3 - 280.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 391-461 (109.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-534 (158 - 186.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Irrelevant in Greninja's favor because ice beam and higher speed
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 486-572 (146.3 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 419-494 (108.5 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Latias and Latios: would win that matchup if I was using Sludge Wave, but like with Mawile, looking at the more standard part of coverage moves to be fair.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 250-294 (92.2 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 341-402 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 309-364 (103.6 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 393-463 (114.9 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 387-458 (106.3 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And for shits and giggles: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Out of 20 pokemon, 6 can take a shot, not including coverage moves like sludge wave, and I am being generous and counting this matchup in Mega Gyarados's favor (will not die to psychic, Earth Power or Focus Blast if it had not mega'ed), and Thundurus's favor (faster and cannot ohko but 50% chance to live and strike again), in addition to Lati@s, Greninja, and Char Y.

Also notice that in this situation, prio doesn't entirely matter, the main contenders are Azumarill (81.2 - 96.2% if using Band, will not ohko), Talonflame (80 - 94.6% with Band, same as Zoomy), and of course Mawile (56.2 - 66.2%, won't even kill after hazards)

Now, there's other prio, but it doesn't impact this matchup in the slightest, even Mega Pinsir, who I had a 50% chance to ohko, does a small amount with quick attack after switching in.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 106-126 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Return and Quick Attack can kill, but I'd put this one in Landorus's favor.

6 out of 20 versus 21 out of 43.

Charizard X in a similar boost-on-switchout Scenario

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Azumarill can take a shot and retaliate with a banded play rough that doesn't quite ohko, but might after recoil....what the heck, let's give it to her anyway.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 312-367 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 469-553 (146.5 - 172.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 710-836 (233.5 - 275%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 577-679 (192.3 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 396-466 (132.8 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (and solidly 2hko's unaware variants so that doesn't really change the matchup)
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 1302-1532 (359.6 - 423.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 594-702 (165.9 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 396-466 (138.4 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 178-210 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, counting intimidate on this one.
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 456-540 (118.1 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lati@s: so very dead
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 732-864 (270.1 - 318.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 1288-1516 (374.4 - 440.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO, the deadest
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 378-445 (126.8 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 252-298 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 360-426 (98.9 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO, what thick fat?

Out of 20 pokemon, 3 can take the shot. Hehehe...

In the same case as Landorus, the relevant prio is Mawile (50.6 - 59.7%), Mega Pinsir (30.2 - 35.5%), and Talonflame (72.4 - 85.5% with Band), and all of them do a little less than they do to Lando, plus recoil from Flare Blitz when applicable, balances out relatively.



Both of these pokemon have much better sweeping ratios than Mawile, and when they are played smart, they also get one near-guaranteed kill. Less bulk, no intimidate, more power, don't care about burn, more speed, still amazing typings, there are trade-offs in favor of Mawile and trade-offs in favor of these two. The point I'm making is, if you get such similar results with Mawile as other big smashy pokemon...is it broken at that point or just really damn good? My thoughts are toward the latter.

We're playing with wrecking balls all over the place. I am voting no ban. I won't be offended if the ban passes, but I think this thing can stay, offensive powerhouse or not.
im pretty sure hundreds of people already made the same points its strong it has 678 attack power or 210 base attack either way thats the strongest attack in the game obviously at plus 2 its going to have and easy time sweeping like most sweepers like belly drum azumarill remove the threats then the game is over no need to keep saying and repeasting things its more than likely getting banned if its not already
 
im pretty sure hundreds of people already made the same points its strong it has 678 attack power or 210 base attack either way thats the strongest attack in the game obviously at plus 2 its going to have and easy time sweeping like most sweepers like belly drum azumarill remove the threats then the game is over no need to keep saying and repeasting things its more than likely getting banned if its not already
...did you even read the post you're quoting? He's saying that Mawile is comparable in offensive power to other S rank threats rather than surpassing them, and that the others don't even fear burns like Mawile does.

Though I don't like that the comparisons are against other pokes likely to be suspected, as that really does nothing to help Mawile's case when you're arguing anti-ban.
 
50/50's with sucker punch should not be raised as an issue, considering that 50/50's make up the competitive meta and every good pokemon forces them as often as they can. Also "lol you will-o-wisp the sucker punch, Mawile is easy to fight!" is not something you can do against smart players, who may have anything from a good will-o switchin, a sub Mawile set, or a cleric to which they can get the kill and gladly run to, fixing the "crippled" Mawile.

Thing about Mawile is it does have to rely on sucker punch in situations against faster pokemon, and there's a good few. I think Mawile's ridiculous, but so is Char X and Thundurus, and it should be dealt with. I'm anti-ban, BUT I don't entirely care to say my opinion more than that. The collective of all of us knows more about this metagame than any given one of us. I will provide some data however.

Since a lot of people are talking about the prio, let's give Mawile an ideal scenario, it switches into an attack with mimimal damage, forces them out and does a swords dance. This is ideal for Mawile, and I made some assumptions, but it's safe to say that with full hp Mawile this can and may happen once a match in the hands of a good player. Now, I've heard sucker punch to be the reason for ban from a lot of folks. This might make sense, as a +2 sucker punch kills.....well, let's find out. Here's the OU viability list, in order, and their bulk against a sucker punch.

S Rank
- Azumarill: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-233 (49 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
- Charizard X: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 301-355 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, I'm giving this to Mega Mawile DESPITE the fact that will-o-wisp bulky Char X has this matchup for free, since SD sucker punch does more than either STAB, which cannot react to a will-o-wisp, and spamming play rough while burned will not last long enough versus roost and will-o, in this case Subpunch would still not guaranteed ohko, but do much better. That said, remember that sub/punch would remove the +2 from these other calcs, in addition to some coverage. I'm giving this to Mawile because it beats the offensive set, but it should be noted this isn't in either person's favor depending on set.
- Keldeo: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Landorus: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 359-423 (112.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Thundurus: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 441-519 (147 - 173%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A+ Rank
- Charizard Y: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 404-476 (135.5 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Clefable: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, and with unaware doesn't die to a +2 play rough either.
- Excadrill: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 498-586 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Garchomp: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
- Greninja: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 228-269 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Gyarados (mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 153-180 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
- Heatran: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 313-369 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
- Latias: Lolnope
- Latios: Lolnope
- Pinsir (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 280-330 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Scizor (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 246-290 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Talonflame: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 436-513 (146.3 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Tyranitar (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 116-136 (33.9 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- Venusaur (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (irrelevant because sleep powder, Venusaur will do well in this spot versus SD Mawile)

A Rank
- Bisharp: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 164-194 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (irrelevant in Mawile's favor because Bisharp has barely a 2hko to respond with)
- Dragonite: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 172-202 (53 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Ferrothorn: Doesn't matter because without fire fang or focus punch this is wholly in Ferrothorn's favor. I'm calcing standard right now because it does deal with the most threats, so it'd be a good litmus test of how many threats individual sets take, so this one is not in Mawile's favor.
- Gengar: HAHAHAHA, ded, is what I would say, except that sub-disable and will-o-wisp Gengar sets do extremely well in this situation, speed makes up for this terrifying number. +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- Gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 106-125 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO. Sub and play rough not 2hko'ing after poison heal makes this one a lost cause for Mawile.
- Hippowdon: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-420 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO -- 12.5% chance to OHKO, made relevant by putting 28 EVs in speed to outspeed bulky Mawile builds, who have an easier time setting up anyway. I did play rough because it's slower. Despite the near ohko, a sucker punch versus play rough in the case of Hippo's next-turn slack off versus EQ makes this a true 50/50 resulting in the death of either poke, I'm giving it to Hippo since this is in an ideal situation for Mawile in the matchup.
- Landorus-T: +1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 135-159 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Mamoswine: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 396-466 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Mandibuzz: Irrelevant because Mandi cannot do anything to threaten Mawile once in.
- Rotom-W: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 382-450 (125.6 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO, and just to be complete about things, +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Terrakion: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 179-211 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, made worse for Mawile in the case of subrrakion sets.
- Tyranitar (regular): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 151-178 (44.1 - 52%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO

A- Rank
- Breloom: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 198-233 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, made worse via spore.
- Chansey: Not relevant, what the hell can Chansey do?
- Diggersby: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 408-481 (130.7 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Gardevoir (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 467-550 (167.9 - 197.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Gyarados (regular): +1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 300-353 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- Heracross (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 146-172 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
- Kyurem-B: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 329-388 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Manaphy: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 329-388 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
- Medicham (Mega): +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 417-491 (159.7 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Mew: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 277-327 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, more relevant than the sucker punch calc because the only mew set to ever switch in would be the stallbreaker will-o version.
- Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 189-223 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The downside of an Aegislash-less meta is this little thing runs wild.

So, 21 of those 43 pokemon can, when Mawile gets a safe switchin and boost on switchout (which does take a modicum of skill), take a +2 sucker punch and do something. A few of these pokemon would die to a sub on switchin or a focus punch or a fire fang as coverage, but saying it did that would also remove some of the ko's Mawile would get by missing a coverage move or by not SD'ing and being at +2 in the first place, so there are both factors for and against Mawile at play from this list. It's impossible to boil down all matchups, and to say "well Mawile can have this" while subconsciously remembering the advantages Mawile gets from running standard, two things that cannot happen at once, is a logical fallacy.

Additional info in favor of Mawile: With the standard set, a play rough on switchin followed by a sucker punch does impact many of these matchups differently, and should be considered. But SD is what we should test, as it is the reason Mawile can take out multiple pokemon, and is the reason this suspecting even came up.

Back to the point. 21 out of 43 when you find the time to safely boost. If I checked the numbers for Charizard X after a dragon dance, or maybe Sheer Orb Landorus after a calm mind, using all their coverage moves rather than just sucker punch because they have the speed to do so, I would find similar numbers. In faaaact, let's take a short look

Landorus in a similar boost-on-switchout Scenario

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 407-481 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 782-923 (262.4 - 309.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 497-585 (153.8 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 710-837 (233.5 - 275.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 274-324 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (AND 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 265-317 (82.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 203-239 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 863-1016 (238.3 - 280.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 391-461 (109.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-534 (158 - 186.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Irrelevant in Greninja's favor because ice beam and higher speed
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 486-572 (146.3 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 419-494 (108.5 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Latias and Latios: would win that matchup if I was using Sludge Wave, but like with Mawile, looking at the more standard part of coverage moves to be fair.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 250-294 (92.2 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 341-402 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 309-364 (103.6 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 393-463 (114.9 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 387-458 (106.3 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And for shits and giggles: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 390-463 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Out of 20 pokemon, 6 can take a shot, not including coverage moves like sludge wave, and I am being generous and counting this matchup in Mega Gyarados's favor (will not die to psychic, Earth Power or Focus Blast if it had not mega'ed), and Thundurus's favor (faster and cannot ohko but 50% chance to live and strike again), in addition to Lati@s, Greninja, and Char Y.

Also notice that in this situation, prio doesn't entirely matter, the main contenders are Azumarill (81.2 - 96.2% if using Band, will not ohko), Talonflame (80 - 94.6% with Band, same as Zoomy), and of course Mawile (56.2 - 66.2%, won't even kill after hazards)

Now, there's other prio, but it doesn't impact this matchup in the slightest, even Mega Pinsir, who I had a 50% chance to ohko, does a small amount with quick attack after switching in.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 106-126 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Return and Quick Attack can kill, but I'd put this one in Landorus's favor.

6 out of 20 versus 21 out of 43.

Charizard X in a similar boost-on-switchout Scenario

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, Azumarill can take a shot and retaliate with a banded play rough that doesn't quite ohko, but might after recoil....what the heck, let's give it to her anyway.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 312-367 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 469-553 (146.5 - 172.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 710-836 (233.5 - 275%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 577-679 (192.3 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 396-466 (132.8 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (and solidly 2hko's unaware variants so that doesn't really change the matchup)
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 1302-1532 (359.6 - 423.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 594-702 (165.9 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 396-466 (138.4 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 178-210 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, counting intimidate on this one.
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 456-540 (118.1 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lati@s: so very dead
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 732-864 (270.1 - 318.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 1288-1516 (374.4 - 440.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO, the deadest
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 378-445 (126.8 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 252-298 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 360-426 (98.9 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO, what thick fat?

Out of 20 pokemon, 3 can take the shot. Hehehe...

In the same case as Landorus, the relevant prio is Mawile (50.6 - 59.7%), Mega Pinsir (30.2 - 35.5%), and Talonflame (72.4 - 85.5% with Band), and all of them do a little less than they do to Lando, plus recoil from Flare Blitz when applicable, balances out relatively.



Both of these pokemon have much better sweeping ratios than Mawile, and when they are played smart, they also get one near-guaranteed kill. Less bulk, no intimidate, more power, don't care about burn, more speed, still amazing typings, there are trade-offs in favor of Mawile and trade-offs in favor of these two. The point I'm making is, if you get such similar results with Mawile as other big smashy pokemon...is it broken at that point or just really damn good? My thoughts are toward the latter.

We're playing with wrecking balls all over the place. I am voting no ban. I won't be offended if the ban passes, but I think this thing can stay, offensive powerhouse or not.
The problem i have with this post is why is Mega Mawile sucker punching the likes of Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, or Bisharp just to name a few? All good Mawiles run enough speed to outspeed Azumarill so it mine as well nail it with a +2 Play Rough, which im assuming would be a OHKO. Id also think Mawile would like to tank an Iron Head from Bisharp and then just kill it with a Play Rough as well. As for Mega Venusaur Mawile would rather hit it with Iron Head and if it isnt running Iron Head theres still no reason to sucker punch when its probably going to seed you. Also, lets say for example Im running a set of Play Rough, Iron Head, Sucker Punch, and Swords Dance on my Mega Mawile. Like you said, I come in and force a switch. But if i see a landorus-t on my opponents team, i would certainly go for the play rough and wear it down opposed to a swords dance and then switch out. Then next time I can come in, force a switch, and this time swords dance and kill it with a +1 sucker punch. Thats a much more realistic situation than mega mawile just swords dancing every time only to switch out when my opponent brings in a check like Landorus-T.

Also, why are you comparing Mega Mawile to Landorus and Charizard X? If they were suspected already and stayed in OU that would be fine, but as this hasnt happened but is likely to in the near future there is no reason to compare a potentially broken mon to two other potentially broken mons.
 

Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
One of MMawile's is arguably the ability to force switches and set-up on a good chunk of the meta, and in doing so, it makes sense that pokemon like Bisharp and Azu can be easily dealt with simply by clicking Play Rough, as chances are MMawile has already A) set-up an SD, or B) set-up a sub.The interetsting part is that these pokemon are both dark resists, meaning that they'd be there to stomach +2 Sucker Punches from a weakened MMawile and KO back with it's Stabs, but most of the time MMawile can take a hit and then strike back. Often times after that, teams lack a good counter or check, meaning that MMawile can sweep them up in the instance of SD, or let a teammate take over and finish in the case of the Substitute set. Arguably one of the best type combos in the game, Fairy/Steel provides a massive number of opportunities to switch in and wreck havoc. And it's bulk is very good (including intimidate, still fine without) that even allows it to take some SE attacks and survive to KO back. Mega Mawile itself has checks, but correct usage of it as a teammate rather than a Mega-Luke Skywalker-esque sweeper designed to 6-0 teams, and Mega Mawile being broken becomes a very real thing.

It wasn't meant to 6-0 the team, it was to guarantee that a well built team (hell, sometimes even a shit team works!) can take advantage of it's massive strengths and win.
 
Been lurking about this thread since its inception, and have probably read most if not all of the postings. I'm not going to lie; when I saw that Mega Mawile was getting suspected, I was really sad. I love this thing to death because Mawile was one of my favorite Pokemon back in my pre-competitive days of Gen 3 and I have always wanted it to see use. However, none of you care about that, so I'm going to begin my actual point.

I'm very on the fence about Mega Mawile. I agree with various pro-ban and anti-ban arguments in the thread. What I think is going to help in reaching our conclusion is taking a step back and looking on the metagame as a whole, and analyzing M-Mawile's place within that metagame. I've seen many people on the pro-ban side post a bunch of calcs (many are completely irrelevant), and while calcs can be useful in determining the relative power of M-Mawile, we already know how powerful she is: really freaking powerful. But her monstrous Attack stat alone isn't enough to merit her ban. We all know that she hits hard, but if she hit too hard it would have been very noticeable and she would have been quick-banned a long time ago, along with M-Kanga and M-Gengar. Using calcs is analyzing a very specific situation in where two individual Pokemon come into battle with everything else completely even, which is very rarely the case. At the same time, sweeping statements like "Well, she has Intimidate to come in and set up" is also false since you are broadening a situation that occurs once to the entire battle, which also never happens. This ambiguity as to whether M-Mawile's stats alone merit her ban is the reason why I believe we need to take a step back and analyze everything as a whole before taking a stance on the matter.

But if her Attack alone isn't enough to ban her, what is? I am of the personal opinion that M-Mawile herself is only 50% (if that) of why she is being suspected for being too powerful for OU. The metagame that surrounds M-Mawile gave her everything to succeed. I read a post on this thread that I agree with whole-heartedly: that while M-Mawile herself isn't necessarily "broken", the state of the metagame we have now made her so. So many times in this thread I have read someone say that many of M-Mawile's checks are unreliable due to the very existence of Stealth Rock, causing multiple Pokemon to be necessary in checking her. Bulky Fire-types are quite decent at checking her, as we have all realized, but they are very rarely used due to the nature of the metagame. Her apparent lack of efficient checks and counters is one of the main reasons she's being suspected in the first place, in my opinion. That being said, I don't necessarily find M-Mawile to be overcentralizing. Unlike Aegislash, whose mere existence requires Pokemon like M-Pinsir and Dragonite to run Earthquake to avoid being walled and made useless respectively, I have never once heard the comment "Man, I really need to run X move to beat M-Mawile instead of Y move". Sure, you might need to pack a M-Mawile check on your team, but that hardly counts as being overcentalizing since preparing for the most common threats is a basic part of teambuilding. My definition of being "overcentralizing" is having to account for a singular threat in the metagame using a strategy or Pokemon that wouldn't normally be used, and M-Mawile doesn't fit that bill.

Furthermore, while her typing and stat distribution has its clear weaknesses, it is absolutely fantastic in our metagame. She has a resistance to the aforementioned and ever-present Stealth Rock. She has two weaknesses in Fire and Ground. For the former, just refer to my previous statements. For the latter, it just so happens that it our metagame the most common Ground move is Earthquake, which is a physical attack that M-Mawile can normally stomach due to her high physical bulk. If Earth Power was in equal usage with Earthquake, it could be entirely possible that M-Mawile would be checked by many more things due to her lackluster special defense (not that this means anything). All of this just shows that M-Mawile fit right into this metagame, but perhaps all too well.

If you've gotten this far in the post, you're probably wondering "when is this n00b going to take a stance". I personally don't feel like I'm qualified enough to take a sure-fire stance; I rarely am on Showdown and am most certainly not claiming to be a high-level player. If I had to choose, I would probably say no ban, since when all of the facts are lined up in front of me I just don't see enough evidence to warrant a ban. That being said, I know better than to think this suspect is that black and white, and I know there are people in this thread who know more than I do. I have just seen a lot of posts in this thread that seem to miss the mark of what SHOULD be analyzed in order to determine M-Mawile's "brokenness". Obviously, you can't judge M-Mawile simply by looking at her stat distribution, and I don't think she should be judged by how much a +2 Play Rough does to a Mega Charizard X, since there are so many specifics that go into that calc that using it as justification is near useless. I'm also quite tired of using 50/50s as an argument against her, as 50/50s are caused by literally any Pokemon with Sucker Punch/Pursuit and it's a part of Pokemon.

All in all, and I suppose you could count this as the tl;dr of this post, people are looking way too into specifics. In order to find out if M-Mawile is truly too powerful for OU, we need to get away with all of the damage calcs and 50/50 arguments and stating the exact value of her Attack stat (seriously guys, stop) and start analyzing the metagame AROUND M-Mawile and whether or not the metagame itself is not strong enough to keep her in it or if the metagame would function better without her.

Thanks for reading, everyone. It's my first post so I apologize if I sound naive or if I ramble. I just don't want M-Mawile to be banned unjustly, since I do love it so darn much. n_n
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
Been lurking about this thread since its inception, and have probably read most if not all of the postings. I'm not going to lie; when I saw that Mega Mawile was getting suspected, I was really sad. I love this thing to death because Mawile was one of my favorite Pokemon back in my pre-competitive days of Gen 3 and I have always wanted it to see use. However, none of you care about that, so I'm going to begin my actual point.

I'm very on the fence about Mega Mawile. I agree with various pro-ban and anti-ban arguments in the thread. What I think is going to help in reaching our conclusion is taking a step back and looking on the metagame as a whole, and analyzing M-Mawile's place within that metagame. I've seen many people on the pro-ban side post a bunch of calcs (many are completely irrelevant), and while calcs can be useful in determining the relative power of M-Mawile, we already know how powerful she is: really freaking powerful. But her monstrous Attack stat alone isn't enough to merit her ban. We all know that she hits hard, but if she hit too hard it would have been very noticeable and she would have been quick-banned a long time ago, along with M-Kanga and M-Gengar. Using calcs is analyzing a very specific situation in where two individual Pokemon come into battle with everything else completely even, which is very rarely the case. At the same time, sweeping statements like "Well, she has Intimidate to come in and set up" is also false since you are broadening a situation that occurs once to the entire battle, which also never happens. This ambiguity as to whether M-Mawile's stats alone merit her ban is the reason why I believe we need to take a step back and analyze everything as a whole before taking a stance on the matter.

But if her Attack alone isn't enough to ban her, what is? I am of the personal opinion that M-Mawile herself is only 50% (if that) of why she is being suspected for being too powerful for OU. The metagame that surrounds M-Mawile gave her everything to succeed. I read a post on this thread that I agree with whole-heartedly: that while M-Mawile herself isn't necessarily "broken", the state of the metagame we have now made her so. So many times in this thread I have read someone say that many of M-Mawile's checks are unreliable due to the very existence of Stealth Rock, causing multiple Pokemon to be necessary in checking her. Bulky Fire-types are quite decent at checking her, as we have all realized, but they are very rarely used due to the nature of the metagame. Her apparent lack of efficient checks and counters is one of the main reasons she's being suspected in the first place, in my opinion. That being said, I don't necessarily find M-Mawile to be overcentralizing. Unlike Aegislash, whose mere existence requires Pokemon like M-Pinsir and Dragonite to run Earthquake to avoid being walled and made useless respectively, I have never once heard the comment "Man, I really need to run X move to beat M-Mawile instead of Y move". Sure, you might need to pack a M-Mawile check on your team, but that hardly counts as being overcentalizing since preparing for the most common threats is a basic part of teambuilding. My definition of being "overcentralizing" is having to account for a singular threat in the metagame using a strategy or Pokemon that wouldn't normally be used, and M-Mawile doesn't fit that bill.

Furthermore, while her typing and stat distribution has its clear weaknesses, it is absolutely fantastic in our metagame. She has a resistance to the aforementioned and ever-present Stealth Rock. She has two weaknesses in Fire and Ground. For the former, just refer to my previous statements. For the latter, it just so happens that it our metagame the most common Ground move is Earthquake, which is a physical attack that M-Mawile can normally stomach due to her high physical bulk. If Earth Power was in equal usage with Earthquake, it could be entirely possible that M-Mawile would be checked by many more things due to her lackluster special defense (not that this means anything). All of this just shows that M-Mawile fit right into this metagame, but perhaps all too well.

If you've gotten this far in the post, you're probably wondering "when is this n00b going to take a stance". I personally don't feel like I'm qualified enough to take a sure-fire stance; I rarely am on Showdown and am most certainly not claiming to be a high-level player. If I had to choose, I would probably say no ban, since when all of the facts are lined up in front of me I just don't see enough evidence to warrant a ban. That being said, I know better than to think this suspect is that black and white, and I know there are people in this thread who know more than I do. I have just seen a lot of posts in this thread that seem to miss the mark of what SHOULD be analyzed in order to determine M-Mawile's "brokenness". Obviously, you can't judge M-Mawile simply by looking at her stat distribution, and I don't think she should be judged by how much a +2 Play Rough does to a Mega Charizard X, since there are so many specifics that go into that calc that using it as justification is near useless. I'm also quite tired of using 50/50s as an argument against her, as 50/50s are caused by literally any Pokemon with Sucker Punch/Pursuit and it's a part of Pokemon.

All in all, and I suppose you could count this as the tl;dr of this post, people are looking way too into specifics. In order to find out if M-Mawile is truly too powerful for OU, we need to get away with all of the damage calcs and 50/50 arguments and stating the exact value of her Attack stat (seriously guys, stop) and start analyzing the metagame AROUND M-Mawile and whether or not the metagame itself is not strong enough to keep her in it or if the metagame would function better without her.

Thanks for reading, everyone. It's my first post so I apologize if I sound naive or if I ramble. I just don't want M-Mawile to be banned unjustly, since I do love it so darn much. n_n
As far as the second paragraph goes, I agree that its not overcentralizing and i dont' think anybody has actually made a decent argument saying that mega mawile is overcentralizing, so uh...

But the fourth paragraph is where I want to "correct" you. More specifically:
I'm also quite tired of using 50/50s as an argument against her, as 50/50s are caused by literally any Pokemon with Sucker Punch/Pursuit and it's a part of Pokemon.
You're correct in that every pokemon with sucker punch and an attack technically makes a 50/50, but mega mawile is very different from the rest. Why? Because she's strong. She has more power backing her 50/50s then any other pokemon in the game, and when there's more power backing a 50/50, there's higher consequences for guessing wrong. To relate this back the whole metagame part, the sheer strength she puts behind her 50/50s (bisharp doesn't even come close) is enough that the metagame basically can't handle it. I know you dont need to hear numbers or anything, none of us do at this point, but she's just so goddamn strong that her 50/50s are on a whole other level, enough to affect the entire metagame in a noticeably negative manner.

Yeah, I realize some people are kinda tired of hearing the whole 50/50s argument after the aegislash suspect thread, but mega mawile's 50/50s are just on a whole other level and the kinds of 50/50s that aegislash and mega mawile force just can't be compared. At worst, aegislash just forces a switch against physical attackers that don't carry earthquake; not a lot of them. Mega Mawile's 50/50s are strong enough such that unless your name is Weezing or Arcanine right not supposed to mention them aah lets say defensive char-y, you guess wrong and you're basically screwed. And when I mean screwed I don't mean "oops too bad I lost a mon I can reliably revenge kill it later", I mean "fuck now I lose the game because I lost a coin flip." <-- that right there is exactly what we don't want, so yes, we can definitely say that the 50/50s mega mawile forces are very unhealthy for the metagame.
 
Although I won't be voting, I will share my thoughts.

Mega Mawile is definitely a huge threat. Although it's base 210 attack is "intimidating," she has many problems.

A) Slow: Mega Maw would need more speed for me to think ban. The low speed is probably it's downfall, allowing it to be revenge-killed fairly easily or OHKO'd by a SE hit from a fast mon *cough cough garchomp*. One might argue on "sucker punch" but that is worked around easily, like rotom-w wow-ing it or whatever.

B) It's checks and counters: While Heatran was dubbed as the counter, sub-punch is a thing. but even then, there is the ability infiltraitor, which gets through subs (noivern, I'm looking at you). Bisharp is a good check to any mawile going in because of defiant backfiring intimidate and can outspeed on the first turn.

C) Bad HP: this is the problem with the sub-punch set which "checks heatran". Base 50 is ass and scarftran can check it for it can flamethrower it to death before m-maw sets up a sub. Yeah, Heatran reamins the counter as does any fire type such as talonflame.

D) 4MMS: For anyone who is clueless on the abbreviation, 4MMS is when a pokemon doesn't get perfect coverage due to limited moveslots. This prevents many mons from being viable or broken so it gives some balance in tiers. If mega maw had fire-fang, it can't get rid of bulky waters like slowbro. You get the jist. Certain mons don't suffer it and are threatening since they don't have this syndrome.

So yeah. If I had reqs now and had to vote, I'd go against the ban. Mega-Maw is fine for OU
 
Although I won't be voting, I will share my thoughts.

Mega Mawile is definitely a huge threat. Although it's base 210 attack is "intimidating," she has many problems.

A) Slow: Mega Maw would need more speed for me to think ban. The low speed is probably it's downfall, allowing it to be revenge-killed fairly easily or OHKO'd by a SE hit from a fast mon *cough cough garchomp*. One might argue on "sucker punch" but that is worked around easily, like rotom-w wow-ing it or whatever.

B) It's checks and counters: While Heatran was dubbed as the counter, sub-punch is a thing. but even then, there is the ability infiltraitor, which gets through subs (noivern, I'm looking at you). Bisharp is a good check to any mawile going in because of defiant backfiring intimidate and can outspeed on the first turn.

C) Bad HP: this is the problem with the sub-punch set which "checks heatran". Base 50 is ass and scarftran can check it for it can flamethrower it to death before m-maw sets up a sub. Yeah, Heatran reamins the counter as does any fire type such as talonflame.

D) 4MMS: For anyone who is clueless on the abbreviation, 4MMS is when a pokemon doesn't get perfect coverage due to limited moveslots. This prevents many mons from being viable or broken so it gives some balance in tiers. If mega maw had fire-fang, it can't get rid of bulky waters like slowbro. You get the jist. Certain mons don't suffer it and are threatening since they don't have this syndrome.

So yeah. If I had reqs now and had to vote, I'd go against the ban. Mega-Maw is fine for OU
Thank you so much. Besides, I barely even see anybody use Mawile anyway in OU. People make a big deal over the things in which they don't look past Mega Mawile's flaws. Even then I always see Pokemon on other teams to counter her and inflict status problems on her like the common wil o-wisp. Sub-Punch doesn't work well for Mawile's sake. Usually, she's used as a late game cleaner.

Also sp. attacks like Earth Power from Heatran, kills her as well. People always look at the threats she's making but fail to realize her flaws that's holding her back. To me, she's kind of struggling in OU from my perspective viewpoint.
 

Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
Although I won't be voting, I will share my thoughts.

Mega Mawile is definitely a huge threat. Although it's base 210 attack is "intimidating," she has many problems.

A) Slow: Mega Maw would need more speed for me to think ban. The low speed is probably it's downfall, allowing it to be revenge-killed fairly easily or OHKO'd by a SE hit from a fast mon *cough cough garchomp*. One might argue on "sucker punch" but that is worked around easily, like rotom-w wow-ing it or whatever.

B) It's checks and counters: While Heatran was dubbed as the counter, sub-punch is a thing. but even then, there is the ability infiltraitor, which gets through subs (noivern, I'm looking at you). Bisharp is a good check to any mawile going in because of defiant backfiring intimidate and can outspeed on the first turn.

C) Bad HP: this is the problem with the sub-punch set which "checks heatran". Base 50 is ass and scarftran can check it for it can flamethrower it to death before m-maw sets up a sub. Yeah, Heatran reamins the counter as does any fire type such as talonflame.

D) 4MMS: For anyone who is clueless on the abbreviation, 4MMS is when a pokemon doesn't get perfect coverage due to limited moveslots. This prevents many mons from being viable or broken so it gives some balance in tiers. If mega maw had fire-fang, it can't get rid of bulky waters like slowbro. You get the jist. Certain mons don't suffer it and are threatening since they don't have this syndrome.

So yeah. If I had reqs now and had to vote, I'd go against the ban. Mega-Maw is fine for OU
A) While it does rely on sucker punch, the sheer force of it is crazy, and has behind a sub or an SD, it KOes virtually everything that doesn't resist it. It is slow, but do not simply say that speed is the reason why it isn't broken.

B) Everything has checks and counters, the problem is MMawile can tailor it's moveset to beat them. Sub-Punch beats Heatran, and please don't talk about infiltrator, there is nothing that gets it in OU that is common.

C) It's HP does counteract its defenses, but your example is ass. Scarftran can't check it behind a sub, and MMawile sets up on a large portion of the meta, and the SD set KOes with Sucker after rocks if the scarf has been revealed.

D)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nuff said

Thank you so much. Besides, I barely even see anybody use Mawile anyway in OU. People make a big deal over the things in which they don't look past Mega Mawile's flaws. Even then I always see Pokemon on other teams to counter her and inflict status problems on her like the common wil o-wisp. Sub-Punch doesn't work well for Mawile's sake. Usually, she's used as a late game cleaner.

Also sp. attacks like Earth Power from Heatran, kills her as well. People always look at the threats she's making but fail to realize her flaws that's holding her back. To me, she's kind of struggling in OU from my perspective viewpoint.
No one keeps mawile in on wisps, SubPunch is ridiculously good on Mega Mawile, it hits hard, great typing, solid options.

Also, please don't use "She's killed by SpA attacks", as Mega Mawile has a chance to survive Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump IIRC (Assuming full health and max HP Evs)

The above is simply replies, forgive me if I didn't do a good job.
 
You're correct in that every pokemon with sucker punch and an attack technically makes a 50/50, but mega mawile is very different from the rest. Why? Because she's strong. She has more power backing her 50/50s then any other pokemon in the game, and when there's more power backing a 50/50, there's higher consequences for guessing wrong. To relate this back the whole metagame part, the sheer strength she puts behind her 50/50s (bisharp doesn't even come close) is enough that the metagame basically can't handle it. I know you dont need to hear numbers or anything, none of us do at this point, but she's just so goddamn strong that her 50/50s are on a whole other level, enough to affect the entire metagame in a noticeably negative manner.

Yeah, I realize some people are kinda tired of hearing the whole 50/50s argument after the aegislash suspect thread, but mega mawile's 50/50s are just on a whole other level and the kinds of 50/50s that aegislash and mega mawile force just can't be compared. At worst, aegislash just forces a switch against physical attackers that don't carry earthquake; not a lot of them. Mega Mawile's 50/50s are strong enough such that unless your name is Weezing or Arcanine right not supposed to mention them aah lets say defensive char-y, you guess wrong and you're basically screwed. And when I mean screwed I don't mean "oops too bad I lost a mon I can reliably revenge kill it later", I mean "fuck now I lose the game because I lost a coin flip." <-- that right there is exactly what we don't want, so yes, we can definitely say that the 50/50s mega mawile forces are very unhealthy for the metagame.
I do see your point, and I do realize I may have unintentionally downplayed the power of M-Mawile's Sucker Punch. I do get that the strength of her Sucker Punches are on another level, but that has more to do with her sheer strength as opposed to the 50/50s themselves. I feel like the 50/50s themselves can be played around; besides, prediction is at the core of the game, is it not? Now, I'm not saying that everyone can be completely clairvoyant, but by the sheer definition of 50/50 the opponent using Mawile has the same chance of failing and losing their M-Mawile (and quite possibly their win condition as well). And as far as a "coin flip" goes, that would simply imply that you have absolutely no control over the outcome as to whether you die or she dies, but there are ways of gaining an advantage, such as paying attention to an opponent's overall playstyle, etc. Again, I'm not banking on the player to make a correct decision every time, but at the same time I'm not counting on the opponent to make a correct decision every time either. And besides, if you are at the point where one 50/50 loses you the game, I doubt you were in a very good position to begin with, be it your team has a bad match-up or whether you are just pushed into a corner.

Now, I do want to mention this because I don't want you to get the wrong impression. I do believe that M-Mawile's Sucker Punches could very well have an adverse effect on the metagame. However, that isn't because of her 50/50s, it's because of her sheer Attack power and strength, which is an entirely different argument. If M-Mawile's Sucker Punches are too strong and are unhealthy for the metagame, it's because M-Mawile herself is too strong, not because of the 50/50 phenomenon.

I hope that cleared up any confusion about my post. Yeah, it might just be about semantics at the end of the day, but if people legitimately had problems with 50/50s, Sucker Punch would just be banned by now.
 

Nix_Hex

Uangaana kasuttortunga!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Haunter I finally got a job so I'm taking myself of of probation; please hand me back my ou and showdown mods. Love you.

As for this thread, here is some basic stuff that you should know; if you can't understand and accept them, then you don't deserve to post in this or any other suspect thread and I will see to it that those posts get deleted. This can be sort of an addendum to post 423.

1. A pokemon's usage Stat in a tier has no bearing on its status of brokenness. The ladder, which is considered by the elite to be the poorest representation of skill in (serious) competitive Pokemon, is not the entire metagame. There exists a tournament scene that some see as more important to Smogon than the ladder - indeed it is the highest level of competitive play. The sample size of tournaments is too far too small to use as a statistical base so tiering is done by our ladders. This applied mostly in swagplay which wad the stupidest and most brainless strategy in existence that a monkey could be trained - yet it's usage was very low. Who cares, good riddance.

2. A pokemon's performance in ubers has no bearing in its suspect status in ou. It matters not that 252/252 impish Groudon takes lol damage from mawile and can 2hko back. Groudon has no bearing on OU because he is not in ou.

If you cannot get past those two very basic principles then you don't understand how things work around here. Lurk more, stop making a fool of yourself.

Thanks.

PS haunter I'm serious.
 
Last edited:

TheEnder

a petal in the wind
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
So, I got to reqs some days ago, and I've taken some time writing up my thougts on Mawile and whether is broken or not:


So as you all know already, Mawile has an immense attack stat due to an amazing ability, coupled with a good offensive and defesnive typing, allowing it to come in on and threaten a lot of threats in the curreent metagame. It has nothing competitively viable that switches safely into it, without risking getting hit by by an unexpected coverage move (ie. Heatran and Ferrothorn) or straight up getting OHKOed/2HKOed. Just like Aegislash, it has different sets that decide what is capable of taking it on, which you may not get to know before you sacked your Heatran to a Focus Punch. It all comes down to team matchup, just like with Aegislash, and it's a guessing game when you try to predict what it's going to do. For stall it's a nuisance, for balance it's a nuisance and for offense it's a um... what's the word?? o yeah, nuisance.

Mawile is one of those low risk high reward pokes, where you almost guarantee decent matchup with it, as it comes in and wreaks a huge part of the metagame. On higher ladder (1825 stats iirc) Heatran and Landorus-T's usage has scyrocketed, both being two of the "safer" checks to Mawile. As Aldaron pointed out in the last suspect test, we want to get rid of those pokes who have a very low cost to use and also require too much specialization to deal with. At the moment, this is a pretty accurate description of Mawile; with little to no support it can plow through every team thats unprepared for it. On offense, you are forced to run revengekillers able to take a +2 Sucker Punch, a Substitute user, or a random Will-O-Wisp user to be able to take it on. Keldeo, Sub Landorus, Excadrill and Medicham, and WoW Gengar and WoW Scarf Heatran have all been used to take it on. The specialization required to deal with Mawile isn't much lower than what was the case for Deoxys-S and Aegislash, which was two of the most centralising pokemon in the tier.

In tour play, Mawile is frequently used, and it was the most used mega in WCOP with ~20% usage. Acting as a all-in-one poke, being able to wallbreak, stallbreak and sweep with Swords Dance and sucker Punch, all in one set, I'm not suprised it saw that much usage. Being able to come in something that doesn't threaten it, then take on it's supposed counter without getting crippled, is what makes Mawile so contralizing. Let's say your answer to Mawile is Landorus-T. You switch in, and take 12% from SR, then ~35% from a Play Rough. Then Mawile simply switches out to something that handles Landorus-T, as your opponents team is built around Maw. Then, the next time Mawile sees the opportunity to come in, you dont have a switchin as Landorus-T is whittled. Having taken out your "counter", it can proceed to do more work to your team, and when it goes down, it has opened holes for cleaners to end the game.

tl;dr Mawile has no counters, and forces every team to run an answer to it, to not risk being plowed through by the little monster. It's centralization has risen Landorus-T and Heatran's usage a lot, showing how much of a threat it is. Lastly, forcing every playstyle to run the same pokes to take it on is what I'd call unhealthy for the metagame; BAN
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
OUPL Champion
I do see your point, and I do realize I may have unintentionally downplayed the power of M-Mawile's Sucker Punch. I do get that the strength of her Sucker Punches are on another level, but that has more to do with her sheer strength as opposed to the 50/50s themselves. I feel like the 50/50s themselves can be played around; besides, prediction is at the core of the game, is it not? Now, I'm not saying that everyone can be completely clairvoyant, but by the sheer definition of 50/50 the opponent using Mawile has the same chance of failing and losing their M-Mawile (and quite possibly their win condition as well). And as far as a "coin flip" goes, that would simply imply that you have absolutely no control over the outcome as to whether you die or she dies, but there are ways of gaining an advantage, such as paying attention to an opponent's overall playstyle, etc. Again, I'm not banking on the player to make a correct decision every time, but at the same time I'm not counting on the opponent to make a correct decision every time either. And besides, if you are at the point where one 50/50 loses you the game, I doubt you were in a very good position to begin with, be it your team has a bad match-up or whether you are just pushed into a corner.

Now, I do want to mention this because I don't want you to get the wrong impression. I do believe that M-Mawile's Sucker Punches could very well have an adverse effect on the metagame. However, that isn't because of her 50/50s, it's because of her sheer Attack power and strength, which is an entirely different argument. If M-Mawile's Sucker Punches are too strong and are unhealthy for the metagame, it's because M-Mawile herself is too strong, not because of the 50/50 phenomenon.

I hope that cleared up any confusion about my post. Yeah, it might just be about semantics at the end of the day, but if people legitimately had problems with 50/50s, Sucker Punch would just be banned by now.
See there's one thing that sets me off a little and its this little part right here:
I feel like the 50/50s themselves can be played around; besides, prediction is at the core of the game, is it not?
It isn't.
A 50/50 is not a prediction, its exactly what it sounds like; a coin flip.
Lets take a mega mawile that got to +2 by setting up on your AV azumarill (ez pz) and you send in a Swords dance/rocks/outrage/eq (common lead set) to try and revenge it (rocks r up, sash is broken)

Now what do you do? What is the correct play? If you EQ, mega mawile could just predict that and sucker punch, and after rocks a +2 sucker punch cleanly OHKO's 4/0 garchomp. If you use SD, Mega Mawile could also go for Play Rough expecting that! Try to switching into something else? We'll see how well it takes a +2 Play Rough. There is literally no right play.
I could predict Mega Mawile to expect Eq, and therefore SD to avoid the sucker.
The opponent could predict me to predict him and go for play rough instead.
I could also then predict my opponent to predict me to predict him and go straight for the sucker.
Meanwhile, my opponent could still pre- you get the point.

Finally, as to how you wrap up your argument, I still disagree. Its the combination of her ability to cause 50/50s with sucker punch AND the insane power behind it to punish you when you guess wrong is what makes her broken. If the problem was mega mawile being too strong, we would've banned stronger pokemon a while back. The problem lies in sucker punch first, her power second, not the other way around.

As for your last sentence, we never banned sucker punch because we had never come across such a powerful user of it THE GOD MEGA KANGASKHAN ok that one was obvious for different reasons but still. Smogon as a whole is not too open to banning moves in general either, really only getting rid of the stupid ones like OHKO moves. Basically, none of the sucker punchers thus far had the actual power to subject the entire metagame (or too much of it to be healthy) to their mindgames, and mega mawile is the first, which is why we wouldn't have even considered doing anything with sucker punch.
 
See there's one thing that sets me off a little and its this little part right here:

It isn't.
A 50/50 is not a prediction, its exactly what it sounds like; a coin flip.
Lets take a mega mawile that got to +2 by setting up on your AV azumarill (ez pz) and you send in a Swords dance/rocks/outrage/eq (common lead set) to try and revenge it (rocks r up, sash is broken)

Now what do you do? What is the correct play? If you EQ, mega mawile could just predict that and sucker punch, and after rocks a +2 sucker punch cleanly OHKO's 4/0 garchomp. If you use SD, Mega Mawile could also go for Play Rough expecting that! Try to switching into something else? We'll see how well it takes a +2 Play Rough. There is literally no right play.
I could predict Mega Mawile to expect Eq, and therefore SD to avoid the sucker.
The opponent could predict me to predict him and go for play rough instead.
I could also then predict my opponent to predict me to predict him and go straight for the sucker.
Meanwhile, my opponent could still pre- you get the point.

Finally, as to how you wrap up your argument, I still disagree. Its the combination of her ability to cause 50/50s with sucker punch AND the insane power behind it to punish you when you guess wrong is what makes her broken. If the problem was mega mawile being too strong, we would've banned stronger pokemon a while back. The problem lies in sucker punch first, her power second, not the other way around.

As for your last sentence, we never banned sucker punch because we had never come across such a powerful user of it THE GOD MEGA KANGASKHAN ok that one was obvious for different reasons but still. Smogon as a whole is not too open to banning moves in general either, really only getting rid of the stupid ones like OHKO moves. Basically, none of the sucker punchers thus far had the actual power to subject the entire metagame (or too much of it to be healthy) to their mindgames, and mega mawile is the first, which is why we wouldn't have even considered doing anything with sucker punch.
I wasn't legitimately implying that Sucker Punch should be banned; that would be moronic. n_n It was supposed to be more of an exaggeration.

Either way, that's really all I have to reply to, since I feel like the rest is something we seem to agree to disagree on. Of course, it hardly matters anyway; we both agree she has a lot of power behind her Punches, and whether it's the 50/50 or the power behind it or the combination of the two that is broken is somewhat irrelevant.

All that matters is that the power does exist and that the existence of strong (albeit situational) priority to cover her middling Speed seems to be one of the main reasons why people find M-Mawile too strong. In my own opinion, I find this to be the largest reason for me to get behind the banning of M-Mawile. Her lack of checks partially comes from the fact that she can outspeed and most of the time straight-out kill frailer Pokemon who try to revenge kill her, leaving only the bulkier checks relevant.

The more I post in this thread, the more I could possibly support a ban. I'm not quite fully there yet, but I'm starting to get a better grasp of the facts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top