Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Aragorn the King]

I dont know if this is an appropiate time, but I was too late to fight keldeo and azumarill getting S rank, I mean that seems like a joke to me. Can someone point out a good argument for either of these getting S rank, because I cant find one and would like to see what I should be addressing. I typically think of S rank pokemon as mons I could see getting suspect tested, and keldeo and azumarill are not even close to being suspect worthy while every other S rank mon is....so yeah.

With the banning of Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, Genesect, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Aegislash, and the imminent banning of Mega Mawile, the S rank has transitioned from being the rank of the ban-worthy mons to the rank of the really really really good mons, which is a good thing and a trait of a healthy metagame. Pokemon in the S rank should be able to perform many roles well, or at least one role superbly. These Pokemon will nearly always put in worth during a game, despite having checks and counters. Azumarill fits perfectly within this definition, since it has two sets that are superb now and one set that's still pretty good. Despite having checks and counters, depending on its set, it will always do work during a game. The little support it needs is mitigated by a) how easy the support is to give, and b) how much of a reward using Azu well will give. I think it's on par with Landorus, a mon highly deserving of its rank. Keldeo is a bit different, since it only has one superb set. However, it has developed around five different more niche sets to beat up its checks and counters, something Azumarill actually struggles with. It is overall a worse Pokemon than Azumarill, due to its weakness to Flying and possession of only one amazing set, but I still think it belongs where it is.

 

[theV8man]

They're probably not broken, but they're fantastic. Lemme argue for the aquarabbit at least. Azumarill is just awesome, and I say this grudgingly because most of the Pokemon I love are scared of it. Offense teams cower in fear of powerful CB and AV sets, which have priority. I'm not sold on Sitrus Belly Drum but some people really seem to like it and it is scary if it gets to set up. It has godly bulk and great typing for something that hits so hard, and its Speed isn't as much of an issue when you get a stupidly powerful Aqua Jet. In a meta full of ExcaTar and Bird Spam, Azu shines pretty brightly. It's also really easy to slap on teams and doesn't need a lot of support. Definite S rank for me, and I can't believe it didn't come sooner, but I'm glad it did.

Also, for a more serious nomination: I think Pinsir needs a raise back to S, too. Seriously, now that it can run CC over EQ it just got a LOT scarier. Rotom? Loses a ton of HP to CC. Skarm? Can't switch in anymore for the same reason. Even Tran isn't gonna want to switch in because it's gonna take a load of damage from CC. This thing is fast, hits like a truck, and gets powerful priority to boot, and Flying/Fighting coverage is amazing. Sure you absolutely need to remove rocks but that doesn't stop Thundy and Zard X. Bird spam is a thing despite SR being everywhere, and one reason is because this thing is so damn good.

As much as I love Mega Pinsir, I can't see it back in S. I don't think CC is good because 1. You're not KOing Heatran 2. CC isn't the solution to skarm as it can Whirlwind/BraveBird for the KO 3. As you use it you become very vulnerable to priority moves. Yes, weakness to stealth rocks doesn't automatically count you out of S rank, but Mega Pinsir's typing is, excuse my French, shit.
Don't get me wrong, this thing outspeeds Garchomp, hits harder than BD Azumarill, AND has priority, but doesn't shine as much as the rest of S rank.

 

[procrastinat]

As much as I love Mega Pinsir, I can't see it back in S. I don't think CC is good because 1. You're not KOing Heatran 2. CC isn't the solution to skarm as it can Whirlwind/BraveBird for the KO 3. As you use it you become very vulnerable to priority moves. Yes, weakness to stealth rocks doesn't automatically count you out of S rank, but Mega Pinsir's typing is, excuse my French, shit.
Don't get me wrong, this thing outspeeds Garchomp, hits harder than BD Azumarill, AND has priority, but doesn't shine as much as the rest of S rank.

Agreed, pinsir actually has the bulk to live many priority attacks that aren't from talonflame if it has switched into SR once before it evolves, including bullet punch, aqua jet, and CB Dragonite's extremespeed. Close Combat is great and all, but it compromises your bulk heavily after just one use, making pinsir much easier to revenge kill, and return is capable of 2HKOing both rotom and skarmory at +2 anyway.

The fact that pinsir can more freely use close combat is not enough to move it to S rank.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

With the banning of Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, Genesect, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Aegislash, and the imminent banning of Mega Mawile, the S rank has transitioned from being the rank of the ban-worthy mons to the rank of the really really really good mons, which is a good thing and a trait of a healthy metagame. Pokemon in the S rank should be able to perform many roles well, or at least one role superbly. These Pokemon will nearly always put in worth during a game, despite having checks and counters. Azumarill fits perfectly within this definition, since it has two sets that are superb now and one set that's still pretty good. Despite having checks and counters, depending on its set, it will always do work during a game. The little support it needs is mitigated by a) how easy the support is to give, and b) how much of a reward using Azu well will give. I think it's on par with Landorus, a mon highly deserving of its rank. Keldeo is a bit different, since it only has one superb set. However, it has developed around five different more niche sets to beat up its checks and counters, something Azumarill actually struggles with. It is overall a worse Pokemon than Azumarill, due to its weakness to Flying and possession of only one amazing set, but I still think it belongs where it is.

thank you actually, I was comparing them to previous mons that were S rank,and that isn't the right mindset. I just am not used to the idea we might actually be in a healthy meta lol. But even still I don't think keldeo is s rank, it's revenge killed by a good amount of mons on offense and can be walled by several common stall mons. It's a very solid A+ mon but that's it.

 

[MilkyWay]

I think Tyranitar should stay in A. The most common argument I'm seeing for those who wish to move it up is that it's very versatile, it can be a rock setter, pursuit trapper, birdspam check, sand setter, choice user, or a combination of these. However, I dont think any of these sets are good enough to justify an A+ rank. Two of the three main birds commonly run close combat to destroy Tyranitar and will-o-wisp on Talonflame is becoming more and more common opposed to it's choice band set. As a dedicated sand setter many people are turning to Hippowdon, who doesnt stack as many weaknesses with the tiers premiere sand rusher, Excadrill. Hippowdon also has stealth rock, a much better defensive typing, reliable recovery, and solid defensive stats as well. While Tyranitar is still a good rock setter who can also perform another role at the same time, imo there are much better rocks setters who dont suffer from poor speed and a terrible defensive typing. As for the band set, i believe that it's one of Tyranitar's worst viable sets. While Tyranitar does have a high attack and decent coverage, its speed is extremely underwhelming and its defensive typing still sucks. Most importantly it loses it's ability to perform many roles in one set, as it can't run smooth rock or stealth rock on a band set and is even easier for birds to beat it opposed to its other sets. Tyranitar's choice scarf set might be one of it's best sets, as it is more reliable against birds and doesnt suffer as much from its poor speed, however it still has many flaws that hold it back from A+ in my opinion. For starters, Tyranitar is still rather slow for a choice scarf user (it fails to outspeed Greninja even with max speed and a choice scarf) and is hit super effectively by many forms of priority. It again loses the ability to support the team to it's fullest potential and many of it's moves suck to be locked into, such as pursuit and fire blast. While it arguably surpassed Bisharp as the tiers best pursuit user after the banning of Aegislash (i dont agree with this but many people do i guess) i still feel as though thats not enough to put it in A+ for the reasons already mentioned.

Now i know what many of you are thinking, that while none of it's sets individually are good enough to justify an A+ ranking, all of them together should. To those people I'd like to remind you that Tyranitar cant realistically run all of these sets at once and imo these sets combined are what push it to A instead of A-. To further clarify what I mean by this is that if Tyranitar could only run one set, let's say it's scarf set, then it would only be A- in my book. It's other sets are what push it to A in my mind.

Finally I just want to point out that many of the arguments for bringing Tyranitar back to A+ dont really make any points. They just complain about the drop and say it came out of the blue (i actually recall seeing a few people agreeing with Tyranitar for A and nobody really argued with it until after the update) and because the majority agrees with them Tyranitar should go back to A+. If these people really want Tyranitar to go back to A+ they should post a detailed explanation of why other than just complaining about the decision.

 

[Clone]

I think Tyranitar should stay in A. The most common argument I'm seeing for those who wish to move it up is that it's very versatile, it can be a rock setter, pursuit trapper, birdspam check, sand setter, choice user, or a combination of these. However, I dont think any of these sets are good enough to justify an A+ rank. Two of the three main birds commonly run close combat to destroy Tyranitar and will-o-wisp on Talonflame is becoming more and more common opposed to it's choice band set. As a dedicated sand setter many people are turning to Hippowdon, who doesnt stack as many weaknesses with the tiers premiere sand rusher, Excadrill. Hippowdon also has stealth rock, a much better defensive typing, reliable recovery, and solid defensive stats as well. While Tyranitar is still a good rock setter who can also perform another role at the same time, imo there are much better rocks setters who dont suffer from poor speed and a terrible defensive typing. As for the band set, i believe that it's one of Tyranitar's worst viable sets. While Tyranitar does have a high attack and decent coverage, its speed is extremely underwhelming and its defensive typing still sucks. Most importantly it loses it's ability to perform many roles in one set, as it can't run smooth rock or stealth rock on a band set and is even easier for birds to beat it opposed to its other sets. Tyranitar's choice scarf set might be one of it's best sets, as it is more reliable against birds and doesnt suffer as much from its poor speed, however it still has many flaws that hold it back from A+ in my opinion. For starters, Tyranitar is still rather slow for a choice scarf user (it fails to outspeed Greninja even with max speed and a choice scarf) and is hit super effectively by many forms of priority. It again loses the ability to support the team to it's fullest potential and many of it's moves suck to be locked into, such as pursuit and fire blast. While it arguably surpassed Bisharp as the tiers best pursuit user after the banning of Aegislash (i dont agree with this but many people do i guess) i still feel as though thats not enough to put it in A+ for the reasons already mentioned.

Now i know what many of you are thinking, that while none of it's sets individually are good enough to justify an A+ ranking, all of them together should. To those people I'd like to remind you that Tyranitar cant realistically run all of these sets at once and imo these sets combined are what push it to A instead of A-. To further clarify what I mean by this is that if Tyranitar could only run one set, let's say it's scarf set, then it would only be A- in my book. It's other sets are what push it to A in my mind.

Finally I just want to point out that many of the arguments for bringing Tyranitar back to A+ dont really make any points. They just complain about the drop and say it came out of the blue (i actually recall seeing a few people agreeing with Tyranitar for A and nobody really argued with it until after the update) and because the majority agrees with them Tyranitar should go back to A+. If these people really want Tyranitar to go back to A+ they should post a detailed explanation of why other than just complaining about the decision.

I'm only replying to the last bit because a lot of people explained what makes TTar an A+ rank. Some were more detailed than others, but they weren't all complaints. Jukain made one here that got a ton of support. He wasn't the only one either. There's like 12 other posts by different people saying why they think TTar deserves to go back to A+.

heres my post on the matter if you care to read it

 

[AsynchronousIO]

As much as I love Mega Pinsir, I can't see it back in S. I don't think CC is good because 1. You're not KOing Heatran 2. CC isn't the solution to skarm as it can Whirlwind/BraveBird for the KO 3. As you use it you become very vulnerable to priority moves. Yes, weakness to stealth rocks doesn't automatically count you out of S rank, but Mega Pinsir's typing is, excuse my French, shit.
Don't get me wrong, this thing outspeeds Garchomp, hits harder than BD Azumarill, AND has priority, but doesn't shine as much as the rest of S rank.

1. Heatran is easy to put into KO range from CC, because it has no form of recovery outside Lefties (unless you wanna RestTalk, lol). Furthermore, +2 CC is a clean KO, and so is CC + Return
2. You 2HKO Skarm more easily with +2 CC and Skarm isn't gonna be able to Roost on you because it's lost too much HP and Roost will let CC OHKO (+2 Return is less certain) 3. Except even CB Azu isn't going to OHKO you with Aqua Jet (and CB Azu is kinda exploitable), while +2 Return is a clean KO. Mega Scizor is in the same boat. Sure, they deal upwards of 50%, but seriously, if you're gonna use Pinsir, get the rocks off first. Pinsir isn't usually prio weak save for Talonflame (which will be a problem whether you run CC or not) so I don't see this being an issue.

In addition, Pinsir also unconditionally crushes Tyranitar, which was once a solid check to Bird Spam, with CC. You also don't have to worry about Air Balloon Exca, Magnezone, and Zongers, all good Pokemon on the rise, getting free switches into you. EQ is nice, but it is far more exploitable than CC, and is usually a bit weaker except for some targets (note: Heatran) that are dented hard by CC anyway.

Flying/Ground coverage is nice, but face it, Flying/Fighting coverage is godly. Pinsir doesn't have to run CC, admittedly, but the fact that it can more realistically choose to run CC over EQ just made many more of its checks cry and allows it to break through things more easily. That alone just made the task of checking Pinsir a lot more daunting, because many things that could check Pinsir once now need to tread carefully or risk getting flattened by CC. Maybe running CC over EQ alone might not push it to S rank, but the fact that it is a much more realistic option with Aegis gone is a pretty big deal. Oh, speaking of Aegis being gone, Latios, the premier defogger for offensive teams, got a hell of a lot better, and you got Starmie too as a reliable spin option. Pinsir is a huge meta-defining force right now, and even when you know what it's gonna do, it still puts a lot of pressure because it does its one set so well. Sure, it needs support, but Defog/Spin support is a given for many teams and is a bit easier now that Aegis is gone and Bisharp is falling out of favor. Simply put, things got so much better for Pinsir with the Aegis ban, and it came from a top-tier threat to a total force to reckon with.

 

[AM]

I personally think Ttar has good enough utility to be brought back to A+. Everything has been pretty much been explained better by others but I would like to note that Excadrill (who is A+ still cause of TTar's support being a factor) + Ttar is the definition of sand offense, something that not many playstyles, especially offense, wants to be trying to go up against. The fact that Ttars combination of general utility and sand allows Excadrill to check stuff that it would have normally lost to due to a lack of speed. Sand is just really useful for residual damage as well and stopping things like Char Y from mauling teams with the benefits of the sun, slows down weather teams in general as well which very few mons can actually do. I never understood the argument of "Oh well it can catch this on the switch" as a legitimate argument for showing if something is viable or not. It goes both ways and so many factors come in to play. It might not be the pinnacle of an A+ mon, but it's A+ in my eyes.

Disagreeing with Pinsir moving up to S for now. I still think that it has the same issues as before in a broad aspect such as x4 SR damage among other problems and CC only mitigated some of the issues but not enough to push it up to S. Besides the fact that most teams have a solid answer to M-Pinsir anyways even after the fact it uses CC now isn't convincing me. I mean I could see the move up in the future but not at this current time.

If we're still on this discussion keep Zard X in S rank. I personally think it's not as great as it once was but it's clearly obvious that S rank is starting to become a club of very good stuff and not necessarily wicked op stuff, which Zard X I believe falls under the former in the current meta.

Edit: On an unrelated note I think it's time for the OP to get a new image for the obvious reason that I don't think needs to be stated.

 

[Jukain]

lemme explain keldeo

keldeo fits the definition of an s rank perfectly. it is a powerful, dominant, meta-defining force that is the posterchild for the powerful water-types that exist in ou. it requires little-to-no support, as it can cripple its counters/wear them down/lure and kill them on its own, not to mention things like amoonguss, venusaur, latis, keld . weighed against pokemon like landorus and charizard x, it requires significantly less support. it excels in one role (its powerful choice specs set), but can fill multiple other roles effectively, whether as an all-purpose revenge killer for dd mons and greninja (choice scarf), or as a good sweeper (subcm), or as a lure for walls/faster mons (subendeavor salac). in a nutshell, a powerful, defining, low-cost/high reward mon.

 

[theV8man]

1. Heatran is easy to put into KO range from CC, because it has no form of recovery outside Lefties (unless you wanna RestTalk, lol). Furthermore, +2 CC is a clean KO, and so is CC + Return
2. You 2HKO Skarm more easily with +2 CC and Skarm isn't gonna be able to Roost on you because it's lost too much HP and Roost will let CC OHKO (+2 Return is less certain) 3. Except even CB Azu isn't going to OHKO you with Aqua Jet (and CB Azu is kinda exploitable), while +2 Return is a clean KO. Mega Scizor is in the same boat. Sure, they deal upwards of 50%, but seriously, if you're gonna use Pinsir, get the rocks off first. Pinsir isn't usually prio weak save for Talonflame (which will be a problem whether you run CC or not) so I don't see this being an issue.

In addition, Pinsir also unconditionally crushes Tyranitar, which was once a solid check to Bird Spam, with CC. You also don't have to worry about Air Balloon Exca, Magnezone, and Zongers, all good Pokemon on the rise, getting free switches into you. EQ is nice, but it is far more exploitable than CC, and is usually a bit weaker except for some targets (note: Heatran) that are dented hard by CC anyway.

Flying/Ground coverage is nice, but face it, Flying/Fighting coverage is godly. Pinsir doesn't have to run CC, admittedly, but the fact that it can more realistically choose to run CC over EQ just made many more of its checks cry and allows it to break through things more easily. That alone just made the task of checking Pinsir a lot more daunting, because many things that could check Pinsir once now need to tread carefully or risk getting flattened by CC. Maybe running CC over EQ alone might not push it to S rank, but the fact that it is a much more realistic option with Aegis gone is a pretty big deal. Oh, speaking of Aegis being gone, Latios, the premier defogger for offensive teams, got a hell of a lot better, and you got Starmie too as a reliable spin option. Pinsir is a huge meta-defining force right now, and even when you know what it's gonna do, it still puts a lot of pressure because it does its one set so well. Sure, it needs support, but Defog/Spin support is a given for many teams and is a bit easier now that Aegis is gone and Bisharp is falling out of favor. Simply put, things got so much better for Pinsir with the Aegis ban, and it came from a top-tier threat to a total force to reckon with.

1. I guess CC is ok for handling Heatran, although Earthquake is more reliable for this.
2. Skarmory is gonna switch in as you use SD, and then if it's running Brave Bird/Whirlwind it can easily KO/phaze out out so you might need to switch into hazards. A situation where Skarm switches in on your 2+ CC so you can 2HKO (this 2HKO isn't even guaranteed) is never really gonna happen...and a smart player wouldn't roost lol
3. The defense drops from CC are an issue though...
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 102-121 (37.6 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 153-181 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After rocks, you're getting KO'd by pretty much any form of strong priority, whether it be ice shard, bullet punch, extremespeed, sucker punch. Pinsir's physical bulk allows it to take a priority move after rocks, and CC compromises this.

The main advantage I see to using CC is beating Tyranitar, otherwise I'd rather run Earthquake.

You're right that with Aegislash gone, Latis and Starmie are much more viable. But this is a huge double-edged sword, because while these two Pokemon help keep hazards off, they are also good Pinsir checks.

Pinsir may have gotten better, but I still can't see it in S rank.

 

[Synchronation]

Tyranitar back to A+:
Why was this back in A again? It has so many good sets, it's a very reliable check to birdspam and mandatory for sand-offense. Being able to fullfill so many important roles it is definitely a A+ Pokemon, others already explained it, no need to add anything.

Pinsir should stay in A+:
It can use CC now, but that doesn't make him S. It still needs Skarmory and Rotom-W removed or weakened enough and its only slightly stronger than a not effective Return. It can now reliably kill Tyranitar, but doesn't scare out Heatran anymore (assuming it is full health). The defense-drops make it easier to revenge-kill (Bullet-Punch from Scizor or Aqua Jet from Azumarill for example), so it still has its downside. Mega-Pinsir is a great and strong mon, but still needs the same support, therefor A+.

Keldeo for S rank:
I think it should stay there, it fits the description perfectly. It has a few hardstops, but despite that it still does its job very good and is a pain to face. Water/Fighting is not the best coverage anymore and being weak to birdspam is a downside, but it fullfills its role in every situation, checks like Greninja and Talonflame cannot really switch in safely and hardcounters can be weakened with the right coverage moves. It is not weak to Stealth Rocks, has many switch in opportunities thanks to its acceptable bulk, being very predictable (most of the time it is just Choice specs and still annoying) and STILL very useful makes him to a perfect S-rank. It should stay there.

Doublade for C- or C:
After a few more battles I realized it is definitely more than just a niche-Poke and deserves to be ranked in the C-rank. SD is still a good cleaning set for mid- and late-game, I even tested a Pursuit-trapper set and it works just perfect. It can come in in common Pokemon (Mega-Pinsir, Medicham, Heracross and Lati@s for example) and either deal damage with Gyroball or just weaken the target with Pursuit. Excellent Pursuit-trapper with amazing defensive typing, good coverage, acceptable strength and a lot of switch-in opportunities. It still needs a good amount of team support, but that makes it worth being in C-rank. Doublade for C- or C.

Tentacruel for D-rank:
I still think this Pokemon should be ranked. Good spinner (even better in rain-teams), can lay out Toxic spikes or hit with a 100% accuracy Toxic, having great special bulk and access to Scald (its physical defense is still pretty low...). It is able to hardcounter Keldeo thanks to its typing and can give Mega-Venusaur trouble thanks to its great ability. I talked about it once and I want to bring it up again, Tentacruel for D-rank.

Side-note:
-If I click on Mega-Heracross I get to Gyarados.

 

[Farpafraf]

I dont know if this is an appropiate time, but I was too late to fight keldeo and azumarill getting S rank, I mean that seems like a joke to me. Can someone point out a good argument for either of these getting S rank, because I cant find one and would like to see what I should be addressing. I typically think of S rank pokemon as mons I could see getting suspect tested, and keldeo and azumarill are not even close to being suspect worthy while every other S rank mon is....so yeah.

Because Azumarill hits like a truck and with aegislash gone it's very difficult to switch on him plus he has (very) good bulk and don't forget a STAB priority attack.

 

[Srn]

1. I guess CC is ok for handling Heatran, although Earthquake is more reliable for this.
2. Skarmory is gonna switch in as you use SD, and then if it's running Brave Bird/Whirlwind it can easily KO/phaze out out so you might need to switch into hazards. A situation where Skarm switches in on your 2+ CC so you can 2HKO (this 2HKO isn't even guaranteed) is never really gonna happen...and a smart player wouldn't roost lol
3. The defense drops from CC are an issue though...
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 102-121 (37.6 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 153-181 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After rocks, you're getting KO'd by pretty much any form of strong priority, whether it be ice shard, bullet punch, extremespeed, sucker punch. Pinsir's physical bulk allows it to take a priority move after rocks, and CC compromises this.

The main advantage I see to using CC is beating Tyranitar, otherwise I'd rather run Earthquake.

You're right that with Aegislash gone, Latis and Starmie are much more viable. But this is a huge double-edged sword, because while these two Pokemon help keep hazards off, they are also good Pinsir checks.

Pinsir may have gotten better, but I still can't see it in S rank.

1. 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Good enough imo :I
Not like tran is gonna stay that healthy late game anyways.

2. Thing is, if skarm switches in on SD it has to be well above half to take a hit:
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 171-202 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Besides, magnezone is like the number 1 partner to mega pinsir right now so I wouldn't really count on skarm as a stop to it in practice.

3. I mean you do have your own priority to kill things with ya know, the only priority the defense drops affect are Brave bird (which murders you regardless) and Extremespeed; I'd say the ability to damage rotom-w way more definitely makes up for that. That's the main advantage of using CC imho.

 

[theV8man]

1. 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Good enough imo :I
Not like tran is gonna stay that healthy late game anyways.

2. Thing is, if skarm switches in on SD it has to be well above half to take a hit:
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 171-202 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Besides, magnezone is like the number 1 partner to mega pinsir right now so I wouldn't really count on skarm as a stop to it in practice.

3. I mean you do have your own priority to kill things with ya know, the only priority the defense drops affect are Brave bird (which murders you regardless) and Extremespeed; I'd say the ability to damage rotom-w way more definitely makes up for that. That's the main advantage of using CC imho.

Pinsir is weak to stealth rock, has bad typing/not so great bulk, finds it very hard to find setup opportunities, and is stopped dead in it's tracks by Skarmory. You can't slap Pinsir on your team and expect it to do great because for it to play like an S rank Pokemon it needs trapping/hazard support. I remember way back when Pinsir dropped down to A+. I fought hard to get it back to S, but now I realize it doesn't belong there, even if you're more free to use CC. Other S rank mons need zero/little support to do their jobs, Pinsir isn't like this.

 

[WebBowser]

Just a quick semantics thing with the OP, I think the wording for A rank should be changed to thus:

"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated when compared to their positive traits."

I like compensated more then overlooked because one does not simply overlook a 4X SR weakness (e.g. talonflame, a solid A rank mon). When you put talonflame or any other A rank mon onto your team, you need to consider their weaknesses and have a game plan on how to deal with them. This is not overlooking their weaknesses, this is compensating for them, and I think that more accurately describes the decision making that goes on when someone adds any given A rank mon to their team.

I know this may seem kinda petty, but I feel like it's worth pointing out.

 

[alexwolf]

Just a quick semantics thing with the OP, I think the wording for A rank should be changed to thus:

"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated when compared to their positive traits."

I like compensated more then overlooked because one does not simply overlook a 4X SR weakness (e.g. talonflame, a solid A rank mon). When you put talonflame or any other A rank mon onto your team, you need to consider their weaknesses and have a game plan on how to deal with them. This is not overlooking their weaknesses, this is compensating for them, and I think that more accurately describes the decision making that goes on when someone adds any given A rank mon to their team.

I know this may seem kinda petty, but I feel like it's worth pointing out.

Done.

Also, fixed Mega Heracross's link.

 

[henry]

Charizard-y for A: Still don't agree with Charizard-Y being put into A+. It simply requires too much team support. Putting Char-y on your team essentially means that your next two slots need to be a pursuit trapper in things like TTar or bisharp, as well as reliable hazard removal in the likes of Latias or Excadrill in order to be successful. With Aegislash banned and Mawile most likely next (unfortunately), Char-y's best check( lati@s) will be even more prevalent in the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

To be honest, Charizard-y barely fits the description of an A pokemon, if at all. Looking at the other pokemon ranked A+ in viability, not a single one requires support from two other slots like Charizard-y. Many in fact need little to no support, and pokemon like clefable, greninja, Garchomp etc. often fill the last slot of a team simply because they are so versatile and require little support. Char-y is the polar opposite.

100 base speed is mediocre, and priority the metagame certainly isn't helping it either.

 

[pj]

Charizard-y for A/A-: Still don't agree with Charizard-Y being put into A+. It simply requires too much team support. Putting Char-y on your team essentially means that your next two slots need to be a pursuit trapper in things like TTar or bisharp, as well as reliable hazard removal in the likes of Latias or Excadrill in order to be successful. With Aegislash banned and Mawile most likely next (unfortunately), Char-y's best check( lati@s) will be even more prevalent in the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

To be honest, Charizard-y barely fits the description of an A- pokemon, if at all. Looking at the other pokemon ranked A+ in viability, not a single one requires support from two other slots like Charizard-y. Many in fact need little to no support, and pokemon like clefable, greninja, Garchomp etc. often fill the last slot of a team simply because they are so versatile and require little support. Char-y is the polar opposite.

100 base speed is mediocre, and priority the metagame certainly isn't helping it either.

Hi,
I think Charizard Y is doing fine in A+ has it is good special sweeper and its good to kill many setter like ferrothorn and Skarmary etc... it can can also use Sun has its advantage and use Good moves like solar beam for rock or water and many other types with its special attacking Stat and its Decent speed it can almost kill any Pokemon in This Gen. with sunny day fire moves get to rose and can kill many Neutral types and it can resist water moves using Sunny day.

 

[theV8man]

Hi,
I think Charizard Y is doing fine in A+ has it is good special sweeper and its good to kill many setter like ferrothorn and Skarmary etc... it can can also use Sun has its advantage and use Good moves like solar beam for rock or water and many other types with its special attacking Stat and its Decent speed it can almost kill any Pokemon in This Gen. with sunny day fire moves get to rose and can kill many Neutral types and it can resist water moves using Sunny day.

I'm gonna have to agree with am pretty bad here. If you want a wallbreaker, you can either go with Lando-i, or you can go with Char-Y, who is slower, has a rock problem, and can't even beat the most common special wall, Chansey. The only advantage it has (not considering "unpredictability") is that it's harder to switch into. I get that you can have flaws if you're an A+ rank mon, but compared to Pokemon like Garchomp or the Latis this thing just needs so much more support and can't even fulfill its main role to the maximum.
It's outclassed as a special wallbreaker, and as a fire type in general by Heatran/Talonflame. Charizard Y for A/A-. Damn thing cost me a game cause it halved my azumarill's game-winning aqua jet...

 

[procrastinat]

Charizard-y for A/A-: Still don't agree with Charizard-Y being put into A+. It simply requires too much team support. Putting Char-y on your team essentially means that your next two slots need to be a pursuit trapper in things like TTar or bisharp, as well as reliable hazard removal in the likes of Latias or Excadrill in order to be successful. With Aegislash banned and Mawile most likely next (unfortunately), Char-y's best check( lati@s) will be even more prevalent in the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

To be honest, Charizard-y barely fits the description of an A- pokemon, if at all. Looking at the other pokemon ranked A+ in viability, not a single one requires support from two other slots like Charizard-y. Many in fact need little to no support, and pokemon like clefable, greninja, Garchomp etc. often fill the last slot of a team simply because they are so versatile and require little support. Char-y is the polar opposite.

100 base speed is mediocre, and priority the metagame certainly isn't helping it either.

You are aware that both Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir are A+ too right? Both need defog/spin support to even get in, like Zard, and both need their hard counters gone to do anything at all, does this mean their not A+ material? Of course not. The reward they exert far overshadows the support they need, and the same is true for Zard-Y. It's offensive set is still very effective at breaking down teams, and it's defensive set does have a lot of merit too, being able to check both Mega Mawile and Landorus-I, as well as other threats like mega-scizor, and even checking keldeo.

The only priority that really scares Zard-Y is talonflame's Brave Bird, and if you look at S rank, you will find keldeo, brave bird didn't stop that.

100 speed is not what it used to be, I'll give you that. But zard is supposed to come in, wreck something, and get out. 100 speed is more than enough to allow it to do just that, and it's bulk isn't terrible either.

Zard-Y just got to A+, and it's ranking was discussed beforehand, and deemed worthy to hold it not 2 pages ago.

Keep Zard-Y in A+.

 

[Rhaegar]

Looks like a lot has changed in the rankings since the last time I saw them. Highly improved IMO :].
Just going to quickly suggest a few things

Mew from A- to A: Mew's stallbreaker set is a pain for any playstyle to face and single handedly dismantles any stall which does not consist of a Charizard. It completely shuts down defensive mons by denying them use of hazards, status, and recovery. It beats most offensive mons by having great bulk and being able to heal off almost any special hit while knocking off Life Orbs. HP investment paired with good defensive typing allows it to not get 2hkoed by most physical nukes if it burns them after the first hit. It runs a great defensive spread too if required and can check Medicham with it. Overall a great mon that always puts in work regardless of matchup.

Mandibuzz from A to A-/B+: Mandibuzz is really not that great anymore. It was already on the decline even before Aegi was banned because Gliscor surpassed it as an Aegi check. Due to the lack of threat level posed by Mandi, the momentum is easily obtained by the opponent when Mandi uses Defog with a simple switch. It also loses a fourth of it's health when it comes in and just ends up getting forced out. This is easily repeated because rocks are just too easy to set and defogging with Mandi comes with consequence which opponents are glad to take advantage of. Apart from this, it is quite useless against Mawile, Azumarill, and Mega Tyranitar and just gives them free turns which is not very acceptable for a physical wall in this meta.

Garchomp from A+ to A: Garchomp is good, it has different sets which it can make use of and also keep the opponent guessing until the reveal. But it's just that guessing the set wrong doesn't cause much consequence. There are quite a few things which check all of Garchomp's sets and using Garchomp in general is full of gambles and 50-50s due to the nature of it's STABs. The same applies with the Choice Scarf set which though good for revenge killing +1 sweepers, is risky to use in general especially early to mid game since both it's STABs have common types which are immune to them which leads to the 50-50s again. I'm not sure if too many people will agree with this one but just mentioning my opinion anyway. Also Bisharp was moved down which is okay, but I don't think Garchomp should be above Bisharp who is the best Knock Off user in the game, has the strongest priority, and plays a vital role in Pursuit cores.

 

[theV8man]

You are aware that both Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir are A+ too right? Both need defog/spin support to even get in, like Zard, and both need their hard counters gone to do anything at all, does this mean their not A+ material? Of course not. The reward they exert far overshadows the support they need, and the same is true for Zard-Y. It's offensive set is still very effective at breaking down teams, and it's defensive set does have a lot of merit too, being able to check both Mega Mawile and Landorus-I, as well as other threats like mega-scizor, and even checking keldeo.

The only priority that really scares Zard-Y is talonflame's Brave Bird, and if you look at S rank, you will find keldeo, brave bird didn't stop that.

100 speed is not what it used to be, I'll give you that. But zard is supposed to come in, wreck something, and get out. 100 speed is more than enough to allow it to do just that, and it's bulk isn't terrible either.

Zard-Y just got to A+, and it's ranking was discussed beforehand, and deemed worthy to hold it not 2 pages ago.

Keep Zard-Y in A+.

You make good points. While some other mons in A+ also need quite a bit of support, this is compensated for because once those pokemon do get their support, they play amazingly. Talonflame is the best revenge killer in OU, and without rocks on the field it can come in again and again at the opponent's misery. Pinsir is the greatest SD sweeper in OU, who's mix of power, priority and coverage dominates. But if you keep rocks off for Zard-Y, you get a special wallbreaker that's overshadowed by the likes of Lando-i and Keldeo. I actually don't think the defensive set deserves much merit, because defensive Pokemon are meant to switch in on powerful attacks. Having to keep rocks off the field to check a few threats isn't that rewarding imo. Charizard's regular set can be used to check Scizor/Keldeo (kinda) anyway...
If I wanted a Pokemon that is reasonably fast that switches in, wrecks something, then switches out, why not Staraptor? It's only counter, Skarmory is easier to trap/take care of than Chansey, and you're only losing 25% health to rocks with every switch in.

 

[Jukain]

Looks like a lot has changed in the rankings since the last time I saw them. Highly improved IMO :].
Just going to quickly suggest a few things

Mew from A- to A: Mew's stallbreaker set is a pain for any playstyle to face and single handedly dismantles any stall which does not consist of a Charizard. It completely shuts down defensive mons by denying them use of hazards, status, and recovery. It beats most offensive mons by having great bulk and being able to heal off almost any special hit while knocking off Life Orbs. HP investment paired with good defensive typing allows it to not get 2hkoed by most physical nukes if it burns them after the first hit. It runs a great defensive spread too if required and can check Medicham with it. Overall a great mon that always puts in work regardless of matchup.

Mandibuzz from A to A-/B+: Mandibuzz is really not that great anymore. It was already on the decline even before Aegi was banned because Gliscor surpassed it as an Aegi check. Due to the lack of threat level posed by Mandi, the momentum is easily obtained by the opponent when Mandi uses Defog with a simple switch. It also loses a fourth of it's health when it comes in and just ends up getting forced out. This is easily repeated because rocks are just too easy to set and defogging with Mandi comes with consequence which opponents are glad to take advantage of. Apart from this, it is quite useless against Mawile, Azumarill, and Mega Tyranitar and just gives them free turns which is not very acceptable for a physical wall in this meta.

Garchomp from A+ to A: Garchomp is good, it has different sets which it can make use of and also keep the opponent guessing until the reveal. But it's just that guessing the set wrong doesn't cause much consequence. There are quite a few things which check all of Garchomp's sets and using Garchomp in general is full of gambles and 50-50s due to the nature of it's STABs. The same applies with the Choice Scarf set which though good for revenge killing +1 sweepers, is risky to use in general especially early to mid game since both it's STABs have common types which are immune to them which leads to the 50-50s again. I'm not sure if too many people will agree with this one but just mentioning my opinion anyway. Also Bisharp was moved down which is okay, but I don't think Garchomp should be above Bisharp who is the best Knock Off user in the game, has the strongest priority, and plays a vital role in Pursuit cores.

I agree with the other two, but I don't think Garchomp should move down. Almost every metagame shift this generation I've started to feel like Garchomp is declining, and then I make some nice team with it and start using it again, and it continues to succeed. Garchomp is truly an excellent Pokemon. It is a solid lead rocks setter, as it can often get rocks and a kill before it dies. If it runs Fire Blast, the most popular Defoggers (Skarmory, Lati@s) and both primary OU-viable spinners (Balloon Excadrill, Starmie) cannot remove SR on it, which is excellent. Its Choice Scarf set is a large threat to basically every offensive team. It can be kind of a guessing game, but far in the favor of the Garchomp user as if they predict wrong, the worse that happens is they're forced out, but if you predict wrong, you lose a Pokemon. Its STAB combination is really that great. Furthermore, its Speed tier and attacks make it an effective revenge killer to common Dragon Dance sweepers and many faster Pokemon, for example it is a pretty cool Thundurus check for offense. It can even pack Stealth Rock if needed, which serves as an excellent bluff to boot, or run Fire Blast to 2HKO Skarmory. Great bulk means it's pretty much impossible to kill with any priority attack, too. It survives Sash Mamo's Ice Shard ffs. It has a lot of utility and threat level to provide as a Pokemon. There are few real surefire answers to it. Just a solid Pokemon that really shouldn't be moving down any time soon.

Charizard-y for A/A-: Still don't agree with Charizard-Y being put into A+. It simply requires too much team support. Putting Char-y on your team essentially means that your next two slots need to be a pursuit trapper in things like TTar or bisharp, as well as reliable hazard removal in the likes of Latias or Excadrill in order to be successful. With Aegislash banned and Mawile most likely next (unfortunately), Char-y's best check( lati@s) will be even more prevalent in the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

To be honest, Charizard-y barely fits the description of an A- pokemon, if at all. Looking at the other pokemon ranked A+ in viability, not a single one requires support from two other slots like Charizard-y. Many in fact need little to no support, and pokemon like clefable, greninja, Garchomp etc. often fill the last slot of a team simply because they are so versatile and require little support. Char-y is the polar opposite.

100 base speed is mediocre, and priority the metagame certainly isn't helping it either.

Pursuit and Defog/spin support really isn't that much to ask for when you think about it. One of the most common pairs, Tyranitar + Excadrill can provide both of these forms of support. Plus, it's not like other Pokemon don't require this much support. Look at a Pokemon like Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X. These Pokemon are sweepers which require plenty of support to work on a team (hazards gone, all those answers removed...yea). Yet, nobody's calling for them to be dropped. Landorus-I does require less support than Charizard Y, but that would be why it's S Rank. In fact to the person who brought up Landorus and Keldeo, both of them are S Rank. So what bearing does that have on Charizard Y being A+ Rank? You can't compare them, they're such fundamentally different Pokemon with different weaknesses that can deal with different threats and pose a different threat to opposing teams. Staraptor is much, much, much frailer than Mega Charizard Y. It's easier to wear down by its nature. Generally, it's much more difficult to allow it to pose a consistent threat throughout the game, which Mega Charizard Y can easily provide. I think moving it down is kind of insane, honestly, given its lethality in the current metagame.

 

[theV8man]

I brought up Lando-i and Keldeo because they play the same role as Charizard Y. However, unlike Charizard Y, they don't need hazard support, they outspeed all base 100's, they can break all common walls, aren't on a 5 turn timer, and they don't take up that mega slot. Charizard needs hazard support and even then, even after you give it that support it can't even beat Chansey. I understand they're S rank but Charizard, who is imo a worse alternative is only one rank below, A+. Char-Y is overshadowed by the S rank wallbreakers on so many levels that I think it should be a couple ranks below them :/.

Oh look, Mega-Garde is a special wallbreaker in A- that doesn't need hazard removal, and beats Chansey.

Now let's compare it to other A+ rank mons. When you give Pinsir support it's the most terrifying SD sweeper in the metagame, and only gets reliably stopped by 1 common poke. Give Char-Y more or less the same support and you get a third rate special wallbreaker that gets switched on by Dragonite, the Latis, blobs... Both of these Pokemon eat teams for breakfast, but Pinsir has greater speed, can set up, has priority, andwallbreaks as well as Char-Y considering it also gets stopped by one common mon. What I'm trying to say is you get more bang for your buck by using Pinsir.

Based off my battling experience/the points above I've never seen Char-Y as an A+ pokemon.

 

[Salemance]

You also forget main reason Char Y was nominated to go A+ to begin with as the founding of its latest Defensive set or what have you. Being one of the better Mega Maw counters and all if I recall correctly.