Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Ok,so i'll say a bit of my opinions,i'm a bit lame so sorry if i am seriously wrong.
Heatran
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A+---->A Rank

Heatran doesn't deserve the A+ Rank imo.It is threatened out by a lot of top threats like azumarill,keldeo,landorus and excadrill while pokes that heatran walls have some way to threaten it(charizard x has earthquake,thundurus runs focus blast and m-mawile has focus punch).The metagame just has so much pokemon to threaten out heatran and i'm not sure if it deserves the A+Rank.

Heatran's brilliant defensive typing makes it a fantastic Pokémon in new OU. It's able to switch in on any Latios or Latias variant lacking Surf or to a lesser extent HP Fighting, threatens physical attackers with a Lava Plume burn and hardwalls Clefable. The double resistance to Fairy-type moves, a trait unique to Heatran, makes it one of the best Dragon-type partners in the tier. Additionally, tts ability to easily spread burns with Lava Plume on defensive variants makes it a great partner for set-up attackers like Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados.

As for the S-Rankers:
- Thundurus-I can Focus Blast it, but due to its frailty it can't stomach a Fire Blast from offensive variants at all and takes a good deal from Lava Plume;
- Mega Charizard X is walled unless it runs Earthquake, while Earth Power 2HKOes non-defensive Zard X;
- Keldeo and Azumarill beat Heatran, but a well-predicted Flash Cannon can deal large damage to non-AV Azumarill;
- Mega Mawile can't switch in at all in fear of the burn and its Fire-type weakness, while Heatran doubly resists both ofits STABs.

It's mainly its capacity to counter Fairy-types and being really easy to fit on teams thanks to its typing (mainly the infamous VenuTran cores with an additional Water-type) that make it into a fantastic Pokémon in the OU metagame. Heatran deserves to stay A+.
 
Don't agree with the Heatran criticism that's been popping up lately. This thing is one of the few straight up Talonflame counters, has an amazing typing, and can also check mawiles who aren't running Focus Punch, and a good check to non-EQ Charizard Y. Heatran also runs a lot of sets extremely effectively. Seriously, have you run Life Orb Sub Toxic Heatran? That thing is godlike. Choice Scarf is an excellent Scarf user, who doesn't have a difficult time switching in, and Choice Specs is extremely underrated.

In short: Heatran is an extremely bulky pokemon who can fulfill a large number of roles thanks to his vast movepool and excellent stats, while maintaining good offensive pressure at the same time. Heatran should stay A+
 
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Honestly I don't really see how Mawile leaving would make Heatran any worse, if anything, that would benefit it since, let's face it, Will-O-Wisp is required on Heatran atm, I mean even the scarf set often runs it. This is becuase Heatran is one of the best, if not the best anwser to the SD set, however it simply loses to it if it lacks Wisp. Once MMaw is gone, the defensive set will be free to drop it for Toxic, which is just superior to Wisp on it outside of beating Mawile. The Air Baloon set will be less reluctant to drop Wisp for Flash Cannon, Stone Edge, or even HP Ice, though Wisp will still be a very good option on it.

If and when Mawilite is banned, Heatran will actually be a lot freer to run what it wants, and therefore will become a more reliable answer to the likes of Talonflame, Latios, and Clefable.

Also, those in favor of dropping Heatran seem to be only looking as Heatran as a defensive mon and ignoring the wide variety of sets it's able to run. The Scarf set in particular is a fantastic lure, giving the middle finger to most of its usual switchins (Both Landos get roasted, Greninja is cleaned by Earth Power as well as Overheat after a little prior damage, and Garchomp and Keldeo take 40% from Overheat and can only switch in once.)
 
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My personal opinion on Heatran, varies. At times it seems like an A+ at others just an A. But, I believe that it mostly functions as an A+ mon. Base 130 Sp. Atk is fantastic for a Pokemon with such good bulk. Not to mention that it has the offensive and supportive move pool, to have a good amount of versatility.

But what I think makes Heatran A+ is the fact that, preparing for it is mandatory. If your Mega Gardevoir isn't carrying Focus Blast/HP Ground then Heatran comes in, walls you, and gets a hecka strong hit off, or get some rocks up. The fact that HP Ground would even be used on MGarde is a testament to how influential Heatran is.

Dealing with Heatran is also difficult, even after you find out the set. This is due to all of the options Heatran has to screw stuff over. Want to switch your Garchomp in? You better hope Heatran ain't packing WoW. How about switching in your own Heatran, on a Heatran that you already found out was specially defensive? Heatran could still potentially smack you with an Earth Power. Point being, even if you manage to figure out the set, you haven't figured out what is necessarily safe to switch in.

Throw in great synergy with top tier Pokemon like Groot MegaVenu, and AV Azu. And that is an A+ non for sure.
 
My personal opinion on Heatran, varies. At times it seems like an A+ at others just an A. But, I believe that it mostly functions as an A+ mon. Base 130 Sp. Atk is fantastic for a Pokemon with such good bulk. Not to mention that it has the offensive and supportive move pool, to have a good amount of versatility.

But what I think makes Heatran A+ is the fact that, preparing for it is mandatory. If your Mega Gardevoir isn't carrying Focus Blast/HP Ground then Heatran comes in, walls you, and gets a hecka strong hit off, or get some rocks up. The fact that HP Ground would even be used on MGarde is a testament to how influential Heatran is.

Dealing with Heatran is also difficult, even after you find out the set. This is due to all of the options Heatran has to screw stuff over. Want to switch your Garchomp in? You better hope Heatran ain't packing WoW. How about switching in your own Heatran, on a Heatran that you already found out was specially defensive? Heatran could still potentially smack you with an Earth Power. Point being, even if you manage to figure out the set, you haven't figured out what is necessarily safe to switch in.

Throw in great synergy with top tier Pokemon like Groot MegaVenu, and AV Azu. And that is an A+ non for sure.
Regarding Mega Gardevoir: Focus Blast and HP Ground have the same base power on Heatran (Focus Blast = 120*2 = 240; HP Ground is 60*4 = 240). Currently it's a move generally not worth running, as Fairy/Fighting/Psychic already has good coverage and without Focus Blast, it has more trouble against Tyranitar, especially Mega Tyranitar with its added special bulk. Moreover, Air Balloon Heatran shits all over Mega Gardevoir, as it has to waste a turn using a weaker move, while Focus Blast either removes the Balloon or outright OHKOes Heatran anyway. Literally the only advantage HP Ground has is hitting Heatran more reliably, virtually nothing else.

That said, I do completely agree with Heatran staying in A+, as I've expressed previously. It's climbing back to the peak of usage and is still rising to regain its title of best Steel-type in OU.
 
I actually didn't even consider that, thank you Kyuzeth. I was just going off of the fact that I've seen some HP Ground variants before, and I also agree that Heatran could be the best OU steel type, assuming MegaMaw gets banned.
 
Regarding Mega Gardevoir: Focus Blast and HP Ground have the same base power on Heatran (Focus Blast = 120*2 = 240; HP Ground is 60*4 = 240). Currently it's a move generally not worth running, as Fairy/Fighting/Psychic already has good coverage and without Focus Blast, it has more trouble against Tyranitar, especially Mega Tyranitar with its added special bulk. Moreover, Air Balloon Heatran shits all over Mega Gardevoir, as it has to waste a turn using a weaker move, while Focus Blast either removes the Balloon or outright OHKOes Heatran anyway. Literally the only advantage HP Ground has is hitting Heatran more reliably, virtually nothing else.

That said, I do completely agree with Heatran staying in A+, as I've expressed previously. It's climbing back to the peak of usage and is still rising to regain its title of best Steel-type in OU.

Didn't realize she had that much trouble with T-Tar considering the Pixelate Hyper Voice but huh, lesson learned then (considering that its only a 2hko and and sliver of a chance to OHKO with rocks if ttar s at max hp) but I usually still like her odds gainst him.

EDIT: Im actually being serious btw, I don't use her at all.
 
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Regarding Mega Gardevoir: Focus Blast and HP Ground have the same base power on Heatran (Focus Blast = 120*2 = 240; HP Ground is 60*4 = 240).

I just would like to point out that these numbers can't just be multiplied this way.
"Base Power" is just an approximation, since the Damage Formula is a bit more complex than that.

Hidden Power Ground does hit a little bit harder.
But yeah, the damage difference does not justify the use of HP Ground.

252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%)
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 238-280 (61.6 - 72.5%)
 
But what I think makes Heatran A+ is the fact that, preparing for it is mandatory. If your Mega Gardevoir isn't carrying Focus Blast/HP Ground then Heatran comes in, walls you, and gets a hecka strong hit off, or get some rocks up. The fact that HP Ground would even be used on MGarde is a testament to how influential Heatran is.
This statement sounds fallacious no matter how I look at it. Mega Gardevoir running HP Ground for Heatran doesn't necessarily mean Heatran is influential, it only means that Heatran can wall it otherwise. Quite the contrary, the fact that just about everything else with problem with Steels choose to run HP Fire over Ground shows that it is significantly less influential compared to other steels that HP Fire hit, or that about everything else has not much problem with Heatran. (And things running Focus Blast is not just for Heatran, but Ttar and Ferrothorn too)

Having said that, I have other reasons for why Heatran does not belong to A+. It does its job well sometimes but it is extremely inconsistent based on the opponent's team. To be brutallly honest, many of the things that Heatran are supposed to beat are getting the boot to Ubers, and for others, they are still capable of beating Heatran without losing significantly on coverage.

Even though it is sometimes hard to switch something into Heatran, but being hard to switch in on doesn't necessitate A+. SDef Heatran is pretty analogous to Rotom-W in being hard to switch into, and being hard to switch into doesn't imply A+.
 
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[21:42] <@cbb> wtf sogeking is crazy
[21:42] <@cbb> nigga said heatran for A or A-
[21:42] <@cbb> really LOL

Heatran should not be dropping any time soon. It was an ass Aegi check anyways, not like that's relevant, and it gets better with Maw gone because it isn't shoehorned into running Will-O-Wisp and can actually run Toxic like it oh so wants to...but can't because otherwise lol, Maw sweeps you. Let's get that out of the way first.

Heatran handles a number of top relevant threats in the metagame at this point. With Lati@s frequently running HP Fire, Heatran has become significantly more in-demand as a more reliable answer. With the recent surge in Lati@s and boost in their viability after the Aegi ban/incoming Mawile ban, this is enormous. Talonflame, especially SD variants, has risen in popularity again, and what counters it? Heatran. Clefable, another very popular Pokemon right now -- Heatran is almost the only fatmon beating it. Ferro, everywhere, can't touch Tran. Puts enormous pressure on Skarm if played well, and many teams have issues getting rid of its rocks. It spreads burn and Toxic to all kinds of opposing Pokemon. Mega Venusaur, common af, so easily taken advantage of. Thing can even check CC Pinsir at full HP..
This statement sounds fallacious no matter how I look at it. Mega Gardevoir running HP Ground for Heatran doesn't necessarily mean Heatran is influential, it only means that Heatran can wall it otherwise. Quite the contrary, the fact that just about everything else with problem with Steels choose to run HP Fire over Ground shows that it is significantly less influential compared to other steels that HP Fire hit, or that about everything else has not much problem with Heatran. (And things running Focus Blast is not just for Heatran, but Ttar and Ferrothorn too)

Having said that, I have other reasons for why Heatran does not belong to A+. It does its job well sometimes but it is extremely inconsistent based on the opponent's team. To be brutallly honest, many of the things that Heatran are supposed to beat are getting the boot to Ubers, and for others, they are still capable of beating Heatran without losing significantly on coverage.

Even though it is sometimes hard to switch something into Heatran, but being hard to switch in on doesn't necessitate A+. SDef Heatran is pretty analogous to Rotom-W in being hard to switch into, and being hard to switch into doesn't imply A+.
No, Heatran is far more difficult to switch into. Nothing appreciates coming into possible burn or Toxic. Heatran can wear down opposing teams fast and, at every switch-in, tends to cripple something and put pressure on the opposing team. It can even force Megacham into nasty coinflip situations with Protect.

And all I just did was talk about defensive Tran. Offensive Tran is just a threat. Scarf is insane, getting all kinds of great KOs, excellent nuke, revenge killing a lot of faster mons. It does almost half to Keldeo ffs lol. It has an excellent set of resistances that lets it function as a birds check, Latis check, even Char Y check for offense which is just great. Balloon Tran is a solid rocks setter and hits p damn hard as well. The key is that it's really hard to switch into unless you're Chansey or a bulky resist, which isn't very much in OU, and checks a lot of key mons for offensive teams that typically cause trouble.

Heatran's offensive and defensive sets are really, really solid, handling multiple top threats and difficult to switch into whether it's running 0 Calm or 252 Modest. Nothing packs the same incredible combination of traits that Heatran has, packing so much utility and threat level in one teamslot. A+ is a no-brainer.
 
Keldeo S to A+
Keldeo has a few too many hard checks that are very common. Also too reliant on a choice items to do its job which can easily be played around. Very good pokemon in the metagame at the moment, but cant exactly be slapped onto any team like most S rank pokemon

Heatran A+ to A
Lack of reliable recovery and common weaknesses really hurt a primary defensive pokemon. Still a great pokemon but doesnt seem as effective as the other A+ mons.

Mandibuzz A to A-
After recent bans two pokemon Mandibuzz does really well against, Aegislash and Bisharp, are a lot less common. Being a defogger weak to stealth rock doesnt help either, about time it drops.

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Terrakion A to A+
Without Aegislash, Terrakion is now free to do so much more. The double dance set is amazing and subsalac or rockpolish+hp ice are great as well. Choiced sets also dont have to worry about locking themselves into a move and giving Aegislash a free switch in.

Tyranitar Stay in A
I know many of you are opposed to this, but I still think that it is perfectly fine in A.
<a href="http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...te-on-post-4897.3502428/page-200#post-5662855">

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Diggersby A- to B+
I'm not entirely sure about this as I havent used Diggersby extensively, but to me it just isnt as good as other A- pokes. It's subpar speed and poor defenses hold it back a little too much and I dont think that it should be ranked above rain.

Gardevoir (Mega) Stay in A-
Medicham (Mega) Stay in A-
I know everybody is so hyped to use these two with Aegislash gone, but I think B- is just too much of a stretch. They're both terribly vulnerable to priority and Medicham is extremely fail while Gardevoir is also pretty frail on the physical side. I find Mega Gardevoir a bit underwhelming in the power department as well, as a base 165(?) special attack without a Pixelate boost or item boost just isnt that powerful. On the other hand Mega Medicham is quite powerful, but suffers from 4MSS and loses to things it should beat like Ferrothorn and Heatran if they protect on a HJk. I guess I could sorta see Mega Gardevoir moving to A, but certainly not Mega Medicham. Also, just saying, Mega Heracross is probably better than both of them as it decently bulky, isnt terribly slow, has great coverage and high base power stabs while completely dumping on stall and with a little prediction it can shine against all teams.

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Amoongus B+ to A-
Counters pretty every Keldeo set and is a staple on stall teams that lack Mega Venusaur. Spore, regenerator, and not taking a mega slot really set it apart from Mega Venusaur. Solid defensive typing and stats.

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Politoed B+ to A-
Despite having mediocre stats Politoed is an absolute necessity to rain teams, which is still a pretty strong playstyle. Because of the unmatched support it provides to a strong playstyle it deserves an A- rank.
Scolipede B+ to B/B-
Not really sure why this is so high up after the nerf of baton pass chains. Sure, the quick pass and cleaner sets are stil good, but not enough to warrant a B + rank in my opinion.
Entei B- to B
Solid stats, extremely spammable STAB, and strong priority in Extreme Speed. Many pokemon that would like switching into this thing such as azumarill, landorus t, and tyranitar fear the burn chance. This thing is long overdue to rise.
Magnezone B- to B/B+
Really dont think much needs to be said here, this guy is finally getting recognized and should really move up.

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Staraptor B- to B
The banning of Aegislash makes Staraptors life so much easier, birdspam is becoming a better playstyle and almost nothing wants to switch in on this monster.
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Victini B- to B
I tried the taunt+will-o-wisp set for the first time the other day and its so underrated. Vcreate gives it a good offensive presence and this little guy is one of the only things that wants to switch in on mega hera, medi, and gardevoire after the aegi ban.
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Cresselia C to C+/B-
Cresselia walls so much shit it isnt even funny. Not sure what the hell its doing in C, B- please.

Omastar C to B-/B
Specs Hydro Pump in the rain.......enough said.
But seriously, pretty much just as good as Kingdra and Kabutops and should be ranked accordingly.

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Hawlucha C- to C
The banning of Aegislash makes this so much more viable. It should be rotting with all the shit in C -, C for now please.
 
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Keldeo S to A+
Keldeo has a few too many hard checks that are very common. Also too reliant on a choice items to do its job which can easily be played around. Very good pokemon in the metagame at the moment, but cant exactly be slapped onto any team like most S rank pokemon

Heatran A+ to A
Lack of reliable recovery and common weaknesses really hurt a primary defensive pokemon. Still a great pokemon but doesnt seem as effective as the other A+ mons.

Mandibuzz A to A-
After recent bans two pokemon Mandibuzz does really well against, Aegislash and Bisharp, are a lot less common. Being a defogger weak to stealth rock doesnt help either, about time it drops.

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Terrakion A to A+
Without Aegislash, Terrakion is now free to do so much more. The double dance set is amazing and subsalac or rockpolish+hp ice are great as well. Choiced sets also dont have to worry about locking themselves into a move and giving Aegislash a free switch in.

Tyranitar Stay in A
I know many of you are opposed to this, but I still think that it is perfectly fine in A.
XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #4897)

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Diggersby A- to B+
I'm not entirely sure about this as I havent used Diggersby extensively, but to me it just isnt as good as other A- pokes. It's subpar speed and poor defenses hold it back a little too much and I dont think that it should be ranked above rain.

Gardevoir (Mega) Stay in A-
Medicham (Mega) Stay in A-
I know everybody is so hyped to use these two with Aegislash gone, but I think B- is just too much of a stretch. They're both terribly vulnerable to priority and Medicham is extremely fail while Gardevoir is also pretty frail on the physical side. I find Mega Gardevoir a bit underwhelming in the power department as well, as a base 165(?) special attack without a Pixelate boost or item boost just isnt that powerful. On the other hand Mega Medicham is quite powerful, but suffers from 4MSS and loses to things it should beat like Ferrothorn and Heatran if they protect on a HJk. I guess I could sorta see Mega Gardevoir moving to A, but certainly not Mega Medicham. Also, just saying, Mega Heracross is probably better than both of them as it decently bulky, isnt terribly slow, has great coverage and high base power stabs while completely dumping on stall and with a little prediction it can shine against all teams.

I will cover the below soon, I am busy for the time being and I dont want to lose this post

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Amoongus B+ to A-
Scolipede B+ to B/B-
Entei B- to B
Magnezone B- to B/B+
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Staraptor B- to B
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Victini B- to B
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Cresselia C to C+/B-
Omastar C to B-/B
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Hawlucha C- to C

I Disagree with everything u said except Mandibuzz, Medicham and terrakion. (not the ones you will cover later).

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It has been covered by Jukain why keldeo deserves S:
keldeo fits the definition of an s rank perfectly. it is a powerful, dominant, meta-defining force that is the posterchild for the powerful water-types that exist in ou. it requires little-to-no support, as it can cripple its counters/wear them down/lure and kill them on its own, not to mention things like amoonguss, venusaur, latis, keld . weighed against pokemon like landorus and charizard x, it requires significantly less support. it excels in one role (its powerful choice specs set), but can fill multiple other roles effectively, whether as an all-purpose revenge killer for dd mons and greninja (choice scarf), or as a good sweeper (subcm), or as a lure for walls/faster mons (subendeavor salac). in a nutshell, a powerful, defining, low-cost/high reward mon.

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Heatran can beat a huge number of OU pokemon. Its toxic, taunt protect wears everything down and weakens them, it provides rocks and beats most of (if not all of) the deffogers 1 v 1. It also runs a great scarf set which lets it easily beat the dangerous mega gardes, heracrosses and medichams, as well as so many other pokemon in OU. It is easily A+.

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Ttar is the best supporter for, lets face it, the most viable playstyle at the moment, and thats sand. Sand is able to crush offensive and balanced teams. And although it struggles against defensive teams, they usually carry wallbreakers which just tear stall to shreds. Appart from the ttar + exca core, sand teams can be really diverse, with lots of different member options that make it so threatening and hard to beat. Ttar is the best supporter for sand teams because it isn't as passive as hippo, so it keeps the offensive pressure that sand teams provide. It also runs an excellent scarf set, as well as a great band set. You cant really tell what kind of ttar it is from team preview, its power, bulk, typing and versatility, as well as the amazing playstyle it supports makes it easily A+.

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Diggersby should be A-. Its ridiculous power and good stabs let is destroy defensive teams with LO sword dance, as well as destroy offensive teams with sash SD. Sash SD gets a kill pretty much every game, and if it gets up a sd, it can spam quick attacks and sweep really comfortably late game. The banning of aegi doesn't affect it at all, if anything it helps it because baloon aegi completely destroyed diggersby. Diggersby can also run an effective scarf set. Diggersby's power, and the ability to be great against offensive teams and defensive teams alike mean it deserves A-.

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Garde should move up to A easily. All everyone ever does is say it has bad speed and defense, yet they leave out the fact that it has a great offensive typing, amazing special bulk and ridiculous power. Its great against stall teams, as well as offence. It can tank hits from the likes of keldeo, thundy and lando i and ko back with a hyper voice. Scizor takes a risk switching in due to wisp, leaving Garde with literally no safe switch ins after aegi is gone. The reason it deserves to be a rank above mega medi is that its special bulk and typing allows it to have switch in opportunites, to things like choice locked keldeo secret sword, latis draco metoer ect.
 
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I'll wait for the next meta shift to argue for Pinsir going back to S. It may or may not get a bit better if/when Maw leaves the tier.

I don't agree with people who want Tran to move down because of "lack of recovery" and "common weaknesses." Tran isn't just supposed to wall things. Tran brings so much utility to the table it's not funny. It checks Fairies, Talonflame, Skarm, and Ferrothorn, all good Pokemon in the meta, and with Zone rising, it does a good job against it too. It can set rocks, burn and poison things, and just hit hard because it has a stupidly high Special Attack stat for a "defensive" mon. It has solid defensive typing. It hates Ground-type moves but EQ is like the most exploitable move in the game anyway. Choice sets are awesome on Tran because of great defense and great offense. I've never tried Specs Tran, but ScarfTran is hilariously good at luring and checking things. SubToxic is solid, too, and I've never tried TormenTran and Specs, but am considering it. Tran brings way too much to the table to be just at A.

Tyranitar is the same as Tran in terms of sheer utility. Though it's slower and its defensive typing sucks, its special bulk is insane, has a near bottomless movepool and is awesome with Gyarados and Excadrill. In fact I think it's even better than its Mega in terms of teambuilding, and I'm not calling for Mega Tar to move down because that thing is just ferocious and stupidly bulky even without investment. A+ is fine for this mon, too, though I'm not as adamant about it as I am with Tran.

Zone needs to go up. It traps nicely now that Aegis is gone. Air Balloon Magnet Rise HP Fire is a great Exca check, which is pretty much. I'm even considering bluffing a Magnet Pull set, because Analytic will make sure that Zone hits last either way and give its attacks a bit more juice, which it kind of needs because HP kinda sucks now. I've not tried DragMag this gen, but I am seriously considering it.

Happy to see Raptor and Doom, two of my favorites, getting some love. Raptor's Band set just punches holes into things and makes it easier for Talonflame and Pinsir to put in work, while Scarf is also a decent cleaner. Fire/Dark coverage is pretty solid so it can run NP + coverage or Taunt to stallbreak, it's fast so it doesn't totally suck against offense, and it has some bulk now. Not to mention it no longer gets walled to hell and back by Heatran. Just that Doom kinda sucks pre-mega and his ability is a letdown, but Doom has always been my favorite mon and I'm glad to see it being somewhat usable in OU again.
 
Yeah M-Medicham can be moved up to A. I wanted to wait after I tested it some more to advocate a move up but I think M-Cham is being underestimated at least in this thread. It has a shaky match up against offense which primarily is faster and hits hard enough to give M-Cham issues but that's pretty much it. Anything that falls under M-Chams speed tier and isn't something like Cresselia, Mew, bulky psychic types or Doublade is for the most part going to have an extremely hard time with its power output. This has nothing to do with the Aegislash hype btw, it's just that the Aegislash ban gave M-Cham a free pass to wreck so much stuff so it's only natural that M-Cham's viability would dramatically improve.

Also the 4mss that M-Cham supposably has is being exaggerated. Zen Heabutt and HJK already cover so much ground in the OU tier alone and the fact that the last two slots can be used for stuff to improve its match up against things like Slowbro with Thunderpunch, Fake Out to help with offense a bit better (Fake Out + HJK with Adamant is a clean KO on Defensive rotom-w lol), makes it a serious threat. Those were pretty specific examples but it's not hard for M-Cham to cover ground is what I'm trying to explain. Let's also consider the fact that very few things can reliably switch into M-Cham on a consistent basis. Like for example where one mon can consistently switch into one move, it's completely screwed from getting hit by another. This puts a decent amount of pressure against M-Cham cause if you're just unlucky as hell from a bad switch or just a bad matchup with M-Cham, you might be screwed.

Yeah it has a pretty below average defense but I think when you look past the poor bulk and minor cons and look at the pros from a general perspective I think we can come to a consensus that it exceeds the viability of the A- ranked mons and falls under the the viability of an A ranked mon. I'm sure I missed some points but w/e.
 
I just would like to point out that these numbers can't just be multiplied this way.
"Base Power" is just an approximation, since the Damage Formula is a bit more complex than that.

Hidden Power Ground does hit a little bit harder.
But yeah, the damage difference does not justify the use of HP Ground.

252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 240-284 (62.1 - 73.5%)
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 238-280 (61.6 - 72.5%)
It's never going to be a big difference, you can multiply the base powers and still get a great approximation.
Here is the damage formula :
DamageCalc.png


At level 100, you can simplify that left part to 0.84

You can see that, if you were to calculate damage by hand, up until that part where you add 2, you only multiply Attack, Base Power, a constant (0.84) and divide by defense. So the damage is proportional to base power, until you add 2. Then, that 2 damage is multiplied by modifiers like Type effectiveness, Stab, Life Orb, Weather Boosts, etc. and maybe, after that multiplying, it will be +3 damage, or +4 or +6. It's that number, whatever the 2 ends up being after multipying by the modifier, that accounts for that difference in damage.

Essentially, in this example, you can break up the formula into two parts; the part without the +2, and the part with the +2. So it looks like (0.84*Atk*BP*Modifier/Def) + (2*Modifier). The first part is still proportional to Base Power because there is only multiplication and no addition. The second part is what isn't proportional. In the Gardevoir vs Heatran example, for both moves you can put in 240 for BP*Modifier in the first part, getting (0.84*240*Atk/Def) + (2*Modifier). Obviously Atk and Def stay the same whatever they are. And the only difference between Focus Blast and HP Ground is the (2*Modifier). For HP Ground, this value is 8, because the modifier is 4 due to type effectiveness, and for Focus Blast, (2*Modifier) = 4.

If you look at the HP ranges of your calcs, this lines up; HP Ground does 4 more damage than Focus Blast at the maximum range. There's actually one more multiplier after ALL of this stuff I talked about is done, it's a random number between 0.85 and 1 that determines your damage roll.

TL DR, you can do this Base Power * Type Modifier calculation and you will never be more than a couple of HP off.

With that out of the way, I would like to nominate
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Suicune to move up to A- rank. Yeah it still only does that one set, but if you don't prepare for that one set... Well, I'll just say, the first thing I look for at team preview in a ladder match is if I can just straight up 6-0 with it, because too often I can.

Suicune is a great sweeper that can set up on so many things that hit it for neutral damage. Either the opponent has a super effective match up (pretty rare, there are some special grass and electric moves running around but Calm Mind boosts makes them shaky counters). Or is a super powerful wall breaker, though none of them except Outrage Zard X can actually switch in safely. Special attacking wall breakers actually can't keep up with Suicune's boosts, even Timid Zard Y can't 2HKO a +1 Suicune. Physical wall breakers can get Scald Burned. But Suicune puts a lot of pressure to switch fast so it doesn't boost too high, and that can net you a lot of chip damage Scalding these switch ins.

Since you almost have to consciously prepare to Suicune if you want a reliable way to make sure it can't keep coming in and threatening to set up and sweep, that means you probably only have one good check to it for me to eliminate too.

But the best part is that Suicune is a great bulky water even before it sweeps. Do you need a nice catch all check to Excadrill, or Garchomp, or Greninja (w/o Grass Knot), or Specs Keldeo, or Azumarill, or Heatran, or any Tyranitar set, or Talonflame, or Mamoswine, or ... Leech Seed Mega Venusaur? turn 65 for the "action" yes, you get the point. The simple combination of Scald to do some damage and fantastic bulk that lets it switch in and throw out enough Scalds to get a burn reliably, lets Suicune check so many pokemon. Oh and of course for the special attacking threats, it can set up on them to help itself check them.

That combination of bulky water + sweeper is why I use Suicune on the majority of my stall teams, it just fits them so perfectly. Face it, no stall team can handle every threat reliably; if you play passively against a SD mega heracross and you haven't packed one of its like 2 counters, gg. Suicune gives me a way to play offensively when I need to; if I can just sweep through the wall breaker, I've solved the problem in a very nice way, by winning. And Suicune is a great stall breaker too; try just walling your way through another stall team, it won't, you need something to get through their walls. I think Sweeper (Win Condition if you prefer) is a pretty important role to perform on a stall team, and Suicune fits that role perfectly.
 
I dislike air ballon Magnezone as an Exca check. Any good Exca user is going to iron head you turn 1, which has a 30% flinch rate and prevents your magnet rise, forcing you out. That has the same chance of happening as focus blast does at missing. You also run the risk of switching in on a move that isn't earthquake, and losing your air ballon before you can safely magnet rise.

Scarf Magnezone is pretty good, but I don't like this air balloon set people are talking about. It's not consistent and too risky. On the other hand, Rotom-W is a flawless sand rush Exca check, and defensive Lando-T is pretty good, too.
 
Keldeo S to A+
Keldeo has a few too many hard checks that are very common. Also too reliant on a choice items to do its job which can easily be played around. Very good pokemon in the metagame at the moment, but cant exactly be slapped onto any team like most S rank pokemon
I'll post I paragraph I wrote earlier:
With the banning of Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, Genesect, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Aegislash, and the imminent banning of Mega Mawile, the S rank has transitioned from being the rank of the ban-worthy mons to the rank of the really really really good mons, which is a good thing and a trait of a healthy metagame. Pokemon in the S rank should be able to perform many roles well, or at least one role superbly. These Pokemon will nearly always put in worth during a game, despite having checks and counters. Azumarill fits perfectly within this definition, since it has two sets that are superb now and one set that's still pretty good. Despite having checks and counters, depending on its set, it will always do work during a game. The little support it needs is mitigated by a) how easy the support is to give, and b) how much of a reward using Azu well will give. I think it's on par with Landorus, a mon highly deserving of its rank. Keldeo is a bit different, since it only has one superb set. However, it has developed around five different more niche sets to beat up its checks and counters, something Azumarill actually struggles with. It is overall a worse Pokemon than Azumarill, due to its weakness to Flying and possession of only one amazing set, but I still think it belongs where it is.
Despite not being able to be slapped onto a team as easily as the other S rank Pokemon, I still think Keldeo is more fit for the S rank, since it's still a low-to-now risk Pokemon with one superb set, other effective sets, and a huge niche as a Bisharp check on offensive teams. It has its flaws, but the utility in Scald, as well as a Pursuit weakness allow it to be effective throughout a match.
Heatran A+ to A
Lack of reliable recovery and common weaknesses really hurt a primary defensive pokemon. Still a great pokemon but doesnt seem as effective as the other A+ mons.
It was risen for its offensive (Scarf, Specs, Air Balloon) sets gaining viability, so its defensive remaining as they always have been shouldn't be enough to drop it. I think its versatility and power make it an equal to Garchomp, who currently is A+.
Mandibuzz A to A-
After recent bans two pokemon Mandibuzz does really well against, Aegislash and Bisharp, are a lot less common. Being a defogger weak to stealth rock doesnt help either, about time it drops.
Since the Aegislash ban, Mandibuzz has shifted in viability. It still has a solid defensive typing, utility in Knock Off, Taunt, Toxic, Whirlwind, and Defog, as well as a cool STAB move in Foul Play, but I don't think it's as defining as some mons in the A rank. It's still viable of course, but it's more comparable to Breloom or Kyurem-B in my eyes, since they need some support and aren't as good as they'd like to be. There are like no Ghost-types in OU anymore, so it has to use its other immunities + resistances and take neutral hits to be effective. This isn't too difficult, since it has insane bulk, and so it can check/counter Drill, Chomp, Sharp, Lando, and many other mons, but it still should drop. B+ would be way too far for it to drop though, just saying.
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Terrakion A to A+
Without Aegislash, Terrakion is now free to do so much more. The double dance set is amazing and subsalac or rockpolish+hp ice are great as well. Choiced sets also dont have to worry about locking themselves into a move and giving Aegislash a free switch in.
Very true. Nothing really I can add; everything's been discussed and there's been no opposition.
Tyranitar Stay in A
I know many of you are opposed to this, but I still think that it is perfectly fine in A.
XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #4897)
Sand offense is really powerful now, and I think Tyranitar deserves an A ranking just for its role as a defensive sr setter on sand teams. However, it has viable scarf and band sets, and I think those push it to A+.
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Diggersby A- to B+
I'm not entirely sure about this as I havent used Diggersby extensively, but to me it just isnt as good as other A- pokes. It's subpar speed and poor defenses hold it back a little too much and I dont think that it should be ranked above rain.
It 2HKOs everything except for Gengar and lolDrifblim (there may be some others) at +2. It's ridiculously powerful, and has three viable sets. I think it's actually more effective than Kyu-B, Manaphy, and Gyarados, three mons that definitely deserve A-. Also, I think using rain as an argument isn't that great since rain should rise anyway.

Gardevoir (Mega) Stay in A-
At this point teams are somewhat struggling to handle Gardevoir. It has extremely good three move coverage, and no complete counters that I can think of, other than Victini. I really think for its insane power (you're seriously underrating its special attack - it's the equivalent of Life Orb Timid base 115's, and has high powered moves to push it over the top. It definitely needs to rise, and I think the Mawile ban may push it to A+, but well just have to wait and see n.n
Medicham (Mega) Stay in A-
I know everybody is so hyped to use these two with Aegislash gone, but I think B- is just too much of a stretch. They're both terribly vulnerable to priority and Medicham is extremely fail while Gardevoir is also pretty frail on the physical side. I find Mega Gardevoir a bit underwhelming in the power department as well, as a base 165(?) special attack without a Pixelate boost or item boost just isnt that powerful. On the other hand Mega Medicham is quite powerful, but suffers from 4MSS and loses to things it should beat like Ferrothorn and Heatran if they protect on a HJk. I guess I could sorta see Mega Gardevoir moving to A, but certainly not Mega Medicham. Also, just saying, Mega Heracross is probably better than both of them as it decently bulky, isnt terribly slow, has great coverage and high base power stabs while completely dumping on stall and with a little prediction it can shine against all teams.
This I agree with though. Bulky Psychic-types, namely Mew, Slowbro, Cresselia, and Victini, are showing up in OU often, and make Medicham's life hard. It's still super strong, but is less effective than Gardevoir. I think it should stay with Kyu-B + Diggersby.
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Amoongus B+ to A-
This I totally could see. Amoonguss is pretty underrated. It fits on all types of teams other than ho, and is mainly used as a replacement to venu on teams with another mega. However, it isn't a complete step down, since it has Regenerator and Black Sludge, so it isn't worn down as much, Clear Smog to deter setup, Foul Play for niche uses, as well as Spore, a really awesome move that pushes Loom to A-. Amoonguss is a great bulky pivot that beats Keldeo and Azumarill, two hard Pokemon to counter/check. It's also a great switch-in to Rotom-W, which is cool. This is definitely a mon that deserves more suggestion, but it is definitely not unreasonable.
Scolipede B+ to B/B-
Pede was totally overhyped when it was A-. B+ is a more modest ranking for it, but I think comparing it with Pokemon like Mega Garchomp is hard to do. It has insane speed, but is kinda forced to be Jolly, which is annoying. It also lacks no defensive synergy at all. It's a pretty unique and cool sweeper, but I don't think it deserves to be in the same rank as MegaChomp or Kabutops, who are much better, imo. Feel free (someone else) to prove me wrong though, since I've always liked Pede.

Oh yeah wait. I forgot about quickpassing speed + power/bulk to dangerous mons. Nevermind; the thought of a fast + stronger heracross or a fast + bulky Gardevoir is terrifying enough for Pede to be in B+.
Entei B- to B
This is brought up a lot, and I'm not too sure how I feel about it. It's a very niche mon that requires some building around to be effective, like Weavile. However EdgeQuake + super spammable STAB move + semi-strong priority actually kinda puts it over Weavile. It however lacks the defensive utility Victini has, a mon it faced competition with and really deserves B (or B+...). Overall, Entei cripples its checks/counters just by spamming a strong move, which is amazing. It can get past Heatran, which is nice for a fire-type, + has priority to pick off stuff, so a rise totally isn't unreasonable.
Magnezone B- to B/B+
Underrated mon that is starting to gain popularity/support. I think I'd support B, since it's definitely comparable to Lucario + Starmie; they're all somewhat niche mons that need some support, but can easily shine. There's no mon like Magnezone; there's nothing w/ magnet pull, nothing w/ it's typing that lets it check Pinsir w/ a Scarf, Excadrill w/ an air balloon and magnet rise, and its more traditional specs set that clears Ferro, Scizor, and Skarmory away from sweepers, namely Dragons. B+ may be pushing it, but B is very easy to see.
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Staraptor B- to B
Cool Pokemon that's really hard to switch into. It's a really solid wallbreaker for late game cleaners like Pinsir and Talonflame that can also be used as a revenge killer. It's another mon I see as similar to Lucario, so a B rising makes sense.
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Victini B- to B
Yes please! StallTini is so good, and can be used on all teams other than ho. You can modify the set to your needs, and it's overall such a cool mon. Its typing lets it check Gardevoir, Char-Y, and Medicham, two terrifying mons, and its movepool lets it cover what it needs to (electric/fire coverage is godly, and wow + taunt stallbreak). I could see it in B+ tbh, since checking gardy/cham is so cool for bulky offensive teams.
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Cresselia C to C+/B-
Yes please! Say hello to stall's best answer to CM Landorus, and all Landorus. Its bulk is outrageous, it has recovery, a good offensive movepool, and screens for its standard sets. It also has other moves with more niche uses like Trick Room, Toxic, and Thunder Wave that help its case. I honestly view it as as viable as Celebi, who's B-, so I don't think it's that extreme for it to go up two ranks (celebi did).
Omastar C to B-/B
First of all, it's a lot less niche than Seismitoad on Rain teams. A lot. That I think at least should move it to C+. It sacrifices a lot of Kingdra's speed and Keldeo's coverage for extreme power; this thing 2hko's Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump :O It's a niche mon, but I don't think it's outrageous to put it in B-. Putting it in C+ is a necessity imo since it does have a solid niche on rain teams, it's just annoying to have two pokemon with a quadruple grass weakness.
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Hawlucha C- to C
Definitely. SubSD w/ Sitrus Berry is really cool now. Its less niche than C- mons, and is a unique Pokemon with a decent niche. It hates birdspam + thundy, but can work around it w/ team support, like other C mons.
Yeah M-Medicham can be moved up to A. I wanted to wait after I tested it some more to advocate a move up but I think M-Cham is being underestimated at least in this thread. It has a shaky match up against offense which primarily is faster and hits hard enough to give M-Cham issues but that's pretty much it. Anything that falls under M-Chams speed tier and isn't something like Cresselia, Mew, bulky psychic types or Doublade is for the most part going to have an extremely hard time with its power output. This has nothing to do with the Aegislash hype btw, it's just that the Aegislash ban gave M-Cham a free pass to wreck so much stuff so it's only natural that M-Cham's viability would dramatically improve.

Also the 4mss that M-Cham supposably has is being exaggerated. Zen Heabutt and HJK already cover so much ground in the OU tier alone and the fact that the last two slots can be used for stuff to improve its match up against things like Slowbro with Thunderpunch, Fake Out to help with offense a bit better (Fake Out + HJK with Adamant is a clean KO on Defensive rotom-w lol), makes it a serious threat. Those were pretty specific examples but it's not hard for M-Cham to cover ground is what I'm trying to explain. Let's also consider the fact that very few things can reliably switch into M-Cham on a consistent basis. Like for example where one mon can consistently switch into one move, it's completely screwed from getting hit by another. This puts a decent amount of pressure against M-Cham cause if you're just unlucky as hell from a bad switch or just a bad matchup with M-Cham, you might be screwed.

Yeah it has a pretty below average defense but I think when you look past the poor bulk and minor cons and look at the pros from a general perspective I think we can come to a consensus that it exceeds the viability of the A- ranked mons and falls under the the viability of an A ranked mon. I'm sure I missed some points but w/e.
Perhaps I'm underrating it, idk. it's just that from what I've seen bulky Psychic's are on the rise, notably Mew, and they just make cham miserable. It's kinda slow and really frail, so it's easily rked. It's still a monster offensively, it's just the now widespread check/soft counter (mew), increase in victini/cress/bro, + mediocre matchup against offense makes it a tier worse than Gardy, and thus A-.

Okay, now I'll make some nominations. Most of these are from my last post, since the meta hasn't shifted at all.

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Jirachi can be defensive or offensive, both of which cover Gardevoir, KyuB, and some other threats. It's Scarf set is a cool revenge killer and dragon/fairy/venu check, and also has healing wish, trick, and u-turn for utility. It also has a sp. def set that counters Gardevoir, Latios, Latios, most Greninja, and checks Kyu-B. I think it's a troubles but useful mon, and should be C rank, similar to Chandelure. Azelf is the only suicide lead for rain teams, and a great suicide lead and dual screener outside of rain. It's hardly outclassed by anything (outside of completely offensive roles), and I think it belongs in the B-. Politoed belongs in A- for its obvious ability to make rain teams as threatening as they are. Its stats are average, but are enough for it to do what it needs to do. It also has a great offensive and support movepool that allow it to help out its rain team.

Alomomola is almost as defining of stall as Slowbro is. Both are very bulky Waters w/ Regenerator. However, Alo can pass huge wishes at the cost of having no offensive presence or 1 turn recovery, like Slowbro. It belongs in B+, showing that it's about on par with Amoonguss and Suicune on stall teams. Slowbro is a fantastic defensive Pokemon now that is basically the #1 switch in to Charizard-X. Its physical bulk is absolutely absurd, and its special bulk and special attack aren't too shabby either. Thanks to Slack Off + Regenerator, it's known to be impossible to kill. It walls Mega Medicham, who's very threatening now, and is basically one of the four go-to Water-types on stall teams (Slowbro, Alomomola, Suicune, Quagsire), and in my opinion it's the best. Mew is SO good right now, it isn't even funny. Its stallbreaking set cripples many teams at the start of the game. It's notorious for never dying, and it frankly never stops annoying teams it's put up against. I think it's on the same level as Landorus-T and Gliscor, and so I'd put it in A rank.

Zapdos is cool mon on bulky offensive teams, since it combines a Pinsir check and a hazard remover in one. However, its stats often let it down, and in general most teams would rather run Thundurus + Excadrill than Zapdos. Conkeldurr is really bad now, there's no way getting around that. So many Pokemon make its like hell, and the only Pokemon off the top of my head that it is great against is Kyurem-B, who is drastically falling in popularity. I truthfully view it as a C+ Pokemon, as its very mediocre and can be the right fit on some teams, but usually isn't worth the choice. It actually isn't outclassed by anything, it just isn't great. It being in the same rank as Lucario or Kingdra is 100% wrong. I guess it could drop to B- first, idk. Lastly, Sylveon is a Pokemon that is generally outclassed by Clefable. Hyper Voice + much better special bulk is enough to use it on some teams, and I think it's better than other C+ mons, and better than Conk, while worse than B- mons. I'm not exactly sure where I'd rank it, tbh, but the competition with Clefable makes me think C+ is best.

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Gengar doesn't belong in the same ranking as Gliscor, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, and (hopefully) Mew. It's a good mon, but it just doesn't boast enough for offensive teams to constantly use it. It isn't outclassed, it just doesn't bring enough to the table to be a standard mon. I think it belongs in A- or B+. Zygarde seems to me to be a weird Pokemon to have in the C rank; it has no true niche. Sub Coil sounds interesting, but it struggles do to its common special weaknesses as well as its low power. It also has Dragon Dance, which seems nice with STAB EQ. But, its EQ is barely weaker than Dragonite's and Charizard-X's. I may be missing something, but I'm unsure as to why we haven't given this the Vaporeon treatment, or at least the Roserade treatment. Sharpedo has no real niche in OU. It really should be D rank or unranked.

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Toxicroak has a decent niche on rain teams, and is even usable on non-rain teams as a check to Keldeo, Clefable, Breloom, and Azumarill, and in my opinion is worth a ranking. I've used it on a bo team recently, and it was really impressive. It checks keldeo + azumarill + clefable, has priority, recovery in black sludge, drain punch, and dry skin, and good coverage with Ice Punch. I think it belongs in the C rank; it's incredibly underrated. Crawdaunt is a solid Pokemon, and I didn't agree to its demotion earlier. It's powerful, and that's all it needs to be considered for B- again. Its Knock Off and Crabhammer break walls amazingly, and its Aqua Jet allows it to act as a solid revenge killer. It also has SD, which allows it to act as a more powerful but more frail and slow Diggersby. Nothing has changed recently in its favor, but I don't think it belongs in the mediocre but usable ranking if it's superior to them. Espeon has an interesting stallbreaking set, but it's far too niche for C+. It belongs in C.
It's never going to be a big difference, you can multiply the base powers and still get a great approximation.
Here is the damage formula :
DamageCalc.png


At level 100, you can simplify that left part to 0.84

You can see that, if you were to calculate damage by hand, up until that part where you add 2, you only multiply Attack, Base Power, a constant (0.84) and divide by defense. So the damage is proportional to base power, until you add 2. Then, that 2 damage is multiplied by modifiers like Type effectiveness, Stab, Life Orb, Weather Boosts, etc. and maybe, after that multiplying, it will be +3 damage, or +4 or +6. It's that number, whatever the 2 ends up being after multipying by the modifier, that accounts for that difference in damage.

Essentially, in this example, you can break up the formula into two parts; the part without the +2, and the part with the +2. So it looks like (0.84*Atk*BP*Modifier/Def) + (2*Modifier). The first part is still proportional to Base Power because there is only multiplication and no addition. The second part is what isn't proportional. In the Gardevoir vs Heatran example, for both moves you can put in 240 for BP*Modifier in the first part, getting (0.84*240*Atk/Def) + (2*Modifier). Obviously Atk and Def stay the same whatever they are. And the only difference between Focus Blast and HP Ground is the (2*Modifier). For HP Ground, this value is 8, because the modifier is 4 due to type effectiveness, and for Focus Blast, (2*Modifier) = 4.

If you look at the HP ranges of your calcs, this lines up; HP Ground does 4 more damage than Focus Blast at the maximum range. There's actually one more multiplier after ALL of this stuff I talked about is done, it's a random number between 0.85 and 1 that determines your damage roll.

TL DR, you can do this Base Power * Type Modifier calculation and you will never be more than a couple of HP off.

With that out of the way, I would like to nominate
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Suicune to move up to A- rank. Yeah it still only does that one set, but if you don't prepare for that one set... Well, I'll just say, the first thing I look for at team preview in a ladder match is if I can just straight up 6-0 with it, because too often I can.

Suicune is a great sweeper that can set up on so many things that hit it for neutral damage. Either the opponent has a super effective match up (pretty rare, there are some special grass and electric moves running around but Calm Mind boosts makes them shaky counters). Or is a super powerful wall breaker, though none of them except Outrage Zard X can actually switch in safely. Special attacking wall breakers actually can't keep up with Suicune's boosts, even Timid Zard Y can't 2HKO a +1 Suicune. Physical wall breakers can get Scald Burned. But Suicune puts a lot of pressure to switch fast so it doesn't boost too high, and that can net you a lot of chip damage Scalding these switch ins.

Since you almost have to consciously prepare to Suicune if you want a reliable way to make sure it can't keep coming in and threatening to set up and sweep, that means you probably only have one good check to it for me to eliminate too.

But the best part is that Suicune is a great bulky water even before it sweeps. Do you need a nice catch all check to Excadrill, or Garchomp, or Greninja (w/o Grass Knot), or Specs Keldeo, or Azumarill, or Heatran, or any Tyranitar set, or Talonflame, or Mamoswine, or ... Leech Seed Mega Venusaur? turn 65 for the "action" yes, you get the point. The simple combination of Scald to do some damage and fantastic bulk that lets it switch in and throw out enough Scalds to get a burn reliably, lets Suicune check so many pokemon. Oh and of course for the special attacking threats, it can set up on them to help itself check them.

That combination of bulky water + sweeper is why I use Suicune on the majority of my stall teams, it just fits them so perfectly. Face it, no stall team can handle every threat reliably; if you play passively against a SD mega heracross and you haven't packed one of its like 2 counters, gg. Suicune gives me a way to play offensively when I need to; if I can just sweep through the wall breaker, I've solved the problem in a very nice way, by winning. And Suicune is a great stall breaker too; try just walling your way through another stall team, it won't, you need something to get through their walls. I think Sweeper (Win Condition if you prefer) is a pretty important role to perform on a stall team, and Suicune fits that role perfectly.
Not outrageous at all; I just think it needs more discussion. Suicune is ridiculously hard to beat if you lack a check (or counter, like Toxicroak [plz rank!!!!]), and it's a really great win condition on stall teams, who are often too passive. The one thing stopping it now imo is Slowbro still being B+, since i think its Fighting/Psychic resistances make it a slightly better bw on a stall team. However, Suicune's capability to serve as a status absorber and a win condition for stall allows it compete with Slowbro. I think both should be A-.
 
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It's never going to be a big difference, you can multiply the base powers and still get a great approximation.
Here is the damage formula :
DamageCalc.png


At level 100, you can simplify that left part to 0.84

You can see that, if you were to calculate damage by hand, up until that part where you add 2, you only multiply Attack, Base Power, a constant (0.84) and divide by defense. So the damage is proportional to base power, until you add 2. Then, that 2 damage is multiplied by modifiers like Type effectiveness, Stab, Life Orb, Weather Boosts, etc. and maybe, after that multiplying, it will be +3 damage, or +4 or +6. It's that number, whatever the 2 ends up being after multipying by the modifier, that accounts for that difference in damage.

Essentially, in this example, you can break up the formula into two parts; the part without the +2, and the part with the +2. So it looks like (0.84*Atk*BP*Modifier/Def) + (2*Modifier). The first part is still proportional to Base Power because there is only multiplication and no addition. The second part is what isn't proportional. In the Gardevoir vs Heatran example, for both moves you can put in 240 for BP*Modifier in the first part, getting (0.84*240*Atk/Def) + (2*Modifier). Obviously Atk and Def stay the same whatever they are. And the only difference between Focus Blast and HP Ground is the (2*Modifier). For HP Ground, this value is 8, because the modifier is 4 due to type effectiveness, and for Focus Blast, (2*Modifier) = 4.

If you look at the HP ranges of your calcs, this lines up; HP Ground does 4 more damage than Focus Blast at the maximum range. There's actually one more multiplier after ALL of this stuff I talked about is done, it's a random number between 0.85 and 1 that determines your damage roll.

TL DR, you can do this Base Power * Type Modifier calculation and you will never be more than a couple of HP off.

With that out of the way, I would like to nominate
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Suicune to move up to A- rank. Yeah it still only does that one set, but if you don't prepare for that one set... Well, I'll just say, the first thing I look for at team preview in a ladder match is if I can just straight up 6-0 with it, because too often I can.

Suicune is a great sweeper that can set up on so many things that hit it for neutral damage. Either the opponent has a super effective match up (pretty rare, there are some special grass and electric moves running around but Calm Mind boosts makes them shaky counters). Or is a super powerful wall breaker, though none of them except Outrage Zard X can actually switch in safely. Special attacking wall breakers actually can't keep up with Suicune's boosts, even Timid Zard Y can't 2HKO a +1 Suicune. Physical wall breakers can get Scald Burned. But Suicune puts a lot of pressure to switch fast so it doesn't boost too high, and that can net you a lot of chip damage Scalding these switch ins.

Since you almost have to consciously prepare to Suicune if you want a reliable way to make sure it can't keep coming in and threatening to set up and sweep, that means you probably only have one good check to it for me to eliminate too.

But the best part is that Suicune is a great bulky water even before it sweeps. Do you need a nice catch all check to Excadrill, or Garchomp, or Greninja (w/o Grass Knot), or Specs Keldeo, or Azumarill, or Heatran, or any Tyranitar set, or Talonflame, or Mamoswine, or ... Leech Seed Mega Venusaur? turn 65 for the "action" yes, you get the point. The simple combination of Scald to do some damage and fantastic bulk that lets it switch in and throw out enough Scalds to get a burn reliably, lets Suicune check so many pokemon. Oh and of course for the special attacking threats, it can set up on them to help itself check them.

That combination of bulky water + sweeper is why I use Suicune on the majority of my stall teams, it just fits them so perfectly. Face it, no stall team can handle every threat reliably; if you play passively against a SD mega heracross and you haven't packed one of its like 2 counters, gg. Suicune gives me a way to play offensively when I need to; if I can just sweep through the wall breaker, I've solved the problem in a very nice way, by winning. And Suicune is a great stall breaker too; try just walling your way through another stall team, it won't, you need something to get through their walls. I think Sweeper (Win Condition if you prefer) is a pretty important role to perform on a stall team, and Suicune fits that role perfectly.

I completely agree with Suicune in A- or even A rank. I was arguing for this back when mega Gengar was in the tier. He hasn't changed much, and his job has only gotten easier now that the megas that can 2hko him (mega Luc and mega Kanga) are gone.
 
Cresselia definitely deserves to move up, it walls Landorus-T, Landorus-I, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Medicham, Band variants of Talonflame, Terrakion, non Specs Keldeo, Breloom and more. Thunder-Wave + Lunar Dance is an amazing combo as well or Trick Room + Lunar Dance for TR teams. It doesn't care about hazards because of Levitate so it doesn't have much trouble coming in. Aegislash getting the boot also helped it tremendously.
 
I'm not even going to tackle Tran for B+, because that's just bullshit

Magnezone for B/B+
This Pokemon is a great partner for many awesome Pokemon in the meta right now, such as Mega Pinsir and Landorus-T, taking out Pokemon like Scizor and Ferrothorn that these Pokemon might dislike. The Scarf set is also a fantastic check to birdspam, something that is really dangerous right now. Seeing just how good Birdspam, Ferro and MScizor are in today's Metagame for multiple top threats, being able to handle them all in one Pokemon is damn sweet, and B- is just too low for Magnezone as a result.

Cresselia for B-
Oh god this thing is so fucking good right now. This is THE best answer to Lando , Megacham and Mega Garde that lack taunt on a stall team. It's a fantastic supporting Pokemon with access to screens and Lunar Dance, two incredibly useful moves. It's such an anti meta mon right now and I believe it NEEDS to move up here.

Mew for A
Enough has already been said. A Fantastic stallbreaker, Mew is a very effective Pokemon in today's Metagame, working very well against stall while still retaining it's use vs offence, like a better Gengar. This is probably because, unlike Gengar, Mew is bulky, and has a reliable recovery move. I think Mew is a truly fantastic stallbreaker and putting it LOWER than Gengar is just stupid.

Scolipede stays B+
Scolipede's Speed Boost Cleaner set is still very good in this game, however I can safely stay it should remain B+ for 2 reasons. 1, it almost requires Magnezone support to remove both Scizor and Ferrothorn, which is probably preventing it from reaching A. 2, I don't see it comparable to threats like Mega Heracross. Not as viable. However, Scolipede is still great at doing it's job and can still quickpass anyway, which isn't too bad either. It should stay right where it is.

The below things are things I agree on that have had enough said about them and I feel I couldn't add anything.

Terrakion for A+

Diggersby stays A-

Staraptor for B/B+

Keldeo stays S

Mega Heracross for A

Mega Gardevoir for A

Raikou for B+
 
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I'd like to show my support for moving what I consider to be the three primary wallbreakers/stallbreakers right now from A- to A, namely Mega-Gardevoir, Mega-Heracross, and Mew. These three are the main resons stall is so hard to use at the moment, and a couple of things seperates these three from the likes of Mega-Medicham and Kyurem-B IMO.

The first one is just how efficiently they break Stall. While Mega-Medichan struggles vs bulky psychics such as Slowbro, and Kyurem-B needs to lock itself into Outrage to break Chansey and also struggles against Clefable, MHera can only be stopped by Scarf Goth, MGarde by MScizor, and Mew by the Zards (yeah I guess Mew struggles vs Gliscor but from experience you usually outspeed it and end up PP stalling it anyway). This is discounting niche stuff like Doublade/Dusclops/Bronzong.
MHera, MMedi, and Mew are, in my opinion, the three hardest things for Stall to beat, and that including Landorus-I, whose status of perfect stallbreaker was compromisied by the rise of SpD Gliscor who is on like every stall team atm.

Secondly, these stallbreakers are quite good vs offense as well. Unlike MMedi, whose bad bulk and average speed means it gets steamrolled by offense, and Kyurem-B, who has solid bulk but a bad typing which means pretty much everything offensive has something to hit it for super-effective damage, MHera has solid bulk and a decent typing, which lets it act a great counterlead and check to sand offense, and also does other pretty neat things like switch into Bisharp. MGardevoir is not quite as good vs offense due to its lesser overral bulk, however, its ability to reliably switch into Latis, who are on almost every offensive team, is very useful. Its presence also stops the opponent from mindlessly spamming Outrage and choice-locked Fighting moves such as Scarf Terrakion's Close Combat and Specs Keldeo Secret Sword. Mew is pretty ridiculous for even the most offensive of teams to deal with, since thanks to its great bulk, it can find opportunities to come in, cripple something with Will-O-Wisp, possibly harass something with Knock Off, and recover up later.

Mega-Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, and Mew are all extremely good stallbreakers which even offensive teams need to account for, and for these reasons, I feel like they should move to A
 
Not to say Bisharp is a bad mon but i think you are overselling it quite a bit.

With the removal of Deo-D and with it the removal of spikes from competitive play (mostly) the pressure on the opponent to use defog is much smaller making its role as a Defog blocker far less valuable. With Aegi gone another one of his mayor roles went out of the window as he is no longer needed to check/trap him. In general he isnt the best trapper as the Latis, his main targets, often carry HP fire/fighting not to mention that he is 2hkoed by basicly every coverage move they have forcing you into 50/50 guessing games.

Without SD he isnt much of a threat as long as the opponent doesnt give him a defiant boost and its never a good thing to rely on the opponent to help you sweep. With SD he can get dangerous on his own but can no longer Pursuit trap reducing his overall utility. And even if he gets that +2, the most he will do is take down one poke as he is easily checked by a number of extremely common mons like Keldeo, Terrakion etc. There is hardly any team out there that is threatened by +2 Bisharp because his checks are so good and viable. The reliance on sucker punch is another issue making him vulnerable to faster wow users and your always risking giving your opponent a free switch to a check cutting the sweep even shorter.

Was the drop justified? yes. Are we overselling it? not at all.
Bishard is still one of the best mons out there, Deo or no Deo, Aegi or no Aegi. He loves switching in on defogs, and thats okay, because there are more mons than Deo who can set hazards. A favorite of mine to use along side him is Shuckle. Bisharp is slow, so he loves the sticky web support, and SR lets him nab a few extra OHKO's. With both hazards out, you make it really tempting for a defogger to come out and do their thing.
 
It seems there are quite a lot of nominations right now... I'm gonna go ahead and summarize them in a few spoiler tags; my own and the others.

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Mega Gardevoir to A: Extremely effective stall- and wallbreaker, fantastic STABs, awesome Special Attack, great Special Defense that allows to switch in relatively reliably on the Eons (watch out for LO/Specs Latios) and can alter its last moveslot to fuck over would-be counters, completely stop Stall or boost its Specials to insane levels. Due to its powerful Hyper Voice and massive Special Attack, almost nothing can switch in on it after SR or at +1, especially not if at +1 after SR. Its 100 Speed is a mixed bag: the good side is that due to most Pokémon in this Speed tier not being +Speed or fully invested, Mega Gardevoir can run Modest and score some really neat 2HKOs and OHKOs that Timid can't achieve; the bad side is that some common threats outspeed Mega Gardy and can damage it badly. Somewhat vulnerable against Offense and priority due to low physical bulk, but this is fixed by how amazingly its defensive typing synergizes with Pokémon like Tyranitar and Bisharp. Fully deserving of A, dare I say A+ once Mega Mawile gets the boot.

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Mega Heracross to A:
Absolutely astronomical base 185 Attack stat complemented by Pin Missile (shits all over Subs) and Close Combat (2HKOes Skarm) as STABs with Rock Blast as 125 BP coverage that also shits all over Subs with 80/115/105 bulk to use its array of resistances really well. It survives Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump and OHKOes back with CC if it has a Swords Dance up. Speaking of which, after a SD, Mega Heracross can 2HKO the entire tier (Unaware Clefable is 2HKOed by Rock Blast, for the record). Like Mega Gardevoir, it dismantles Stall like a pro with all these pros. With SR up, nothing's safe to switch in on Mega Heracross. It has some nasty weaknesses and is really vulnerable to Brave Bird, but running Tyranitar or Rotom-W to help defend against it is a very easy solution. Not quite as dangerous as Mega Gardevoir, but nonetheless worth being in A.

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Staraptor to B+: When I look at B Rank, I see some solid Pokémon. However, Staraptor has become far better than most of these Pokémon with the banishment of Aegislash. Its wallbreaking power is simply absurd, being almost as strong as Black Kyurem thanks to Reckless-boosted Brave Bird and Double-Edge. There's virtually nothing that can switch in on this (aside from niche Doublade and maybe Bronzong) without taking an absolute fuckton of damage. Close Combat provides perfect coverage along with those monstrous STABs and coming from 120 Attack, something's just bound to be brutally damaged or outright KOed. Staraptor is also the #1 wallbreaker on Flying Spam cores and, as such, works well with pretty much any of the other Flying-types. Unforunately, its frailty makes it so that it can't take a single hit from opposing Pokémon at all. Its STABs, while monstrous as all fuck, rob it of its HP faster than Talonflame's Brave Bird. Nevertheless, a wallbreaker of this caliber absolutely deserves to be in B+ for its power and prowess in Flying-type cores.

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Raikou to B+: Raikou's strengths lie in being a great Electric-type Choice Specs user, a special tank with AV or a dangerous set-up sweeper with Calm Mind. It has Extrasensory as a nifty anti-Mega Venusaur tool, while HP Ice gets rid of the many Dragon-types in the tier. 115 Special Attack and Speed are pretty impressive for a CM attacker; in fact, Raikou is both the fastest Specs and CM attacker in OU at the moment. Its good 90/100 special bulk makes it a great AV user that checks many common special threats. Its physical frailty and susceptibility to Steel-types like Ferrothorn, as well as its vulnerability to Knock Off due to its heavy item reliance hold it back, however, and its physical frailty makes it susceptible to many physical powerhouses in the tier. Nevertheless, Raikou is solid enough an Electric-type to rise up to B+.

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Mega Manectric to B+: Wherever Raikou heads, Mega Manectric runs along. Whereas Raikou has the advantage of item and set versatility, Mega Manectric is blessed with the ability to be the best offensive Flying Spam check thanks to its great 135 Special Attack and blazingly fast 135 Speed, which makes it the only Electric-type capable of outpacing Mega Aerodactyl, who beats the other Electric-types by outspeeding and OHKOing them. Intimidate cripples all of the Pokémon used on Flying Spam, allowing Mega Manectric to come in, survive a hit and Thunderbolt the Flying-types to the ground. Its coveted Fire-type coverage makes it laugh at Steel-types and Mega Manectric has the particular niche that it counters several Mega Scizor variants; Flamethrower is an easy OHKO in most cases. If more power is preferred, Overheat works just as well. HP Ice rounds out the coverage, 2HKOing most Dragon-types. It does suffer from a lack of power at times, but if regular Manectric nabs a Lightning Rod boost, this issue is completely solved and Mega Manectric turns into a dangerous, nigh-unoutpaceable sweeper. It's also a specially frail Pokémon, which means Scarfed special attackers can usually get the better of it. These flaws aside, Mega Manectric is just as solid as its Electric-type brother Raikou, but specializes in its own fields, so it's worthy of B+.

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Zapdos to B: Meh. I really feel like Zapdos's best time has passed. With such immensely powerful wallbreakers on the rise, defensive Zapdos struggles to keep up and the rise of the Eons means its position as an aerial Defogger is being taken away from it. When it comes to Birdspam, Zapdos is IMO one of its worst checks, since Rotom-W can spread burns and counters Talonflame, while Mega Manectric has Intimidate and outspeeds everything. Its 4MSS between Heat Wave and HP Ice means it's always walled by an array of Pokémon that can easily take advantage of it, unlike the other Electric-types in the tier. Overall, Zapdos is too flawed to stay in B+ with the likes of Scolipede and is more on par with Kingdra and Lucario in B.

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Cresselia to B-/B: I can see this one happening. With those massive defensive stats and its ability to check/counter many offensive threats on the rise, as well as access to Lunar Dance, Cresselia has definitely become more useful. Lack of offensive presence sucks, but damn, those defenses enable it to wall just about anything. B- for Cresselia.

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Terrakion to A+: Yes. Yes. This thing NEEDS to rise to A+ because of its offensively amazing Rock/Fighting-type and ability to run something other than Earthquake now that Aegi has left. Taunt, Substitute, an extra boosting move... Terrakion's become a lot better and more versatile, so it deserves to go to A+.

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Mew to A: I completely agree. With its amazing support movepool that absolutely wrecks Stall, alongside solid 100 stats over the board to make it relatively fast for a defensive Pokémon, Mew is without a doubt the best defensive Stallbreaker. Dark-type weakness sucks, but hey, this thing spreads Will-O-Wisps like the plague and has nice Speed for a defensive role. It can still pull off some surprise offensive or BP sets, but overall the Stallbreaker set is what makes Mew A.

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Tyranitar to A+: I'm with the majority on this one. I just can't see how a Pokémon that single-handedly allows a playstyle to exist (Sand Offense) to only be A Rank. It's definitely on par with many of the A+ Rankers due to how versatile and threatening Tyranitar is. It synergizes really well with some rising threats, mainly Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross, particularly the former. Tyranitar can Pursuit-trap the many rising Psychic-types in the tier and its STAB Crunch is something even Cresselia fears. It's one of the most reliable answers to the Eons, who are slowly dominating OU again as powerful offensive and supportive threats. Tyranitar even has a surprise factor in its Mega Evolution, who is definitely a solid A+. Move this badass back to A+, please.
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Keldeo Stay in S
I really don't agree with this "Keldeo has checks so she can't be S rank" argument. It's not as though Keldeo's aim is to pull off entire team sweeps (although she occasionally can under the right conditions), and instead aims to hit ridiculously hard, deterring a number of top threats from switching in. She does this well, and is capable of placing her opponent under monumental levels of pressure in a wide range of situations. Water / Fighting is a sick offensive typing, and access to STAB Scald burns often turns matches on their heads. She also has great synergy with other top threats (MPinsir, Ferro, Pursuit users)... well worthy of S imo.


Heatran Stay in A+
There is NO WAY Heatran should be moving down right now. Just no way at all. As somebody very rightfully mentioned earlier in this thread, Heatran was A+ rank based on its defensive capabilities alone not too long ago and now, with offensive NukeTrans on the rise, his position in the upper echelons of OU should be set in stone. Way too versatile to move down.


Mandibuzz A to A-
It's definitely time Mandibuzz moved on down to A- (and eventually perhaps even further). She was excellent in the early stages of the meta but, as we're now heavily geared towards an earth-shatteringly offensive environment, Mandibuzz struggles to find the space to do what she wants to do. Defog and Foul Play were two of the biggest reasons to use this bird but being weak to SR kind of hampers her viability over other hazard removers, and the more HO nature of OU atm - featuring many Subs, Huge / Pure Power etc - really limits her ability to FP for the KO. And now with Aegi gone and Bisharp being used less, I think another nail's been hammered into the coffin.

Terrakion A to A+
Terrakion is so awesome. Suicide Hazard Lead, Double Dance, Band, Scarf, HP Ice lure, Taunt... This guy fits in with so many extremely effective playstyles. He's been discussed to death but his CC spams can be insanely difficult to deal with without compromising the health of (an) important wall(s). Again, Aegi's departure only serves to accentuate the benefits of using Terrakion on a team. Certainly worthy of a raise.


Tyranitar A to A+
TTar shouldn't have been in A in the first place imo. As everyone else has mentioned Sand is a terrifying playstyle to come up against, and TTar is the only majorly threatening 'mon that can even make this playstyle a possibility. The fact he's integral to one of the current top team types is enough to warrant a raise, and the fact that he's incredibly versatile - being able to set Rocks, go mixed to beat his counters, run Scarf with Pursuit... - only solidifies his rightful position in A+. I also still believe Mega TTar is one of the most underrated sweepers in the meta. Facing him down at +1/+1 is scary AF for ANYTHING without fighting priority and his special bulk, and good synergy with top threats, makes this an easy position to get him into on a number of occasions.

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Diggersby Stay in A-
I don't really see a good reason why Diggersby should move up. He's powerful and everything but is threatened by a number of extremely common threats in the meta. I've done some extensive testing with him and struggled to find good opportunities to get him in except to RK with Scarf or Band. He's reliant on choice unless he opts to run Double Dance, but that's a huge amount of setup required. Good late game cleaner or revenge killer but nothing more and tbh so is something like Alakazam who's C rank - and before anyone picks me up on that, I understand they have a HUGE number of differences that set them apart, I was merely pointing out that many of the scenarios in which Diggersby's most effective roles really shine can also be capitalised on by less viable cleaners and RKers. I just don't understand any of the hype about why he should move up. Would love to hear other opinions, and maybe mine can be changed, but I definitely don't see him moving up anytime soon. He simply lacks the versatility.

Gardevoir (Mega) A- to A
Without a doubt one of the scariest Megas around at this current point in time. She single-handedly dismantles stall and can heavily cripple Balance, BO and HO when given an opportunity to come on in and have some fun (which isn't actually that unfeasible considering her hefty special bulk). I believe one of the most important aspects in considering whether or not a 'mon is viable at the top ends of a tier is its versatility. After all, versatility and unpredictability are more often than not what allow that 'mon to stand on its own two feet and function with minimal team support (one of the defining characteristics of S ranked 'mons). MGard, to a degree, has this versatility. She can hit through subs to threaten some of the tier's most potent threats, she can run Will-o, she can run Taunt, she gets setup in the form of CM, she can run 3 attacks with excellent coverage, her non-Mega ability can be exploited to come in on things like Tran and threaten the FB... so much can be done with her and she always punches gaping holes in the opposing team when played well. Move on up - and I wouldn't be surprised if you kept on moving.

Medicham (Mega) Stay in A-
I really wish I could find a reason to bump Megacham up to the same level as MGard but unfortunately I really can't. He's strong as shit and can do just as much damage to the opposing team (if not more) but there are just so many negative aspects to consider when using him. I never really feel 4MSS is a reason to discredit any 'mon - on the contrary, it gives them more choice. That should never be a condemning feature and, to be honest, I've never felt the need for more moves on him. Too many people want an all-purpose swiss army knife that can kill anything whenever it wants to. That's Ubers material I'm afraid - something Megacham isn't even close to. However, his lack of any bulk on either side, as well as his wholly sub-par speed in this day and age lead to often lacklustre performances dependant on team match up. He pretty much NEEDS to be brought in safely by VoltTurn or something, as otherwise he lacks any kind of survivability and is easily forced out (which can lead to a loss of momentum). I think he should stay where he is for now. Maybe he'll move up in the future though.

Amoongus B+ to A-
There's very little to be said about this guy except that he's an excellent replacement for MVenu and is one of the reasons stall is still able to function respectably in such an offensive meta. Getting in the way of such a long list of meta-defining forces (Keldeo, Terrakion etc) makes him easily worthy of A- and being able to potentially remove a threat from the game for a few turns at often no opportunity cost is always extremely nice.

Politoed B+ to A-
This guy needs to be bumped up for the same reason I stated for TTar. Rain is still proving to be a scarily effective strategy (albeit not as scary as sand) even after the nerf, and Politoed is an integral part of that playstyle. I don't really see him going over A- though, as he HUGELY lacks to versatility and immediate threat factor that TTar possesses.


Scolipede B+ to B
Scolipede's an interesting one. The BP nerf obviously hit him incredibly hard, and dissuaded many people from using him. However, as many others have mentioned, quickpassing is still a scary strategy and can set up quite a few win conditions. Pede is also very usable as a Hazard Lead, and can maintain an offensive presence at the same time (or can even hazard stack + quickpass). His LO sweeper set isn't really that viable in OU, and more often than not another sweeper will be a better choice. Also, Misshorn's accuracy has let me down in more than one clutch situation. I think he needs to move down but B- seems a little too low for the time being. I don't think such a drastic leap is necessary when he does in fact have some substantial merits.


Entei B- to B / B+
Oh my goodness Entei is good. There's no way he should be bordering on a C ranking. Massively powerful, highly spammable STAB WITH A 50% CHANCE TO BURN is something pretty much every Pokemon could only dream of. Access to good, strong coverage and fantastic priority in the form of ESpeed allow him to cover a variety of extremely relevant threats and his fantastic bulk, which is often underestimated, allows him to run an AV set very effectively (making him a great check to Zard Y). Band has sickening power and shakes up the entire tier when brought in safely. Easily worthy of B rank and I'd even argue the pros involved in using him, compared to the cons, warrant a rise to B+.


Staraptor Stay in B-
Yes, yes Staraptor is difficult to switch in on. So is a Head Smash from Rampardos. I get that this guy has a lot over Rampardos but he still kills himself in the process. My opinions on Staraptor is the same as my opinion on unexpected Destiny Bonds. Yeah, they're nice, but isn't it better to grab a 0-1 rather than a 1-1? Raptor will probably move up but personally I think the opportunity cost in using him to his full potential is too high in many situations. Reliance on choice also hampers his effectiveness. I'd say keep him where he is for now but meh... opinions.

Victini B- to B
I've heard a load of people rave about Stalltini recently but I'm ashamed to say I have yet to try it out! However, I think the Band set is worthy enough of B rank, and Victini's excellent typing allows him to shine on a number of teams with ease. Hazard control is so easy these days I don't even think a weakness to SR is a particularly valid con anymore. This guy also has the scope for versatility, being able to run fully physical, more defensive, special, mixed, Taunt, Will-o, Grass Knot to nail potential counters, Choice bluff... the list goes on. Really worthy of a raise and I promise to try out Stalltini ASAP!


Those are just my thoughts anyway. I was going to add my two cents on Cress, Omastar and Hawlucha but i really haven't used / seen them enough to make an adequate comment. I also didn't want to add anything on Zone because I think pretty much the same things have been said a million times over (although I do look forward to seeing everyone's favourite spaceship rise in Viability).

Also, I nicked MilkyWay01's post structure for this because it was well laid out and saves me a load of time so thanks!
 
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I think leaving Mega Medicham in A- and moving up Mega Gardevoir is silly. Mega Medicham is a monster. Sure it's beaten by...uh...physically defensive Mew (lol) and Slowbro, but because it has priority it is far superior against offense. Medicham's Fake Out is strong doing like 35-40% to most faster threats, enough to sometimes force switches, and very little can stomach an HJK. It also allows Medi to successfully defeat sashmons. While it does have to worry about misses, it doesn't need Focus Blast like Gard does, which is a huge plus. Pokemon with resistances such as Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Charizard Y can force predictions on Gardevoir and make checking it more easy in-battle than in theory, but just HJK can often obliterate even resists, and if it doesn't, either its other STAB covers it or the Pokemon can be picked off with Bullet Punch or whatever.

So yea, totally balanced Mega Medicham should move up too. There's no way in hell it's worse than Gard, priority is huge, HJK smashes apart even resists...yeah it's definitely an A Rank Pokemon.
 
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