Keldeo is also incredibly reliant on Choice items to be successful, rendering your effectiveness argument completely invalid. Staraptor is suicidal, yes, but its coverage and jaw-dropping power is just too great to overlook. Not to mention, Mega Medicham is kinda suicidal as well, due to being frail too and mising HJK stripping half of its HP away.Staraptor Stay in B-
Yes, yes Staraptor is difficult to switch in on. So is a Head Smash from Rampardos. I get that this guy has a lot over Rampardos but he still kills himself in the process. My opinions on Staraptor is the same as my opinion on unexpected Destiny Bonds. Yeah, they're nice, but isn't it better to grab a 0-1 rather than a 1-1? Raptor will probably move up but personally I think the opportunity cost in using him to his full potential is too high in many situations. Reliance on choice also hampers his effectiveness. I'd say keep him where he is for now but meh... opinions.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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I haven't really thought about Mega Medicham yet, but since an Adamant's HJK has a 25% to OHKO physically defensive Rotom-W without SR, I'm throwing in my support here to move Mega Medicham to A. This thing has some great coverage to go with its awesome power, as well as some really useful coverage moves and STABs. Zen Headbutt's flinches can be pretty useful if you need a safer STAB, Drain Punch bolsters Mega Medicham's longevity and then it has the Elemental Punches for coverage, as well as (more importantly) Bullet Punch and Fake Out as priority.
The reason why I more think Mega Gardevoir deserves A than Mega Medicham, is because the former just completely makes Stall its bitch and can fuck its would-be counters over quite easily, but I agree on Mega Medicham being fully deserving to rise to A.
As I said, it comes down to personal preference. Keldeo is more versatile and can run Sub CM or bluff Choice with EBelt often to great success. I've also witnessed some clutch HP action (HP Electric on the Gyara switch etc)... But to say she is "incredibly reliant" on choice is a tad shortsighted.
Specs is indeed most effective though, so I see your point. Maybe it's just not a playstyle that suits me but it just seems a tad 'Reckless' compared to Keldeo (excuse the pun haha).
Still, I don't mind if it moves up really. It's strong and all - just a matter of opinion.
Also worth mentioning that Cham's lack of survivability was one of the reasons I didn't think it should move up (compared to something like MGard). Tbh it's priority is awful (although Fake Out has its uses vs HO as has been said a million times over) and the game is never played in a vacuum. Megacham needs more support than MGard imo and that's why one should move and the other should not. Also MGard gets relevant setup which makes it SO much scarier in a multitude of situations. Unless you want to run Bulk Up Megacham (lol)...
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I think Tyranitar and Politoed definitely need to move up. Weather has been more viable and there's been an increase on rain offense teams recently. They can totally devastate unprepared teams. Possibly Kingdra as well.
no offense but the sets you mentioned are just kind of bad.
Ebelt can work because in high level tours you can lure in gyara after you kill something with secret sword and HP elec it or something of that manner. But other than that subCM sucks because it takes a long ass time to guarantee you can break through the foes, and it just doesn't pressure the foe as much letting stall free what it wants to do because you're locked into the state of a win condition. It can work but in reality I doubt we should really consider it into a reasonable argument
It all depends on team structure. Scarf and Specs may be more useful in MOST situations, but discrediting Sub CM entirely is crazy. It can be hella threatening when played correctly. But that's just one of its sets, whether suboptimal or not in most scenarios.
Keldeo is one of the best Choice bluffers out there. It has the power and the speed to follow up on its would be checks and 2HKO. It's this kind of versatility that sets it apart (sorry for using that word so much but it's so relevant in the higher tiers of viability).
EDIT LIKE #20: posting on my phone is killing me :'(
Since Sand Offense and Rain Offense pokes are getting really solid ranks overall, I'm going to suggest Venusaur (regular one) gets ranked as well. I know that everybody's going to say that Sun is dead, unviable and what not, but it really isn't. It's just that nobody uses it because it requires more teambuilding effort than usual, it's risky and cookiecutter Sand offense teams usually perform better with less risk involved and more flexibility (literally run T-tar and Excadrill with any 4 other members and you have Sand Offense). For sun teams, there's just a few more threats to watch out for, like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir with their priority moves. But aside from that not much has changed for Venusaur, who used to be a very deadly sweeper last gen (and still is). It's apparent that Sun is the worst weather of the 3, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked. Sun was arguably the worst weather last gen besides lol Hail, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked because it's still good.
Sun teams can actually compete thanks to Mega Charizard Y, who provides free Sun turns and most of all, it means you're not stuck with Ninetales. Zard Y also defeats all other weather users with coverage moves, which is a big step forward compared to last gen. Also, being able to Mega Evolve against a weather lead and still get your Sun up despite them being slower is excellent. However, five turns of Sun is not enough for a full Venusaur sweep, so you need a backup Heat Rock user so you can setup a sweep. That's a pretty big deal because you're forced to spend a turn using Sunny Day, and then you need to bring in Venusaur safely whereas Sand and Rain are much more flexible with Smooth Rock and Damp Rock. This is the biggest reason why people don't bother with Sun, because it requires much more support. You also need a way to remove SR for Zard Y, although there's quite a few viable hazard removers. I've used Venusaur with Whimsicott to get up Sun and it works well. When you're ready to sweep you can Sunny Day --> Memento --> Growth with Mega Venusaur and pretty much win from there.
That said, a Venusaur in the sun with a Growth up does sweep through most OU teams barring a few mons like Chansey, Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. It also benefits hugely from Aegislash being gone, as well as Mega Mawile incase it gets banned because it was forced to run HP Fire before, while now it can run EQ for Heatran (Scizor is not everywhere anymore either compared to last gen). And obviously Sucker Punch from Mega Mawile hurts. It's pretty much like Sand Rush LO Excadrill in the sense that so little things can take a hit from it and it outspeeds everything in the tier. Or you can compare it to Kabutops in rain too. In the end Venusaur requires more support to make him work, but the fact that with this support he can sweep teams with relative ease warrants at least a place on the list. I'm going to say C- rank for now, just because other weather is a better choice as it is but it's definitely a better choice than the pokemon in D rank.
Sun is dead, period. Even if we still had permanent weather it would be dead because of Talonflame.
Since Sand Offense and Rain Offense pokes are getting really solid ranks overall, I'm going to suggest Venusaur (regular one) gets ranked as well. I know that everybody's going to say that Sun is dead, unviable and what not, but it really isn't. It's just that nobody uses it because it requires more teambuilding effort than usual, it's risky and cookiecutter Sand offense teams usually perform better with less risk involved and more flexibility (literally run T-tar and Excadrill with any 4 other members and you have Sand Offense). For sun teams, there's just a few more threats to watch out for, like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir with their priority moves. But aside from that not much has changed for Venusaur, who used to be a very deadly sweeper last gen (and still is). It's apparent that Sun is the worst weather of the 3, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked. Sun was arguably the worst weather last gen besides lol Hail, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked because it's still good.
Sun teams can actually compete thanks to Mega Charizard Y, who provides free Sun turns and most of all, it means you're not stuck with Ninetales. Zard Y also defeats all other weather users with coverage moves, which is a big step forward compared to last gen. Also, being able to Mega Evolve against a weather lead and still get your Sun up despite them being slower is excellent. However, five turns of Sun is not enough for a full Venusaur sweep, so you need a backup Heat Rock user so you can setup a sweep. That's a pretty big deal because you're forced to spend a turn using Sunny Day, and then you need to bring in Venusaur safely whereas Sand and Rain are much more flexible with Smooth Rock and Damp Rock. This is the biggest reason why people don't bother with Sun, because it requires much more support. You also need a way to remove SR for Zard Y, although there's quite a few viable hazard removers. I've used Venusaur with Whimsicott to get up Sun and it works well. When you're ready to sweep you can Sunny Day --> Memento --> Growth with Mega Venusaur and pretty much win from there.
That said, a Venusaur in the sun with a Growth up does sweep through most OU teams barring a few mons like Chansey, Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. It also benefits hugely from Aegislash being gone, as well as Mega Mawile incase it gets banned because it was forced to run HP Fire before, while now it can run EQ for Heatran (Scizor is not everywhere anymore either compared to last gen). And obviously Sucker Punch from Mega Mawile hurts. It's pretty much like Sand Rush LO Excadrill in the sense that so little things can take a hit from it and it outspeeds everything in the tier. Or you can compare it to Kabutops in rain too. In the end Venusaur requires more support to make him work, but the fact that with this support he can sweep teams with relative ease warrants at least a place on the list. I'm going to say C- rank for now, just because other weather is a better choice as it is but it's definitely a better choice than the pokemon in D rank.
that's taking it a bit far, but anyways this isn't the place for perma weather theorymon
I would like to nominate Mega Alakazam from B to B+
Mega Alakazam is a great poke whose reputation and usage has only gone up once people realized its better than just a regular Life Orb Alakazam. It does not rely on Shadow Ball for coverage as much with Aegislash gone. It can more freely run either Taunt, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, HP Ice/Fire or even Calm Mind depending on your teams needs. Psychic/Psyshock and Focus Blast are mandatory. The rise in fighting types is also a strong reason I believe it should move up, specifically Keldeo, Terrakion and Mega Heracross. With Aegislash gone, and Bisharp usage dropping, Mega Alakazam is only getting more comfortable in the meta. I believe it belongs with pokes such as Slowbro, Scolipede, Amoongus and Kabutops as opposed to Alomomola, Lucario and Conkeldurr.
Mega Alakazam is a great poke whose reputation and usage has only gone up once people realized its better than just a regular Life Orb Alakazam. It does not rely on Shadow Ball for coverage as much with Aegislash gone. It can more freely run either Taunt, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, HP Ice/Fire or even Calm Mind depending on your teams needs. Psychic/Psyshock and Focus Blast are mandatory. The rise in fighting types is also a strong reason I believe it should move up, specifically Keldeo, Terrakion and Mega Heracross. With Aegislash gone, and Bisharp usage dropping, Mega Alakazam is only getting more comfortable in the meta. I believe it belongs with pokes such as Slowbro, Scolipede, Amoongus and Kabutops as opposed to Alomomola, Lucario and Conkeldurr.
Talonflame singlehandely killed Scarf use and every Sun sweeper is a Grass-type that can't break through the bird in top of getting murdered by it.
Air Balloon Magnet Rise Zone seems gimmicky but it's not half bad if you play carefully. The others are better/more reliable Exca checks, admittedly, but its ability to remove most opposing steels, too, makes it awesome and give you an extra team slot.
Also, Karxrida, you need to stop saying that Sun is dead because of Talonflame. Such a statement is overly simplistic and simply not true. It's like saying that Sand HO is dead because of Azu and Conk, but we all know that's not true. It's one mon that gives it problem, in comparison to Sand HO which has a ton of viable checks and counters. Yes, sun has trouble with the damned bird, but there are methods of dealing with it--you just need to build smart and play smart. Putting rocks up is winning half the battle, because you've just compromised Talonflame's ability to switch in and tear through your team. Tran is a fantastic mon on sun teams and can do just that. LeadApe works too. Rotom-H/W are good mons on a sun team too. Rotom-H may get a powered-up Overheat but Rotom-W can form a nice FWG core.
I'm on the fence about regular Venu getting ranked. On one hand it's not nearly as bad as Darm, but it really isn't spectacular outside sun...
Also, Karxrida, you need to stop saying that Sun is dead because of Talonflame. Such a statement is overly simplistic and simply not true. It's like saying that Sand HO is dead because of Azu and Conk, but we all know that's not true. It's one mon that gives it problem, in comparison to Sand HO which has a ton of viable checks and counters. Yes, sun has trouble with the damned bird, but there are methods of dealing with it--you just need to build smart and play smart. Putting rocks up is winning half the battle, because you've just compromised Talonflame's ability to switch in and tear through your team. Tran is a fantastic mon on sun teams and can do just that. LeadApe works too. Rotom-H/W are good mons on a sun team too. Rotom-H may get a powered-up Overheat but Rotom-W can form a nice FWG core.
I'm on the fence about regular Venu getting ranked. On one hand it's not nearly as bad as Darm, but it really isn't spectacular outside sun...
Nope. Exaggeration still. Scarfers still exist. Besides, Talonflame didn't do it alone, there was also Deo-S to partially blame for that. Chomp, Tran, Raptor, Drill, Zone, Tar, among others can all run viable and useful scarf sets in the meta now that Deo-S is gone.
The original discussion wasn't about scarfers (which talonflame does discourage nowadays) but sun offense, which I agree is dead. The loss of Perma-Weather killed it, and Talonflame buried it. You also don't get 5 turns of sun with Zard-Y, you get 3, you have to switch in and activate sun, after which you have 4 turns. then you have to switch out, bring in Venusaur, and have 3 turns. Venusaur also doesn't have much power unboosted, and boosting takes up another turn giving you 2. If you had something use sunny day and a heat rock, you would have 5, which can still be worked around using defensive switching and possibly protect. All this support for a sweeper that frankly isn't powerful enough to justify all of that support.
Charizard-Y may have the ability to defeat all other weather starters, but not exactly reliably. If it has already mega evolved, it has to switch into them, as if a politoed, hippowdon or tyranitar switch into your solarbeam, you're fucked, to put it plainly. Politoed can hit you with water boosted attacks, and both hippowdon and tyranitar can kill you with stone edge, all while you charge up an attack that will hit with effectively power the same as a Super effective hidden power.
Focus blast can be used to defeat Tar, but is hardly a reliable way of doing so.
A pokemon should only be ranked if it has serious competitive merit, and I don't see that in Venusaur.
Charizard-Y may have the ability to defeat all other weather starters, but not exactly reliably. If it has already mega evolved, it has to switch into them, as if a politoed, hippowdon or tyranitar switch into your solarbeam, you're fucked, to put it plainly. Politoed can hit you with water boosted attacks, and both hippowdon and tyranitar can kill you with stone edge, all while you charge up an attack that will hit with effectively power the same as a Super effective hidden power.
Focus blast can be used to defeat Tar, but is hardly a reliable way of doing so.
A pokemon should only be ranked if it has serious competitive merit, and I don't see that in Venusaur.
While I agree that my choice of words was really poor, there is no denying that Talonflame has had a major impact on Choice Scarf users and they are not nearly as common as last gen.
I also never said Talonflame killed Sun, I said that it would have if weather was still permanent. Sun teams have no good Flying resists outside of Heatran (was Heatran even used on Sun teams last gen?) and could easily get 6-0'd by anyone using a Talonflame. Sun also has major team synergy issues in general, Chlorophyll sweepers do not get their main STAB boosted alongside their speed like Swift Swimmers, they do not have good power un-boosted like Excadrill, and they have worse coverage overall.
I'm against regular Venusaur being ranked. Too niche of an option to warrant on a team and yeah Char Y exists but that doesn't necessarily mean that Sun is a viable play style in the tier. I mean if anyone really wants to have it ranked it would just fit in D, cause although we're suppose to rank stuff viable in the OU tier, let's face it, D rank is like the last kid picked for a team in Gym class.
I love venusaur (who doesn't?), but sun is just god-awful currently.
Talonflame isnt the only thing keeping sun from being great, having to rely on a x4 SR weaknesses, or the worst poke to grace OU (I stand by that, ninetales is shit, even with it's ability), both of which have a terrible matchup against T-tar, one of the best pokes in the tier.
If drought Torterra ever happens, feel free to add him, but right now, venusaur, and sun as a whole, is nothing more than a poor gimmick.
Talonflame isnt the only thing keeping sun from being great, having to rely on a x4 SR weaknesses, or the worst poke to grace OU (I stand by that, ninetales is shit, even with it's ability), both of which have a terrible matchup against T-tar, one of the best pokes in the tier.
If drought Torterra ever happens, feel free to add him, but right now, venusaur, and sun as a whole, is nothing more than a poor gimmick.
Playing with Slowbro a bit, I feel he's deserving of an A- ranking. The ability to beat physical attackers such as Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, Terrakion, etc is a great boon for him. Access to Scald, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Slack Off, Regnerator, etc. help Slowbro become an excellent physical tank that can be a pain to take down.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and then Slowbro can Thunder Wave him (provided Slowbro runs it)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and then Slowbro ruins it with Scald
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Slowbro can either Scald for T-Wave pending on what the player plans on doing
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if that doesn't convince much
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
While...
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 172-204 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO or it could Scald Pinsir & possibly get a burn. Won't appreciate a +2 Return, but from base attack, Slowbro has a bit of a chance to beat it.
24 SpD EVs with max HP & a bold Nature helps Slowbro avoid the 2HKO from Keldeo's Hydro Pump and then cripple it with either Thunder Wave or Psyshock
Unfortunately, Slowbro is hurt by being weak to Knock Off (can take it, but won't appreciate it), loses to Tyranitar unless burned, ruined by Mega Venusaur, and does NOT appreciate getting Toxic'd, but the ability to check some dangerous physical attackers is a great boon for Slowbro. Hope I could make the case for Slowbro getting bumped up to A-.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and then Slowbro can Thunder Wave him (provided Slowbro runs it)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and then Slowbro ruins it with Scald
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Slowbro can either Scald for T-Wave pending on what the player plans on doing
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if that doesn't convince much
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
While...
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 172-204 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO or it could Scald Pinsir & possibly get a burn. Won't appreciate a +2 Return, but from base attack, Slowbro has a bit of a chance to beat it.
24 SpD EVs with max HP & a bold Nature helps Slowbro avoid the 2HKO from Keldeo's Hydro Pump and then cripple it with either Thunder Wave or Psyshock
Unfortunately, Slowbro is hurt by being weak to Knock Off (can take it, but won't appreciate it), loses to Tyranitar unless burned, ruined by Mega Venusaur, and does NOT appreciate getting Toxic'd, but the ability to check some dangerous physical attackers is a great boon for Slowbro. Hope I could make the case for Slowbro getting bumped up to A-.
nominating lord granbull for d rank because tesung used it and it walled my medicham. seriously though granbull isn't that ass for stall in this meta. fairy typing + intimidate lets it wall some pretty key threats, including mega medicham, mega heracross, and terrakion. also eats up hits from stuff like av azumarill and garchomp, and although not ideal it can take mega gyara if needed. not even weak either, base 120 atk + play rough is strong. plus it phazes! basically a pokemon that walls some of the key wallbreakers and isn't a complete pussy offensively, d rank :]
nominating fish for b+ rank. fish is an excellent pokemon in the ou tier. it is a wish passer matched by none, boasting enormous hp + great bulk + regen, meaning it rarely has to stop to heal itself. it can check/deal with with many top ou threats, such as av azumarill, +1 charizard x (not 2hkoed by dclaw), non-sub gyara, drill, landt, offensive tran, talonflame, non-freeze dry mamo, and more...it can also serve as a good pivot switch into things like keldeo and greninja. this gives it ample opportunity to fire off wishes and pass to its teammates. not that much actually likes to switch in, as the scald + toxic combo can cripple many threats, while mola just sits there and doesn't die. fish is the epitome of a team player, and fully deserving to be ranked with the likes of slowbro, suicune, and zapdos.
i also want to second (third, fourth, fifth?) amoonguss for a- rank. amoonguss is a resilient defensive pokemon. it carries the threat of spore, and is able to serve as an answer to top threats such as keldeo, azumarill, and thundurus. it is an excellent pivot switch into all kinds of threats (rotom-w and terrakion being two of major note), and is incredibly easy to keep healthy thanks to regenerator and black sludge. with hp fire, it can successfully switch directly into ferrothorn and hit it for decent damage while ferrothorn cannot heal or touch it in return. it can also serve as an excellent stop to the likes of crocune and cm manaphy, as clear smog resets their boosts. all in all, as an excellent pivot and check to top threats with the ever-useful sweep, and able to fit on a multitude of teams from bulky offense to balance to stall, amoonguss should move up to a- rank.
i think considering to move hippowdon down at this point would be a good idea. all kinds of waters and almightily powerful physical attackers run amuck in the ou tier that make it really difficult for hippowdon to function in the ou tier. it is easily worn down, and takes up a valuable slot for another defensive ground-type, especially gliscor in this metagame. although it can set sand, it is nowhere near as effective for any type of offensive team as tyranitar, and defensive sand playstyles don't really exist. all kinds of pokemon that can take advantage of it, too, are common. hippowdon is really struggling to keep up with the metagame and its great bulk just isn't enough to handle some of the tier's biggest powerhouses anymore.
nominating mega scizor to move down to a rank. times have changed for mega scizor, and in a highly negative way. it's become an increasingly more uncommon sight, and for good reason. it simply cannot sweep ou teams at this point in time. with the likes of rotom-w, talonflame, keldeo, charizard, thundurus, landorus, gyarados, heatran, hp fire latis, raikou everywhere...pulling off actual sweeps is really difficult nowadays, as every team carries at least one or more checks to it, often without even thinking about it. it does have the nice niche of handling mega gard (though fuck wisp), and handles stuff like terrakion nicely with a physically defensive set (this thing has bulk), it still can't perform as well as it used to and, in my eyes, is no longer on the level of top mega sweepers such as mega gyarados, mega tyranitar, and mega pinsir.
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alright, so the c ranks. it honestly disgusts me to see pokemon with actual pretty good niches, like slowking, hawlucha, and bronzong, below garbage like seismitoad (yes i tested it out this thing is weak shit), gourgeist-small, and trick room mons. why on earth is dugtrio in c- rank? there's so much garbage in c rank and below. picking the best mons from c, c-, and d, here's what i have:
- hawlucha
- bronzong
- jirachi
- goodra
- cresselia
- slowking
- alakazam
- omastar
- mega houndoom
i realize this is a rather massive overhaul, but i think this should be c rank if we want to operate under the definiton of 'pokemon with a niche that has a bit of merit in the meta' (as it was described to me by trc). hawlucha, nice sweeper with aegi gone. p damn strong, damn near impossible to outspeed after unburden. sub can even avoid revenge kills! bronzong, p nice check/counter to different things (sand drill, mega gard, lati@s, kyub, mamoswine, megatar, lando [kinda], pinsir [if def spread]) and sets rocks. jirachi isn't ranked but is better than these other mons anyways. nice answer to some different things too, mainly gard and lati@s, also nice against the likes of greninja, tons of utility between wish, mexican strategies, rocks, possible hw even, etc. scarf is great, can cripple a mon with trick or use the ever-valuable healing wish, able to revenge kill different things and even more with some luck plus u-turn to keep momentum in its user's favor (btw moveset: iron head / u-turn / zen headbutt / healing wish or trick). other sets like ebelt/shuca lure have been useful in my experience as well as a rocker and lure for various threats to offense. av goodra gets a lot of hate but it's alright, excellent check to various electrics and char y and beats like every non-gard/fable special attacker 1v1 (not even 2hkoed by ninja w. no rocks bc bulk). cress walls cham and lando nice n ez, reflect so dgaf about pursuit, also handles stuff like terrak, drill, and thund because it's just that fat. plus has decent recovery at least (outside of sand). slowking has a nice niche as a slowbro that actually beats keldeo basically. av set checks/counters like every special attacker every and has good coverage/spatk to boot, + regen so it stays healthy easily. sash zam is a p alright revenge killer, plus it's fast and significantly threatening offensively (though generally inferior to megazam). mg protects it from hazards/ss damage, so its sash is practically guaranteed intact at any point in the game should you keep zam out of harm's way. omastar hits really really hard in rain, 2hkoes even water resists with specs because it's just that strong. it literally only needs its water stab and maybe uses ice beam once in a blue moon, 3x water stab + ib is a very legit moveset. lo smash actually 2hkoes chansey after a boost lol, which is p cool. only issue is it competes with kabutops for a teamslot and it's kinda slow, so scarfers 100+ range can easily revenge kill it (chomp, rak, keld). megadoom can stallbreak nicely and is fast as fuck with strong stabs so matches up decently vs offense (wisp lures the counters av azumarill and tyranitar).
what i was just explaining was these pokemon and their niches with good merit in the meta. i don't think any of these dumb trick room mons or pretty bad super duper niche stuff like moth, wobb, zygarde, gourg small, diancie need to be cluttering up this rank with them. chandy can stay idc.
Nominated this about 10 pages ago, but it seems to have been buried and was missed in the rank changes. I believe Toxicroak should move from Unranked to C+ or C. I've been using CTC's HO team with Toxicroak and Starmie in the Team Building Workshop thread and can comfortably say that since Aegislash's removal, it has a solid niche in the metagame. Toxicroak has the unique ability to offer a check to Keldeo, Clefable, Azumarill, and Breloom while applying pressure to teams with Swords Dance and Sucker Punch. I think Toxicroak's biggest selling point is that its mere presence pressures Belly Drum Azumarill to not set up and it can also switch into Specs Keldeo, two huge threats in the metagame. Toxicroak can pivot against rain offense and most bulky waters as well and has decent set up opportunities. It has a lot of flaws obviously, but it definitely shouldn't be unranked. Also it makes a sort of okay switch in to Non-Earthquake Terrakion too.
Eyy don't hate on gourgeist-s ;_; Its fast af and wisps a ton of crap, and is basically the best spinblocker. No seriously it wisps a ton of stuff, and can kinda switch into some of them:
Azu
Dnite
Loom
Bisharp
Excadrill
Gyarados
Lando-T
(Mega) Scizor
Tyranitar
Diggersby
Mega Heracross
Mega Garchomp
and even Kyu-b for a last mon effort.
It can switch a lot of these somewhat well and is annoying as all hell as a sub seeder. it's kinda frail so i'd keep it where it is but don't hate mang the swift pumpkin is not garbage :[
For the record gourgeist-XL is the trick room thing, gourgeist-s is not a TR mon
Its basically the best subseeder and spinblocker in the tier so I'd say that counts for something :S
More to come later.
calcs vs 252/252 impish Hippowdon
Adamant Mega Medicham HJK 59.2 - 70%
Adamant Choice Band Victini V-Create 61.6 - 72.8%
Adamant Choice Band Black Kyurem Outrage 60.7 - 71.4%
It's close but not quite :P
But obviously unlike both of those he can switch moves as well... And he's pretty close to their power.
Mega Medi has the strongest attack in the game, discounting some weather and choice-boosted attacks (also LO Deo-A Psycho Boost.) Let's move on.
-> A- Rain is actually so underrated at the moment. Everyone is running sand and offence, and rain destroys both team archetypes. Politoed is the best supporter for rain (the only one) and I think that rain is powerful enough for its main supporter to be A-.
LOL, more like the other way around. Sand teams are a huge annoyance to Drizzle teams and Tyranitar is everywhere which kind of makes it hard to be effective. Drizzle teams would rather face a weather less team.
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