Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Prinz]

About M Venusaur I meant that sandstorm cuts its only reliable priority. Giga Drain can act like that too, but not always and recovering just 25% with Synthesis isn't enough for a mon that should act like an answer to threats like Azumarill and Keldeo. Also, burns are annoying for Venusaur as well, if you get your Venusaur burned, especially if sandstorm is up, it won't keep itself alive for a long time. The same can be said about Azumarill of course, which is supposed to beat Keldeo, but if it gets a burn it becomes pretty useless. However, unlike Venusaur even if Azumarill fears burns much more than it, it has a better matchup against the S rank and the A+ rank mons and that's why it's in S rank itself, for being an extremely useful mon that can check lot of threats. If you give a look at S and A+ ranks anyways, you will see how Venusaur can't really switch-in on against the majority of the mons that belong in these ranks:

S rank

Azumarill => Venusaur is supposed to be the best counter of it so yeah
Charizard (Mega-X) => Wisp variants are annoying, while the other variants beat it much more easily
Keldeo => It's an ok check, even if Scald burns and HP Flying from Choice Specs hurt
Landorus => Psychic and Earth Power do a ton, can't really switch-in on this thing
Thundurus => Check, but you should scout before if it isn't carring Psychic / HP Flying or you will be in trouble

A+ rank

Charizard (Mega-Y) => Fire Blast 2HKOs
Clefable => beat it unless Stored Power
Excadrill => EQ does a ton, can't switch in I guess
Ferrothorn => beat it with HP Fire
Greninja => Extrasensory is a thing, once again can't switch-in on this thing
Gyarados (Mega) => Check, even if +1 Ice Fang hurts
Heatran => completely walled if not carrying EQ, which is uncommon now
Heracross (Mega) => Pin Missile 2HKOs
Landorus-T => EQ doesn't hit like a girl, but check
Latias => Psyshock / Psychic
Latios => see above
Pinsir (Mega) => Return
Talonflame => Brave Bird
Terrakion => Stone Edge hurts, but it's a solid check otherwise

It's also true though, that lot of these mons can't switch-in on Venusaur either because how the good coverage that Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb + HP Fire has. In summary, after have read some posts I can see the reasons why Venusaur should be a S rank pokèmon, even if I would like to see more opinions about it :).

 

[alexwolf]

I'm not arguing that hp ice is a bad choice, i'm just saying that there are more important things to kill/target as well as just maintain your neutral coverage in general. Also, as far as hp ice's use goes:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 258-304 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You do upwards of 60%, easily 2hko'ing, any relevant mon you really need to hit with hp ice, and there are much more important targets for each of shadow ball, focus blast, and hp fire.
As far as the whole timid/modest shit goes, you can outspeed garchomp with modest which is pretty respectable, considering how the meta has definitely been leaning toward slower and more bulkier teams (aka balance). Besides, if you have the skill to get megazam in safely so consistently then I think mega evolving even against offense really isn't too much of a problem.
And obviously, the difference in power is extremely apparent, as seen with a relevant example in clefable. Modest is definitely better.

The Clefable calc is almost irrelevant, as 5.9% chance to 2HKO is really small, and both Timid and Modest Mega Zam 2HKO 252 HP / 252 Def+ Clefable (with Timid you have a 91.4% chance). Also, whileyou 2HKO those Pokemon with Psychic, the point is that Mega Zam can't afford not to OHKO those Pokemon, which means that in a 1 v 1 scenario it is forced out without HP Ice, and having as more advantageous 1 v 1 match-ups is very important for a Pokemon such as Mega Zam.

Also, against offensive teams it's very important to be able to outspeed the threats i mentioned and saying that you need to have skill to MEvolve MegaZam safely is not always true, as there are many teams where the only 1 v 1 you can win is against Pokemon such as Keldeo and Terrakion. Not to mention that it's very possible that Mega Zam is your go to revenge killer after those Pokemon KO something, so not being able to outspeed them before MEvolving really sucks. All in all, Timid is a great option and i almost never have found mysefl missing on the power.

Regarding trace:
its not so much as being unreliable, b/c most of the time you'll find some use for it, but its just not nearly as consistent as some others, like landorus's sheer force, greninja's protean, char-x's tough claws, clefable's magic guard, etc, etc. Those ALWAYS are useful to the pokemon NO MATTER WHAT. Those are consistent and reliable abilities for those mons. The same certainly can't be said about mega zam.

So what? We are ranking Mega Alakazam not its ability. Mega Alakazam uses its ability to revenge kill weather sweepers and find more switch-in chances, and sometimes take advantage of some offensive abilities too, such as Protean and Sheer Force, which is just a bonus, not the primary function of Trace. Just the fact that it's able to outrun Sand Rush Excadrill is a huge boon of Trace. And Trace is reliable. When putting Mega Zam on your team, you are not thinking ''ah nice, with Trace i will be able to constantly take advantage of Sheer Force and Protean'', you are thinking ''nice, with Trace i will always be able to revenge kill weather sweepers''. The always part is what makes Trace 100% reliable. If you have high expectations of Trace and expect Mega Zam to constantly take advantage of offensive abilities such as Protean and Sheer Force, that's your fault, not Trace's, and it certainly doesn't make Trace unreliable. Oh and i don't see Keldeo, which sits at S rank have any problem being awesome even with practically no ability, so trying to present as a flaw a Pokemon's ability because it is unreliable (which Trace isn't) or situational is pointless.

That's true, but from my experience running Protect is sufficient against these mons. Use protect on the mega evo turn, and you outspeed them afterwards without a problem. You do lose out on Substitute and Taunt, but depending on the team, I think those can be forgone relatively easily. The only thing I can think of that Modest MegaZam (with Protect) loses out on is Mega Manectric, which isn't that huge really.

Anyway, I'm not really sure of where it belongs. It has slight 4mss in that it's a tossup whether it uses Protect, Taunt, or Substitute. Additionally, it hates priority, has an over-reliance on inaccurate moves, can only afford to stay in on things it can OHKO, and is also reliant on the opponent's ability. On paper, it doesn't look that great, but in practice, it actually is a really effective Pokemon. It is able to revenge kill Pokemon reliant on speed-boosting abilities, which is fantastic, and it is also able to boost its power if it traces Sheer Force or Protean. There's no doubt that it's a superb revenge killer in OU, it's just that it needs to fit in with other A- Pokemon. Since it has such little competition for its role (normal zam is really bad), and can do its job of revenge killing top tier stuff (Kabutops, Excadrill, Kingdra, Omastar, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados) incredibly well (reliance on focus miss is it's only real flaw there), I don't think its addition to A- is absurd. In my opinion Mega Dactyl is in general a better pokemon (due to being the premier bird spam offensive check) than zam, and definitely shouldn't be a tier below it. Dactyl is definitely worth bringing to A- for its stallbreaking, revengekilling, and birdspam checking abilities, and I think Zam could be too solely for its revengekilling role.

Well, if you are using Protect then of course Modest is better, but Protect is not the best option for the last slot anyway.

And can people stop saying that Mega Zam is reliant on the opponent's abilities or that Trace makes it unreliable? It's just not true, and i have already explained why.

Finally, Mega Zam is not over reliant on inaccurate moves, it's just reliant on one inaccurate move, Focus Blast. Over reliant on inaccurate moves is Hurricane + Focus Blast Tornadus-T or Draco Meteor + Hurricane + Focus Blast Noivern.

EDIT: As for why Mega Venusaur shouldn't be S rank, it's simple. It doesn't excel in any single role as much as the other Pokemon in S rank do and lacks versatility (for example i don't think that any single set of Char X is S rank worthy, but all of them combined make it an S rank threat). It's a great tank and checks a lot of threats, but it doesn't wall that much stuff and it's not that hard to wall either, while also being very easy to wear down, because a lot of the Pokemon it wants to deal with carry Scald / WoW, which in combination with SR and lack of lefties build up very fast. Not to mention the rise in usage of Psychic and Flying-types due the banning of Aegislash, namely Latios and Latias (more popular than ever), Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Alakazam, Staraptor, and Mega Aerodactyl make it even easier for offensive cores to get past Mega Venusaur or take advantage of it.

 

[Celticpride]

Conk should move up, for a few reasons. It doesn't care about status, and actually prefers it because of Guts. The AV set allows it to absorb Scalds from most things as well. STAB HP Draining is great on an AV set, and gives him staying power. Mach Punch allows him to patch his speed issue and pick off weakened threats. Knock Off gives him that elusive Fighting/Dark coverage and allows him to be a general nuisance. Conk performs especially well against stall teams. They won't status him because of Guts and almost every member except Gliscor hates Knock Off. The high HP mons also benefit his Drain Punch, allowing him to recover more health. Move Conk up.

I could see Mega Zam moving up to A- because it is one of the few things that stands a chance against weather-based sweepers. 150 speed allows it to revenge a lot of the meta anyway, Timid or not. One of the best RKers outside of Talonflame.

I would say I am in the faction against Mega Venu moving up (some of these points have been made by others above me):

• Minor Point, it's harder to get it in for the initial Mega Evolution with all the Ice Beams and Fire Blasts flying around. Every Mega suffers from this issue, the question is to what degree.
  
• It's recovery gets cut off by Weather. Granted, it can still get some HP back through Giga Drain, but what if you run into something resistant to Giga Drain like Mega Scizor or another Steel in the rain? Sand is not the only Weather to give it problems.
  
• I've run into some Mega Venusaur where you can just stall out the recovery with anything that is a 2hko. 8PP isn't a lot to get by on. There's a reason Clefable runs Soft-boiled over Moonlight, even though Soft-Boiled limits it's movepool to a degree (mostly egg moves).
• A lot of things also run Flying or Psychic coverage to get by Mega Vensaur. That's not a reason to move it up unless it gets to the point where it is centralizing. Greninja and Raikou always carry Extrasensory, especially after the Aegi ban. Raikou has no need to run Shadow Ball, and Aura Sphere comes with some set restrictions. Greninja prefers Extrasensory not only for Venu, but Keldeo and non-AV Azu. Dark Pulse helps only with Slowbro. Not really a tough call for Extrasensory>Dark Pulse.
  
• It's three move coverage on the tank set is good, there's no denying that. However, even when Modest it's attack is underwhelming compared to other Megas, and a lot of things can claim near-perfect three move coverage. I know I made the argument that not everything has to be a sweeper a few pages back, but that was for Megas moving up to B+ and A-, not S rank. Mega Venusaur would be going to S-rank as an offensive threat (right?), S-rank threats should have firepower imo.

In conclusion, I think that Mega Venu fits an A+ rank more then an S rank. It is very solid, but I feel like there are just enough holes in it's case to keep in in A+ for now.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Alright fellas, I know we just moved it up, but I really think Starmie needs to move up to at least A-, maybe A.

Starmie is the best spinner in OU right now. Excadrill is still fantastic, no doubt, but it actually has to fear the only two OU-relevant Ghost-types, Gengar and Sableye. Excadrill cannot safely throw the Rapid Spin out with those Ghosts present on the opponent's team, because if it does, and the Ghosts come in to block it, Excadrill is forced out, fearing a Wisp (from either of them) or a Focus Blast from Gengar (or a Shadow Ball if exca is weakened enough). Starmie, on the other hand, can freely throw the Rapid Spin even with Gengar on the foe's team, as even if Gengar comes in to block it, it's forced out by the threat of Psychic/Psyshock or Hydro Pump. Sableye can switch in on the Rapid Spin, and it can threaten Starmie with a Knock Off, but it has to be fully specially defensive to not just get murdered the following turn by Hydro Pump.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 274-325 (90.1 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 359-422 (118 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So Sableye isn't even safe coming in, and even if it does get in on a Rapid Spin, it has no choice but to Knock Off (assuming it even has it; some run Foul Play, which still hurts Starmie, but not nearly as badly). It can't Recover, as that would activate Analytic and get it murdered.

Starmie is also an excellent fast special attacker with wide coverage. Its no secret that Greninja fills that role better, but the fact that Starmie brings Rapid Spin to the table makes it different enough to be a great choice. It fits right in on offensive teams as a speedy spinner and check to various threats, forcing out even top threats such as Keldeo and Landorus with a little bit of prediction. Forcing switches also allows it to abuse Analytic for even more power.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 153-180 (58.3 - 68.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 116-136 (44.2 - 51.9%)

Overall, it isn't the best mon, but it fits so well on any offensive team that I think its worth of at least A- rank. Being the fastest reliable hazard remover (besides Mega Aero? I'm not sure if people use it for Defog in OU like they do in UU) is huge, and not removing the hazards you set (unlike fellow speedy hazard removers Lati@s) is another huge benefit. It will never be dead weight, and really needs more love. With Aegislash gone, Starmie doesn't deserve to be UU anymore.

tl;dr Starmie is one of, if not the best, hazard remover in OU right now. Use it, all of you.

omfg i don't get this starmie hype... if anything it should drop back to b-/c+ where it belongs... it really suffers from donphan syndrome... (not going to discuss this anymore, i made my point in the V2 thread, but...)

Anyway, I think Omastar deserves to be pushed to B-, it's a really good rain abuser that can either wallbreak/clean up (choice specs) or sweep (Shell Smash). Specs Hydro Pump in the rain hits so freaking hard, and considering Omastar outspeeds almost anything in the rain, you better hope you have something with protect to stall Drizzle turns, Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo (which fail to shell smash variants) or a Chansey, else this thing will probably mop up your team like it was nothing... it also has high defenses, meaning it can usually take a Mach Punch/Aqua Jet, and doesn't care about Talonflame's Brave Bird.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

omfg i don't get this starmie hype... if anything it should drop back to b-/c+ where it belongs... it really suffers from donphan syndrome... (not going to discuss this anymore, i made my point in the V2 thread, but...)

Starmie is quite good in this meta right now, but I agree that it shouldn't rise into A-, in the future maybe but right now A- is pushing it.

 

[Jaroda]

I agree that Conkeldurr should move to B/B+. Fighting priority is becoming more useful with Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Kabutops/Omastar, SR Excadrill, and Terrakion for example. And AV actually makes him a good check to Landorus with Ice Punch.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 157-187 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 211-250 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

He has numerous positive matchups with A- and above with Ice Punch and Knock Off for his coverage options, he's amazing switching into Scald and WoW (watch out Gengar/Mew/Heatran/Rotom-W), and there's even the option of Thunder Punch for a good answer for Skarmory, Slowbro, Azumaril (44 Spe EVs let you outspeed for surprise Thunder Punch KO against Belly Sitrus), Alolomola, Suicune, Politoed and Keldeo.

Knock Off is great against the Lati defoggers, Mew as was mentioned, and for rising stars like Victini and Celebi. If you have Knock Off elsewhere on your team, I'd actually probably go Thunder and Ice Punch for your coverage as it's a devastating combo against most of the highest ranked. He's also relatively easy to Wish pass to.

Megazam I think is fine in B+. As far as the 150 Spe Megamon revenge killers are concerned, I think Aerodactly is a more reliable choice considering it's good against a few priority types and has access to Roost. I think it's a consistency issue, but both are fine in B+ if you ask me.

Mega Venusaur is definitely not S material. The current metagame is prepared and the popular styles are just not in his favor. He's still amazing and a pain to take out if your answer for him gets eliminated though.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Going to agree that Starmie shouldn't rise. I've tested both sets and simply put it has pretty noticeable flaws. If you go full out offensive you're worn down so easily it's awful, meaning you can't reliably spin and thanks to your terrible bulk can be fairly easily picked off. The defensive spinner does spin very well but it's ultimately passive and still has disappointing bulk considering investment. Both sets are good and have improved since the Aegislash ban, however I don't see them as top tier for those reasons, and certainly not A- worthy. The offensive set is a good revenge killer with impressive coverage, and the defensive spinner is reliable, but there's nothing about either in my experience (both using and fighting against it) that has made me see Starmie as one of the more noteworthy mons.

Conkeldurr is brilliant though and deserves to rise. Knock off is hard to switch into when you consider the fighting STAB, the bulk it has with assault vest means it's not going down without at the very least severely denting something, and an elemental punch allows it to bait certain threats (most noteably ice punch for Lando-T and Gliscor). I've also noticed that Conkeldurr forms a nice offensive core with Mega Medicham, baiting and eliminating Slowbro, Mew and Landorus-T which are the few mons that give Mega Medicham issues. C is an insult to it and even with Aegislash around it was better than that (though it was also admittedly overhyped).

Mega Venusaur I'm on the fence about. It's pretty hard to wear down if you don't pack super effective coverage, and is threatening enough that it needs to always be thought about when team building so it doesn't wall your entire team. It has decent offensive presence (not passive by any means, though I wouldn't say it's powerful) and can take out many threats 1-on-1 as described earlier. However it has unreliable recovery which has been highlighted by the sand offense rise, and it doesn't care for bird spam at all. That being said, checking otherwise extremely troublesome threats in Keldeo, Azu, non-HP flying Thundurus etc. should not be taken for granted and it should always be considered for a teamslot if you need glue for some of the most threatening mons in the tier. I could definitely see it in S but A+ is reasonable when you consider how much it suffers in the metagame currently.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Mega Alakazam (B+) -> A- | I'm supporting this move up. I've found out the flexibility of Mega Alakazam's nature allows it to function as a revenge killer (Timid) or sweeper (Modest); Timid outspeeds even several Scarfers and Pokémon like bulky DDZard X, but Modest just hits a truckload harder and makes it a lethal sweeping Pokémon. Trace is just a badass Ability since there's just so much good stuff to Trace: notable are Landorus-I's Sheer Force, Thundurus-I's Prankster, Landorus-T's Intimidate, Gliscor's Poison Heal, Alomomola's Regenerator, Clefable's Magic Guard, Speed-buffing weather Abilities... The list's a lot longer, but I'm not gonna type everything down. Since Mega Alakazam likes to abuse Trace, Psychic is a great STAB, as a Modest Sheer Force Psychic just hurts. It's reliant on Focus Blast for coverage, but coverage reliance shouldn't be a factor for a Pokémon's overall viability. Taunt gives it the power to shut Stall teams down and, as noted before, Trace can copy Thundurus-I's Prankster and Mega Alakazam can Taunt it before Thundurus can T-Wave the brains.
It's still plagued by its overall frailty, poor defensive typing, being Pursuit bait and Trace sometimes copying shitty/useless Abilities, but Mega Alakazam's positive traits more than make up for its flaws. Overall, it's deserving of A-.

This post is to be updated at a later point.

 

[alexwolf]

Conkeldurr is brilliant though and deserves to rise. Knock off is hard to switch into when you consider the fighting STAB, the bulk it has with assault vest means it's not going down without at the very least severely denting something, and an elemental punch allows it to bait certain threats (most noteably ice punch for Lando-T and Gliscor). I've also noticed that Conkeldurr forms a nice offensive core with Mega Medicham, baiting and eliminating Slowbro, Mew and Landorus-T which are the few mons that give Mega Medicham issues. C is an insult to it and even with Aegislash around it was better than that (though it was also admittedly overhyped).

Conk is not hard at all to wall, here is a list of Pokemon that always wall the AV set, and of Pokemon that wall the AV set except from a certain coverage move:

• Azumarill (outside of Poison Jab)
  
• SpD Mega Charizard Y (outside of Stone Edge)
• Roost Talonflame (outside of Stone Edge)
  
• Clefable (outside of Poison Jab)
• Gyarados (outside of Stone Edge)
• Mega Heracross
• Mega Pinsir (outside of Stone Edge and Ice Punch, only Stone Edge before MEvolving)
• Landorus-T (outside of Ice Punch)
• Gliscor (outside of Ice Punch)
• Mega Venusaur
• Mew
• Mega Scizor
• Slowbro
• Amoonguss (outside of Ice Punch)
• Suicune
• Starmie (outside of Knock Off)

And there are few other great checks that are able to switch into most of its moves at least once and threaten to OHKO it, such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham.

You also say that Conk lures and eliminates Slowbro for Mega Medicham which is not true, as Slowbro walls it even if it has Knock Off.

AV Conkeldurr is 100% dead weight against any defensive team, is slow as fuck and needs to take a hit before dishing one most of the time, is easy to wear down without reliable recovery, doesn't wall a lot of Pokemon, needs 5 moveslots to be not be easy as fuck to wall, and it doesn't even hit that hard. B- is perfect for it, it's in way comparable with much better and reliable Pokemon such as Celebi, Staraptor, and Zapdos.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Conk is not hard at all to wall, here is a list of Pokemon that always wall the AV set, and of Pokemon that wall the AV set except from a certain coverage move:

• Azumarill (outside of Poison Jab)
  
• SpD Mega Charizard Y (outside of Stone Edge)
• Roost Talonflame (outside of Stone Edge)
  
• Clefable (outside of Poison Jab)
• Gyarados (outside of Stone Edge)
• Mega Heracross
• Mega Pinsir (outside of Stone Edge and Ice Punch, only Stone Edge before MEvolving)
• Landorus-T (outside of Ice Punch)
• Gliscor (outside of Ice Punch)
• Mega Venusaur
• Mew
• Mega Scizor
• Slowbro
• Amoonguss (outside of Ice Punch)
• Suicune
• Starmie (outside of Knock Off)

And there are few other great checks that are able to switch into most of its moves at least once and threaten to OHKO it, such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham.

You also say that Conk lures and eliminates Slowbro for Mega Medicham which is not true, as Slowbro walls it even if it has Knock Off.

AV Conkeldurr is 100% dead weight against any defensive team, is slow as fuck and needs to take a hit before dishing one most of the time, is easy to wear down without reliable recovery, doesn't wall a lot of Pokemon, needs 5 moveslots to be not be easy as fuck to wall, and it doesn't even hit that hard. B- is perfect for it, it's in way comparable with much better and reliable Pokemon such as Celebi, Staraptor, and Zapdos.

The idea behind Conkeldurr assisting Medicham is that you would specifically tailor its set to what Medicham can't handle with it's own coverage, so in that sense the two do work. Knock off is almost always a given with Conk so I don't think it can be generally assumed it lacks that move. Amoonguss can be outsped after a knock off and damaged with ice punch, Mew detests it and is heavily damaged on the switch in, Starmie is easy to wear down and usually can only revenge thanks to knock off being so spammable. I'm on mobile now so apologies for being unable to back up what I'm saying with calcs but I will do at a later time. The idea is that Conkeldurr baits similar things and can eliminate or wear them down. What they both hate is what you have 4 other members for. If core was the wrong word then I apologise.

I definitely wouldn't say it's dead weight against defensive teams when it loves toxic, chansey is free healing and defensive teams love their items. I accept it is far from unwallable but I definitely feel it's underestimated.

 

[alexwolf]

The idea behind Conkeldurr assisting Medicham is that you would specifically tailor its set to what Medicham can't handle with it's own coverage, so in that sense the two do work. Knock off is almost always a given with Conk so I don't think it can be generally assumed it lacks that move. Amoonguss can be outsped after a knock off and damaged with ice punch, Mew detests it and is heavily damaged on the switch in, Starmie is easy to wear down and usually can only revenge thanks to knock off being so spammable. I'm on mobile now so apologies for being unable to back up what I'm saying with calcs but I will do at a later time. The idea is that Conkeldurr baits similar things and can eliminate or wear them down. What they both hate is what you have 4 other members for. If core was the wrong word then I apologise.

I definitely wouldn't say it's dead weight against defensive teams when it loves toxic, chansey is free healing and defensive teams love their items. I accept it is far from unwallable but I definitely feel it's underestimated.

Knock Off is not a must at all because all three of Ice Punch, Poison Jab, and Stone Edge are really useful moves for Conk, and Knock Off doesn't hit that many of Conk's checks and counters anyway.

Moving on, i already said that Amoonguss beats Conk if it lacks Ice Punch, physically defensive mew avoids the 2HKO from burned Conk's Knock Off as long as Mew's Leftovers have been already removed and is able to slowly kill Conk with burn damage, defensive Starmie is not easy at all to wear down and Starmie can slowly KO a burned Conk without Knock Off.

And btw, Pursuit Bisharp is a way better partner for Mega Medicham, being able to Pursuit trap the Pokemon that wall Mega Medicham, such as Slowbro, Cresselia, physically defensive Celebi, and Mew (the last one depends on the situation), and not stacking Flying weaknesses as Conkeldurr does. But i don't really care about the core, i was judging Conkeldurr individually.

 

[Jaroda]

Conk is not hard at all to wall, here is a list of Pokemon that always wall the AV set, and of Pokemon that wall the AV set except from a certain coverage move:

• Azumarill (outside of Poison Jab)
  
• SpD Mega Charizard Y (outside of Stone Edge)
• Roost Talonflame (outside of Stone Edge)
  
• Clefable (outside of Poison Jab)
• Gyarados (outside of Stone Edge)
• Mega Heracross
• Mega Pinsir (outside of Stone Edge and Ice Punch, only Stone Edge before MEvolving)
• Landorus-T (outside of Ice Punch)
• Gliscor (outside of Ice Punch)
• Mega Venusaur
• Mew
• Mega Scizor
• Slowbro
• Amoonguss (outside of Ice Punch)
• Suicune
• Starmie (outside of Knock Off)

And there are few other great checks that are able to switch into most of its moves at least once and threaten to OHKO it, such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham.

You also say that Conk lures and eliminates Slowbro for Mega Medicham which is not true, as Slowbro walls it even if it has Knock Off.

AV Conkeldurr is 100% dead weight against any defensive team, is slow as fuck and needs to take a hit before dishing one most of the time, is easy to wear down without reliable recovery, doesn't wall a lot of Pokemon, needs 5 moveslots to be not be easy as fuck to wall, and it doesn't even hit that hard. B- is perfect for it, it's in way comparable with much better and reliable Pokemon such as Celebi, Staraptor, and Zapdos.

At the very least virtually all AV sets carry Ice Punch so I wouldn't call Landorus-T and Gliscor walls, although Gliscor with Toxic shenanigans can win often enough.

I also wouldn't recommend Poison Jab in the least over Thunder Punch. Clefable just demolishes with Moonblast as is, and Thunder Punch helps against Azumaril on top of several other things you listed like Gyarados, Char Y, Slowbro, Suicune and Starmie. Helps with Skarmory too.

And while it doesn't do great against stall, it's bulk still makes it a good road block against many faster sweepers. It fulfills several roles at once and pretty decently. Solid B in my book.

 

[escarlata]

I fully agree with Alakazam going to A-. It is among the best revenge killers in this tier, along with Talonflame, MAero and CBNite. Being able to rip sand offense apart after TTar is gone is just friggin good to have in this metagame. Trace is a fantastic ability in this metagame where many significant threats are there because so many things have nice ability to Trace. If it happens to get a good ability, it even gets a good chance to sweep with its good power and speed. Base 150 speed is simply amazingly fast, being able to outspeed several stuff even after DD. Trace gives stalls teams lots of trouble as well, for being able to take advantage of the very common Poison Heal, Regenerator, Nature Cure, Intimidate mons that are everywhere. Taunt/Encore even makes it better for Alakazam vs stall needs.

Imo Jirachi to C+/B- are pretty reasonable. While I don't have much experience with Jirachi, just by comparison, I find it pretty similar to Bronzong, in terms of movepool, bulk, and movepool. And since it does more variety of stuff than the latter, I just believe Jirachi should at least be a sub-rank higher than Bronzong.

omfg i don't get this starmie hype... if anything it should drop back to b-/c+ where it belongs... it really suffers from donphan syndrome... (not going to discuss this anymore, i made my point in the V2 thread, but...)

I'm surprised that people still try to advocate for Starmie to drop.
I see the phrase "Donphan syndrome" and I'm irked because that term is so misused to describe Starmie. Donphan is outclassed in each individual role, Starmie merely faces competition from the individual roles and is in no way outclassed. Without even having to mention what gives it competition it, it is pretty damn obvious because there are only 2 Pokemons that does so - Greninja and Excadril.

To make the comparison with Greninja, for the sake of relevance to the metagame, I'm gonna define outclass as "Using this Pokemon makes your team worse compared to a superior alternative" If the alternative does not help you beat more stuff then it is not outclassed.
Yes sure Greninja is faster and hits slightly harder but does it matter? 3 SAtk is not a big difference, and there is nothing significant in the speed tier between 115 and 122. Most common Greninja sets and Starmie sets are almost identical since Greninja mostly run Extrasensory over Dark Pulse. The only advantage is that Greninja has is that it gets STAB on Ice Beam, which sounds good, except the only thing Greninja OHKOs with STAB Ice Beam that Starmie doesn't is Dragonite (which destroys Greninja with CB ESpeed anyway). Simply put, Starmie is just a Greninja that opts to run Rapid Spin (which it doesn't learn), over another offensive move. If you think Greninja outclasses Starmie, then ask yourself "Does using Rapid Spin on Greninja make your team worse than using a coverage Hidden Power?". Answer for that question is likely no, because if you need spin support, then it is worth using.

Excadril is the only other viable spinner, but they are not even remotely comparable in spinning. Excadril relies on Scarf or sand support to spin reliably, meaning it can spin less liberally. Starmie is naturally fast so it can spin at more reliable times. They do have distinct advantage over each other, but their only similarity is the ability to spin. Saying Excadril is a better spinner than Starmie is like saying Scizor is a better SDer than Garchomp - there is no point of comparison other than a single move.

EDIT: Frequently used counterarguments:
1: "Greninja has Protean so it is better than Starmie"
The only common move that Greninja gets STAB on and Starmie doesn't is Ice Beam, HP Fire, and Grass Knot. Ice Beam from Starmie kills everything that Greninja does minus Dragonite. Greninja takes 8x% at min, which means a single round of LO recoil and it's dead. Not that many Dragonite stays at full health anyway. HP Fire and Grass Knot are irrelevant because if you need a spinner then you do need to give something up. That's why Latias can give up coverage for Defog for example.

2: "Defoggers are better than Starmie"
Is you use a suicide lead on offense like Azelf, Mamoswine etc you totally want to Defog.

3: "ScarfTar and Tornadus -T are in the speed tier in between"
ScarfTar relies on 50/50 to bear Starmie, Greninja relies on 50/50 to beat Ttar. Greninja doesn't want to stay in in Torn-T either in case AV.

4: "Greninja can use HP Fire and Grass Knot"
Starmie can use HP Fire too if Ferro/Scizor is a concern. Starmie has Tbolt for the same targets of GK. Not that Greninja can OHKO them with GK either, even with STAB.

5: "<insert Pokemon here> gives Starmie competition"
Greninja is the only one that gives competition, but as I have illustrated, using Starmie doesn't make your team worse than using Greninja if you need a spinner.
Saying <anything else> outclassed Starmie as a hazard remover is the worst possible argument because we have like tons of Pokemon in B+ to A, and they are obviously better than others several ways. Inb4 Latis, no. Starmie is faster, and that speed matters because the 110 speed tier is pretty crowded.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Knock Off is not a must at all because all three of Ice Punch, Poison Jab, and Stone Edge are really useful moves for Conk, and Knock Off doesn't hit that many of Conk's checks and counters anyway.

Moving on, i already said that Amoonguss beats Conk if it lacks Ice Punch, physically defensive mew avoids the 2HKO from burned Conk's Knock Off as long as Mew's Leftovers have been already removed and is able to slowly kill Conk with burn damage, defensive Starmie is not easy at all to wear down and Starmie can slowly KO a burned Conk without Knock Off.

And btw, Pursuit Bisharp is a way better partner for Mega Medicham, being able to Pursuit trap the Pokemon that wall Mega Medicham, such as Slowbro, Cresselia, physically defensive Celebi, and Mew (the last one depends on the situation), and not stacking Flying weaknesses as Conkeldurr does. But i don't really care about the core, i was judging Conkeldurr individually.

Knock off isn't for checks as much as it is brilliant utility and it's definitely worth the moveslot as it's less situational.

I appear to have overselled Conk's power which I fully accept, though when you take into account team mates and even minor prior damage, Conk can finish a lot of key threats successfully, including a lot of those checks, which is what I meant by it luring things Medicham can then deal with much easier.

That's an interesting core. Celebi seems to run baton pass a lot lately though and Bisharp is fairly easy to wear down, but I accept it checks a lot of Cham's threats well. I only mentioned Conkeldurr and Cham due to personally having success with the two together, but it's not bird spam 2.0 by any means.

 

[alexwolf]

Knock off isn't for checks as much as it is brilliant utility and it's definitely worth the moveslot as it's less situational.

I know what Knock Off is used for, the point is that coverage against checks > general utility in a lot of cases, especially on a Pokemon that has trouble taking advantage of Knock Off correctly because of its small lifespan. Most of the time you are better off catching your checks on the switch with the right coverage move than spamming Knock Off.

 

[Clone]

Tbh conk isn't really even that bad. He doesn't die thanks to AV, and can act as a utility check to most mons in the tier that can't hit him super effectively. On top of that, he has a great base 140 attack and absorbs all status bar sleep and freeze cuz of Guts, and doesn't really gaf about para cuz he's so slow regardless (full para is a bitch tho).

He's also able to beat some would be checks with certain coverage moves. Jab 2HKOes Azu and clef, and the former can be crept to outright KO, while the latter can only 2HKO with Moonblast on the defensive set Unboosted. Talonflame and Pinsir are raped by stone edge, who would otherwise be able to switch in quite easily (ice punch 2hkoes Pinsir iirc and that's only when Megad). Drain Punch also allows conk to heal himself quite reliably which prevents him from being worn down like other utility checks such as AV. Azu. Mach Punh rounds everything out by bypassing his speed issues while still being quite powerful.

I think it's also worth mentioning that sand offense has trouble with him cuz TTar and Exca are beaten by him, and other members can be handled by teammates.

Of course, there's gonna be shit like Venu and Skarm who wall him no matter what, but that's why he should be in B and not in the A ranks. Random psychic and flying coverage meant to hit Venu and Hera hurt him quite a bit as well, but most non stab SE hits can only 2HKO anyways, and even that can be avoided with drain punch.

Conk should rise to B, but no higher. He's under selled quite a bit and is right at home on balance offense and bulky offense, and simply doesn't die. He absorbs status and won't go down without denting or KOing whatever he's facing, and fits right in with the B. Rank definition.

Conk to B pls

 

[Srn]

The Clefable calc is almost irrelevant, as 5.9% chance to 2HKO is really small, and both Timid and Modest Mega Zam 2HKO 252 HP / 252 Def+ Clefable (with Timid you have a 91.4% chance). Also, whileyou 2HKO those Pokemon with Psychic, the point is that Mega Zam can't afford not to OHKO those Pokemon, which means that in a 1 v 1 scenario it is forced out without HP Ice, and having as more advantageous 1 v 1 match-ups is very important for a Pokemon such as Mega Zam.

Also, against offensive teams it's very important to be able to outspeed the threats i mentioned and saying that you need to have skill to MEvolve MegaZam safely is not always true, as there are many teams where the only 1 v 1 you can win is against Pokemon such as Keldeo and Terrakion. Not to mention that it's very possible that Mega Zam is your go to revenge killer after those Pokemon KO something, so not being able to outspeed them before MEvolving really sucks. All in all, Timid is a great option and i almost never have found mysefl missing on the power.

I can see where you're going with the whole hp ice argument, where OHKO'ing is far more important but is mega zam really supposed to found on offensive teams in the first place? I personally don't want to rely on a revenge killer that needs to Mevolve some time before regardless to actually do its "job." I find mzam at home in balanced teams where its just a fast and powerful mon with a good amount of support to get in. Basically, your targets should be weakened down with the weak attacks of the supporting mons on your balanced team where mzam works best.

Seeing as I do use mzam on these type of teams (which need the power), I've found that the power loss is really detrimental :[ That's just my stance on it.

So what? We are ranking Mega Alakazam not its ability. Mega Alakazam uses its ability to revenge kill weather sweepers and find more switch-in chances, and sometimes take advantage of some offensive abilities too, such as Protean and Sheer Force, which is just a bonus, not the primary function of Trace. Just the fact that it's able to outrun Sand Rush Excadrill is a huge boon of Trace. And Trace is reliable. When putting Mega Zam on your team, you are not thinking ''ah nice, with Trace i will be able to constantly take advantage of Sheer Force and Protean'', you are thinking ''nice, with Trace i will always be able to revenge kill weather sweepers''. The always part is what makes Trace 100% reliable. If you have high expectations of Trace and expect Mega Zam to constantly take advantage of offensive abilities such as Protean and Sheer Force, that's your fault, not Trace's, and it certainly doesn't make Trace unreliable. Oh and i don't see Keldeo, which sits at S rank have any problem being awesome even with practically no ability, so trying to present as a flaw a Pokemon's ability because it is unreliable (which Trace isn't) or situational is pointless.

Allright there are far better ways to actually revenge kill weather sweepers and mzam should not be your go to weather RK'er, you make it seem like it was born for that role or something.
First off, you're revenging excadrill with focus blast. Do I even need to point out the problems here? There are FAR more reliable ways to take care of excadrill, namely just bulk or priority. You can even set up on it with some specific mons, like DD lando-t. Not to mention that you can't even switch-in and you need to come in after a kill or on a double to even trace the mon's ability.
Second, looking at other rain sweepers, you basically have kingdra and kabutops. Well revenging kabutops is out of the picture:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam in Rain: 185-218 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gonna be tough to stay healthy enough to take that, especially with the loss of magic guard. And obviously if they SD you're toast. (Atleast you don't have to rely on focus blast here. Just kidding if you're Timid you do zzzzz)
And then Kingdra:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kingdra: 235-277 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Most kingdra are specs, and this is considering absolute best case scenario where its mixed LO. Even THEN, you STILL can't reliably revenge kill kingdra. Not to mention this calc is Modest, Timid is far worse...

So you need to rely on focus blast to revenge kill excadrill, need to stay above 87% to revenge kill kabutops, and need 20% residual (more if you're timid) to revenge kill Kingdra. Sure, trace copies swift swim/sand rush, but you're far from reliable at actually revenge killing them.

As far as keldeo and abilities go, welp keldeo is kind of ridiculously amazing when it comes to stats and typing. The thing is, keldeo's ability still is a flaw. You definitely will see "useless ability" in the cons section of Keldeo, its just so good otherwise that it doesn't really matter. Presenting a pokemon's ability as a flaw because it is unreliable, situational, or just completely pointless is totally valid lol.

Just look at every pokemon in A-, A, A+, or S. I can go all the way down the list and tell you that the only pokemon whose abilities are rather situational is really just mew. EVERY OTHER pokemon uses its ability consistently and its generally very helpful to them no matter what. Even oblivious from mamoswine just makes it a top tier offensive lead, even rough skin from garchomp provides chip damage that you really can't go wrong without, even terrakion's justified REALLY makes an opponent think twice before they knock off or foul play.
Then you look at Trace, an ability that you need a free switch-in to actually use, can only be useful against a fraction of the metagame, and can't actually consistently benefit the pokemon (unlike pretty much any other ability of any other relevant pokemon in the tier zzzz)

No matter how you try to dance around it, Trace is unreliable and inconsistent compared to the abilities of other relevant pokemon in the OU metagame.

 

[alexwolf]

I can see where you're going with the whole hp ice argument, where OHKO'ing is far more important but is mega zam really supposed to found on offensive teams in the first place? I personally don't want to rely on a revenge killer that needs to Mevolve some time before regardless to actually do its "job." I find mzam at home in balanced teams where its just a fast and powerful mon with a good amount of support to get in. Basically, your targets should be weakened down with the weak attacks of the supporting mons on your balanced team where mzam works best.

Seeing as I do use mzam on these type of teams (which need the power), I've found that the power loss is really detrimental :[ That's just my stance on it.



Allright there are far better ways to actually revenge kill weather sweepers and mzam should not be your go to weather RK'er, you make it seem like it was born for that role or something.
First off, you're revenging excadrill with focus blast. Do I even need to point out the problems here? There are FAR more reliable ways to take care of excadrill, namely just bulk or priority. You can even set up on it with some specific mons, like DD lando-t. Not to mention that you can't even switch-in and you need to come in after a kill or on a double to even trace the mon's ability.
Second, looking at other rain sweepers, you basically have kingdra and kabutops. Well revenging kabutops is out of the picture:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam in Rain: 185-218 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gonna be tough to stay healthy enough to take that, especially with the loss of magic guard. And obviously if they SD you're toast. (Atleast you don't have to rely on focus blast here. Just kidding if you're Timid you do zzzzz)
And then Kingdra:
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kingdra: 235-277 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Most kingdra are specs, and this is considering absolute best case scenario where its mixed LO. Even THEN, you STILL can't reliably revenge kill kingdra. Not to mention this calc is Modest, Timid is far worse...

So you need to rely on focus blast to revenge kill excadrill, need to stay above 87% to revenge kill kabutops, and need 20% residual (more if you're timid) to revenge kill Kingdra. Sure, trace copies swift swim/sand rush, but you're far from reliable at actually revenge killing them.

As far as keldeo and abilities go, welp keldeo is kind of ridiculously amazing when it comes to stats and typing. The thing is, keldeo's ability still is a flaw. You definitely will see "useless ability" in the cons section of Keldeo, its just so good otherwise that it doesn't really matter. Presenting a pokemon's ability as a flaw because it is unreliable, situational, or just completely pointless is totally valid lol.

Just look at every pokemon in A-, A, A+, or S. I can go all the way down the list and tell you that the only pokemon whose abilities are rather situational is really just mew. EVERY OTHER pokemon uses its ability consistently and its generally very helpful to them no matter what. Even oblivious from mamoswine just makes it a top tier offensive lead, even rough skin from garchomp provides chip damage that you really can't go wrong without, even terrakion's justified REALLY makes an opponent think twice before they knock off or foul play.
Then you look at Trace, an ability that you need a free switch-in to actually use, can only be useful against a fraction of the metagame, and can't actually consistently benefit the pokemon (unlike pretty much any other ability of any other relevant pokemon in the tier zzzz)

No matter how you try to dance around it, Trace is unreliable and inconsistent compared to the abilities of other relevant pokemon in the OU metagame.

There are three things wrong with this. The first is that you assume ideal situations for the opponent and bad ones for Mega Zam. You say that doing 80% damage minimum to Kingdra is not good enough, while with the tiniest bit of previous damage you can OHKO it (and you still have a great chance to do with SR on the field). Then you say that Kabutops can OHKO Mega Zam with Aqua Jet with the tiniest bit of previous damage, contradicting your previous statement.

The second thing is that argue that low accuracy on a coverage move makes something less viable, which is not true. If it was true, Pokemon that relied on Focus Blast to get past checks and counters wouldn't have been banned, such as Landorus in 5th gen, or Durant in RU / NU at some point iirc. Not to mention that you started blaming Trace for making Mega Zam unreliable, and then you went into blaming Focus Blast for making Mega Zam unreliable, which shows how uncertain you are of your claims. And i never said that Mega Zam should be your only answer to things such as Excadrill, as Mega Zam can't even switch into it directly. Mega Zam is just a catch-almost-all revenge killer that in combination with some priority and some solid bulky mons can shield your team from any sweeper and fast attacker. Also, stop mentioning how Mega Zam can't switch into stuff, revenge killers are not supposed to switch into stuff, that's why they are called revenge killers.

Finally, the lack of a good ability is not a flaw. A flaw is something you have to compensate for when teambuilding or battling. For example, Mega Zard X is weak to SR, so i have to compensate for this by including some anti-hazard support or playing very offensively. Do i have to compensate for Keldeo's lack of ability when teambuilding or playing? No.

 

[Jaroda]

Well one of the key differences between A and B tier is a pokemon's reliance on team support vs autonomy. So I think the case should be made in this regard. Does MegaZam need a lot of support to be a good revenge killer? And does he do it better than other pokemon of similar roles. My experience with MegaZam is limited, I'm more curious as to the arguments.

 

[Srn]

There are three things wrong with this. The first is that you assume ideal situations for the opponent and bad ones for Mega Zam. You say that doing 80% damage minimum to Kingdra is not good enough, while with the tiniest bit of previous damage you can OHKO it (and you still have a great chance to do with SR on the field). Then you say that Kabutops can OHKO Mega Zam with Aqua Jet with the tiniest bit of previous damage, contradicting your previous statement.

The second thing is that argue that low accuracy on a coverage move makes something less viable, which is not true. If it was true, Pokemon that relied on Focus Blast to get past checks and counters wouldn't have been banned, such as Landorus in 5th gen, or Durant in RU / NU at some point iirc. Not to mention that you started blaming Trace for making Mega Zam unreliable, and then you went into blaming Focus Blast for making Mega Zam unreliable, which shows how uncertain you are of your claims. And i never said that Mega Zam should be your only answer to things such as Excadrill, as Mega Zam can't even switch into it directly. Mega Zam is just a catch-almost-all revenge killer that in combination with some priority and some solid bulky mons can shield your team from any sweeper and fast attacker. Also, stop mentioning how Mega Zam can't switch into stuff, revenge killers are not supposed to switch into stuff, that's why they are called revenge killers.

Finally, the lack of a good ability is not a flaw. A flaw is something you have to compensate for when teambuilding or battling. For example, Mega Zard X is weak to SR, so i have to compensate for this by including some anti-hazard support or playing very offensively. Do i have to compensate for Keldeo's lack of ability when teambuilding or playing? No.

Remember that was rash kingdra with no hp investment. That was me taking mzam's best case scenario, modest too! If you REALLY want me to take the worst case scenario, this is it:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 193-228 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, that's not good enough ._.
regarding kabutops, I shouldn't need to keep a revenge killer above 87% for it to do its job anyways lol. This is supposed to be one of its main perks too >_>

The second part is not me trying to make mzam seem less viable lol where did you get that from. All I'm trying to say is that you're revenging excadrill with focus blast and that's unreliable. Unreliable =/= unviable.
Next, I'm calling trace unreliable, I'm not calling mega zam unreliable.
Finally, just because they're revenge killers, its still nice to switch into something. You can see scarf chomp and scarf lando-t and scarf keldeo and scarf zone and they can definitely switch into some pretty potent attackers and live a hit. Even excadrill itself can switch into some mons semi-reliably, or atleast take a hit. Mzam just cannot switch-in, whether its supposed to or not. And that sucks.

Lastly, idk what you're talking about in regards to flaw, that seems kinda specific. A flaw is simply an imperfection, it doesn't really have anything to do with requiring compensation. Disregarding the specifics, mega zam's ability, trace, ultimately isn't as consistent or reliable as the abilities of some other pokemon, and that holds it back.

 

[Zibbity]

Why do people say Skarmory walls Conkeldurr when Drain Punch is going to suck the life out of a roosting Skarm? That is not a counter. Conkeldurr can do more than just AV + Guts, Conk can do Sheer Force + Life Orb to deal heavy damage to switchins. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-shitty-gimmicks.3489313/page-49#post-5642394 And so Conkeldurr can do a Sheer Force + Life Orb Poison Jab to OHKO Azumarill switchins and heavily damages Clefable even if fully defensive. The brown man has coverage moves to hit his 'counters' very hard if not destroy them and it's this attitude that AV Guts is the only set worth using that is keeping Smogon from realizing its full potential. If there is a better Sheer Force + Life Orb user than is physically offensive, I don't know.

 

[alexwolf]

Remember that was rash kingdra with no hp investment. That was me taking mzam's best case scenario, modest too! If you REALLY want me to take the worst case scenario, this is it:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 193-228 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, that's not good enough ._.
regarding kabutops, I shouldn't need to keep a revenge killer above 87% for it to do its job anyways lol. This is supposed to be one of its main perks too >_>

The second part is not me trying to make mzam seem less viable lol where did you get that from. All I'm trying to say is that you're revenging excadrill with focus blast and that's unreliable. Unreliable =/= unviable.
Next, I'm calling trace unreliable, I'm not calling mega zam unreliable.
Finally, just because they're revenge killers, its still nice to switch into something. You can see scarf chomp and scarf lando-t and scarf keldeo and scarf zone and they can definitely switch into some pretty potent attackers and live a hit. Even excadrill itself can switch into some mons semi-reliably, or atleast take a hit. Mzam just cannot switch-in, whether its supposed to or not. And that sucks.

Lastly, idk what you're talking about in regards to flaw, that seems kinda specific. A flaw is simply an imperfection, it doesn't really have anything to do with requiring compensation. Disregarding the specifics, mega zam's ability, trace, ultimately isn't as consistent or reliable as the abilities of some other pokemon, and that holds it back.

Didn't see that you used Modest for Kingdra, so my bad.

In order to not go to a quote and semantics war, Mega Zam can revenge kill almost every single threat, including weather sweepers, even if some of them need a bit of prior damage, which is not hard to get on mid-game wallbreakers such as Kingdra. It's not the perfect revenge killer, but still one of the best ones that needs little to no support in order to do its job. What it does need support with though, is to switch in, take on priroity and some scarfers, and get past some defensive teams.

I argued for Mega Zam to go to A- and then you disagreed with me by presenting Focus Blast and Trace's unreliability as reasons for it not to rise, aka reasons against its viability as an A- rank Pokemon. Unreliable does not equal to viable, but those two have a correlation which you can't ignore.

You also keep on calling Trace unreliable, but you support it with nothing other than this empty claim. Unreliable is something that doesn't always work as you expected it to, and when putting Mega Zam to your team the only thing you consider Trace for is outspeeding weather sweepers. That's it. Anything else is a bonus that no good players relies on. If you find Trace unreliable that's your fault for having higher expectations, not Trace's. And if you are calling Trace unreliable, you are also calling Mega Zam unreliable, do i even have to explain why?

Finally, about flaws, that's just the way it works in analyses and in real battle scenarios, so that's where i am getting this from. Don't take the dictionary meaning, take the Smogon meaning. Do we use the dictionary meaning to describe the word uncompetitive in Smogon? Of course no. A flaw is something you have to make up for in either teambuilding or battling, that's as simple of a concept as it gets. And if you still believe that Keldeo's lack of a good ability is a flaw, then the lack of perfection in any aspect of any Pokemon could be described as a flaw. Similarly to the ''Keldeo's Justified is a flaw because it could have a better ability'' i could say that ''Greninja's 122 Speed is a flaw because it could be higher in order to outspeed more Pokemon'', but of course that would make absolutely no sense right?

 

[Srn]

Didn't see that you used Modest for Kingdra, so my bad.

In order to not go to a quote and semantics war, Mega Zam can revenge kill almost every single threat, including weather sweepers, even if some of them need a bit of prior damage, which is not hard to get on mid-game wallbreakers such as Kingdra. It's not the perfect revenge killer, but still one of the best ones that needs little to no support in order to do its job. What it does need support with though, is to switch in, take on priroity and some scarfers, and get past some defensive teams.

I argued for Mega Zam to go to A- and then you disagreed with me by presenting Focus Blast and Trace's unreliability as reasons for it not to rise, aka reasons against its viability as an A- rank Pokemon. Unreliable does not equal to viable, but those two have a correlation which you can't ignore.

You also keep on calling Trace unreliable, but you support it with nothing other than this empty claim. Unreliable is something that doesn't always work as you expected it to, and when putting Mega Zam to your team the only thing you consider Trace for is outspeeding weather sweepers. That's it. Anything else is a bonus that no good players relies on. If you find Trace unreliable that's your fault for having higher expectations, not Trace's. And if you are calling Trace unreliable, you are also calling Mega Zam unreliable, do i even have to explain why?

Finally, about flaws, that's just the way it works in analyses and in real battle scenarios, so that's where i am getting this from. Don't take the dictionary meaning, take the Smogon meaning. Do we use the dictionary meaning to describe the word uncompetitive in Smogon? Of course no. A flaw is something you have to make up for in either teambuilding or battling, that's as simple of a concept as it gets. And if you still believe that Keldeo's lack of a good ability is a flaw, then the lack of perfection in any aspect of any Pokemon could be described as a flaw. Similarly to the ''Keldeo's Justified is a flaw because it could have a better ability'' i could say that ''Greninja's 122 Speed is a flaw because it could be higher in order to outspeed more Pokemon'', but of course that would make absolutely no sense right?

As far as my reasoning for keeping zam at b+, I also did mention the slight 4MSS it suffers, mostly between hp fire or shadow ball. There's also the lack of raw power, especially when timid. I mean mzam is strong and its basically a wallbreaker with taunt, but it ultimately needs prior damage to kill things with neutral attacks. Look at some crazy shit like mega cham. That fukr needs zero prior damage to just push your shit in with HJK. If you don't resist that nuclear bomb you're done. But Mzam needs a little prior damage even to take out slightly bulky mons with neutral moves; coupled with its lack of bulk and this slight loss of power is really detrimental.

As for Trace, I guess I can understand what you mean when you say you only rely on trace to RK weather sweepers, everything else is just a bonus. It may be reliable at outspeeding weather sweepers (it can hardly even RK them reliably tho...), but like you said, everything else is just a bonus that you may or may not use. So if we look at things your way, yeah, trace isn't unreliable, but its still very inconsistent, being practically useless outside of RK'ing weather sweepers.

I also want to address this:

And if you are calling Trace unreliable, you are also calling Mega Zam unreliable, do i even have to explain why?

That's not true. The ability is just a part of the pokemon, there are much more things about mzam that DO make it reliable, like a 100% accurate STAB, strong coverage moves, and good stats, especially an uncommon speed tier (cough base 100 cough) so it doesn't have to rely on some speed ties to survive. Sometimes if your accuracy sucks you can even run hone claws viably (mega aero, durant), so your movepool can even compensate for the inconsistency of your ability. One part of the mon, one trait of it, idk, is inconsistent, but that alone certainly doesn't make the whole mon inconsistent as a whole.

As far as the whole part about flaws go, still seems weird but yeah w/e zzz

 

[Stef0w]

I gonna be honest, I god damn adore the current list, it's the best it's ever been.

I support the fuck out of hawlucha and mega-zam moving up, as they have gotten so damn good lately. Trace is super reliable, as long as you make sure to evolve it early in the match. it essentially forces pokemon like greninja and excadrill to not kill stop, unless they grant zam the power to wreck everything.

Hawlucha is just so damn fun to play, and the lack of Aegislash's omnipresence makes it way easier to get a shot at sweeping.

Omastar hits hits stupid hard, a raise would serve it well.

 

[Rhaegar]

I don't know if the Venusaur topic is done or not, but just a quick post to point out that the meta isn't even evolving in Venusaur's favor.

In addition to Tesung's post

venusaur for s is fucking crazy
it is inconsistent, and when the opponent has even one or 2 things that can switching and force it out it becomes much less useful
it is completely useless vs stall and struggles vs any team with a heatran
it can't wall any of the biggest threats besides Keld and azu, being unable to switch into zards/gyara/lando/gard/hera/medi/latis/some thund
it is very predictable, with the changes to its spread not being that important, and maybe one move (hpfire/ leechseed/ sleep powder or whatever)
it can't punish switching as well as most big threats due to lack of power
it is very vulnerable to burn/ residual, which is gonna happen to it a lot switching into scalds and rotom
i personally would say a, but a+ is fine just because it handles shit that gives offense trouble well (loom, azu Keld)

o and its recovery has 8 pp and is unreliable yum

If it had to ever be S it should have been made so pre-Aegi ban when Medicham, Gardevoir and Heracross weren't rampant. Also Recover Lati@s really benefitted from Aegi and Mawile gone, with Pinsir usage seeming to have gone up since some are high on CC Pinsir right now. Venu had even stopped being a good Keldeo check because it couldn't take a burn for nuts which probably played a role in its temporary drop to A rank (which I didn't agree with). It maybe could have barely made S rank at one point but the Aegislash and Mawile bans hurt it significantly, and picking now of all times to bring it up for S rank when it was sitting at A back then is kinda funny.