Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[TheWyvernKing]

In my honest opinion (and I'm not trying to be rude here), I wholeheartedly disagree with many of the statements you just said. First, how exactly were we so close to achieving decent balance? Ice, Grass and Ghost were almost never seen, and Flying, Steel, and Water dominated the upper ladders completely. In my book, 'Balance' occurs when each and every type has a similar amount of viability, with some being slightly more viable than others, and every type can use multiple strategies and can defeat each of their weaknesses with smart teambuilding and playing, without relying on the other player making mistakes. Ice and Grass definitely do not fit these standards, as they have FAR less viability than say, Flying or Water. Also, if the other opponent plays fairly well, it is near impossible for the Ice or Grass user to overcome their weakness. Only in extreme cases have they been able to do this.

Deoxys, Mawile, and Aegislash dropped because they simply weren't broken in Monotype; there was no reason for it to be banned in the first place.

"Overall Ice and Grass were already good types" I'm afraid I'll have to say no to this one. Ice and Grass were not at all good types, and people that could succeed with them either had a lot of experience with Monotype in general and that type, got really lucky (cough Anttyaz cough), or are simply extremely skilled battlers. These monotypes simply couldn't deal with all the threats on any team. For example, what exactly is switching in on a Sun boosted Charizard Y Fire Blast, in either Grass or Ice? Nothing that doesn't want to get 2HKO'ed. And then they also lack a surefire method of Revenge Killing the said threat afterwards. Grass and Ice really were not viable and were extremely difficult to use.

Time to wrap this up. First, all of these unbannings were to see if unbanning Ubers could make certain types more viable and increase their usage. If it doesn't work, then they will simply be banned again. Second, no, Ice and Grass were not good types previously. Finally, most of these statements you said were not completely logical; yes, these types will be more used, that is the point. No, not all of them are overpowered, and even if they are, that's what the suspect test is for. I encourage you to seriously play on the ladder with several different types, playing with the Ubers and playing with the types they are strong against, form a logical opinion with solid replays for proof, and then come back. After you have done that, then I will start to thoughtfully discuss, with my own replays and your possible ones, whether or not these mons are broken. Thank you and have a great day.


Btw, I might have gone a bit overboard saying that Ice and Grass sucked. I'll just clarify that I meant that they were outclassed by the other types, not that they utterly sucked.
(lol @ mono steel never used)

Um don't believe me if you don't want to but this gen but i know and have seen people that have gotten to #1 on ladder with ice and grass monos lol. Also steel is never used anymore, i swear i saw it like one time. I've also had success with mono ice where i've beaten pretty good mono fighting users with it but oh well.

Also the deoxys mawile and aegislash i get your point but mono ghost will still be used a load soley because people want to use a uber and they really aren't necessary lol.

 

[Croven]

Um don't believe me if you don't want to but this gen but i know and have seen people that have gotten to #1 on ladder with ice and grass monos lol. Also steel is never used anymore, i swear i saw it like one time. I've also had success with mono ice where i've beaten pretty good mono fighting users with it but oh well.

Also the deoxys mawile and aegislash i get your point but mono ghost will still be used a load soley because people want to use a uber and they really aren't necessary lol.

Not trying to start a flame war on this page (if you want to pm me >.>) so I'll just give my last opinion about this here. First: Yes, people have gotten high using Ice or Grass. Does that make the type itself viable? Not necessarily. We don't know what matches they played or any of the details of how the type specifically worked for them. Second, I'd like to see an Ice user beating a Fighting user who wasn't making misplays, I'll use that as a reference for when I ladder with Ice. Next time you do so, make sure to save the replay, that will be a big help. Third, if people want to use mono Ghost, let them. Unbanning Aegi makes Ghost more used but not overpowered? Victory in my book.

PM me next time you want to discuss this, this thread isn't really the place to argue against one another. If you have something in general about the unbans that would be helpful to the general community on deciding whether to ban or not ban the new mons, then by all means post it here.

 

[inscribe]

Not trying to start a flame war on this page (if you want to pm me >.>) so I'll just give my last opinion about this here. First: Yes, people have gotten high using Ice or Grass. Does that make the type itself viable? Not necessarily. We don't know what matches they played or any of the details of how the type specifically worked for them. Second, I'd like to see an Ice user beating a Fighting user who wasn't making misplays, I'll use that as a reference for when I ladder with Ice. Next time you do so, make sure to save the replay, that will be a big help. Third, if people want to use mono Ghost, let them. Unbanning Aegi makes Ghost more used but not overpowered? Victory in my book.

PM me next time you want to discuss this, this thread isn't really the place to argue against one another. If you have something in general about the unbans that would be helpful to the general community on deciding whether to ban or not ban the new mons, then by all means post it here.

Honestly, I say it's fine to discuss opinions on this Metagame in this thread, as long as all discussion remains civil. If you guys wanna call each other idiots, I suggest you keep that to Private Message.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I agree, statistically, it is broken. Statistically, Slaking, or Regigigas is broken. The difference between OU and Monotype is yes, that it is more match-up based, thus you have to run different movesets to pretty much counterteam anything that gives you trouble, but also that you don't have access to everything. For example: You can't pair up Kyurem-white with a reliable defogger/spinner like Zapdos, or Armaldo/Forretress. Same thing goes for Shaymin-sky, he really can't get rid of rocks reliably,,, unless you wanna use Shiftry,, (lol)

On paper slaking or regigigas isn't broken... Slaking has counters and loses to any pokemon with protect. Regigigas takes 5 turns(iirc?) to be in full effect. Seeing how its singles and switching is a crucial part of the metagame it seems Regigigas is far from broken on paper lol. In fact statistically these two pokes are very subpar. Now croven each type having they're own set of matchups (some more than others) doesn't mean the Meta isn't balanced.

In my honest opinion (and I'm not trying to be rude here), I wholeheartedly disagree with many of the statements you just said. First, how exactly were we so close to achieving decent balance? Ice, Grass and Ghost were almost never seen, and Flying, Steel, and Water dominated the upper ladders completely. In my book, 'Balance' occurs when each and every type has a similar amount of viability, with some being slightly more viable than others, and every type can use multiple strategies and can defeat each of their weaknesses with smart teambuilding and playing, without relying on the other player making mistakes. Ice and Grass definitely do not fit these standards, as they have FAR less viability than say, Flying or Water. Also, if the other opponent plays fairly well, it is near impossible for the Ice or Grass user to overcome their weakness. Only in extreme cases have they been able to do this.

However Grass and Ice did manage to pull wins in negative matchups pre Unban, however it wasn't usual(It's a matchup disadvantage what do you expect?). This is a matchup based metagame and I really don't see a future in which all types are used the same because there will always be types with way better matchups thus being suited for use. Grass and Ice have plenty of matchups to be considered Viable, they just can't compete with the options flying has available. Yes they are less viable than flying or water, but it's a matchup based metagame so to expect inherently inferior types to compete with types with way more neutral/Pro matchups is unreasonable. Pre Unban the meta was pretty balanced(Excluding SS) with only psychic mono being questionable. I do think we should've investigated that before skewing the metagame with Uber pokemon. Pre-Unban there was good variety, opportunity to be innovative, and etc.

The types with the some of the most positive/neutral match ups are used more higher up on the ladder. Well the statement speaks for itself as in someone who wants to play to win will use a type who's playstyle he/she prefers and has decent enough flexibility/match ups for them to be able to ladder high. Now if you want to try to closen the viability gap in a matchup based metagame go for it, but I strongly disagree such a feat is possible because it contradicts the type of meta it is. Banning is usually more sufficient for this, but instead we have added Uber Pokemon to boost the usage and viability of types that do(ice, grass, ghost) and don't(bug,fairy,steel, psychic) buffs. I have argued that:

- Unbanned Pokemon are broken
- Were provided to already good types(Non-Efficient, see post before)
- Unbanned Pokemon were unhealthy to the metagame
- Adding Broken Pokemon Doesn't Balance... it breaks
- Some broken mons just gave their corresponding type more match-ups in auto-loss clauses(skymin vs water )

and from that all I have asked is that pro-unbanners argue Reasons these pokemon are broken in OU, but do not apply to monotype. There has been justification in that they "balance the metagame" but that is very much opinionated from what I've seen. I'm willing to switch to pro unban if they can simply argue that one bolded expression.

Deoxys, Mawile, and Aegislash dropped because they simply weren't broken in Monotype; there was no reason for it to be banned in the first place.

Then you didn't provide anything to support what you just said? To rebuttal your statement anyways here is my stance on that.

OU Monotype is similar enough to the OU metagame that most if not all things that are broken there are broken in Monotype. As mentioned in the post prior to this one.

I'm really starting to sound like a broken record...

 

[TM93]

On paper slaking or regigigas isn't broken... Slaking has counters and loses to any pokemon with protect. Regigigas takes 5 turns(iirc?) to be in full effect. Seeing how its singles and switching is a crucial part of the metagame it seems Regigigas is far from broken on paper lol. In fact statistically these two pokes are very subpar. Now croven each type having they're own set of matchups (some more than others) doesn't mean the Meta isn't balanced.



However Grass and Ice did manage to pull wins in negative matchups pre Unban, however it wasn't usual(It's a matchup disadvantage what do you expect?). This is a matchup based metagame and I really don't see a future in which all types are used the same because there will always be types with way better matchups thus being suited for use. Grass and Ice have plenty of matchups to be considered Viable, they just can't compete with the options flying has available. Yes they are less viable than flying or water, but it's a matchup based metagame so to expect inherently inferior types to compete with types with way more neutral/Pro matchups is unreasonable. Pre Unban the meta was pretty balanced(Excluding SS) with only psychic mono being questionable. I do think we should've investigated that before skewing the metagame with Uber pokemon. Pre-Unban there was good variety, opportunity to be innovative, and etc.

The types with the some of the most positive/neutral match ups are used more higher up on the ladder. Well the statement speaks for itself as in someone who wants to play to win will use a type who's playstyle he/she prefers and has decent enough flexibility/match ups for them to be able to ladder high. Now if you want to try to closen the viability gap in a matchup based metagame go for it, but I strongly disagree such a feat is possible because it contradicts the type of meta it is. Banning is usually more sufficient for this, but instead we have added Uber Pokemon to boost the usage and viability of types that do(ice, grass, ghost) and don't(bug,fairy,steel, psychic) buffs. I have argued that:

- Unbanned Pokemon are broken
- Were provided to already good types(Non-Efficient, see post before)
- Unbanned Pokemon were unhealthy to the metagame
- Adding Broken Pokemon Doesn't Balance... it breaks
- Some broken mons just gave their corresponding type more match-ups in auto-loss clauses(skymin vs water )

and from that all I have asked is that pro-unbanners argue Reasons these pokemon are broken in OU, but do not apply to monotype. There has been justification in that they "balance the metagame" but that is very much opinionated from what I've seen. I'm willing to switch to pro unban if they can simply argue that one bolded expression.




Then you didn't provide anything to support what you just said? To rebuttal your statement anyways here is my stance on that.

OU Monotype is similar enough to the OU metagame that most if not all things that are broken there are broken in Monotype. As mentioned in the post prior to this one.

I'm really starting to sound like a broken record...

It's been stated time and time again that what made Deoxys-D/S broken in OU was the synergy it created with common teammates, which it doesn't really have much access to in Monotype. On a Psychic team, they really aren't all that bad.

There's some give and take with "What's broken in Monotype is what's broken in OU". The fact that Talonflame is perfectly fine in OU and more than manageable, but was deemed too broken for Monotype (not going further and arguing if it is or isn't again, just stating that it was deemed as such), is also an example of the INVERSE happening.

Just because it shares a name with OU does not mean Monotype OU is the same metagame, you can't 100% copypaste the banlist and expect a full and balanced game to happen. That mindset of "It's broken in OU so by default and with no exception it is broken in Monotype" has been challenged, and in a lot of cases (Genesect being the major exception I see, Skymin is horrifying too but there's a bit of wiggle room it seems) been proven somewhat wrong (Obviously we aren't going to unban Xerneas or Kyogre here, that's just stupid). I have yet to see people complaining about Mega Mawile and Aegislash (the latter having been a rather controversial ban in OU anyways, what was it, 62% of voters who chose to ban it? It's powerful, but even in OU there were a large number people who seemed more than capable of playing around it), being restricted to only one of their two types, the ones that needed the buff more.

 

[Croven]

On paper slaking or regigigas isn't broken... Slaking has counters and loses to any pokemon with protect. Regigigas takes 5 turns(iirc?) to be in full effect. Seeing how its singles and switching is a crucial part of the metagame it seems Regigigas is far from broken on paper lol. In fact statistically these two pokes are very subpar. Now croven each type having they're own set of matchups (some more than others) doesn't mean the Meta isn't balanced.



However Grass and Ice did manage to pull wins in negative matchups pre Unban, however it wasn't usual(It's a matchup disadvantage what do you expect?). This is a matchup based metagame and I really don't see a future in which all types are used the same because there will always be types with way better matchups thus being suited for use. Grass and Ice have plenty of matchups to be considered Viable, they just can't compete with the options flying has available. Yes they are less viable than flying or water, but it's a matchup based metagame so to expect inherently inferior types to compete with types with way more neutral/Pro matchups is unreasonable. Pre Unban the meta was pretty balanced(Excluding SS) with only psychic mono being questionable. I do think we should've investigated that before skewing the metagame with Uber pokemon. Pre-Unban there was good variety, opportunity to be innovative, and etc.

The types with the some of the most positive/neutral match ups are used more higher up on the ladder. Well the statement speaks for itself as in someone who wants to play to win will use a type who's playstyle he/she prefers and has decent enough flexibility/match ups for them to be able to ladder high. Now if you want to try to closen the viability gap in a matchup based metagame go for it, but I strongly disagree such a feat is possible because it contradicts the type of meta it is. Banning is usually more sufficient for this, but instead we have added Uber Pokemon to boost the usage and viability of types that do(ice, grass, ghost) and don't(bug,fairy,steel, psychic) buffs. I have argued that:

- Unbanned Pokemon are broken
- Were provided to already good types(Non-Efficient, see post before)
- Unbanned Pokemon were unhealthy to the metagame
- Adding Broken Pokemon Doesn't Balance... it breaks
- Some broken mons just gave their corresponding type more match-ups in auto-loss clauses(skymin vs water )

and from that all I have asked is that pro-unbanners argue Reasons these pokemon are broken in OU, but do not apply to monotype. There has been justification in that they "balance the metagame" but that is very much opinionated from what I've seen. I'm willing to switch to pro unban if they can simply argue that one bolded expression.




Then you didn't provide anything to support what you just said? To rebuttal your statement anyways here is my stance on that.

OU Monotype is similar enough to the OU metagame that most if not all things that are broken there are broken in Monotype. As mentioned in the post prior to this one.

I'm really starting to sound like a broken record...

Ok, I might have exaggerated a bit too much about how Grass and Ice are bad and how they should be completely equal with the others. And you are right, I realize now, Monotype is a heavily matchup based metagame. What I wanted from it is that a player at a disadvantage can still have a chance at winning if their team is built properly and they play correctly. For example, Steel can beat Fighting if the Steel user uses Skarmory and Scizor/Mawile properly, and doesn't let them die off too quickly/not use them at all.

About the fact that some Pokémon are broken in OU but not in Mono, this is a fact stated previously that I still agree with: Some of these mons don't get the support that made them a big threat. Like Skymin and Kyurem-W don't have great hazard control, so they can get worn down easily. Same thing for Deoxys; they can lay down all the hazards they want, but it's still relatively (depending on the player) easy to Defog them away without something threatening to come in, such as Bisharp. Now, for Mawile and Aegislash, explaining it is a bit trickier. Yes, they were broken in OU. Are they broken in mono? Contrary to what I previously said, it's a bit hard to decide. What I think, and this is what I honestly believe, is that the inability to have mons from other types on your team is what makes them not as broken. For each Pokémon that isn't utterly ridiculously broken, there is a check or counter. Example: Mawile? Arcanine. The thing is, in OU, these mons couldn't hold up their end. But in Monotype, where almost each mon has its own niche, these mons are completely viable. Example: Aegislash wrecks Psychic, but they have Meloetta, a poke never seen in OU play. This is a bit of a sketchy theory, I understand, but I think that it is this or something similar that allows these mons to be used in Mono and not OU.

About the recent unbans: I haven't chosen a side yet, I'm still testing (and I just started testing too <.<). The reasons I'm providing are mostly reasons that they should not be quickbanned, not unbanned as a whole. It'll take me a week or two to finish my laddering and come up with a solid opinion. Thanks for reading the wall of text.

 

[inscribe]

ued that:

- Unbanned Pokemon are broken
- Were provided to already good types(Non-Efficient, see post before)
- Unbanned Pokemon were unhealthy to the metagame
- Adding Broken Pokemon Doesn't Balance... it breaks
- Some broken mons just gave their corresponding type more match-ups in auto-loss clauses(skymin vs water )

I'm really starting to sound like a broken record...

I'm really starting to doubt that you have much experience in this Metagame at all, no offense. Like, people are breaking their backs here posting amazing arguments, and they have legitimately made me change my mind several times throughout the course of me discussing the unbanning. I only agree with one of your statements: "Were provided to already good types," but that honestly only applys to Genesect. Mawile should be kept on Steel, unless we really want to neuter Steel to the point where it's completely unviable... which goes against the reasons of these unbans in the first place. In my opinion, Genesect should just be banned from Monotype in general, but I don't mind it staying on Bug.

>skymin autowins vs grass
Grass pretty much destroys Water anyways, with points I've stated in prior posts.

Also, why are people bitching about Kyurem-white? It honestly really isn't that threatening at all with Skymin and Genesect back into the tier, and its weakness to Stealth Rock really hinders its performance, not to mention the little support the frail Ice mono pokemon can provide Kyurem-white... I really think Kyurem-white should stay.

You really are sounding like a broken record, as people in this thread have swatted down your statements as if they were flies, yet you continue to post the same invalid arguments, which don't counteract the statements people in this thread are posting. Again, I have no ill meaning with this, so don't take this the wrong way, just discussion.

 

[Vinnesia Bossman]

I've done more than 200 games after the update, so, i think know better the mono meta than you (and i'm too #1 at the moment), at the begining i thought like you that Kyurem-W was broken for the OU MONO meta but he isn't like Genesect (for bug: This replay shows Dark team can beat Bug teams:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159307077 ), Shymin and M-Maw (for fairy).

I'm sorry firnen, letting genesect die turn one to a poke you know could be faster (scarf greninja hp fire still kills), does not prove anything. I know you're good, and I respect your opinion more than a lot of others on this forum, but this proves nothing just as letting genesect stay in on a lead victini. its just silly not to switch out if you know you can be outsped. Assuming that genesect was scarfed and carried both u-turn and either ice beam or tbolt, you can revenge kill or cripple at least 3 pokes on that team, possibly 4 if you learn greninja isnt scarfed, without taking any damage. Thats what makes genesect op in mono, the fact that when played correctly, it can kill almost anything in its path and escape damage afterward.

 

[Anttya]

Much argue rip, anyways as a pretty decent grass player (I like to call myself that anyways) I'd say that Shaymin-S isn't that broken for Grass. However, it is making the tier RNG based. (You all know who's going to win the RNG games) Also, it is entirely possible to beat your disadvantages w/o Skymin since I beat a Dragon Mono without even touching Shaymin-S, and my team's not even a C-team. (I'm sorry, but I didn't save the replay. However, a majority of the people know Imp Matrix23 who was my opponent.)

Here are some replays:
https://www.replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158236078 - VS Bug. If you watch it you can see I lose Skymin turn 2 because Air Slash didn't flinch but I was still able to win due to some smart plays. Even with all of that fucking hax..
(I'll try and post more later, but no promises. I'm just too forgetful)

My final word for Skymin is that it isn't that broken, but it's making the player rely on hax instead of skill.

 

[Anttya]

Sorry for the double post x.x

Why Skymin shouldn’t be banned​

- Simple scarves outspeed non-scarfed versions and can easily kill it with the right move
- Grass has little to no Defog support. (Banana-saur, and Shiftry)
- Weakness to Stealth Rocks
- Weakness to common attacking types including Fire, Ice, and Rock
- Easily forced out, and Leftover sets hit pretty soft
- Serene Grace is a double edged sword, it might screw you over early game.
- Priority moves easily screw it over since it has average defenses (100/75/75)
- Lack of Thunder Wave (Unlike Jirachi and Togekiss) meaning that Air Slash will only flinch 60% of the time.

Why Skymin should be banned​

- RNG makes the game boring, more skill and less Air Slash spam imo
- 120 Sp Atk and 127 Speed means that it will almost always go first. Power doesn’t matter when your opponent can’t even move.
- Shaymin often forces switches to walls like Chansey, but they are greeted with a Seed Flare which will drop their Sp Def to -2 lessening the amount of Air Slashes to kill it.
- Earth Power has perfect coverage with Skymin’s 2 STAB moves, and in a tier like monotype, if it hits one thing super effectively, chances are, it hits them all super effectively.
- Easily sweeps monotypes such as Fighting, Water, Poison, Rock, Grass, and Steel monotypes with given support. This means you don’t stay in on a scarved Genesect..

Why must you need so much proof

Fighting: Air Slash sucesfully 1-2KOs every viable Fighting Pokemon (Bar Cobalion, but you can Air Slash into Earth Power range or just switch into Ferrothorn to take the Stone Edge etc.)
Scrafty: One Pokemon that could somewhat give Grass trouble would be Shed Skin DD Scrafty. That means it can set up on threats like Ferrothorn and Venusaur but SIKE Timid Skymin outspeeds Jolly Scrafty at +1 but your opponent wouldn’t know that right?
Mega Medicham: Another Pokemon would be Mega Cham, but this is a time where the balanced core of Shiftry, Venusaur, and Ferrothorn comes in handy. If your opponent doesn’t know much, he / she will get a Sucker Punch in the face so just predict properly. Even if you predict wrong and get a HJK in the face you just get a free switch-in into Skymin, and lets be honest Shiftry’s not going to do much in this matchup.
Hawlucha: Before Unburden means you’re free to spam Air Slash. After Unburden means you sack something so you’d get a free switch in into Ferrothorn. After that is a 50/50. 50% your opponent will HJK and get recoil, and 50% he/she will use Swords Dance / Taunt / Acrobatics to stall Protect. If your opponent predicts wrong, they get paraed, or Gyro Balled.

Water: Skymin has the ability to absolutely annihilate every viable water type bar Sap Sipper Azu, but even then it falls to repeated Air Slashes. If you don’t want to take a risk, just switch into Venusaur or Ferrothorn. They just happen to be great Water counters as well.

Sap Sipper Azumarill: I already said this, but it dies to repeated Air Slashes. Venusaur walls completely, and so does Ferrothorn if it doesn’t have Superpower.
Cloyster: Shell Smash outspeeds non choiced Skymin, and with a Sash it can live a Seed Flare. Not only that, Cloyster has Ice Shard which would actually only kill Skymin 10% of the time if it’s at full health. But the damage has been done since Azu can clean up right afterwards. But please, keep in mind that Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn still wall you.
Empoleon: Empoleon is not a counter, it is only a check. Even so, Venusaur has the ability to wall you to death. (I think we have a pattern going with Mega Venu and Ferrothorn)
Scarfed Icy Wind / HP Flying Keldeo: An experienced Grass Monotype player (or any monotyper) will not risk losing their win condition to something like that. Besides, why would a Keldeo come in against a Skymin unless if it’s scarfed and carrying something anti-Grass? If I was in this situation, I’d think it have either Hp Flying, or Icy Wind so Ferrothorn would be a great switch in.
Sharpedo: I haven’t seen anyone run this at all, but I’m just listing anything that could be a threat to Skymin.

Sharpedos are generally easy to play around with. They will most likely Protect first turn which will let you get a free sub up, or switch into Ferrothorn or Venusaur. And since both of these mons carry passive attacks, Destiny Bond won’t affect them.
Swift Swim: Ever since the ban of Damp Rock, Swift Swim’s usage has gone down a lot. Even if it still had Damp Rock, Venusaur and Ferrothorn would wall every viable Swift Swimmer. (Please don’t be Kyo and run a Mantine..)

Once again, everything is walled / checked by Skymin and / or Venusaur and Ferrothorn.

Poison: Just flinch everything to death. See a scarf Nidoking? Venusaur says Hi. See a Banded Crobat? Ferrothorn says hi as well. Lefties? Assume Heat Wave and switch into Rotom-M who can easily tank both Brave Bird and Heat Wave and kill it with Volt Switch (Assuming Scarf.)

Rock: Where Seed Flare truly shines. Everything is 1-2HKOed by Seed Flare. See a Sturdy user? Either get rocks up (which should be easy with Ferrothorn), switch into an appropriate counter (Once again, Venusaur and Ferrothorn love to spam Power Whip and Giga Drain), or use Air Slash and hope for the best. However, there is one Pokemon that is capable of sweeping.
Mega Aerodactyl: Finally something outspeeds Skymin, and with STAB and Tough Claws, Aerial Ace can easily demolish Skymin. And unlike Manectric, Aerodactyl outspeeds Skymin even before Mega Evolving making it a reliable counter (Can tank an Air Slash / Seed Flare / HP Ice, and Earth Power does nothing). Not only that, a majority of Aerodactyl's run Fire Fang so Ferrothorn can’t save you. The best way to deal with this would be Scarf Rotom-M, and Mach Punch spam from Breloom. Sucker Punching and random scarves help as well.

Grass: Lets keep this simple, whoever preserves Skymin wins. Want to be a troll? Use a scarf. Ferrothorn is the only Pokemon that avoids a 1-2HKO from Skymin making it a reliable switch in. Unfortunately, a lot of Grass users run HP Fire on random stuff to kill the occasional Steel Pokemon. Breloom could potentially kill Ferrothorn if Mega Saur’s down.

Steel: This is mostly directed towards balanced / Stall Steel monos. There is nothing that can take the Rotom / Skymin offensive core (Esp if you have Sub on Shaymin). Earth Power destroys everything bar Skarmory and Bulky Scizor and Rotom-M cleans up from there. (If Rotom doesn’t have HP Fire, then something else should. Just Volt Switch into it or something. I personally use Mega Venusaur since it can take a +2 Bug Bite pretty well and it’d do a ton of damage with HP Fire)

I was about to do Bug as well, but Genesect can almost too easily gain momentum and sweep with Volcarona / Scizor / Pinsir. The only way for Skymin to "counter" Bug is to be scarfed.

I take no sides :]

 

[S. Court]

Rock: Where Seed Flare truly shines. Everything is 1-2HKOed by Seed Flare. See a Sturdy user? Either get rocks up (which should be easy with Ferrothorn), switch into an appropriate counter (Once again, Venusaur and Ferrothorn love to spam Power Whip and Giga Drain), or use Air Slash and hope for the best. However, there is one Pokemon that is capable of sweeping.
Mega Aerodactyl: Finally something outspeeds Skymin, and with STAB and Tough Claws, Aerial Ace can easily demolish Skymin. And unlike Manectric, Aerodactyl outspeeds Skymin even before Mega Evolving making it a reliable counter (Can tank an Air Slash / Seed Flare / HP Ice, and Earth Power does nothing). Not only that, a majority of Aerodactyl's run Fire Fang so Ferrothorn can’t save you. The best way to deal with this would be Scarf Rotom-M, and Mach Punch spam from Breloom. Sucker Punching and random scarves help as well.

I see a small problem there, in a mono-rock you'll mostly use MegaAggron to tank steel attacks (which they're a HUGE problem) so using MegaAerodactyl just to cover Shaymin-S doesn't sound really viable

AND under normal conditions you'll run an Adamant nature most of the times (because normally you'll need the extra power and with a neutral speed nature you steel outspeed most of the metagame) that'd make Shaymin-S will outspeed you, so you'll need tons of preparation to only one Pokemon... Not sure, just talking according to my experience to mono-rock thought, but according to my point of view, Shaymin-S is almost an auto-win against mono-rock

Again, just talking about this part according to my own experience

 

[Anttya]

I see a small problem there, in a mono-rock you'll mostly use MegaAggron to tank steel attacks (which they're a HUGE problem) so using MegaAerodactyl just to cover Shaymin-S doesn't sound really viable

AND under normal conditions you'll run an Adamant nature most of the times (because normally you'll need the extra power and with a neutral speed nature you steel outspeed most of the metagame) that'd make Shaymin-S will outspeed you, so you'll need tons of preparation to only one Pokemon... Not sure, just talking according to my experience to mono-rock thought, but according to my point of view, Shaymin-S is almost an auto-win against mono-rock

Again, just talking about this part according to my own experience

Adamant Mega Aerodactyl gets 399 Speed, while Timid Skymin reaches 388 so Aerodactyl would still outspeed.
Also, if you run Mega Aggron what would be your set? Rest talk + Curse would be walled by Skarm if you run Eq or Heavy Slam and w/o Rest Aggron gets worn down way too easily. Aerodactyl on the other hand can run Fire Fang and Earthquake. That alone dents pretty much every Steel type. If you want more, then add Hone Claws. And to me, ever since Shaymin got unbanned I feel like Mega Aero is standard on Rock teams since it helps with Skymin / Grass, Steel, And Fighting (Fake Out resist, can take a couple Mach Punches)

I know that means that Normal Aerodactyl will get outsped by Skymin, but let's be real, who's going to bring it in against Skymin when there are Pokemon like Venusaur to abuse.

This set would handle most of what I said above

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hone Claws / Stone Edge
- Stone Edge / Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Aerial Ace

Earthquake is for 1HKOing Heatran, otherwise Stone Edge 2HKOs at +1.
Fire Fang 2HKOs Skarm at +1, something Aggron can never do.
But yeah, you get the point. Rock has no chance vs Grass even if you have Mega Dactyl
Aerial Ace and Fire Fang get the tough claws boost.

 

[S. Court]

Adamant Mega Aerodactyl gets 399 Speed, while Timid Skymin reaches 388 so Aerodactyl would still outspeed.
Also, if you run Mega Aggron what would be your set? Rest talk + Curse would be walled by Skarm if you run Eq or Heavy Slam and w/o Rest Aggron gets worn down way too easily. Aerodactyl on the other hand can run Fire Fang and Earthquake. That alone dents pretty much every Steel type. If you want more, then add Hone Claws. And to me, ever since Shaymin got unbanned I feel like Mega Aero is standard on Rock teams since it helps with Skymin / Grass, Steel, And Fighting (Fake Out resist, can take a couple Mach Punches)

This set would handle most of what I said above

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hone Claws / Stone Edge
- Stone Edge / Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Aerial Ace

Earthquake is for 1HKOing Heatran, otherwise Stone Edge 2HKOs at +1.
Fire Fang 2HKOs Skarm at +1, something Aggron can never do.
But yeah, you get the point. Rock has no chance vs Grass even if you have Mega Dactyl
Aerial Ace and Fire Fang get the tough claws boost.

Actually, I use MegaAggron as a paralysis spreader with Roar and Thunder wave, Fire punch against Scizor (which is the main threat I want to cover with him) and most steel Pokemon, and Heavy slam due to STAB and pressure fairies, it has worked in my team

Well, considering the fact Choice scarf is a popular choice to Shaymin-S, I think even Jolly MegaAero is not able to outspeed him (or he can? Not totally sure) but about everything else you're right

 

[Anttya]

Actually, I use MegaAggron as a paralysis spreader with Roar and Thunder wave, Fire punch against Scizor (which is the main threat I want to cover with him) and most steel Pokemon, and Heavy slam due to STAB and pressure fairies, it has worked in my team

Well, considering the fact Choice scarf is a popular choice to Shaymin-S, I think even Jolly MegaAero is not able to outspeed him (or he can? Not totally sure) but about everything else you're right

True, Aggron's a great para spreader / Scizor check I overlooked that part. Scarf Skyrim is mostly used in Ubers, I feel like it's kinda wasted in monotype where there are so many bulky stuff that can force it out. But yeah, nothing can outsped Scarf Skymin unless you're a scarf Aero or a Unburden Hawlucha

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

I don't think they have the same metagame although I do think they have a similar one. Monotype teams usually try to live up to OU standards(correct me if I'm mistaken) although since its more match up based you run a bit different movesets. Unlike other OMs such as AAA which can't even be compared to OU , Mono can. Monotype is really just OU with a restriction as I see it. It's not like the other OMs with completely different mechanics. Hey if you think they are so different like I said before, please show how these pokes reasoning of getting banned there doesn't show here. Weighing knowledge of the meta is hard, but I do believe you're more credible than me numbers wise. Alright I'll investigate Kyu-W, because so far statistically its broken. Since in battle it may not be, I'll do 50 or so battles against and with Kyu-W and post on it again when I'm done.

In Monotype, you can see Pokemon who are never used in OU teams such as Whimsicott, Ludicolo and others Pokemons lowers tiers, it's one difference.
But like Inscribe said it, you can have huge stats and doesn't be broken in fonction of the metagame you play.
Yes, i'm happy to see you make 50 games with Kyurem-W to see if you always win.
For Kyurem-S, to be honnest, i've to test him now because i tested Shaymin-Sky and Genesect (For Bug teams because for Steel, he's "broken") with more than 100 games for each type.
So, i'll give my opinion for Kyu-S after done 60-100 games with Ice Team.

All im gonna say is dropping these pokes from ubers was a horrid idea, I get what you were trying to do but in all honesty the metagame is totally flipped around when it was so close to achieving a decent enough balance >.>.. Anyways when your using mono ice and your getting rid of your best poke (kyurem-black) for a different poke and your beating your weakness 6-0 you know it's overpowered. Also shaymin-sky has serene grace seed flare+air slash along with earth power which is helpful on both of its monos for its weakness, overall this one poke alone is why mono grass is winning some battles because in all honesty the majority of it's users now used different type before, even though its a type they may never have used before they are now beating some of the best poison users along with all its other weaknesses because of shaymin-s.

Also i don't understand why deoxys, genesect, and mega mawile dropped in the first place. All the monos they belong too were already great and in all honesty they aren't needed.

None of the pokemon unbanned deserved it and it shouldn't have happened in the first place. This is just gonna make mono steel never used since its it's so easily beat by mono ice and dragon now and all the monos that didn't get a uber never used as well. People are gonna go towards the mono's that get a uber because of the uber and no other reason. In fact before the ban there were people that got to #1 on the mono ladder with grass and ice before the unbans along with great ghost users after the aegislash ban.

The unbans did nothing but make people use even less monos than before, there used to be people that would use mono ice or grass but now everyone is using them and everyone else that is looking for a strong mono is just going for those 2 monos. Even if you make it banned for only one mono like aegislash, that mono will gain significant usage. Stuff like this has happened before like how talon made fire mono wayyy more common but the second it was banned fire was used like any other mono.

Overall ice and grass were already good types and i've seen good fighting users lose to ice users and similar with grass and it's weaknesses. Overall giving an underrated type a pokemon that clearly deserves ubers is not going to magically make the metagame balanced. In a way ou and mono are tied really closely together so that when talon got banned from mono for example it lost significant usage in ou. In mono when theres a pokemon that can easily threaten others its going to make more of an impact due to the fact that there is less likely a counter and more chances to set up. Aegislash for example was everywhere and it could easily sweep with weakness policy.

Also the fact that people were saying ice sucked before unban and now its op because of k-w. Overrall even if the uber pokemon was really fine or wasn't a threat at all in mono the fact that it's a uber alone will cause the usage to go insane and there will be people saying that its op. So many people are using the "weaker types" now so ill acknowledge that much worked but now everything is totally messed up.

I'm going to say the prescense of a uber alone will cause insane usage and overall mess up the balance of the metagame. After all it is OU monotype.

I'll say the idea is cool but just make snow warning create like infinite hail or chlorophyl cause a turn of sun upon switch in cause something like this will cause grass and ice usage even though they're already perfectly fine types.

You aren't a Monotype player, i see it with you've wrote.
Say that Grass and Ice are powerfull types shows you don't know well about Monotype.

"In fact before the ban there were people that got to #1 on the mono ladder with grass and ice before the unbans along with great ghost users after the aegislash ban."
Sorry, but you are saying false things...
After them ban, users who be #1 were Annz, Soma, Majulous Pichu and me.
Types used are Dark, Dragon, Generic Flying, Ground, Steel and Water. If you want say cases to give prooves Grass and Ice are powerfull types, don't lie please.

You've perhaps seen good Grass, Ice users play against beginners too... Even if there is always one chance to beat Fire with Grass (But against Generic Flying, chances are nearly 1%) and Ice beat Fighting (But M-Medi well played just beat Ice team only with him).

Ice isn't op now please, i've beaten 3 times Ice with Ground, people say Ice are OP now don't want see Kyurem-S allowed, that's it and nothing else.
They are stronger but not broken.

OU Monotype was created for fun based on OU at the begining, now, the tiers needs to evolve (Ban of Talonflam was the first step of the evolution) and be considered as an official tiers, and so, have "differents" rules than OU.

If you want unlimited weather, go back to the 5th Gen.

- Unbanned Pokemon are broken
- Were provided to already good types(Non-Efficient, see post before)
- Unbanned Pokemon were unhealthy to the metagame
- Adding Broken Pokemon Doesn't Balance... it breaks
- Some broken mons just gave their corresponding type more match-ups in auto-loss clauses(skymin vs water )

and from that all I have asked is that pro-unbanners argue Reasons these pokemon are broken in OU, but do not apply to monotype. There has been justification in that they "balance the metagame" but that is very much opinionated from what I've seen. I'm willing to switch to pro unban if they can simply argue that one bolded expression.

.

• Broken not for everyone.
• Grass, Ice aren't good types.
• Unbanned Pokemon like Shymin, M-Maw (For Fairy), Genesect (For Bug), Aegislash (For Ghost) and Deoxys aren't unhealty for the metagame.
• It breaks only for Genesect (For Steel), Mega-Maw ( For Steel).
• Please, Bulky Water or not, Grass teams were already stronger in front of Water Teams... (Like i said, my 6-1 against Sae is a proof i think).
So auto-loss clauses is just a case pro-banners say and say and say again...

I'm sorry firnen, letting genesect die turn one to a poke you know could be faster (scarf greninja hp fire still kills), does not prove anything. I know you're good, and I respect your opinion more than a lot of others on this forum, but this proves nothing just as letting genesect stay in on a lead victini. its just silly not to switch out if you know you can be outsped. Assuming that genesect was scarfed and carried both u-turn and either ice beam or tbolt, you can revenge kill or cripple at least 3 pokes on that team, possibly 4 if you learn greninja isnt scarfed, without taking any damage. Thats what makes genesect op in mono, the fact that when played correctly, it can kill almost anything in its path and escape damage afterward.

Yes, i admit it, i've bad played this turn with Genesect but for bug he's a "plus" to face Generic Flying, U-Turn switchs are dangerous, right but with Stealth Rock is' too dangerous for bugs because they are weak to this.
I know you want ban Genesect because Genesect can break Psychic generic teams (Mew/Metagross/Mega-Medi/...) but i've done 62 games with Genesect (in bugs teams) and i've only won 42 games, if Genesect was broken, i would have done better score than this imo.
I'm for the ban for Genesect in Steel teams but for bug, i'm neutral at the moment, he's powerfull but can be easily countered if you play well.

Much argue rip, anyways as a pretty decent grass player (I like to call myself that anyways) I'd say that Shaymin-S isn't that broken for Grass. However, it is making the tier RNG based. (You all know who's going to win the RNG games) Also, it is entirely possible to beat your disadvantages w/o Skymin since I beat a Dragon Mono without even touching Shaymin-S, and my team's not even a C-team. (I'm sorry, but I didn't save the replay. However, a majority of the people know Imp Matrix23 who was my opponent.)

Here are some replays:
https://www.replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158236078 - VS Bug. If you watch it you can see I lose Skymin turn 2 because Air Slash didn't flinch but I was still able to win due to some smart plays. Even with all of that fucking hax..
(I'll try and post more later, but no promises. I'm just too forgetful)

My final word for Skymin is that it isn't that broken, but it's making the player rely on hax instead of skill.

I'm agree with you, but Togekiss and Jirachi can haxx too, and it's better for them because they can paralyze!

I see a small problem there, in a mono-rock you'll mostly use MegaAggron to tank steel attacks (which they're a HUGE problem) so using MegaAerodactyl just to cover Shaymin-S doesn't sound really viable

AND under normal conditions you'll run an Adamant nature most of the times (because normally you'll need the extra power and with a neutral speed nature you steel outspeed most of the metagame) that'd make Shaymin-S will outspeed you, so you'll need tons of preparation to only one Pokemon... Not sure, just talking according to my experience to mono-rock thought, but according to my point of view, Shaymin-S is almost an auto-win against mono-rock

Again, just talking about this part according to my own experience

I don't use M-Aggron all time because M-Aerodactyl is awesome when you've done one Hone Claws and sweep everything (except Scarf of course).

 

[scpinion]

So I've been testing Kyu-w for the last day or so and wanted to post some replays and comments. First, I opted for a bulky set w/ lefties and sub opposed to a choiced/LO killer. After quite a bit of tinkering I arrived at this set (pls let me know if you have suggestions on the EV's):

Kyurem-White @ Leftovers
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 28 SpD / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Fusion Flare
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

The HP and Def EV's let it setup sub. on a skarm (neutral brave bird is 12.5% chance to break sub) while also living a cb scizor bullet punch after rocks 12.5% of the time--although the scizor situation is something I would switch out of, if possible. I chose skarm as a benchmark b/c steel is incredibly common right now and a huge threat. The sub becomes super important if you want to take a chunk out of those teams w/ kyu-w. 52 speed EVs gets the jump on base 70 adamant; most importantly, Bisharp. The rest goes into Sp.Def to be as bulky as possible. Modest and 0 Atk IV's means foul play will not break sub. Finally, some credit is due to dm35 as he helped make the set.

Given the slow, bulky set, I decided to use some of my team slots to support kyu-w. I'm running dual screens rotom to provide a "slow" pivot into kyu-w. I also have t-wave support in the form of rotom and froslass.

Now on to the replays and comments. I spent most the time on a test alt so I wasn't at the high ladder, but I think many of the points are valid regardless. These are not in chronological order so the EV spread was being optimized between many of the battles.

vs ghost http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159378973

I was running max HP, max SpAtk in this battle. It is one of my first, when I was testing the water with kyu-w. The ability to come in on slow mons that rely of status, setup sub, and start wrecking is amazing. When using this kyu-w, it is important to remember it will not outright sweep in most cases. Instead, I found it best equipped to punch holes in the opposing team as it switched in and out throughout the course of a match (means hazards can ruin your day tho).

a more recent battle vs ghost: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159457591

Same story; kyu-w sets up sub when it can and then punches holes in the opposing team before cleaning up at the end.


vs poison: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159460839, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159464239

This Kyu-w set just wrecks poison users' day, especially ones that run wheezing (its so easy to double switch into it). Kyu-w is able to get its sub up w/o issue on many of the most common mons for poison and most of the team struggles to break it w/o being OHKO'd. I never would have predicted it before testing, but Kyu-w is completely broken against a standard poison team.


vs. bug: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159654170

A mixed bag…The sub is useful and kyu-w can take huge chunks out of various 'mons, but not OP in this matchup imo. Demonstrates the usefulness of para support (a theme I went for in this team) for bulky kyu-w.


vs. steel (no genesect): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159407756

Kyu-w takes out skarm and should have a sub after doing so. Heatran is no match and gets OHKO'd unless it is SpDef tran, which I setup sub on. Once skarm and heatran are gone Its just a matter of cleaning up from there. I decided to speed creep base 70 adamant, so bisharp has to sucker punch if it wants to damage kyu-w.

I didn't save the replay, but I played a non-standard steel team and got beat by 1HP left on a durant after a whole slew of misplays (it was early and I had yet to have coffee…) I think it was Anttyaz team, but I'm not 100% certain. If so, they may be able to provide some comments on kyu-w from that battle.

another steel team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159384120
It pains my soul to post this on Smogon, but it demonstrates the power of kyu-w. I misplayed the whole match from the start and the idiocy there at the end is just sad… Its also a haxy battle w/ a freeze and some flinches. However, had I not been an idiot (or gotten flinched on the exca iron head) I would have won w/ kyu-w killing all 6 mons.


vs flying (rnbs, a good flying player): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159404773

Well, sacking rotom on the first turn wasn't my best choice ever… Also, I had not quite worked out the EVs on kyu-w yet; so, I didn't get to setup my sub on skarm like I thought and had to sack it in the end. :/ No worries though, cloyster and mamo were there to save the day! With the correct EVs kyu-w would have been much more useful and easily netted another kill. My best guess is kyu-w will be completely broken against flying because it can setup sub on mons such as skarm and zapdos; then, proceed to destroy whatever offensive threat comes in w/ ice beam.


vs water (a mediocre team imo, sorry if that is you): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159394323

Another haxy battle w/ all the hyrdo pump misses (he ended up RQ'ing), but I had it in hand before that. Kyu-w is still star of the show putting immense pressure, and setting up sub, on the common defensive core of tenta and lanturn. Keldeo and Azu are the threats from this team, but the rest of my team can help handle them. To beat water I need to apply offensive pressure early to prevent keldeo from running wild and kyu-w does just that.


vs dragon (E-Series 1B): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159453211

Ice has the type advantage anyways and can apply significant offensive pressure. This was an early battle with this team so I sacked mamo when I shouldn't have, but ended up getting the para on kyu-b to seal a victory. Once again, waiting for a chance to setup sub w/ kyu-w guarantees a kill for my team and I can just switch it out once again if placed in an unfavorable matchup.


vs fairy (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159375623

Ok, not the best fairy user ever; I'm sure shaman or pez would cringe at this battle. :P Gonna say this was is not particularly informative as far as kyu-w goes, but its my only battle vs fairy thus far. Figured I would post it so others may form their own opinions.

Opinions on Kyu-w thus far:
So far my opinion on kyu-w is very similar to skymin (I'll post on it later). There are 3-4 types it will allow ice to just wreck if played well: poison, dragon, flying and ground. Although, I haven't found ground on the ladder yet so I'm guessing on it (I blame skymin :D). Other types do fine against it and the game is more about tactics and skill. As for type weaknesses...I haven't played fire or fighting yet, but against steel kyu-w is very useful and capable of creating a favorable matchup if played well. Currently, I would vote to ban kyu-w for reasons similar to the talonflame ban. The presence of kyu-w will restrict the usage of the aforementioned types and creates a more matchup based metagame, which I view as detrimental/undesirable.

 

[Anttya]

So I've been testing Kyu-w for the last day or so and wanted to post some replays and comments. First, I opted for a bulky set w/ lefties and sub opposed to a choiced/LO killer. After quite a bit of tinkering I arrived at this set (pls let me know if you have suggestions on the EV's):

Kyurem-White @ Leftovers
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 28 SpD / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Fusion Flare
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

The HP and Def EV's let it setup sub. on a skarm (neutral brave bird is 12.5% chance to break sub) while also living a cb scizor bullet punch after rocks 12.5% of the time--although the scizor situation is something I would switch out of, if possible. I chose skarm as a benchmark b/c steel is incredibly common right now and a huge threat. The sub becomes super important if you want to take a chunk out of those teams w/ kyu-w. 52 speed EVs gets the jump on base 70 adamant; most importantly, Bisharp. The rest goes into Sp.Def to be as bulky as possible. Modest and 0 Atk IV's means foul play will not break sub. Finally, some credit is due to dm35 as he helped make the set.

Given the slow, bulky set, I decided to use some of my team slots to support kyu-w. I'm running dual screens rotom to provide a "slow" pivot into kyu-w. I also have t-wave support in the form of rotom and froslass.

Now on to the replays and comments. I spent most the time on a test alt so I wasn't at the high ladder, but I think many of the points are valid regardless. These are not in chronological order so the EV spread was being optimized between many of the battles.

vs ghost http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159378973

I was running max HP, max SpAtk in this battle. It is one of my first, when I was testing the water with kyu-w. The ability to come in on slow mons that rely of status, setup sub, and start wrecking is amazing. When using this kyu-w, it is important to remember it will not outright sweep in most cases. Instead, I found it best equipped to punch holes in the opposing team as it switched in and out throughout the course of a match (means hazards can ruin your day tho).

a more recent battle vs ghost: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159457591

Same story; kyu-w sets up sub when it can and then punches holes in the opposing team before cleaning up at the end.


vs poison: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159460839, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159464239

This Kyu-w set just wrecks poison users' day, especially ones that run wheezing (its so easy to double switch into it). Kyu-w is able to get its sub up w/o issue on many of the most common mons for poison and most of the team struggles to break it w/o being OHKO'd. I never would have predicted it before testing, but Kyu-w is completely broken against a standard poison team.


vs. bug: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159654170

A mixed bag…The sub is useful and kyu-w can take huge chunks out of various 'mons, but not OP in this matchup imo. Demonstrates the usefulness of para support (a theme I went for in this team) for bulky kyu-w.


vs. steel (no genesect): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159407756

Kyu-w takes out skarm and should have a sub after doing so. Heatran is no match and gets OHKO'd unless it is SpDef tran, which I setup sub on. Once skarm and heatran are gone Its just a matter of cleaning up from there. I decided to speed creep base 70 adamant, so bisharp has to sucker punch if it wants to damage kyu-w.

I didn't save the replay, but I played a non-standard steel team and got beat by 1HP left on a durant after a whole slew of misplays (it was early and I had yet to have coffee…) I think it was Anttyaz team, but I'm not 100% certain. If so, they may be able to provide some comments on kyu-w from that battle.

another steel team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159384120
It pains my soul to post this on Smogon, but it demonstrates the power of kyu-w. I misplayed the whole match from the start and the idiocy there at the end is just sad… Its also a haxy battle w/ a freeze and some flinches. However, had I not been an idiot (or gotten flinched on the exca iron head) I would have won w/ kyu-w killing all 6 mons.


vs flying (rnbs, a good flying player): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159404773

Well, sacking rotom on the first turn wasn't my best choice ever… Also, I had not quite worked out the EVs on kyu-w yet; so, I didn't get to setup my sub on skarm like I thought and had to sack it in the end. :/ No worries though, cloyster and mamo were there to save the day! With the correct EVs kyu-w would have been much more useful and easily netted another kill. My best guess is kyu-w will be completely broken against flying because it can setup sub on mons such as skarm and zapdos; then, proceed to destroy whatever offensive threat comes in w/ ice beam.


vs water (a mediocre team imo, sorry if that is you): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159394323

Another haxy battle w/ all the hyrdo pump misses (he ended up RQ'ing), but I had it in hand before that. Kyu-w is still star of the show putting immense pressure, and setting up sub, on the common defensive core of tenta and lanturn. Keldeo and Azu are the threats from this team, but the rest of my team can help handle them. To beat water I need to apply offensive pressure early to prevent keldeo from running wild and kyu-w does just that.


vs dragon (E-Series 1B): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159453211

Ice has the type advantage anyways and can apply significant offensive pressure. This was an early battle with this team so I sacked mamo when I shouldn't have, but ended up getting the para on kyu-b to seal a victory. Once again, waiting for a chance to setup sub w/ kyu-w guarantees a kill for my team and I can just switch it out once again if placed in an unfavorable matchup.


vs fairy (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159375623

Ok, not the best fairy user ever; I'm sure shaman or pez would cringe at this battle. :P Gonna say this was is not particularly informative as far as kyu-w goes, but its my only battle vs fairy thus far. Figured I would post it so others may form their own opinions.

Opinions on Kyu-w thus far:
So far my opinion on kyu-w is very similar to skymin (I'll post on it later). There are 3-4 types it will allow ice to just wreck if played well: poison, dragon, flying and ground. Although, I haven't found ground on the ladder yet so I'm guessing on it (I blame skymin :D). Other types do fine against it and the game is more about tactics and skill. As for type weaknesses...I haven't played fire or fighting yet, but against steel kyu-w is very useful and capable of creating a favorable matchup if played well. Currently, I would vote to ban kyu-w for reasons similar to the talonflame ban. The presence of kyu-w will restrict the usage of the aforementioned types and creates a more matchup based metagame, which I view as detrimental/undesirable.

Hm, I don't think I played you. It might've been Jake5 but I have a q, why not dump the Sp Def EVs into Sp Atk so you can get some extra fire power? Overall, nice set tho

 

[QueenOfHax]

Hello, I have been running a mono-ice team with Kyurem-W and I agree with what scpinion said: Kyurem-W is unhealthy to the metagame and should be banned.
While it plays very differently from Talonflame, the end result is the same: Kyu-W is extremely powerful against several types, therefore discouraging their use.
On top of that, besides Mono-Fairy, there is no monotype that is completely safe from it - even mono-steel, fire, rock and fighting, ice's main weaknesses, need to be extremely careful around it (mono-fairy has AV Azumarill and Sylveon as reliable answers).
Mono-ice still has issues against fighting (Scarf Kyu-W is almost mandatory here), fairy (if you give Clefable a chance to setup it can 6-0 the whole team by itself) and bug (the best bugs happen to have a secondary type that gives ice issues, such as Scizor, Volcarona and Genesect).
Everything else is either neutral or in ice's favor as long as Kyu-W is around.

Kyurem-W is very versatile, being able to run Scarf, LO and several Substitute variants. Choice Specs, its trademark set in ubers, is just overkill in this metagame so it's not needed. I personally ran a speedy and offensive Sub+3 attacks set until I hit 1500's on the ladder, then switched to Scarf. My team was the same as scpinion, except I ran LO Weavile instead of Cloyster, and my Rotom-F ran a SubSplit set with WoW and Discharge.

The types Kyurem-W wrecks aren't just the ones scpinion listed (dragon, poison, flying and ground), but also grass, electric and normal (requires Knock Off support for Chansey).
I have seen people going to great lenghts not to have their teams utterly dismantled by Kyu-W, including but not limited to: Eviolite Mantyke, Eviolite Lilleep with Mirror Coat , AV Armaldo, AV Victini, AV Walrein, Scarf Landorus-I (not a gimmick, but significantly less standard than LO sets), Specs Moonblast Whimsicott and best of all Focus Sash Ferrothorn. And despite these incredibly specialized checks Kyu-W was able to come on top most of the time.

Turboblaze is extremely powerful in Kyu-W's hands, as it can OHKO Sturdy mons like Skarmory and Forretress, damage Heatran with Fusion Flare (breaking its Balloon in the process) and bypass Levitate with Earth Power (mono-electric, mono-fire and mono-poison in particular are extremely reliant on that). Its Ice/Ground/Fire coverage not only is unresisted thanks to Turboblaze, but also happens to have incredible SE coverage (http://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage). Like its brother Kyu-B, it doesn't even need to run its Dragon STAB to be a killing machine.

It's also astonishingly bulky: even with minimal EV investiment in HP it can comfortably live powerful hits like Scizor's CB Bullet Punch, Victini's V-Create and Heatran's Flash Cannon. I distinctly remember Kyu-W managing to live M-Mawile and Bisharp's Sucker Punches, OHKOing both of them in the process.
I'm also leaving this gem here:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-W: 336-396 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This is against Choice Scarf Kyurem-W.

When addressing Kyu-W's flaws, we need to be honest here: it's not Kyu-W that is severely flawed, it's the rest of the team that can't fully support it the same way other monotypes could. Unfortunately mono-ice lacks reliable Heal Bell, Wish, Healing Wish, Sleep and Baton Pass users; if it did Kyu-W would be completely unstoppable against every monotype.
Yet monoice has just enough support to let it become a huge threat against most of the metagame. Those replays above clearly demonstrates that mono-ice has turned into an entry hazard war with Kyu-W blasting holes whenever it gets the chance.

The question now here is: if a single pokemon can destroy several monotypes by itself but it's not strong enough to let that type (ice in this case) overcome its major weaknesses, can it still be considered broken?
I'm asking this because I have a hard time believing that Talonflame could easily sweep mono-rock, mono-water (Suicune, Rock/Water types, Rotom-W), mono-steel (Heatran), mono-fire (Heatran and Rotom-H) by itself, yet the fact grass, bug and fighting were almost completely helpless against it was reason enough to ban it.
The same can now be said for Kyu-W against grass, electric and the other types mentioned above. If we're going to treat both the same way then it's pretty clear to me that Kyu-W should be banned.

 

[Freeroamer]

Hm, I don't think I played you. It might've been Jake5 but I have a q, why not dump the Sp Def EVs into Sp Atk so you can get some extra fire power? Overall, nice set tho

With a modest nature and no investment, you're still hitting 416 SpA, which for reference is the same as a positive nature fully invested base 140 stat so it hits plenty hard enough

So far my opinion on kyu-w is very similar to skymin (I'll post on it later). There are 3-4 types it will allow ice to just wreck if played well: poison, dragon, flying and ground. Although, I haven't found ground on the ladder yet so I'm guessing on it (I blame skymin :D).

Yeah I can confirm this, all the guaranteed checks that ground can carry to beat kyurem-w are either obscure sets, ie scarf lando, or don't fit that well on a typical ground team and open up other weaknesses, ie. scarf garchomp or scarf excadrill. The result of this is you are almost required required to sac a mon just to work out the set, and then you have to work around it insanely to beat it, if it is the scarf set you're only answer is either a scarf lando(if kyurem has taken prior damage) or scarf garchomp, or to get exca in under sand(saccing hippowdon in the process). If not the scarf set, it'll be either a LO/Specs set which results in the same games, or the subroost set which requires you to sac a mon everytime it gets a sub. The end result of all this is that you're under so much pressure when against kyurem-w, it's impossible to cater for both it and it's teammates, which means in a matchup against a skilled player this is about as close as an auto-win for the Ice player as you can get.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Well, let's see what on a water team can use a strong Psychic move able to kill Mega Venusaur.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 179-213 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 242-283 (66.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 108-128 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In response to all of these Venusaur will be using giga drain;

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 218-260 (83.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 127-151 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 176-210 (44.7 - 53.4%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Venusaur will be healing substantially in all four of these cases: so much so that it will nearly heal off all of the damage it has taken in 3 of the 4 cases. Consequently it is quite obvious here that none of these can reliably take on Venusaur, with the exception of life orb Greninja. This leaves only one answer to Venusaur, and with that, it is quite easy to bait and kill this one answer, especially with Greninja's paper-thin defenses. This paired with Stealth rock damage and Life orb recoil, it is very easy to eliminate Greninja, not even mentioning that Ferrothorn can easy sponge all of Greninja's hits barring a rare hidden power fire (if it is using Extrasensory, it likely has no room for hp fire..). This leads to the fact that whenever Venusaur switches in, it will kill something or out-stall it as Greninja will easily get taken out by a giga drain on the switch (0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 254-302 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO)
So no, "anything with psychic" does not kill the mighty swag plant.

Nice way to critically analyze a joke. Lol give this guy an award

 

[inscribe]

Opinions on Kyu-w thus far:
So far my opinion on kyu-w is very similar to skymin (I'll post on it later). There are 3-4 types it will allow ice to just wreck if played well: poison, dragon, flying and ground. Although, I haven't found ground on the ladder yet so I'm guessing on it (I blame skymin :D). Other types do fine against it and the game is more about tactics and skill. As for type weaknesses...I haven't played fire or fighting yet, but against steel kyu-w is very useful and capable of creating a favorable matchup if played well. Currently, I would vote to ban kyu-w for reasons similar to the talonflame ban. The presence of kyu-w will restrict the usage of the aforementioned types and creates a more matchup based metagame, which I view as detrimental/undesirable.

Ground doesn't auto-lose VS Kyurem-white unless your opponent is a complete idiot and sacks him to something, since Gastrodon can freely switch into a Draco Meteor, but Choice Specs Draco is a 2HKO, and Choice Specs HP Grass OHKOes if you really wanna be that guy. If you run sets like Specs HP Grass,

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 292-344 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 432-512 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 349-412 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 234-276 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The thing is, if you run Choice Specs you lose the needed Choice Scarf that makes Kyurem-white thrive in this Metagame, even with Ice's shit supporting skills. You can always run Scarf HP Grass as well, but then you lose some of Kyurem-white's amazing coverage, same thing with any other HP Grass variant.

 

[inscribe]

Nice way to critically analyze a joke. Lol give this guy an award

It was such a shitty joke, you couldn't even tell it was one. Honestly, I thought you were serious when you said that too,, I kek'd on the inside.

Either way, his post was not useless, as it proves that any random lmfao hp flying keldeo will not destroy a Grass Mono, and it will not ultimately give you the 'advantage' as Crazy Horse says.

>sry for double post ;__;

 

[Anttya]

Ground doesn't auto-lose VS Kyurem-white unless your opponent is a complete idiot and sacks him to something, since Gastrodon can freely switch into a Draco Meteor, but Choice Specs Draco is a 2HKO, and Choice Specs HP Grass OHKOes if you really wanna be that guy. If you run sets like Specs HP Grass,

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 292-344 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 432-512 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 349-412 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 234-276 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The thing is, if you run Choice Specs you lose the needed Choice Scarf that makes Kyurem-white thrive in this Metagame, even with Ice's shit supporting skills. You can always run Scarf HP Grass as well, but then you lose some of Kyurem-white's amazing coverage, same thing with any other HP Grass variant.

I'm that guy who runs Adamant LO Outrage Kyurem-W tho..
252+ Atk Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 364-429 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (Serious tho, I run a LO Mixed Wallbreaker set)

Anyways yeah, it's actually pretty hard for a Ground user to auto lose, esp if they carry Swords Dance Iron Head Excadrill. Also, Toxic stall Gastrodon's just plain annoying (for Ice at least)

> should've waited 10 seconds then you wouldn't have double posted :]

 

[QueenOfHax]

Ground doesn't auto-lose VS Kyurem-white unless your opponent is a complete idiot and sacks him to something, since Gastrodon can freely switch into a Draco Meteor, but Choice Specs Draco is a 2HKO, and Choice Specs HP Grass OHKOes if you really wanna be that guy. If you run sets like Specs HP Grass,

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 292-344 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 432-512 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 349-412 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 234-276 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The thing is, if you run Choice Specs you lose the needed Choice Scarf that makes Kyurem-white thrive in this Metagame, even with Ice's shit supporting skills. You can always run Scarf HP Grass as well, but then you lose some of Kyurem-white's amazing coverage, same thing with any other HP Grass variant.

It may not auto-lose to Kyurem-W if the opponent knows what it's doing, but mono-ice vs mono-ground is one of those cases where the ice team can actually support Kyu-W. Mono-ice has all the tools to beat mono-ground: Ice Shard deals with Landorus and Garchomp, Avalugg walls Mamoswine and even Excadrill to an extent, nobody runs Golurk so spinning is very easy, Weavile can considerably weaken the whole team with Knock Off and everything else is blasted by Kyu-W's Ice Beam.
Honestly though, mono-ice vs ground was always in ice's favor even before Kyu-W was unbanned.

 

[DoW]

It was such a shitty joke, you couldn't even tell it was one. Honestly, I thought you were serious when you said that too,, I kek'd on the inside.

Either way, his post was not useless, as it proves that any random lmfao hp flying keldeo will not destroy a Grass Mono, and it will not ultimately give you the 'advantage' as Crazy Horse says.

>sry for double post ;__;

Lmao HP flying Keldeo who'd even run that?

I mean you'd have to be a real noob to run that right?

I mean what kind of idiot would run specs HP flying Keldeo?