Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[SSJ]

Either ways, some of the most unorthodox sets on some of the most known pokemon can really catch people off guard. And back to Infernape, I really think he doesn't deserve to be down on C rank. He's got a pretty versatile play style especially with the mixed set and I'm positive that most people who encounter it will have a hard time countering it. He's got a great offensive typing which prevents him from getting burnt and he's got one of the best mixed attacking sets with STAB CC, which deals a great blow on chansey.
168 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 538-634 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
75% means nearly most of the time (more than half the time), its going to be an OHKO.

 

[alexwolf]

This thread's goal is to both help the newcomers in what Pokemon to use and rank all the viable Pokemon as objectively as possible as a reference list for everyone. So, we don't care at all about what is being used in the lower part of the ladder. Viability doesn't depend on skill level, or at least shouldn't if we are doing our job correctly.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

It strikes me that "the meta" is essentially made up of several metas, being at least "low ladder", "mid ladder" and "high ladder". Anti-meta in one part might play into the hands of another part.

So what is this thread seeking to achieve? When we say something is "good in the meta right now"' which part of the meta do we mean? If this thread is trying to give advice to newbies, shouldn't it focus on effectiveness in the low ladder, and leave it to them to figure things out for themselves once they have more experience? Is it really useful for a newcomer to know what works well right now in the 1800+ ladder?

It's really the discussion in the last few pages that has suddenly made me wonder this, and I think it's a principle that really deserves spelling out one way or the other.

to be fair low ladder is absolutely garbage up to about 1300. Any team 1500+ will be effective their. Mid ladder 1300-1700 or so is quite different meta than upper tier tho and things that work here don't work upper tier as well and things that work well upper tier don't work well mid tier.

For example stall works great their wear the meta is filled with sand and bird spam. In contrast a pokemon like greninja gets pretty snubbed.
In contrast in upper ladder where more ho is common greninja does great

 

[kabbes]

This thread's goal is to both help the newcomers in what Pokemon to use and rank all the viable Pokemon as objectively as possible as a reference list for everyone. So, we don't care at all about what is being used in the lower part of the ladder. Viability doesn't depend on skill level, or at least shouldn't if we are doing our job correctly.

In that case, why so much focus on meta trends, with corresponding rises and falls in viability?

 

[alexwolf]

In that case, why so much focus on meta trends, with corresponding rises and falls in viability?

Because trends affect viability. Trends from good players, because they are used effectively, not trends that have no impact on the metagame as a whole.

 

[Albacore]

I'm gonna nominate Tangrowth for C/C+, I've been using it a lot recently and it's pretty good, certainly better than stuff like Ludicolo, Diancie and Tornadus.

It might be hard to justify using Tangrowth over Ferrothorn, MVenu, Amoonguss or Celebi as a bulky Grass type, but it does hold a few valuable niches. The most important of these is being an excellent answer to Sand Rush Excadrill. It beats it much more convincingly than Ferrothorn (dies after a bit of chip damage, needs Power Whip to beat it and is completely ruined by the SD variant) Celebi (has a very real chance to lose to Iron Head Flinches), MVenu or Amoonguss (who straight up lose). It also has a good niche as an Azumarill counter that's not completely ruined by Magnezone or Banded Superpower, and though it does lose to the BD set, that set is pretty uncommon atm compared to band and especially AV. Even though Celebi also counters non-BD Azumarill too, Tangrowth does it much more convincingly. I love Celebi and defenitely stand by my nomination for it to move to B+, but it does tend to get worn down quite a bit, and can easily end up in a range where it loses to Knock Off+Waterfall or Banded Play Rough. Tangrowth doesn't have to worry about this at all thanks to Regenerator, and its Ground immunity, increased offensive presence and far greater physical bulk makes it a good pick over Amoonguss is a lot of cases. It's also an excellent answer to Terrakion (even takes banded X Scissor which Celebi does not), Bisharp (all Ferro can do is leech seed really, and Celebi and Venu kinda just lose pathetically), Landorus-T (Celebi, believe it or not, takes a U-Turn but doesn't take it well at all, and Ferro gets eaten by Zone) and Crawdaunt, which I've seen a ton more of, and who can dispose of Amoonguss, Celebi and Ferro with Banded Knock Off (you can lose to LO SD with Tangrowth but Band is the more common set from my experience). For the most part, it's eclipsed by these other grass types, but it does hold quite a few advantages over them, to the point where it's definitely a solid option for quite few teams, especially if you're Excadrill and Bisharp weak (the latter of which seems to happen a lot fsr).

kabbes I don't know if this answers your question, but metagame trends tend to affect the entire ladder and not just the top. If an RMT becomes popular, you see it everywhere on the ladder, for instance (besides maybe the 1000-1400s, but who the hell knows what even goes on down there)

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

While Mandibuzz definitely lost a lot of its viability during the last months, due to the absence of Aegislash and the prominence of wallbreaking MEvos that shit all over it (Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross), it's far from a bad Pokemon. I would drop it to B, but not any lower, as it's still a decent Defog user, checks many important threats such as Landorus, Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Latios, Latias (that lack Thunderbolt), Landorus-T, Talonflame, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gengar, Mega Alakazam, Breloom, and regular Gyarados, and has many useful support options, such as Taunt, Whirlwind, and Knock Off. It can even forgo Defog to run a set of Taunt / Toxic / Roost / (Foul Play / Knock Off), which is a decent stallbreaker that checks a unique array of Pokemon. Yeah it needs anti-SR support, but that's not really hard to provide and a must for most teams. It sucks being so reliant on SR being off the field though, because Mandi fails to deal with a lot of threats if SR is on the field, which makes it pretty match up reliant. If it can beat the opposing SR setter (Ferro, Lando-T, Garchomp, Tyranitar), that's nice, otherwise things are going to be a bit difficult for it.

Terrakion is a monster, all Lando-T sets are easy to wear down, and everything else can be beaten with very little previous damage. SD + dual STABs + filler is Terrakion's best set atm, and if you go with Sub, Slowbro has to bank on the 30% burn chance of Scald to not lose, which is quite a shitty position to be in. Terrakion is a very consistent wallbreaker from my experience, that helps soften up teams early game for my cleaners, or just toys with balanced and some stall teams. It's one of those Pokemon that is useful no matter the matchup you face.

Breloom should drop because all the MEvos that got popular recently fuck it up (Mega Zard Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham), including Pokemon that can anti-lead its Sash set, namely Fake Out Mega Medicham and Jolly Mega Heracross. SD + LO is really fun though, and wears down bulky Grass-types like a charm, so if people start catching up on this set (which is actually hard to wall and punishes switches) it may be worthy of A- again.

IMO, if a Pokemon has a set deserving of a ranking, it ought to hold that ranking regardless of whether or not people 'starting catching up on this set.' If Breloom can function as an A- Pokemon, then it is an A- Pokemon.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

IMO, if a Pokemon has a set deserving of a ranking, it ought to hold that ranking regardless of whether or not people 'starting catching up on this set.' If Breloom can function as an A- Pokemon, then it is an A- Pokemon.

The problem with that is, they don't stay that way. I can't find any better example other than Mandibuzz. She was an amazing Pokemon, could support with defog and toxic + knock off, and deal with Aegislash, all in one Pokemon. Now, Aegi is gone, and it has paved way for many better hazard removers, shoving mandibuzz into nonexistence, we don't see it much anymore, and there's a reason why. The metagame shifts every damn month it seems, and sometimes, Pokes just aren't as viable as they used to be. That's where this discussion thread comes into play.

 

[WideTomato]

I don't think I'm going crazy with this.

(D) -> C-

This thing is actually a pretty good pokemon, but it's really underrated and I feel like its a lot more vailable in the current meta than it's fellow D rank companions. I feel like it's very compare able to hydregon, who is also c, as this guy seems outclassed by other dragons in the meta (Latis for hydreigon and garchomp/dragonite for zygarde) however zygarde how notable niches over the other dragons that makes it for a really good pokemon in the OU metagame.

Zygarde pretty much have two useable sets, dd and subcoil, I'll mainly be talking about the dd set, as it is the only set I have experience with. Zygarde have a really nice dragon/ground typing, which can almost hit the entire tier for at least neutral damage, giving it nice breathing space in its last slot. It also have access to extremespeed which allows it to pick up weakened threats or priority users, such as talonflame. It also have great 108/121/95 bulk giving it plenty of opportunities to set up, especially against physical attackers. It also have a rather decent speed allowing it to outspeed up to base ~140+ speed after a single dragon dance, making it a great sweeper. And even though it's base attack seems a bit low, this is easely compensated for by giving it a life orb, which is not a huge problem as it can often setup and still get of a good amount of hits before finally going down.

Pros over garchomp:
-better bulk
-dragon dance access
-access to priority

Cons compared to chomp:
-lacking strong fire type coverage
-lacks stealth rock
-slower before the boost
-lower attack stat

Pros over dragonite:
-not weak to sr
-EQ stab

Cons compared to dragonite:
-Less attack
-lack of a useful ability
-easier to kill from full hp

(That's the most important pros and cons I could think of, sorry is I swapped pros and cons n_n I think you know what I mean.)

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

The problem with that is, they don't stay that way. I can't find any better example other than Mandibuzz. She was an amazing Pokemon, could support with defog and toxic + knock off, and deal with Aegislash, all in one Pokemon. Now, Aegi is gone, and it has paved way for many better hazard removers, shoving mandibuzz into nonexistence, we don't see it much anymore, and there's a reason why. The metagame shifts every damn month it seems, and sometimes, Pokes just aren't as viable as they used to be. That's where this discussion thread comes into play.

Those situations are in no way, shape or form, comparable. Mandibuzz lost viability because one of the primary reasons for its usage vanished, and it can't run a set that functions with as much efficacy in the current metagame. Breloom's primary set lost viability, but it can still run a very dangerous set. To quote Alexwolf again:

"Breloom should drop because all the MEvos that got popular recently fuck it up (Mega Zard Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham), including Pokemon that can anti-lead its Sash set, namely Fake Out Mega Medicham and Jolly Mega Heracross. SD + LO is really fun though, and wears down bulky Grass-types like a charm, so if people start catching up on this set (which is actually hard to wall and punishes switches) it may be worthy of A- again."

Basically, its Sash set is no longer A- worthy, but its SD+LO set potentially is. The SD+LO set isn't being discussed simply because it isn't being widely used.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

"Breloom should drop because all the MEvos that got popular recently fuck it up (Mega Zard Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham), including Pokemon that can anti-lead its Sash set, namely Fake Out Mega Medicham and Jolly Mega Heracross. SD + LO is really fun though, and wears down bulky Grass-types like a charm, so if people start catching up on this set (which is actually hard to wall and punishes switches) it may be worthy of A- again."

Basically, its Sash set is no longer A- worthy, but its SD+LO set potentially is. The SD+LO set isn't being discussed simply because it isn't being widely used.

Key words in bold. There's no way of knowing if that set is A- worthy because of the lack of usage. But as it stands now, Breloom is not A- material because of the Pokes that have shown up post Aegi-ban, and their increase in usage.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Key words in bold. There's no way of knowing if that set is A- worthy because of the lack of usage. But as it stands now, Breloom is not A- material because of the Pokes that have shown up post Aegi-ban, and their increase in usage.

It doesn't take a lot of people to use a set to determine its viability. If this were the case, any number of Pokemon currently on the viability list would drop - for example, Hawlucha. The point of the viability thread is to convey usefulness to individuals less experienced with the metagame. Rather than 'is it used often?' we're supposed to be asking 'if I use it, will it serve a purpose?'

If Breloom's SD+LO set can be useful then it deserves to be considered regardless of how many people do or do not use it.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

It doesn't take a lot of people to use a set to determine its viability. If this were the case, any number of Pokemon currently on the viability list would drop - for example, Hawlucha. The point of the viability thread is to convey usefulness to individuals less experienced with the metagame. Rather than 'is it used often?' we're supposed to be asking 'if I use it, will it serve a purpose?'

If Breloom's SD+LO set can be useful then it deserves to be considered regardless of how many people do or do not use it.

Right, and people have to use it in order to determine whether it is as viable as Sash or not.

 

[Karxrida]

Usage and usefulness are both valid arguments, but one has to remember that the usage of specific Pokemon can directly affect the usefulness of another. Having a bad match-up with a lot of S- and A-Ranks or the dominant playstyle (currently Sand Offense) can cause a Pokemon to lower in rank or flat-out make them unviable regardless of how useful they are against other Pokemon/playstyles.

 

[Alfalfa]

alexwolf When I look at the C Rankings, I kind of see it as a freak zone. Part of it seems to have been stuff that I have no clue if they are worth even ranking anymore, or how good they actually are; I think stuff like Slowking, Noivern, Exploud, Ludicolo , Venomoth, and Gourgeist-S need to be re-examined in terms of viability. Slowking, without a doubt, needs to be re-examined; the whole idea behind it was its ability to pivot into stuff like Zard-Y and Aegislash, and while it is probably viable, we should definitely re-examine it to see how good it is in the current meta. Noivern was getting attention during the Aegislash suspect, but does it hit hard enough to pull its weight, or is it over-reliant on the base power of its attacks to inflict notable damage? Are Exploud's wallbreaking capabilities actually worth using, or is it just a waste of a teamslot 99% of the time? Ludicolo hits slightly harder than Seismitoad, but is still really weak, so is it really worth ranking? Is QuiverPass even worth enough merit in the current metagame for Venomoth to get ranked? Gourgeist-S looks good on paper, but does that translate into viability? I think these are some of the questions we should be asking ourselves. I do not want just one guy's opinion; I want everybody's opinion, since we are all supposed to be determining these Pokemon's viability. However, I want these Pokemon to actually be carefully examined, and not just giving a rank check and pushed away. Do you mind if we set this as the point of discussion after the next update?

 

[RotomPoison]

alexwolf When I look at the C Rankings, I kind of see it as a freak zone. Part of it seems to have been stuff that I have no clue if they are worth even ranking anymore; I think stuff like Slowking, Noivern, Exploud, Ludicolo , Venomoth, and Gourgeist-S need to be re-examined in terms of viability. Slowking, without a doubt, needs to be re-examined; the whole idea behind it was its ability to pivot into stuff like Zard-Y and Aegislash, and while it is probably viable, we should definitely re-examine it to see how good it is in the current meta. Noivern was getting attention during the Aegislash suspect, but does it hit hard enough to pull its weight, or is it over-reliant on the base power of its attacks to inflict notable damage? Are Exploud's wallbreaking capabilities actually worth using, or is it just a waste of a teamslot 99% of the time? Ludicolo hits slightly harder than Seismitoad, but is still really weak, so is it really worth ranking? Is QuiverPass even worth enough merit in the current metagame for Venomoth to get ranked? Gourgeist-S looks good on paper, but does that translate into viability? I think these are some of the questions we should be asking ourselves. I do not want just one guy's opinion; I want everybody's opinion, since we are all supposed to be determining these Pokemon's viability. However, I want these Pokemon to actually be carefully examined, and not just giving a rank check and pushed away. Do you mind if we set this as the point of discussion after the next update?

Slowking is entirely outclassed by Slowbro and imo was only slightly usable before the recent bans. Noivern does have key traits that let it stand out, those being U-turn, Taunt, and that really high Speed, and when being compared to Latios, Flamethrower. Exploud hits hard, sure, but it's so easy to check, just kind if hard to counter, but t's still worthy of D because of a 140 BP STAB without immunities that can kind of pressure offensive teams. Ludicolo I personally don't care about, but it has a unique typing for a Swift Swimmer, so it has some use... until you realize Kingdra and a bunch of other Pokemon exist. Also Seismitoad is literal garbage, it's immune to Thunder Wave but it's weak as shit. I have no experience with Gourgeist-S, though I remember someone here saying they did, hopefully they notice this.

I recently made a huge post here and I might have to do it again since I feel like there's a lot that can be changed in the lower ranks, even Keys sadly

 

[Alfalfa]

Slowking is entirely outclassed by Slowbro and imo was only slightly usable before the recent bans. Noivern does have key traits that let it stand out, those being U-turn, Taunt, and that really high Speed, and when being compared to Latios, Flamethrower. Exploud hits hard, sure, but it's so easy to check, just kind if hard to counter, but t's still worthy of D because of a 140 BP STAB without immunities that can kind of pressure offensive teams. Ludicolo I personally don't care about, but it has a unique typing for a Swift Swimmer, so it has some use... until you realize Kingdra and a bunch of other Pokemon exist. Also Seismitoad is literal garbage, it's immune to Thunder Wave but it's weak as shit. I have no experience with Gourgeist-S, though I remember someone here saying they did, hopefully they notice this.

I recently made a huge post here and I might have to do it again since I feel like there's a lot that can be changed in the lower ranks, even Keys sadly

Again, while I appreciate your opinion, I want everyone's opinion and not just your word for it. I feel like I am forced to accept one guy's word for it without any real discussion on them, which is not something we should encourage.

 

[RotomPoison]

Again, while I appreciate your opinion, I want everyone's opinion and not just your word for it. I feel like I am forced to accept one guy's word for it without any real discussion on them, which is not something we should encourage.

You don't have to do that at all, it was just my opinion on where they should end up, nothing anyone says here is any more than their own opinion backed up with experience.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Just to continue off this...

I previously supported unranking Ludicolo, but I think it actually belongs on the list, for its ability two handle two things rain teams despise: Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Ik gastrodon isn't the most relevant mon, but it is slowly gaining popularity for its ability to beat rain, electrics, heatran, and some other stuff, and auto-losing to it when using a rain team (it beats electrics, kabu, non hp-grass omastar, keldeo, +...) is really bad, and is best handled by using Ludicolo. Additionally, Ludi's immunity to leech seed + ability to 2hko ferro makes it really useful. I think a drop could possibly make sense, if the standards for D change. But as they are now, Ludi fits well in C-.

Gourgeist-S is interesting. I personally really like it for its ability to handle Excadrill + Diggersby, check Adamant Medicham, and just pose as an incredibly annoying mon (leech seed + wow + protect/phantom force is super annoying). Its niche is really unique, and the current environment (sand offense + stall) is really favorable to it. I think C- or D make sense.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf When I look at the C Rankings, I kind of see it as a freak zone. Part of it seems to have been stuff that I have no clue if they are worth even ranking anymore, or how good they actually are; I think stuff like Slowking, Noivern, Exploud, Ludicolo , Venomoth, and Gourgeist-S need to be re-examined in terms of viability. Slowking, without a doubt, needs to be re-examined; the whole idea behind it was its ability to pivot into stuff like Zard-Y and Aegislash, and while it is probably viable, we should definitely re-examine it to see how good it is in the current meta. Noivern was getting attention during the Aegislash suspect, but does it hit hard enough to pull its weight, or is it over-reliant on the base power of its attacks to inflict notable damage? Are Exploud's wallbreaking capabilities actually worth using, or is it just a waste of a teamslot 99% of the time? Ludicolo hits slightly harder than Seismitoad, but is still really weak, so is it really worth ranking? Is QuiverPass even worth enough merit in the current metagame for Venomoth to get ranked? Gourgeist-S looks good on paper, but does that translate into viability? I think these are some of the questions we should be asking ourselves. I do not want just one guy's opinion; I want everybody's opinion, since we are all supposed to be determining these Pokemon's viability. However, I want these Pokemon to actually be carefully examined, and not just giving a rank check and pushed away. Do you mind if we set this as the point of discussion after the next update?

Slowking is a great special pivot that can check all of Landorus, Greninja, Mega Zard Y, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Mega Alakazam, CM Suicune, Kingdra, Omastar, and Manaphy, Pokemon that Slowbro struggles to check or doesn't at all. I am talking about the AV set btw.

Specs Exploud is a threat under Trick Room, and C- / D are the ranks for dedicated TR sweepers, so no issue there.

Ludicolo is a great check to Mega Gyarados and Azumarill, two threats that many rain teams have trouble dealing with, especially if those two are paired with Magnezone. In general, a Swift Swimmer that doesn't care about any of Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Keldeo is a nice thing to have, and the extra insurance against Mega Gyarados is great. Ludicolo could drop to D if a lot of people support it, but it's not getting removed from the list.

Gourgeist is actually very decent, checking many top-tier threats such as Excadrill, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Landorus-T, Terrakion, and AV Azumarill, and WoW + Leech Seed is a bitch to deal with. Even a SpD RestTalk set with WoW + Seed Bomb / Leech Seed works, in order to actually counter specially based Water-types, while still dealing with physical Ground-types pretty well. It also spinblocks against both defensive Starmie and Excadrill, which is great for mitigating the threat of Pokemon such as Talonflame and Mega Zard Y. S is fast and can be used on offensive and balanced teams and H can be used on Spikes stacking stall teams. Not a great mon but definitely worth ranking and imo better than any D rank Pokemon.

No opinion on Venomoth.

But yeah, we could discuss those Pokemon after the upcoming update.

 

[Alfalfa]

Slowking is a great special pivot that can check all of Landorus, Greninja, Mega Zard Y, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Mega Alakazam, CM Suicune, Kingdra, Omastar, and Manaphy, Pokemon that Slowbro struggles to check or doesn't at all. I am talking about the AV set btw.

Specs Exploud is a threat under Trick Room, and C- / D are the ranks for dedicated TR sweepers, so no issue there.

Ludicolo is a great check to Mega Gyarados and Azumarill, two threats that many rain teams have trouble dealing with, especially if those two are paired with Magnezone. In general, a Swift Swimmer that doesn't care about any of Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Keldeo is a nice thing to have, and the extra insurance against Mega Gyarados is great. Ludicolo could drop to D if a lot of people support it, but it's not getting removed from the list.

Gourgeist is actually very decent, checking many top-tier threats such as Excadrill, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Landorus-T, Terrakion, and AV Azumarill, and WoW + Leech Seed is a bitch to deal with. Even a SpD RestTalk set with WoW + Seed Bomb / Leech Seed works, in order to actually counter specially based Water-types, while still dealing with physical Ground-types pretty well. It also spinblocks against both defensive Starmie and Excadrill, which is great for mitigating the threat of Pokemon such as Talonflame and Mega Zard Y. S is fast and can be used on offensive and balanced teams and H can be used on Spikes stacking stall teams. Not a great mon but definitely worth ranking and imo better than the rest D rank Pokemon.

No opinion on Venomoth.

But yeah, we could discuss those Pokemon after the upcoming update.

From your experience, does Exploud work on Sticky Web teams as well? I hear everybody saying it works under Trick Room, but does it work with Sticky Web as well? You outspeed up to Keldeo under Sticky Web, but I do not know if it will work with Sticky Web, I never used it.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I'm gonna nominate Tangrowth for C/C+, I've been using it a lot recently and it's pretty good, certainly better than stuff like Ludicolo, Diancie and Tornadus.

It might be hard to justify using Tangrowth over Ferrothorn, MVenu, Amoonguss or Celebi as a bulky Grass type, but it does hold a few valuable niches. The most important of these is being an excellent answer to Sand Rush Excadrill. It beats it much more convincingly than Ferrothorn (dies after a bit of chip damage, needs Power Whip to beat it and is completely ruined by the SD variant) Celebi (has a very real chance to lose to Iron Head Flinches), MVenu or Amoonguss (who straight up lose). It also has a good niche as an Azumarill counter that's not completely ruined by Magnezone or Banded Superpower, and though it does lose to the BD set, that set is pretty uncommon atm compared to band and especially AV. Even though Celebi also counters non-BD Azumarill too, Tangrowth does it much more convincingly. I love Celebi and defenitely stand by my nomination for it to move to B+, but it does tend to get worn down quite a bit, and can easily end up in a range where it loses to Knock Off+Waterfall or Banded Play Rough. Tangrowth doesn't have to worry about this at all thanks to Regenerator, and its Ground immunity, increased offensive presence and far greater physical bulk makes it a good pick over Amoonguss is a lot of cases. It's also an excellent answer to Terrakion (even takes banded X Scissor which Celebi does not), Bisharp (all Ferro can do is leech seed really, and Celebi and Venu kinda just lose pathetically), Landorus-T (Celebi, believe it or not, takes a U-Turn but doesn't take it well at all, and Ferro gets eaten by Zone) and Crawdaunt, which I've seen a ton more of, and who can dispose of Amoonguss, Celebi and Ferro with Banded Knock Off (you can lose to LO SD with Tangrowth but Band is the more common set from my experience). For the most part, it's eclipsed by these other grass types, but it does hold quite a few advantages over them, to the point where it's definitely a solid option for quite few teams, especially if you're Excadrill and Bisharp weak (the latter of which seems to happen a lot fsr).

kabbes I don't know if this answers your question, but metagame trends tend to affect the entire ladder and not just the top. If an RMT becomes popular, you see it everywhere on the ladder, for instance (besides maybe the 1000-1400s, but who the hell knows what even goes on down there)

When i made a nom for Tangrowth, it was completely rejected. Kind of weird.
Anyways, since we are talking about breloom i will give my opinion on it
It runs a good amount of sets, some kind of creative, but it sometimes has troubles with other pokemon due to its usually weak attacks (Mach Punch, Bullet Seed, Rock Tomb, etc.) even with its 130 attack. OBviously, the meta does not like breloom right now, as things like Tflame, Char Y & X, Clef, Venu, etc running wild. Even with the Sash set, it is still gonna die, and honestly is a waste of a pokemon slot most of the time (as of now) it basically is only used as a Sash Spore user, and that usually dies on the second turn.
With the meta as it is right now, with all the counters and checks roaming wild, i think Breloom should be demoted

 

[Anduril]

When i made a nom for Tangrowth, it was completely rejected. Kind of weird.
Anyways, since we are talking about breloom i will give my opinion on it
It runs a good amount of sets, some kind of creative, but it sometimes has troubles with other pokemon due to its usually weak attacks (Mach Punch, Bullet Seed, Rock Tomb, etc.) even with its 130 attack. OBviously, the meta does not like breloom right now, as things like Tflame, Char Y & X, Clef, Venu, etc running wild. Even with the Sash set, it is still gonna die, and honestly is a waste of a pokemon slot most of the time (as of now) it basically is only used as a Sash Spore user, and that usually dies on the second turn.
With the meta as it is right now, with all the counters and checks roaming wild, i think Breloom should be demoted

Breloom should stay where it is. It's a great lead with spore, has powerful technician-boosted attacks, and swords dance. It also has some tricky poison heal/leech seed sets that imo are as good as technician. I also have used the sub punch set avidly and can honestly say that it is a great annoyer and damage dealer. Breloom should stay where it is

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Breloom should stay where it is. It's a great lead with spore, has powerful technician-boosted attacks, and swords dance. It also has some tricky poison heal/leech seed sets that imo are as good as technician. I also have used the sub punch set avidly and can honestly say that it is a great annoyer and damage dealer. Breloom should stay where it is

still, as i said, the meta does not like it. even though all your points are valid, people are deranking (or trying to) Blissey cause its outclassed.
So shouldn't loom be B+ because of it being hard to switch in to threats, being checked by a good amount of the meta, and even being passive because of its meh Spe and defenses.

PS. if you are wondering about the blissey thing, i was pointing out that people rank down other mons cause they are outclassed, hence why Tang is in C-.
Also it meant that pokemon can be lowered for any reason.

 

[Celticpride]

still, as i said, the meta does not like it. even though all your points are valid, people are deranking (or trying to) Blissey cause its outclassed.
So shouldn't loom be B+ because of it being hard to switch in to threats, being checked by a good amount of the meta, and even being passive because of its meh Spe and defenses.

PS. if you are wondering about the blissey thing, i was pointing out that people rank down other mons cause they are outclassed, hence why Tang is in C-.
Also it meant that pokemon can be lowered for any reason.

Lead Breloom doesn't switch into threats, and other sets can be rather easy to get in against certain threats (it's one of the few things to resist both halves of EdgeQuake). Ferrothorn, for example, can be an easy thing to get in on and set up an SD. Also, Breloom is anything but passive. 130 attack, Technician and strong priority means that it can deal damage to a great deal of things. Grass/Fighting/Rock coverage isn't resisted by anything notable, just Toxicroak. Not many things switch in safely, even Talon fears Rock Tomb on the switch. Also, the lead set can Spore, Rock Tomb on the (predictable) switch and suddenly one of their mons is sleeping and another is at -1 speed. Bullet Seed being a powerful Sash breaker is also a good trait.