Legendary Pokemon / TLR General Discussion Thread

[zarator]

What's the problem with Frosty's run owing 83 UC? I mean, it seems comparable to Hard Mode raids paying to me

 

[Its_A_Random]

I don't think that Frosty's run should be used owing to the fact that it was rather unique.

One thing that does need clarifying is how much an update where no combat occurs, but a ref issues actions, costs. Since right now, the interpretation that currently stands is that a trap setup where you issue orders for one Pokemon is the same value as a horde setup where you issue actions for 5. Which seems a wee bit silly =\

Trap Setup is—or should be—considered non-combat. At least that is how I interpret it. I will try and get some standards down.

What's the problem with Frosty's run owing 83 UC? I mean, it seems comparable to Hard Mode raids paying to me

I am not saying it is a bad thing, I am trying to gauge what is appropriate for a TLR payout (and asking if it is a little bit too much or not). Obviously people seem to like the current parameters.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Combat Update
Any update that involves both the player's team and the "house" (as in the Pokémon the referee controls) issuing actions and then being calculated.

Non-Combat Update
Introducing a new combat (including any encounter where a move is used prior).
Introducing a new scenario.
A scenario update that leads to or does not lead to another scenario.

Standards
Unless the encounter has a choice in that same scenario after the encounter (e.g. DW's Mazes, Forest or Stream in Amperage Stream), give the player a reprieve before introducing a new scenario.
Transition from Scenario to Scenario (Both Regular) assuming no combat involved should be seamless and be on the same update.
Reprieve is always given prior to a scenario that contains the guardians or bosses unless the scenario has a choice prior to the encounter AND it is there was no combat involved in that update (e.g. Getting lucky at the Vista in Rock Crag, give a reprieve under the current version. If the player avoids an encounter at the second scenario in Ice Spire, do not give a reprieve since there is a choice to make directly prior to the guardian fight).

I apologise if it looks confusing but yeah this is what I tend to follow.

Any other opinions on the UC payout changes? (Or this whole non-combat / standards / yadda yadda yadda)

 

[Its_A_Random]

Many people are saying TLR still does not earn enough UC for the referee so I am going to attempt to address this with a proposed payout revision. The update based system has worked as intended and looks fine enough for use, so I am looking at the following at the moment:

2 UC Base
0.5 UC per Poké Ball thrown
1 UC per Non-Combat Update / "Free Round" following a capture attempt (Non-Combat as in introducing an encounter, scenarios, etc. Some standards on non-combats and shit to be clarified)
1.5 UC per Combat Update with three or less active Pokémon on the field.
2 UC per Combat Update with four to six active Pokémon on the field.
2.5 UC per Combat Update with seven or more active Pokémon on the field. (i.e. Compensation for Horde insanity).

My issue is trying to find a right balance so it is not too little and it is not too much. For example, I estimated Frosty's trip to southern Siberia to be worth ~83 UC (+32 over the current system). Of course the parameters can be tweaked around to get a good balance if that is the case.

Thoughts?

Combat Update
Any update that involves both the player's team and the "house" (as in the Pokémon the referee controls) issuing actions and then being calculated.

Non-Combat Update
Introducing a new combat (including any encounter where a move is used prior).
Introducing a new scenario.
A scenario update that leads to or does not lead to another scenario.

Standards
Unless the encounter has a choice in that same scenario after the encounter (e.g. DW's Mazes, Forest or Stream in Amperage Stream), give the player a reprieve before introducing a new scenario.
Transition from Scenario to Scenario (Both Regular) assuming no combat involved should be seamless and be on the same update.
Reprieve is always given prior to a scenario that contains the guardians or bosses unless the scenario has a choice prior to the encounter AND it is there was no combat involved in that update (e.g. Getting lucky at the Vista in Rock Crag, give a reprieve under the current version. If the player avoids an encounter at the second scenario in Ice Spire, do not give a reprieve since there is a choice to make directly prior to the guardian fight).

I apologise if it looks confusing but yeah this is what I tend to follow.

Any other opinions on the UC payout changes? (Or this whole non-combat / standards / yadda yadda yadda)

These are happening. Hopefully this will mean that TLR Pay will not have to be reviewed for some time yet.

 

[Frosty]

Since this seems to be the "discuss stuff about TLR here" thread I will ask this here: is it possible to add a DQ Interval time? Even if it is like a month, I think it would be a nice thing to have, so we don't have each ref using a different interval.

 

[Its_A_Random]

RE the above: I guess a month could suffice though I would need to talk to Dogfish that.

Anyhow, In-game precedent discovery that would make things easier for challengers should we go ahead with this:

Substitute no longer blocks capture in XY.

Non-conclusive proof: Okay I kinda found this out by accident while I was hunting for a Careful Ditto on Y (in Pokémon Village) without a synchroniser (really good idea I know). I had a Gourgeist-S in the lead with Leech Seed/Will-O-Wisp/Seed Bomb/Substitute. I come across a Ditto. Normally I would sub right away to block transform before burning then throwing Repeat Balls until it is caught. When I found the Ditto, I accidentally threw the Repeat Ball first instead of subbing. It failed and it transformed into Gourgeist. I then went to my usual procedure, subbing after being hit by Seed Bomb before burning the Ditto with Will-O-Wisp. The Ditto then substituted so then I saw an opportunity to test the sub block theory out. I threw a Repeat Ball. The Substitute went inside. Three wobbles. Ditto was caught. Oh boy... (This was done an hour and a half ago)

How sub blocking come about in the first place: Basically I asked a question on IRC if Substitute blocked Capture a couple of years ago and Elevator Music helped out testing on his Heart Gold file I think it was through a Smeargle sketching Substitute or something. The opponent subbed on him and when he tried, it failed due to being "out of sight".

So yeah given the new precedent, I guess unless there are objections, we can lift the ruling on Substitute blocking captures for new TLR's?

 

[Dogfish44]

1 Month would work.

And matching precedent is generally a good thing, so I say we ought to go for it.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Yeah sub not blocking capture is now official as of 18 days ago pretty much due to little objections to it, which affects Maxim's, Elevator Music's, Arcanite's, zarator's, and Avnomke's TLR's. Not that it has changed much atm but if sub is used, then you can catch mons through it.

 

[Maxim]

I would like to bring something up about the current TLRs. It came up in IRC today when I was discussing Regigigas. As such I might be a little biased here but I'll try to limit it as much as I can.

TLR Difficulty:
Essentially, what criteria are we using for determining what dungeons deserve "Training", "Legendary", and "Uber" difficulty status? At first I thought it was just "how much this legend breaks ASB", but now I'm not so sure. The thing is, I've received word that the upcoming Darkrai and Cresselia dungeon is getting a Legendary dungeon (admittedly a really hard legendary dungeon) while Regigigas currently has an Uber dungeon. If we're basing this off of how powerful the Pokemon is, this does not really make a whole lot of sense to me, as we're comparing a Pokemon that has the most powerful sleep move in ASB (sans Spore arguably) having an "easier" dungeon than a Pokemon who's crippled with a 4 Rank Attack and 50 Speed for 5 Actions.

Enough about that comparison though, what I think really needs to be created is some kind of criteria for what gets placed in what difficulty mode. This prevents TLR creators from making dungeons that are easier or harder than they're supposed to be. To give an idea of what I mean, I'll give my own ideas for each difficulty:

Training: This tier holds any Pokemon that is unique and hard to obtain in game, but who's stats or movepool bring it below the level of many ASB threats. Examples: Floette-E, Phione

Legendary: This tier holds Pokemon that are unique and hard to obtain in game, and which also have an advantage over Pokemon in ASB, but are not especially overpowering. Examples: Three Beasts, Three Birds, majority of the "minor legends".

Uber: This tier holds Pokemon that are unique and hard to obtain in game, and which pose a significant or overpowering advantage over other Pokemon in ASB, whether due to stats or special moves. Examples: Rayquaza, Mewtwo, most "cover legends"

Uber+: Arceus, and any future Pokemon that match it's power and versatility.

This is definitely up for discussion though. There's also a bit of a grey area that I understand (Genesect for instance), but first I think we should figure out what criteria we're using before listing which legendaries go where.

Mega Stones:
Another thing that needs to be discussed more thoroughly I think is how to distribute Mega Stones and Primal Reversion items. Right now the idea seems to be to just give it away within the dungeon as an extra hard boss fight. This is fine for most cases, but I'm not sure how this will work for certain Pokemon. To give an example, let's say Gamefreak gives away a Primal Regigigas late in Generation 7, and let's assume somebody caught it at the tail end of Generation 6. Are we going to force that trainer to capture the Pokemon all over again just for the item?

Note that this only includes Mega Stones, Primal Reversions, and maybe stuff like the Gracidea. Things like the DNA Splicers and Adamant Orb can usually be distributed in that dungeon win or lose the boss fight.

 

[smashlloyd20]

I would like to bring something up about the current TLRs. It came up in IRC today when I was discussing Regigigas. As such I might be a little biased here but I'll try to limit it as much as I can.

TLR Difficulty:
Essentially, what criteria are we using for determining what dungeons deserve "Training", "Legendary", and "Uber" difficulty status? At first I thought it was just "how much this legend breaks ASB", but now I'm not so sure. The thing is, I've received word that the upcoming Darkrai and Cresselia dungeon is getting a Legendary dungeon (admittedly a really hard legendary dungeon) while Regigigas currently has an Uber dungeon. If we're basing this off of how powerful the Pokemon is, this does not really make a whole lot of sense to me, as we're comparing a Pokemon that has the most powerful sleep move in ASB (sans Spore arguably) having an "easier" dungeon than a Pokemon who's crippled with a 4 Rank Attack and 50 Speed for 5 Actions.

Enough about that comparison though, what I think really needs to be created is some kind of criteria for what gets placed in what difficulty mode. This prevents TLR creators from making dungeons that are easier or harder than they're supposed to be. To give an idea of what I mean, I'll give my own ideas for each difficulty:
.

To be honest, I always assumed that how difficult TLRs are were more dependent on the rarity/lore/in-game difficulty of the legend than how good it actually is in ASB. TLRs were designed more as a way to get legendaries as 'trophies' more than to get an actual strong mon-I could see Mewtwo-tier legendaries being banned from most of ASB once people actually get them.

EDIT: grammar