Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scolipede.3495158/
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A- I feel that scolipede plays a big role, being able to have the option of sweeping, or baton passing off to another pokemon such as a garchomp maybe. It already has a base 100 attack as it is, which is pretty high already. It also has the ability of Speed boost: This Pokemon's Speed is boosted by 1 at the end of each full turn on the field. I feel this pokemon should be moved out for it's power and support.​

Base 100 attack is average by OU standards, not high. Also, Scolipede is easily walled by the likes of Ferrothorn and Skarmory, and Baton Passing is inconsistent because it is annoying for some teams, but others can easily stop it. Therefore, I am against bring Scolipede up to A- Rank.
 
Have half of you even used Lucario before? From what youre saying, clearly not. Lucario is a Late game sweeper, its not going to be setting up at turn 6 and sweeping team of mons at full health. At late game, when all mons are guaranteed to have taken some prior damage be it from SR or whatever, this is the point where it shines, cleaning through the two premier sweep stoppers. The fact that SO is decreasing in usage is also p good for him as excadrill was a good stop to it. The biggest issues it has are the base 90 speed against anything that resists Espeed and is faster, although access to BP lets it beat two good checks in Scarftar and Terrakion, and 4mss, with that last slot having a lot of competition and determines what walls him, Ice Punch, Iron Tail, BP, Crunch ect all beat certain mons that wall him otherwise. Those issues aside, Lucario doesnt have all that much trouble sweeping with the current meta, few teams actually have a reliable answer to it and mons that are usually slapped teams on to prevent sweeps, like bird and Thund-I, are useless against it. I dont really mind where it goes just remember that its a late game sweeper, so dont post some bullshit calcs of it needing rocks to OHKO when 90% of the time they will have taken prior damage during the match.
 
View attachment 27306+ View attachment 27307 -> stay in A-
Lots of people are rambling how defensive teams are now bad, but in real truth, they are not. daftmau5 can back me up here. I have been running a semi stall with these two Pokemon and they are such a great backbone. Yes wallbreakers can break the core, but thats what other team mates are for. And don't be like magezone beats skarm!!!! coz all skarmory run shed shell. They both provide ridiculous support, check/counter a huge amount of the meta and both are still A- in my eyes.

View attachment 27308 -> B+
This has been bugging me a lot, so ill state why Magnezone needs to drop. Magnezone is mostly found on teams that use momentum and power to overwhelm the opponent, with key Pokemon being eliminated with the use of Magnezone's ability. But there are two really glaring flaws that prevent Magnezone from being an A- Pokemon. The biggest flaw in my eyes is the absolute ridiculous popularity of landorus-therian on literally 60% of every single OU team. By simply having a landorus-therian, you pressure your opponent into a high risk situation, do you go for the volt-switch to gain momentum, with the possibility to lose all momentum? Or do you go for a flash cannon hopping to catch the lando-t. There is simply too huge a risk for a Pokemon that is supposed to be towards the low risk high reward end of the spectrum. Lastly, magnezone is getting lots of popularity from catching the all deadly skarm to stop the sweepers of the team, yet every single Skarmory in this meta is pretty much shed shell. Meaning magnezone can't even catch and KO the Pokemon int supposed to. Overall magnezone is good, but two really glaring flaws prevent it from being an A- Pokemon.

View attachment 27311-> C-/C
This thing is way more viable than all the D rank pokemon, and actually has a solid niche in trapping annoying pokemon, laying stealth rocks ect.

Hey guys I'm going to nominate Lando-T for B- Rank because Flying is everywhere . Do I lose all momentum with EQ or go for the Stone Edge? (Jacks0n, if no other Pokemon with access to VS/U-turn has been dropped for that reason, then I doubt it should be a huge reason to drop Magezone.)

About your "OMG EVERY SKARM RUNS SHED SHELL IT NEEDS TO DROP" I have 2 reasons why this is the most flawed argument ever: 1) Skarmory, by running Shed Shell (keeping in mind this is ONLY for Magnezone) misses out on gradual recovery or chip damage on the opponent when it's attacked by a contact move. I'd say that it's a pretty damn huge thing to lose those, even if it does mean you escape Mag. And why does Skarmory absolutely HAVE to run Shed Shell? Because of Magnezone and Magnezone alone. That's a pretty big sign that Magnezone is a huge force in the current metagame. 2) Magnezone doesn't just trap Skarmory. It's more worth noting that it ALSO traps Scizor (specszone creeps MScizor now, ignore the analysis) and even Ferrothorn, and these Pokemon cannot afford to run Shed Shell at all.

NO ONE is saying defensive teams are bad. The standards are just changing. Likely, with a Skarmchans core on a stall team, it's hard to actually have the rest of the team dealing with almost the entire metagame, unlike before. Keep in mind, this is EXACTLY what a stall team has to do, essentially meaning these Pokemon certainly can't catch up. They're also extremely passive, another glaring flaw. Also seeing as cores like Double Bunny w Mag and Lando-T Mag Pinsir-M completely destroy this defensive core (if Mag does have Shed Shell it just faces of worse against what it's supposed to counter), It's very clear to me that both of them have to drop to B+.
 
About your "OMG EVERY SKARM RUNS SHED SHELL IT NEEDS TO DROP" I have 2 reasons why this is the most flawed argument ever: 1) Skarmory, by running Shed Shell (keeping in mind this is ONLY for Magnezone) misses out on gradual recovery or chip damage on the opponent when it's attacked by a contact move. I'd say that it's a pretty damn huge thing to lose those, even if it does mean you escape Mag. And why does Skarmory absolutely HAVE to run Shed Shell? Because of Magnezone and Magnezone alone. That's a pretty big sign that Magnezone is a huge force in the current metagame.
Just a small nitpick (I agree with the rest of what you said for the most part btw), but Skarmory really doesn't mind running Shed Shell. This isn't like Ferrothorn where you absolutely need Leftovers. Skarmory is physically bulky enough to not need passive recovery for any specific KOs, at least to my knowledge. The fact that the preferred item on Skarmory used to be Rocky Helmet should tell you that.

What you didn't mention is that Magnezone teams have adapted to Shed Shell Skarm and are now starting to run Knock Off on MPinsir. This is a pretty big problem from Skarmory since it's obviously your switch in to MPinsir is the first place, unless you also use Doublade which gets popped by it too lol. And it's not like this is an obscure thing exclusively used by tour players to counterteam each other either. Recently, I've been seeing a lot of Knock Off MPinsirs even on the ladder, this set has really caught on in an impressive way. Not saying Skarmory should drop, but Magnezone teams definitely have ways of getting around Shed Shell Skarm now, and that's a problem for it.
 
Magnezone shouldn't drop. In terms of how it affects team building and the meta, it's one of the most defining mons at the moment. Mega Scizor and Ferro in particular take a huge beating and become nearly dead weight, and Skarm's Shed Shell is generally pretty easy to workaround for those teams because they always pair Zone with Knock Off Lando-T or even put Knock Off on Pinsir itself so that not even godly prediction can save you. Magnezone has really good typing and bulk and it pretty much always does something useful in every game (especially with a scarf, which makes it good against offense as well) the trapping aspect though basically gives you a free kill if your opponent has anything that is weak to zone and consequently puts huge pressure on the opponent at preview just by having one on your team.
 
I nominate ampheros to B

Alright, I feel like amphy is a lot better than the other B- mons, and is a lot easier to justify using on a team. It also have two very good sets, which include spdeff and agility. The spdeff set is a great check to a lot of common mons, such as Thundurus, talonflame, keldeo, cc mega pinsir, and a lot of mons on rain. It have somewhat reliable recovery in rest, though it have to rely on sleep talk for the next two turns.

It's agility set is also really good, with its very high base 165 spa to back it up, as well as its nice bulk to back it up almost guarantee it to get a set up. When it is at plus 2 it can easily take on even strong priority, such as espeed and talonflames bands brave bird, and retaliat back with a powerful stab thunder or thunderbolt. This set is also a really good when passed a np from togekiss, and +2 +2 amphy is just extremely good.

I also think it is at least as good as mega garchomp, who is just a weaker mega wallbreaker. Ampheros have a lot of positive treats that I belive makes it worthy of B rank. It is a lot better than stuff such as zapdos, conkeldurr, and chesnaught. It is also easily as good as a lot of the other B rank mons, such as mega chomp, staraptor and quagsire.

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(B-) -> B
 
The problem with Lucario is that offensive teams pack a lot of answers to +2 Extremespeed, such as Scarf Tyranitar, Mega Aerodactyl, Sand Rush Excadrill, Gengar, Terrakion, and Scarf Landorus-T. And those that don't, usually don't give any chance to Lucario to set up and don't mind saccing a Pokemon to avoid getting swept.

Also, Mew is not a big problem for Lucario, +2 Iron Tail does 84.4% minimum to 252 HP / 104 Def+ Mew, and +2 Crunch always OHKOes after SR.

Maybe it's time to try a dual priority set with Lucario, as most of its checks on offense are vulnerable to Bullet Punch, and +2 Bullet Punch even takes care of some defensive answers at +2, mainly SR Clefable.
The problem with Crunch and Iron Tail are that the Pokemon you'll want to use it for are usually faster than you or aren't run on an offensive team. You'll get more solid sweeps out of Bullet Punch since the few offensive answers to Lucario that are run without being conscious of him are beaten at +2.

That, and Iron Tail is pretty bad overall. You hit Mega Venu, slow Mew, Unaware Clefable (and ONLY Unaware Clefable), then miss out on the rest of the meta? Pass.
 
The problem with Crunch and Iron Tail are that the Pokemon you'll want to use it for are usually faster than you or aren't run on an offensive team. You'll get more solid sweeps out of Bullet Punch since the few offensive answers to Lucario that are run without being conscious of him are beaten at +2.

That, and Iron Tail is pretty bad overall. You hit Mega Venu, slow Mew, Unaware Clefable (and ONLY Unaware Clefable), then miss out on the rest of the meta? Pass.
Mega Venusaur, most Mew (i haven't seen a Mew running more than 276 Speed), Clefable, Cresselia, Amoonguss (assuming Sleep Clause isn't active), Mega Heracross, Gliscor, and defensive Landorus-T (assuming it's a bit weakened). Quite a big number of defensive and even some offensive Pokemon (Mega Venusaur and Mega Heracross). In the end, it depends on whether you prefer breaking past slower or faster teams.
 
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Talking about some Pokemon that needed more discussion:

Victini should stay in B+:
I know it is Pursuit-weak and doesn't like Stealth Rock, but I don't think that alone would prevent it from moving up (especially because it can burn Pursuit-Trapper). My main problem with Victini (talking about Stalltini btw) is that it is weak to Stealth Rock AND has no recovery. A defensive Pokemon with no recovery and weak to hazards is not something I would put in A-. It needs too much team support to function well and most of the time I would rather use CharizardX as defensive fire-type or Mew/Slowbro as defensive psycho-type. It is good, but not good enough for A-.
Wallbreaking-Victini is not really needed right now since there are still not many stall-teams, so I don't see a reason to move it up because of this set.

Weavile should stay B-:
Weavile is very strong, has a powerful and useful STAB in Knock Off, a very good Speed Tier and even priority. The main problem I see with moving it up is that it is only very effective against fast HO-teams. Stall-teams or bulky HO-teams don't have too much trouble with him, and many teams I see right now are more bulky HO with alot of Azumarills and Keldeos. I think Weavile was better before Aegislash- and Mawile-ban, were Landorus-Thundurus-Bisharp-Aegislash was everywhere. It just struggles against most teams right now, but does very well against fast HO-teams. B- seems pretty solid for me.

Houndoom should stay in C+:
This guy is really underrated, but B- seems too high for me right now. It has a decent stallbreaking-set and good speed tier to not suck against offense, but it sadly has a horrible 4MSS. It needs Fire Blast and Dark Pulse as main STABs, Nasty Plot and Taunt to actually stallbreak, HP Grass to not get fucked by Azumarill and Keldeo and is weak to Stealth Rocks which limits its switch-ins.
While it can live an Aqua Jet from Azumarill, Azumarill itself lives an HP Grass very easily:

+2 252+ SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 188-222 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And this is modest Houndoom...

It can be very effective, but needs way too much team support to be on the same level as most B- -Pokemon.

Kyurem-B should stay in A-:
I don't really see a problem with this guy. Most stall teams today don't have Chansey anymore, which is the only Pokemon Kyurem cannot beat without Outrage and even if there is one in the opponent's team, Chansey is still passive as hell and gives free switches to alot of other stuff in your team.
It is true that it cannot break everything at the same time, but it doesn't have to. You don't want to be walled by special defensive Clefable? Iron Head. Ferrothorn is a problem and you don't want to run Magnezone? HP Fire. You don't like Rotom-W? Earth Power. Slowbro is annoying for your team? Fusion Bolt.
Most importantly, it can adjust very well to the meta. Stall-teams are not that common right now, but Kyurem doesn't really care, since it can run Scarf or Assault Vest. Scarf-set can be pretty annoying for offensive teams because of the coverage options Kyurem has and you have to scout for. Assault Vest lets it live some attacks it shouldn't have lived and gives him more switch-in opportunities. If it wouldn't be weak to Stealth Rocks, I would suggest to move it up to A for its ability to adapt to the metagame.
Last but not least, not taking up a mega-slot and still being strong is always good.

Togekiss should stay in C+:
Nasty-Pass is awesome, but I would rather say this prevents it from falling down to C. Baton Pass is really difficult right now because of all the wallbreakers and offensive teams. There are just not many setup-opportunities for it and its medicore speed (it needs HP-investment to actually set up) lets it not pass very often. Garchomp and passive Pokemon are probably the only Pokemon it can always setup reliably and that is not enough for me to rise it to B-.

Tangrowth to C+:
I agree with something! I used it recently and it is actually very good. Equipped with an Assault Vest it tanks hits better than some other grass-types. Thanks to its ability it is a very good counter to Rotom-W and check to Voltturn-teams in general (U-Turn from Scizor still hurts...) and Knock Off is a nice move against many checks and counters that want to come in. Combined with HP Fire to punish Mega-Scizors which are thinking that they come in for free and you have a very effective Pokemon in your team. And, of course, it resists Earthquake, something Venusaur and Amoonguss don't do. Move it up.

Crawdaunt for B-:
I always supported this, and I support it now. There are no real switch-ins to this guy, it just runs through defensive cores like they are nothing. With Crunch, the speed to outspeed Mega-Venusaur and Swords Dance it has everything that it needs to break down everything you want to switch into it. Even Keldeo and Azumarill can only switch in once before they get KO'ed the next time (and loosing Specs/Scarf on Keldeo or AV on Azumarill is nothing good too).
With a bit of support (especially screens are working very well) it can find setup-opportunities against offensive teams and just Aquajet everything in sight. Bulky offensive teams have to deal with the strongest physical water-move (Crabhammer from Crawdaunt) or a ridiciulously powerful Knock Off. Way too underrated, way too good for C+. Move it up to B-.

Venomoth for D:
Baton Pass is bad in this meta, but it is not completely outclassed by Smeargle or Gorebyss. Smeargle has to rely on Focus Sash and Gorebyss on White Herb to not decreasing the defense. It has a better ability too to prevent taunting or Spore sometimes. An aggressive set is sadly outclassed by Volcarona which is outclassed by other setup-sweepers. Move it down to D, but not unranking because it is not completely outclassed.

Amoonguss should move down to B+
I agree with this, after activating the sleep clause it is too passive to actually do something. It is still good, but not as good as it was. Nothing more to say here.

No sub-rank raise for rain-sweepers:
We should look at the rainsweepers themselves and how good they are against the defensive and offensive threats in this metagame, not raising everything. Sadly, I don't play rain so I can't say much about it.

Gastrodon should move up to C+:
Useful on rain teams and useful against rain teams. Good defensive typing, decent bulk and impressive movepool. I never used it, but it seems enough to move it up to C+.
 
I don't think its really necessary to put Venomoth for D cause of Baton pass being limited. Despite the move being limited or bad doesn't mean its not viable still. You can continue using the move right after one of your sweeper faints and then give the Baton Pass to the next sweeper you have on your team. It can still use Sleep Powder and Quiver to sweep as well as get a boost from its ability, Tinted Lens in powering up not very effective moves against the opposing pokemon. Venomoth is more viable than Gorebyss for baton pass as well as it has better speed. Also Quiver Dance boosts up your sp. defense. It also has access to the recovery move, Roost unlike Gorebyss that has to Shell Smash and try to hit as much as it can before it dies.

That's why I said it is NOT outclassed by Gorebyss. Gorebyss can pass better speed and (special-) attack than Venomoth, but it has not the great trade-offs that Venomoth provides.
Also, I didn't say Baton Pass is not viable, it is just not as good anymore. It is hard to setup AND pass while facing so many hard hitters in the current metagame.
That is why said it should drop to D because Baton Pass is now worse in general, but NOT unranked because it is not outclassed by the other passers (maybe even drop Gorebyss, but I'm not sure about that).
 
Mega Venusaur, most Mew (i haven't seen a Mew running more than 276 Speed), Clefable, Cresselia, Amoonguss (assuming Sleep Clause isn't active), Mega Heracross, Gliscor, and defensive Landorus-T (assuming it's a bit weakened). Quite a big number of defensive and even some offensive Pokemon (Mega Venusaur and Mega Heracross). In the end, it depends on whether you prefer breaking past slower or faster teams.
I wouldn't say your list is incorrect, but it's irrespective of context. Scarf Lando-T is dominant on offense, while Cresselia and Amoong are exclusively stall. Again, the Clefable has to be Unaware or it'll die to Bullet Punch with prior damage and not even get off a Flamethrower (which doesn't OHKO). Gliscor, I admit, I forgot about, but I'm not really seeing any offensive checks in there otherwise.
 
I wouldn't say your list is incorrect, but it's irrespective of context. Scarf Lando-T is dominant on offense, while Cresselia and Amoong are exclusively stall. Again, the Clefable has to be Unaware or it'll die to Bullet Punch with prior damage and not even get off a Flamethrower (which doesn't OHKO). Gliscor, I admit, I forgot about, but I'm not really seeing any offensive checks in there otherwise.
I was just listing Pokemon that Iron Tail covers. Also, both SpD Gliscor and Mega Heracross are Pokemon seen on offense that Lucario can't get past with Bullet Punch. And i already agreed that Bullet Punch > Iron Tail against offensive teams in general, so we may be arguing in vein because we don't even disagree on anything...
 
Venomoth should be D. It may not good, but the combination of Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder + Baton pass + Wonder skin is unique to this pokemon (and with the right support) it can be effective.

Even if Venomoth is not viable in OU it should be put in E ranking* because the lower tier where it's usable is OU.

*I'm not suggesting that things like Donphan, Darmanitan, Arcanine or Heliolisk should be officially ranked as E rank. I think that E rank should exist only in case the pokemon is bad (or terribly outclassed) in OU but it isn't available in any other lower tier.
 
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Venomoth should be D. It may not good, but the combination of Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder + Baton pass + Wonder skin is unique to this pokemon (and with the right support) it can be effective.

Even if Venomoth is not viable in OU it should be put in E ranking* because the lower tier where it's usable is OU.

*I'm not suggesting that things like Donphan, Darmanitan, Arcanine or Heliolisk should be officially ranked as E rank. I think that E rank should exist only in case the pokemon is bad (or terribly outclassed) in OU but it isn't available in any other lower tier.
I'm not too certain whether this would be a good idea. I mean, I've already seen people complaining about D, so E would make the whining worse. Besides, Venomoth is BL, not OU, so it doesn't need to be ranked.
 
Baton Pass isn't worse in general despite limiting it down to one pokemon considering Ninjask can make excellent use of the move as like I said it can keep passing onto sweepers. Also, when you say, its hard to pass while facing many hard hitters, that doesn't mean you keep Venomoth in trying to get Sleep Powder off and then try to go for a Quiver Pass against the pokemon its being threatened by. Pretty much, you will always switch out until its the right time to set up for Venomoth. Nobody would keep it in against something that could potentially kill it. Even a pokemon that's slower for Venomoth, it can put its opponent to sleep and can set up whether or not the opponent switches. That brings me to my question as Gorebyss is NU and why Venomoth is BL.

Gorebyss is slower and on top of that, lacks any kind of recovery compared to Venomoth. What if you use Shell Smash and then White Herb and pass and then again try to do the same thing? You've now lowered your defenses leaving you open to being OHKO. Or, you just passed onto stats to a pokemon with lowered defenses. Baton Pass is still okay but it depends on the kind of pokemon you use it with.

A few quick points. Being able to set up QuiverPass several times really shouldn't matter that much compared to a one time SmashPass, as you are most likely not going to get a second window to set-up and pass. That's also assuming you get a first window to set-up, which you really don't every battle regardless of Sleep Powder shenanigans. Second, SmashPass can be used effectively with more teammates, and gets you a bigger initial boost. The ability to pass +2 Attack/Special Attack and +2 Speed to any sweeper on your team is more valuable than passing a Calm Mind and +1 Speed to only a special sweeper imo.
 
Sorry, but I believe that D rank should be the bottom line when it comes to tiering. You can't pass an academic class with an E grade, and you probably won't win much using an E-grade Pokemon in OU. D rank pokemon only perform one very niche role on a team. For example, Lanturn will fuck over electric types such as Magnezone, Manectric,Raikou, and Thundurus, Other than that, Lanturn has all the traits of an NU pokemon and is outclassed in every way by Rotom-W. D rank pokemon are only used (well in most cases) as a way to hard counter metagame trends. If Thundurus and his priority T-wave wasn't an issue, then why would rain use Sesmitoad?

Anyway, on the stance of Venomoth, I really believe it should be D or Unranked and we ought to shift away from baton passers not named Smeargle, Gorebyss, and Scolipede. I won't go into much detail about Gore and Scolipede since they pass different stuff. But i'l focus on Smeargle.

First of all, sleep powder is not an 100% accurate move like Spore. Also, it doesn't affect every type of mon like Dark Void (also DV has an 80% chance of sleep vs. SP at 75%). With either move, Smeargle has a better chance of incapacitating a mon than Venomoth does. In addition, Smeargle can learn Quiver Dance.

I know Timid Venomoth (306 speed) has a better chance of passing boosts against Jolly Mega Heracross (286 Normal Hera beats Smeargle's 275 on turn 1) and can pass against Mew and Tauntran without mindgames. But that's really the only thing I see with using Veno > Smeargle (who can also pass the superior Geomancy btw). Yes I know the argument of, "but Venomoth has a superior sp.atk stat" but let's be real folks, when is Venomoth going to use that uninvested base 90 shit? Wonder skin? So you're relying on the RNG half the time to do your job? At least with Dark Void Sash Smeargle, I have an 80% chance of putting anything to sleep as long as Espeon isn't on the team or a fast taunter like Terrakion, Thundy, Mew, or Tran. (But what Smeargle doesn't run Magic Coat lol?"

I feel as if Venomoth is way too reliant on matchups, luck, and Sleep Powder to be effective. So it should be D or Unranked.
 
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Just gonna spark a little discussion that may or may not be interesting: is Mega Heracross good enough to be S? I've been thinking about this and, honestly, I'm on the fence. It's got so many great attributes in the current metagame, having brutal power, great overall bulk for an attacker, forces a huge amount of switches, can easily be slapped on teams, has high-power moves to go with that magnificent Attack stat and has a pretty good typing to switch in on attacks as well. What holds it back? Well, weakness to Fire-, Fairy-, Psychic- and especially Flying-type moves hinder its ability to come in or stay in and its Speed stat may be a bit disappointing. I personally believe Mega Heracross has what it takes to be S-Rank, but I'm just as fine with it staying A+.
 
Baton Pass isn't worse in general despite limiting it down to one pokemon considering Ninjask can make excellent use of the move as like I said it can keep passing onto sweepers. Also, when you say, its hard to pass while facing many hard hitters, that doesn't mean you keep Venomoth in trying to get Sleep Powder off and then try to go for a Quiver Pass against the pokemon its being threatened by. Pretty much, you will always switch out until its the right time to set up for Venomoth. Nobody would keep it in against something that could potentially kill it. Even a pokemon that's slower for Venomoth, it can put its opponent to sleep and can set up whether or not the opponent switches. That brings me to my question as Gorebyss is NU and why Venomoth is BL.

Gorebyss is slower and on top of that, lacks any kind of recovery compared to Venomoth. What if you use Shell Smash and then White Herb and pass and then again try to do the same thing? You've now lowered your defenses leaving you open to being OHKO. Or, you just passed onto stats to a pokemon with lowered defenses. Baton Pass is still okay but it depends on the kind of pokemon you use it with.

Baton Pass IS worse in general. Even with Sleep Powder it is hard to find a time to actually setup and pass effectively. And no, you can't just switch in and out with Venomoth because it is weak to Stealth Rocks. It just needs to come in pretty much safely, put something to sleep and trying to setup and pass. And this is hard to accomplish since the metagame is very offensive. Most of the time you don't have just one Pokemon that threatens Venomoth, there are 2 or 3 or more that it would like to have asleep. Birdspammer, Lati@s, Tyranitar, Charizard, Landorus, Terrakion, Azumarill, Keldeo and many other threats, that are very common. Most of the Pokemon in S- and A-Rank don't really care about Venomoth.
That's why in most common scenerios you put something to sleep, setup one Dance and pass it to a sweeper. This is good and awesome, but nothing really troublesome (only maybe against frail teams). After that it has a hard time to do it again since it can't put anything to sleep anymore.

SmashPass is in general better than QuiverPass, but still not bad and can be effective. Still, in an offensive meta it is hard to find these setup-opportunities. I wouldn't mind if it stays C-, but the meta is really hard to the poor moth.

Maybe we can let it be in C- and wait until the meta settles down more (it still seems to change a bit), maybe defensive teams will rise in usage again.

And for your question why it is BL:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...m-info-bl-retest-record.3502698/#post-5555555

Mostly because of the luck it implements with Wonder Skin + Sleep Turns and of course as an excellent QuiverPasser. Sadly, everything that gives Venomoth trouble is in OU.
 
MHera is very good but it does have quite a few flaws that stop it from being S. The biggest one IMO is that it loses to every other relevant wallbreaker in the tier 1v1. Lando-I has Psychic, MMedi can Zen Headbutt, MGarde Hyper Voices it, YZard roasts it, and it takes up to 333% from MPinsir's Return. I know that 1v1 scenarios aren't very relevant, but it's pretty nice to have your wallbreaker be able to revenge kill the opposing team's wallbreaker, therefore enabling it to come in against offense once something has been KOed by the wallbreaker in question. Also, while its low speed isn't really a detriment vs offense (everything on there outspeeds the other wallbreakers too anyway), it actually can a problem vs stall and balance. No defensive Pokemon cannot afford to outspeed the wallbreakers that lie at base 100 Speed, but they can do so for MHera. In fact, Jolly is the preferred nature on MHera mainly for that reason, and some defensive Pokemon even creep that (Mew and SpD XZard, for instance). On the other hand, MMedi, MGarde, and YZard can easily afford an Adamant/Modest nature, which makes them even harder to switch into.

If there's a wallbreaker which deserves S rank, it's MPinsir IMO. I think it's about time we move this terrifying beast up, since it has been dominating the metagame for quite a while now. It is just ridiculously potent against defensive teams, and SD+Quick Attack lets it clean offense too. Its decent natural bulk means it can switch in on the vast majority of defensive Pokemon, and it also has an easy time switching into Ground and Fighting moves. Its SR weakeness is a problem, but it doesn't need to switch in too often, and even a Pinsir at 25% can put in a ton of work. Furthermore, what team doesn't have Defog or Spin support nowadays? MPinsir currently has no truly good defensive answers, since it is very good at wearing said defensive answers down, and has even developed a way with, when paired with Magnezone, dispose of Shed Shell Skarmory very reliably.

I wan't really confident before, but at this point in the metagame, I feel like we should move Mega-Pinsir to S rank
 
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Just gonna spark a little discussion that may or may not be interesting: is Mega Heracross good enough to be S? I've been thinking about this and, honestly, I'm on the fence. It's got so many great attributes in the current metagame, having brutal power, great overall bulk for an attacker, forces a huge amount of switches, can easily be slapped on teams, has high-power moves to go with that magnificent Attack stat and has a pretty good typing to switch in on attacks as well. What holds it back? Well, weakness to Fire-, Fairy-, Psychic- and especially Flying-type moves hinder its ability to come in or stay in and its Speed stat may be a bit disappointing. I personally believe Mega Heracross has what it takes to be S-Rank, but I'm just as fine with it staying A+.
I love Mega Hera, but it has to be handcuffed to at least one (but usually two) BirdSpam checks or counters. Any Talonflame gives it a big headache. Personally, I've used Mega Hera maybe twice without Rhyperior (and I use Mega Hera a lot). I will say it functions better against offensive teams than Medi, Gard and Char-Y, because it can take a lot of neutral hits and hit back hard. Also, Mega Hera does do a good job of blowing up the TarDrill Sand core that is so common right now. Ultimately, it needs just enough support to be effective.

MHera is very good but it does have quite a few flaws that stop it from being S. The biggest one IMO is that it loses to every other relevant wallbreaker in the tier 1v1. Lando-I has Psychic, MMedi can Zen Headbutt, MGarde Hyper Voices it, YZard roasts it, and it takes up to 333% from MPinsir's Return. I know that 1v1 scenarios aren't very relevant, but it's pretty nice to have your wallbreaker be able to revenge kill the opposing team's wallbreaker, therefore enabling it to come in against offense once something has been KO'd. Also, while its low speed isn't really a detriment vs offense (everything on there outspeeds the other wallbreakers too anyway), it actually can a problem vs stall and balance. No defensive Pokemon cannot afford to outspeed the wallbreakers that lie at base 100 Speed, but they can do so for MHera. In fact, Jolly is the preferred nature on MHera mainly for that reason, and some defensive Pokemon even creep that (Mew and SpD XZard, for instance). On the other hand, MMedi, MGarde, and YZard can easily afford an Adamant/Modest nature, which makes them even harder to switch into.
I have a few problems with this. First, I don't use my wallbreaker to beat other wallbreakers, I use it to blow up defensive cores. DD Char-X loses to Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyara 1v1, but it is clearly the best of the three. Also, Mega Hera is by far the bulkiest out of the group. That makes up for the fact that it is slower than the other Megas. Sure having 100 speed is nice, but it isn't what it used to be. Mega Hera can take any attack from LO Rush Excadrill, I'd like to see Medi or Gard do that. Heck, it survives a Latias Psyshock 80% of the time(!!!). Also, the 240 Speed SD set is fine. It blows up SkarmChan and VenuTran cores, in addition to beating almost every other stallmon. SDef Char-X speed creeping it means it has to run less overall bulk, allowing other things to take advantage of that lesser of bulk. I think Mega Hera personally preforms the best against offense out of the Hera-Medi-Gard-Char-Y group, regardless of how slow it is.
 
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MHera is very good but it does have quite a few flaws that stop it from being S. The biggest one IMO is that it loses to every other relevant wallbreaker in the tier 1v1. Lando-I has Psychic, MMedi can Zen Headbutt, MGarde Hyper Voices it, YZard roasts it, and it takes up to 333% from MPinsir's Return. I know that 1v1 scenarios aren't very relevant, but it's pretty nice to have your wallbreaker be able to revenge kill the opposing team's wallbreaker, therefore enabling it to come in against offense once something has been KO'd. Also, while its low speed isn't really a detriment vs offense (everything on there outspeeds the other wallbreakers too anyway), it actually can a problem vs stall and balance. No defensive Pokemon cannot afford to outspeed the wallbreakers that lie at base 100 Speed, but they can do so for MHera. In fact, Jolly is the preferred nature on MHera mainly for that reason, and some defensive Pokemon even creep that (Mew and SpD XZard, for instance). On the other hand, MMedi, MGarde, and YZard can easily afford an Adamant/Modest nature, which makes them even harder to switch into.

If there's a wallbreaker which deserves S rank, it's MPinsir IMO. I think it's about time we move this terrifying beast up, since it has been dominating the metagame for quite a while now. It is just ridiculously potent against defensive teams, and SD+Quick Attack lets it clean offense too. Its decent natural bulk means it can switch in on the vast majority of defensive Pokemon, and it also has an easy time switching into Ground and Fighting moves. Its SR weakeness is a problem, but it doesn't need to switch in too often, and even a Pinsir at 25% can put in a ton of work. Furthermore, what team doesn't have Defog or Spin support nowadays? MPinsir currently has no truly good defensive answers, since it is very good at wearing said defensive answers down, and has even developed a way with, when paired with Magnezone, dispose of Shed Shell Skarmory very reliably.

I wan't really confident before, but at this point in the metagame, I feel like we should move Mega-Pinsir to S rank

So we refuse lando-t for S rank and yet we consider the most one dimensional mega that might as well require the most support of them all for S, bar char-y (Honestly i'd even argue that seeing as you need hazard control and a zone for pinsir these days, which is more support than char-y requires b/c scarftar is a good mon to start with).

Well where do we start. With the rise of shed shell skarm and doublade and rhyperior, its not as much of an issue as it seems to defensive teams. You could argue that "ooh they run knock off watch your ass out" but you could just as easily just run something like rhyperior or even zapdos mega aero and check pinsir just fine. Not to mention that a knock off pinsir performs FAR worse against offense. It runs one set and one set only, that is SD with close combat or knock off. Its a severe flaw that the moment the opponent sees a pinsir on your team, they know the exact ev spread, moves, item (:P) and nature of it off the bat.

It does have more natural bulk than i initially expected, i WILL admit, but its really not that bulky when you have a crippling SR weakness and downright pitiful bulk pre-evo. I find the argument that you can wear down your defensive counters extremely flawed because that's assuming you can actually come in multiple times. This argument only works with mons like keldeo which have actual natural bulk and solid typing to actually wear down its counters with repeated scalds.

So sure, lets pretend that it does well against defensive teams with knock off, even though rhyperior still stands as a ridiculously solid counter. Lets then move onto offense. Double intimidate cores have skyrocketed in popularity and quite frankly, whenever im' using this core and i see a pinsir on the opposing side I really dont' have to give a two shits about it. Scarf Lando-T and Mega Manectric are both extremely solid revenge killers commonly found on offensive teams, and their presence really hinders the performance of any pinsir team considering they're always around late game when played smart. As if that wasn't enough, you have to deal with excadrill, scarf tyranitar, scarf heatran, scarf garchomp, scarf terrakion, scarf kyurem-b, scarf magnezone, thundurus, and talonflame, all of which reliably revenge kill you. That's way too many revenge killers for an S rank mon lol. Considering the stable popularity of sand offense and the rising popularity of double intimidate cores, i'd reason that the metagame is actually quite hostile to Pinsir rn and should stay down. It may be reasonable with knock off against stall and stuff, but its raped by offense easily.

Keep in mind that you require hazard control AND a magnezone on the team AND knock off on your pinsir just to perform well against stall (lacking rhyperior!!!) That's far more support than even char-y, and atleast that has the raw bulk to actually check stuff. What does pinsir check, Conk?

Finally, I feel like people overhype the shit out of quick attack on pinsir. They feel like once you grab a boost you're just golden against offense or something. I'm not even talking about scarf mons or resists at this point, i can check a +2 pinsir with my full health latios after rocks easily, and that's kinda disappointing for a mon that relies so hard on its priority to "clean offense" and not even reliably kill a mon with 80/80 physical bulk after rocks.

TL; DR mpinsir is 2ez to revenge, not versatile in the slightest, needs considerable support and performs pretty badly against the current meta offense. Keep at A+
 
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How do people feel about Mega Aerodactyl? I've written about a defensive set it can run a couple times before, and while I haven't been laddering lately there's these Zone+Pinsir+Diggersby stuff that (I'm told) are having a pretty big influence right now, and Aerodactyl can check Pinsir (ESPECIALLY if it runs Knock Off over CC/EQ) and Diggersby pretty well, and can't be trapped by Magnezone.

I'm not nominating it for anything cause I've not been playing much, but it's something to think about.
 
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How do people feel about Mega Aerodactyl? I've written about a defensive set it can run a couple times before, and while I haven't been laddering lately there's these Zone+Pinsir+Diggersby stuff that (I'm told) are having a pretty big influence right now, and Aerodactyl can check Pinsir (ESPECIALLY if it runs Knock Off over CC/EQ) and Diggersby pretty well, and can't be trapped by Magnezone.

I'm not nominating it for anything cause I've not been playing much, but it's something to think about.

Oh its defensive set is marvelous in the current Meta. Being able to takee out the standard DiggersZoneSir core with basic rock slide EQ and aqua tail is beautiful and he take hits from the now slightly borked Pinsir (knock off so much easier to absorb) much better. Aero's job of fighting the threeis much easier especially if you decide said defensive set is going jolly so you sac those speed EVs for more defends. If only he could run roost and Flying STAB then it wiuld be even better but ah well (Flying Stab that attacks mind you).


But yah he is a load of fun ATM and has been for awhile :D
 
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