Azumarill struggles to break through most of its checks without a Choice Band. Greninja only struggles with certain Pokemon based on what coverage it carries + Chansey.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Azumarill struggles to break through most of its checks without a Choice Band. Greninja only struggles with certain Pokemon based on what coverage it carries + Chansey.
Umm well I'm gonna nominate Greninja back to A+ lol, it has paper thin defenses, so thin that it dies to like any decent powered attack, which also means it can't switch in to anything. It doesn't hit especially hard so it needs a life orb which wears it down to the point where it dies to moderately strong priority. It is fast but gets outsped and revenged killed by most scarf users. I think it is really good but i just don't think it defines the metagame enough to deserve S rank. I feel like the fact that it is a popular pokemon is part of why it got S in the first place because honestly I have just never had much trouble with it.
I opposed nominating Greninja to S rank to begin with, and I honestly do not see it as that restrictive in teambuilding when building offensive teams. It is really good against offense, but a prepared team will usually carry AV Azumarill + something faster than Greninja, even if it is a Scarf user that can reliably KO it. It is not the end of the world guys, Greninja is not anywhere close to being anywhere as good as Zard X, who is one of the most lethal late-game sweepers around and fits on stall as a means of hardchecking Stallbreaker Mew, or Keldeo, which can spam Scald to get past most of its checks. I nominated both Azumarill and Thundurus for A+, and their flaws are both as apparent as Greninja's flaws, so A+ is a natural choice for Greninja.
Completely agree, I havnt had to put pokemon that specifically are there for greninja, like Thunderus and Zard x, and Keldeo to an extent. Don't get me wrong it's a great pokemom it just isn't S rank. I feel like Landorus dropping is part of the reason people might've suggested it move up.
I think Azumarill has lost some viability because sand offense is not as common as it was a couple of months ago, but I can't see why it should drop.
If you need a check for HO teams, AV Azumarill is your best bet. No other pokemon does the job better. It stops sand offense (as said before), checks all the wallbreaking megas and most nonmega wallbreakers, checks the most common scarfers, has the bulk to switch in on things, has priority, has great offensive and defensive typing, and knocks off the items of pokemons it cannot hurt as much.
This sets struggles a bit more against balanced squads with clefable, mega scizor, slowbro, rotom-w, mew, and I'm sure there are a few others. Give it a choice band and none of these pokemons can switch in without dying. Only bulky grass types (usually only found on stall) can switch into this monster and force it out. You have a choice of whether to terrorize HO or terrorize balance.
I don't find Azu's situation that much different from Greninja's. Ninja can't cover everything either, and if running spikes it only gets 1 coverage move since hydro pump and ice beam are for the most part irreplaceable.
Azu stay in S
I support Thundy to drop. It's just too frail and scarf Lando-t is now the default option for checking DDers. Electric types are used as flying spam check and Thundurus can't even reliably do that, and its stealth rock weakness doesn't help. This also makes it greatly miss out on the utility of volt switch done much better by MMan and Raikou, both which actually beat Thundy 1v1.
Its NP set is still really good, can go mixed, and has a lot of coverage options. But yeah, it's just not worthy of S-rank anymore.
Thundy -> A+
My thoughts on Latios is that it really is the most useful pokemon in OU. It easily finds opportunities to defog because it just hits so hard and scares off a lot of things, is great as a lure to kill off its counters, has good coverage options, can heal off damage, checks a bunch of popular things and has enough bulk to switch in, and his speed tier is just fantastic. The fact that sand offense isn't as popular works even better for it, which means less Ttars running around trying to pursuit trap it. I think most of the things to say about Latios has already been better said by others, so I'll just drop my vote.
Latios -> S
If you need a check for HO teams, AV Azumarill is your best bet. No other pokemon does the job better. It stops sand offense (as said before), checks all the wallbreaking megas and most nonmega wallbreakers, checks the most common scarfers, has the bulk to switch in on things, has priority, has great offensive and defensive typing, and knocks off the items of pokemons it cannot hurt as much.
This sets struggles a bit more against balanced squads with clefable, mega scizor, slowbro, rotom-w, mew, and I'm sure there are a few others. Give it a choice band and none of these pokemons can switch in without dying. Only bulky grass types (usually only found on stall) can switch into this monster and force it out. You have a choice of whether to terrorize HO or terrorize balance.
I don't find Azu's situation that much different from Greninja's. Ninja can't cover everything either, and if running spikes it only gets 1 coverage move since hydro pump and ice beam are for the most part irreplaceable.
Azu stay in S
I support Thundy to drop. It's just too frail and scarf Lando-t is now the default option for checking DDers. Electric types are used as flying spam check and Thundurus can't even reliably do that, and its stealth rock weakness doesn't help. This also makes it greatly miss out on the utility of volt switch done much better by MMan and Raikou, both which actually beat Thundy 1v1.
Its NP set is still really good, can go mixed, and has a lot of coverage options. But yeah, it's just not worthy of S-rank anymore.
Thundy -> A+
My thoughts on Latios is that it really is the most useful pokemon in OU. It easily finds opportunities to defog because it just hits so hard and scares off a lot of things, is great as a lure to kill off its counters, has good coverage options, can heal off damage, checks a bunch of popular things and has enough bulk to switch in, and his speed tier is just fantastic. The fact that sand offense isn't as popular works even better for it, which means less Ttars running around trying to pursuit trap it. I think most of the things to say about Latios has already been better said by others, so I'll just drop my vote.
Latios -> S
Give it a Choice Band and it will struggle to take hits as reliably as it could with Assault Vest. Also, Azumarill is a horrible check to some of the wallbreaking Megas, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Medicham and Kyurem-B, all of which Azumarill cannot even switch in on.
Just to let you know, you need to explain why you agree they should drop or your post will probably get deleted.
With a CB, it performs a different function. It's not supposed to be taking hits. It's still bulkier than Greninja, hits harder, AND has priority. I fail to see how Greninja is S and Azu is not.
Also, it's a check. Not a counter. Pinsir is more of a sweeper and Azumarill destroys Gardevoir and Medicham. It even has a high chance (62.7%) to survive a t-punch from Medicham and kill it.
k gys respect my terribl opinion but i think golduck is viable. Since rain has been growing in usage this thing can abuse it with swift swim. But this thing would just be outclassed by everything if it didn't have a niche. First off this thing is faster then ludicolo & omastar(idk how relevant this is) so it is not forced to run so much speed and has slightly more firepower then colo and has the same base spatk as kingdra. this ducky also has some p sweet lures cuz he can use psychic and focus blast to kill ferrro and venu which is an asset to many rain teams. Altho colo can kill ferro, it can't kill ferro AND venu in one slot. It can also use moves like cm so it can hit p darn hard.
(do pictures make stuff more convincing?)
GOLDUCK FOR
A+D?
would like to see sum discussion :D
I've actually used Golduck before on rain teams and it isnt bad, but your post doesnt do it any justice. What Golduck has over other Swift Swimmers is a decently high special attack (base 95, which is the same as Kingdra, lower than Omastar, and higher than Ludicolo and Seismitoad) high speed (tied with Kingdra at base 85, which is fast for a swift swimmer) and a great movepool with surprise value. Keep in mind that although base 95 sp atk and base 85 speed arent great, Golduck is being used in the rain. So it's water stab gets a 1.5x boost and its speed is doubled, meaning that with 228 speed evs you can outspeed choice scarf latios, unless youd rather invest in bulk. Surprisingly enough, Golduck has more initial power than Kabutops and is tied with Kingdra for second due to Hydro Pump's high base power and is only behind omastar out of swift swimmers in the rain.
At this point, you might be thinking "even though Golduck has decent stats and is better than i thought, why would i use it over Omastar or Kingdra?" While Omastar and Kingdra are generally better, Golduck has a few important niches over both of them. Golduck's movepool is absolutely phenominal, despite not having a secondary stab. In a metagame where Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Amoongus are some of the most common road blocks to rain teams, Golduck has the right coverage to take them out. Focus Blast easily 2hkos Ferrothorn and Psychic 2hkos both Mega Venusaur and Amoongus. Sure, Omastar or Kingdra can probably get past these threats after a few switch ins (maybe not Amoongus though), but they need choice specs and good prediction (in Kingdra's case) to do this. Golduck, on the other hand, only needs a life orb to net these 2hkos and can usually 2hko most of the pokemon i mentioned with the combination of Hydro Pump and the appropriate coverage move, given theres a little bit of prior damage. Because of this, Golduck often doesnt even have to predict or resort to a choice item to beat these common threats to rain teams. Omastar has to continually spam Specs Hydro Pump to eventually wear them down (which wont work on Amoongus). Kingdra needs choice specs and good prediction if it wants a chance at taking down Mega Venusaur or Amoongus. Even with all of this, Draco Meteor drops Kingdra's sp atk and dragon pulse is piss weak. This means that even with a choice item and good prediction, Kingdra might barely get past Mega Venusaur, probably cant get past Amoongus (due to Regenerator) and cant get past Ferrothorn. Golduck can do all of this with a life orb and scores clean 2hkos, meaning that it wont have to keep switching out and back in to beat these roadblocks.
Now, you might be thinking "So Golduck fairs a little better against common stops to rain teams, but why not just use Tornadus-T or something else that can also reliably take them out?" To this I respond "If you sent in your Tornadus-T, your opponent would never send in Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, etc. However, if you sent in Golduck, your opponent probably would send in their Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, etc. and Golduck could easily take them out so another swift swimmer (such as Kingdra or Kabutops) could sweep." In this way, Golduck is a great lure for rain teams. It lures in annoying checks to rain and takes them out for other members or itself to sweep.
I wish I could stop talking about Golduck's movepool since this is taking me a while, but there are still more things it can do. Like many water types, Golduck get Ice Beam. Ice Beam obviously has great coverage with Golduck's water stab and can hit Lati@s and Dragonite hard, but it isnt necessary. Calm Mind is a decent option on Golduck as well. Golduck will often find chances to set up because its high power and speed forcing things out under rain. After one boost, Golduck can often clean teams up very well, especially if your opponent switched into their Ferrothorn or something that they think can take Golduck when in reality it cant while Golduck boosts. Neither Omastar nor Kingdra have access to Calm Mind. Finally, Golduck has the option to use Psyshock over Psychic, but only do this if your using choice specs on Golduck. With choice specs, Psyshock 2hkos assault vest Azumarill after stealth rock 100% of the time, which i think no other specially attacking Swift Swimmer can do. Also, Psyshock will net the necessary 2hkos against Amoongus and Mega Venusaur as long as you have choice specs, otherwise stick with Psychic.
Golduck @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Calm Mind
- Ice Beam / Calm Mind
For those too lazy to read all that was above, I will quickly explain the moveset. Psychic 2hkoes Mega Venusaur and Amoongus, Focus Blast 2hkos Ferrothorn, and Ice Beam has good coverage with water. Calm Mind is an option over Ice Beam and Focus Blast to attempt a sweep. Set up in something that Golduck can easily force out under rain with its high speed and power. Also, if youre using a Magnezone for Ferrothorn (or hate focus blast's accuracy) use calm mind over focus blast. Life Orb is almost always the superior choice over choice specs, however
If Seismitoad deserves D for being immune to Thunder Wave, than Golduck deserves D as well.
Edit: it just occurred to me to post a replay of Golduck in action
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-147662358
I've actually used Golduck before on rain teams and it isnt bad, but your post doesnt do it any justice. What Golduck has over other Swift Swimmers is a decently high special attack (base 95, which is the same as Kingdra, lower than Omastar, and higher than Ludicolo and Seismitoad) high speed (tied with Kingdra at base 85, which is fast for a swift swimmer) and a great movepool with surprise value. Keep in mind that although base 95 sp atk and base 85 speed arent great, Golduck is being used in the rain. So it's water stab gets a 1.5x boost and its speed is doubled, meaning that with 228 speed evs you can outspeed choice scarf latios, unless youd rather invest in bulk. Surprisingly enough, Golduck has more initial power than Kabutops and is tied with Kingdra for second due to Hydro Pump's high base power and is only behind omastar out of swift swimmers in the rain.
At this point, you might be thinking "even though Golduck has decent stats and is better than i thought, why would i use it over Omastar or Kingdra?" While Omastar and Kingdra are generally better, Golduck has a few important niches over both of them. Golduck's movepool is absolutely phenominal, despite not having a secondary stab. In a metagame where Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Amoongus are some of the most common road blocks to rain teams, Golduck has the right coverage to take them out. Focus Blast easily 2hkos Ferrothorn and Psychic 2hkos both Mega Venusaur and Amoongus. Sure, Omastar or Kingdra can probably get past these threats after a few switch ins (maybe not Amoongus though), but they need choice specs and good prediction (in Kingdra's case) to do this. Golduck, on the other hand, only needs a life orb to net these 2hkos and can usually 2hko most of the pokemon i mentioned with the combination of Hydro Pump and the appropriate coverage move, given theres a little bit of prior damage. Because of this, Golduck often doesnt even have to predict or resort to a choice item to beat these common threats to rain teams. Omastar has to continually spam Specs Hydro Pump to eventually wear them down (which wont work on Amoongus). Kingdra needs choice specs and good prediction if it wants a chance at taking down Mega Venusaur or Amoongus. Even with all of this, Draco Meteor drops Kingdra's sp atk and dragon pulse is piss weak. This means that even with a choice item and good prediction, Kingdra might barely get past Mega Venusaur, probably cant get past Amoongus (due to Regenerator) and cant get past Ferrothorn. Golduck can do all of this with a life orb and scores clean 2hkos, meaning that it wont have to keep switching out and back in to beat these roadblocks.
Now, you might be thinking "So Golduck fairs a little better against common stops to rain teams, but why not just use Tornadus-T or something else that can also reliably take them out?" To this I respond "If you sent in your Tornadus-T, your opponent would never send in Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, etc. However, if you sent in Golduck, your opponent probably would send in their Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, etc. and Golduck could easily take them out so another swift swimmer (such as Kingdra or Kabutops) could sweep." In this way, Golduck is a great lure for rain teams. It lures in annoying checks to rain and takes them out for other members or itself to sweep.
I wish I could stop talking about Golduck's movepool since this is taking me a while, but there are still more things it can do. Like many water types, Golduck get Ice Beam. Ice Beam obviously has great coverage with Golduck's water stab and can hit Lati@s and Dragonite hard, but it isnt necessary. Calm Mind is a decent option on Golduck as well. Golduck will often find chances to set up because its high power and speed forcing things out under rain. After one boost, Golduck can often clean teams up very well, especially if your opponent switched into their Ferrothorn or something that they think can take Golduck when in reality it cant while Golduck boosts. Neither Omastar nor Kingdra have access to Calm Mind. Finally, Golduck has the option to use Psyshock over Psychic, but only do this if your using choice specs on Golduck. With choice specs, Psyshock 2hkos assault vest Azumarill after stealth rock 100% of the time, which i think no other specially attacking Swift Swimmer can do. Also, Psyshock will net the necessary 2hkos against Amoongus and Mega Venusaur as long as you have choice specs, otherwise stick with Psychic.
If only Focus Punch and Swift Swim were compatible than Golduck could 2hko Chansey with a Rash nature.
Golduck @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Calm Mind
- Ice Beam / Calm Mind
For those too lazy to read all that was above, I will quickly explain the moveset. Psychic 2hkoes Mega Venusaur and Amoongus, Focus Blast 2hkos Ferrothorn, and Ice Beam has good coverage with water. Calm Mind is an option over Ice Beam and Focus Blast to attempt a sweep. Set up in something that Golduck can easily force out under rain with its high speed and power. Also, if youre using a Magnezone for Ferrothorn (or hate focus blast's accuracy) use calm mind over focus blast. Life Orb is almost always the superior choice over choice specs, howeverif youre a prediction godwith choice specs Psyshock 2hkos Assault Vest Azumarill 100% of the time after stealth rock and the extra power from choice specs still allows Golduck to 2hko Mega Venusaur and Amoongus. Hydro Pump and Surf come down to personal preference. Never use scald because the point of scald is to burn checks and counters like Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, Ferrothorn, and the Lati@s, which Golduck beats anyways due to its coverage moves.
If Seismitoad deserves D for being immune to Thunder Wave, than Golduck deserves D as well.
The problem I have with Golduck is that it is just a mediocre Swift Swimmer with an ability to handle Mega Venusaur, but it fails to even OHKO Venusaur at +1 without Stealth Rock support, whereas Venusaur can OHKO back with Giga Drain. Also, Golduck is ridiculously Talonflame weak and takes at least 86% from a Banded Brave Bird.
Also,
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 218-257 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 HP / 240 SpD Azu is mediocre and cannot reliably handle Excadrill and Zard X
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Greninja should move back to A+. For starters, priority in OU is pretty abundant, and even though greninja resists all but Mach punch, it's still frail and has to rely on changing types to take a hit or two, even then it still takes a good amount of damage. It's ability is great for offense, but it still needs a life orb to do respectable damage, which wears it down even more. It's pretty much checked by most of the common scarfers in the tier, which if you need greninja alive, you give your opponent momentum. The spikes set mentioned does seem nice, but with a plethora of defoggers and spinners, it's just not as easy to spike stack anymore. Greninja has to come in on a wall, or a pokemon it has a good matchup against. Even if the opponent switches out, you can just switch to a check while it uses spikes. Also running spikes limits Greninja to a coverage move, hydro is a must, then you need ice beam for the latis and the dragon types, while dark pulse is for Slowbro, but then ferrothorn can kill it with gyro ball, or Keldeo can come in if they don't have grass knot. It has a bit of 4mss when running spikes. Greninja is a fantastic pokemon, it just isn't meta game defining and top tier threat people say it is.
Golduck can get around Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Amoongus, not just Mega Venusaur. And it isnt crap outside of getting rid of these three either like Poliwrath.
The calc for Ludicolo and Assault Vest Azumarill for the standard AV set looks like this:
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 172-203 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
But i agree that running more hp on Assault Vest Azumarill is usually better
Anyways, Ludicolo can't get past Mega Venusaur or Amoongus and struggles more against Ferrothorn due to it's slightly lower sp atk. Also, any scarfer with a positive nature base 96 speed or more will outspeed a modest ludicolo under the rain however insignificant this may be.
I'd say its worth mentioning that metagross can also use pursuit to really beat down lati@s, especially cuz ttar has to fear a random hp fighting while metagross isn't even scared of hp fire while holding av.
As far as lati@s to S rank goes, I'm pretty against it.
I will admit that it provides very valuable support, hits super hard, and checks a ton of shit which is super helpful for offense. 110 base speed is beautiful and its coverage is solid and it keeps its switch-ins on their toes for the most part.
What I don't like about it is how easy it is to handle.
Ok maybe this is just me but whenever I'm building a defensive team lati@s is one of the last pokemon i'm worried about. I'm not really too worried about it when I'm using offense either.
Let's take an example. I'm building around subCM keldeo cuz its a rly nice and underrated set. I'm obviously worried about lati@s. I slap on a scarftar. Done.
Why is it that easy to literally remove an S rank mon from play entirely? That should not be possible whatsoever. I, or anybody, should not be able to more or less slap on a single mon and be able to counter and trap an S rank mon in every which single way.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that lati@s are way too easy to prepare for. It's not difficult at all to revenge kill or wall them in both offense and stall, with pokemon like heatran, scizor, mandibuzz, tyranitar, jirachi, cresselia, chansey, ferrothorn, mega gardevoir, bisharp, clefable, for walling, and there are plenty others as well. As far as revenge killing goes I'm sure I don't need to list the ridiculous amount of pokemon that can do that. Sure, you have to scout the third moveslot sometimes, but that's not too difficult, and they're usually weak attacks that are easy to switch into otherwise.
tl; dr its too easy to prepare for in any kind of playstyle, keep at A+
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Well, since nobody seems to have enough information to argue Meloetta on either side, I guess I'll start.
Pros:
+Versatile
Meloetta can viably run AV, SubCM, CM, LO, Specs, and Wall/Stallbreaker sets, or if you're feeling adventurous/innovative, Mixed Relic or Scarf. The wall/stallbreaker sets, while 100% outclassed by M-Gard, it does it well enough to be a viable alternative if you already have your mega slot taken up.
+Good defensive typing
The only weaknesses Meloetta has are Dark and Bug, the latter only really showing up in the form of U-Turn.
+Bulky
100/77/128 bulk, while not wall standards, is up there, and with an AV can boost the special defense to levels rivaling practically all special walls bar the pink blobs.
+Good Coverage
Hyper Voice, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Psyshock/Psychic, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, and Energy Ball gives Meloetta impressive coverage options. She also gets Signal Beam, but who uses that lol
+Checks several top-tier pokemon
Cons:
-Gets wrecked by Knock Off
It doesn't help that one of the most common moves in the tier cripples her.
-U-Turn is everywhere
Not only is it super-effective, it hits her lower Physical bulk, giving the opposing team more momentum than normal.
-Can get Pursuit trapped
If opposing Dark-types get a free switch-in, or if Focus Blast missed, Meloetta is effectively taken out of the game. Pursuit-trappers are also more common, with the rise of psychic-types, namely Latios.
-Physical Defense can be lackluster
100/77,while decent, can seem to be just a bit too low in many situations.
-No reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, or in the case of Mixed Relic, Drain Punch
This makes Meloetta easily worn down, and suspectible to status.
-relies on Focus Blast to check many of the pokemon it does
It's never good if you rely on a 70% accuracy move.
Conclusion:
If I wasn't so tired, I might have been able to elaborate a bit more, but I think I did a pretty good introduction. Now for my official nomination:
: Unranked ---> D/C-
Pros:
+Versatile
Meloetta can viably run AV, SubCM, CM, LO, Specs, and Wall/Stallbreaker sets, or if you're feeling adventurous/innovative, Mixed Relic or Scarf. The wall/stallbreaker sets, while 100% outclassed by M-Gard, it does it well enough to be a viable alternative if you already have your mega slot taken up.
+Good defensive typing
The only weaknesses Meloetta has are Dark and Bug, the latter only really showing up in the form of U-Turn.
+Bulky
100/77/128 bulk, while not wall standards, is up there, and with an AV can boost the special defense to levels rivaling practically all special walls bar the pink blobs.
+Good Coverage
Hyper Voice, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Psyshock/Psychic, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, and Energy Ball gives Meloetta impressive coverage options. She also gets Signal Beam, but who uses that lol
+Checks several top-tier pokemon
U-Turn-less Greninja
Keldeo
Thundurus-I
Excadrill
Heatran
Heracross-Mega
Landorus
Latios
Latias
Venusaur-Mega
Ferrothorn
Gardevoir-Mega
Gengar (excuse me, not check... HARDEST COUNTER IN THE EXISTENCE OF POKEMON [besides prob ekiller])
Gliscor
Gyarados-Mega
Mamoswine
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Terrakion
Tyranitar (if either Support or Choice-locked into a non-dark move)
Alakazam-Mega
Diggersby
Hippowdon
Magnezone
Manectric-Mega
Politoed
Keldeo
Thundurus-I
Excadrill
Heatran
Heracross-Mega
Landorus
Latios
Latias
Venusaur-Mega
Ferrothorn
Gardevoir-Mega
Gengar (excuse me, not check... HARDEST COUNTER IN THE EXISTENCE OF POKEMON [besides prob ekiller])
Gliscor
Gyarados-Mega
Mamoswine
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Terrakion
Tyranitar (if either Support or Choice-locked into a non-dark move)
Alakazam-Mega
Diggersby
Hippowdon
Magnezone
Manectric-Mega
Politoed
Cons:
-Gets wrecked by Knock Off
It doesn't help that one of the most common moves in the tier cripples her.
-U-Turn is everywhere
Not only is it super-effective, it hits her lower Physical bulk, giving the opposing team more momentum than normal.
-Can get Pursuit trapped
If opposing Dark-types get a free switch-in, or if Focus Blast missed, Meloetta is effectively taken out of the game. Pursuit-trappers are also more common, with the rise of psychic-types, namely Latios.
-Physical Defense can be lackluster
100/77,while decent, can seem to be just a bit too low in many situations.
-No reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, or in the case of Mixed Relic, Drain Punch
This makes Meloetta easily worn down, and suspectible to status.
-relies on Focus Blast to check many of the pokemon it does
It's never good if you rely on a 70% accuracy move.
Conclusion:
If I wasn't so tired, I might have been able to elaborate a bit more, but I think I did a pretty good introduction. Now for my official nomination:
Ludicolo can get past Amoonguss, as Modest Ice Beam 2HKOs close to 100% of the time. Rain teams are not Politoed + 5 Swift Swim sweepers either, you could easily lure out Venusaur and Ferrothorn with something else that is not ridiculously mediocre and Talonflame weak.
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 229-270 (53 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
EDIT: To avoid double post
Meloetta is a good offensive check to some of these Pokemon, but cannot switch into most of them at all, such as Heracross, Keldeo, Thundurus (Knock Off), Landorus (Knock Off), Mamoswine, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Diggersby, etc.
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Input please.
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| A → A+ | 2-3 weeks ago, I can understand why it dropped, but now, the metagame has changed in which Garchomp shines. Skarmory has fell in usage drastically because it doesn't provide the momentum needed to stall teams and other reasons (i.e. passive), and all other Steel-types are destroyed by Earthquake or are 2HKOed like Mega Scizor. In our last stage of the metagame, balance teams have flourished meaning Garchomp has an easier time. In addition, it is arguably the best offensive Stealth Rock setter in the metagame. Clefable has dropped in usage and being able to instantly threaten the best Pokemon and Defog user in current XY, Latios, makes it even more useful. If Garchomp decides to stay in and Latios Defogs, Latios dies. It pressures Latios to Draco Meteor most times actually, and I have seen many instances where Latios comes in to threaten Garchomp, but Defogs while Garchomp KOs. The balance teams, Skarmory falling in usage, and the Latios factor is not the only reasons why it should move up. Being able to pull off multiple sets makes it a very good choice as well. The SR Lead set usually kills 1 PKMN while keeping Stealth Rock up or 2 PKMN without it (FLCL demonstrated this), while also surprising faster revenge killers like Greninja, Thundurus-I, and Keldeo for example. The Rocky Helmet set can drag/force massive amounts of damage to physical attackers especially Talonflame and U-turn users allowing things like Mega Scizor, which need prior damage on some 'mons, to sweep. The Choice Scarf set is not that great compared to Landorus-T, but lets not forget that its useful with Magnezone, and any Garchomp set is useful with Magnezone either way, so that's another pro. Garchomp also excels against Sand Offense because it is very threatening to the archetype. Finally, let us not forget how much more useful +2 Outrage when you take all these mentioned factors in to account.
I will only back Garchomp to A+ if the Life Orb ChainChomp set was doing enough work in OU to bring it up. Every other set I find to be a liability due to its inability to handle Landorus-T without locking yourself into Outrage.
That's why I said "check" - It beats them on a free switch-in, not a manual one. Otherwise, you're completely correct.
i'm not gonna post a brick wall of text but i feel adding ninja to s was kind of an impulsive decision, and one i can't say i agree with. if we based this only on how it fares against offense, then yeah, but well-built stall and balance teams don't really give a shit about ninja, as it becomes much easier to check once you have priority, bulk, and recovery on your side... mons like cm clef, chansey ofc (even the spikes set isn't a magic chansey-killer), ass vest azu, rotom-w, and resttalk gyara all handle it well. one mon that i use personally on some balance teams as a ninja check is SDef mega Garde, I mean look at dese calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Mega Gardevoir: 118-140 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
and ofc Gard OHKOs with hyper voice, no matter what. the set i've been dicking around with is will-o/hyper voice/wish/protect, and it probably needs tweaking but it's another reliable check we can add to the list.
none of this really means anything if the superiors happen to think how it fares against offense should be the primary deciding factor in ninja's placement, and if that's the ultimate deciding factor then w/e, but it still feels like a rather rushed decision imo
also move azu down pls
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Mega Gardevoir: 118-140 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
and ofc Gard OHKOs with hyper voice, no matter what. the set i've been dicking around with is will-o/hyper voice/wish/protect, and it probably needs tweaking but it's another reliable check we can add to the list.
none of this really means anything if the superiors happen to think how it fares against offense should be the primary deciding factor in ninja's placement, and if that's the ultimate deciding factor then w/e, but it still feels like a rather rushed decision imo
also move azu down pls
God no one has so much time kid.
CM. The reason why Golduck can reliably beat it is because of the spdef boost even after rocks.
Reality check :
Golduck threatens and cms
Venu comes in and Golduck does dmg venu does dmg and duck live
Venu dies
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Okay, so it does not OHKO, but taking 70-80% from Giga Drain is not ideal whatsoever, and once you take 70-80% (factoring in 10% from Life Orb), the opponent could easily sac something that does bad against rain to kill you from a second round of Life Orb damage.
The same happens if you don't use lo and the point of it is to lure threats in and punch holes for your other Mons so they can sweep.
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Continuing the Azumarill thing, Azumarill is in my view a Pokemon that truly restricts team building in a way very little Pokemon do or have done before getting the boot off OU. Have a problem with Lati@s? Just slap on a Bisharp/Tyranitar or bulky steel and you're good. Problem with Zard X? Fast StoneQuake solves that problem. Greninja? You pretty much have a check by default just by having any revenge killer. Now Azumarill. The only viable things reliably checking this guy are the grass-poisons, which have a hard time fitting in on anything that isn't stall/bulky offense. If you are making an offense/HO team, I'll bet you don't have one good check to Azumarill. The reason why Azumarill is so good is that vs. offense, it can switch in, take something out, and if it's at full/almost full health, it'll take something else out. That's my experience with this thing as it being a huge threat to offense. Greninja is much easier to handle because good priority or high speed solves your problem. Azu should stay in S, and I agree with Rosenfeldius when he says that Greninja to S is a decision made more on impulse rather than a big discussion from both sides.
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