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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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Expand what I quoted. lol Damn Shaymin-S flinched me. Ha ha.
I'm not sure why but I haven't seen anyone say anything about Mega Pinsir. Talonflame was banned because it made types like grass and fighting useless, is Pinsir not capable of the same thing? A good number of types have no counter for it but I'll focus on the type I have the most experience with, water. I've been hopelessly trying to find a reliable answer to it with water and honestly I'm convinced it doesn't exist.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 498-586 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 388-458 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This replay is a good example of what it's capable of: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-160914228
With the natural bulk to set up an SD on so many things, access to one of the most reliable spinners as a teammate in Forretress, and the power to not only break but OHKO some of the biggest walls in the tier, I say Pinsir is overpowered.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 498-586 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 388-458 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This replay is a good example of what it's capable of: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-160914228
With the natural bulk to set up an SD on so many things, access to one of the most reliable spinners as a teammate in Forretress, and the power to not only break but OHKO some of the biggest walls in the tier, I say Pinsir is overpowered.
What's wrong with your Rotom-W? Pinsir switches in on something, SDs while you switch to rotom-w, then rotom can take the ~60% from the return and either burn it or hit back with a tbolt
Like the replay shows you can't rely on will-o-wisp, and thunderbolt doesn't even OHKO it back: 4 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 222-264 (81.9 - 97.4%)
Pinsir's not been considered largely because it's not used that much. Bug has mega heracross and mega scizor to use, and generally does use one of these instead. They help more against bug's weaknesses than mega pinsir, which not only adds to the stealth rock weakness but also is best against grass, bug and fighting which aren't the big threats for bug teams. Moreover its stealth rock weakness is really its biggest downside, as any phazing after it's megavolved will leave it weak enough to be revenge killed by pretty much any priority.
That having been said, just because it isn't used much doesn't mean it doesn't need a ban (Mega gengar had relatively low usage in OU when gengarite was banned), and as we've seen with Talonflame Stealth Rock weakness isn't enough of a counter as bugs have plenty of defoggers.
Although a pinsirite ban wouldn't affect the metagame very much, I'm not opposed to a suspect test of it.
That having been said, just because it isn't used much doesn't mean it doesn't need a ban (Mega gengar had relatively low usage in OU when gengarite was banned), and as we've seen with Talonflame Stealth Rock weakness isn't enough of a counter as bugs have plenty of defoggers.
Although a pinsirite ban wouldn't affect the metagame very much, I'm not opposed to a suspect test of it.
I'm not sure what the usage stats are but I think Pinsir is definitely common enough to where a ban would affect the metagame (I've been swept by it countless times on the ladder). Also, I'm not sure any phazers are capable of getting a roar off in the face of a +2 Return, and even if they do it's above average speed and powerful Quick Attack make it difficult to revenge kill as well.
darkrai147 said:
While I agree that Pinsir is very strong against the types that you mention, the difference between it and Talonflame is that the types that it runs over do have some usable checks to it.
Fighting has access to Terrakion, who can take even a +2 Quick Attack and KO about 3 times over with Stone Edge. Cobalion can also do the same if you are really that scared of it and breloom's very popular sashed set can check it with Rock Tomb. Unlike the checks Bug and Grass had to Talonflame, these are all very commonly found on fighting teams and don't really require them overspecializing to try and beat it.
Bug is a little more difficult, Red Card Forretress with Sturdy is a one time stop to it, Bulky Volcarona variants can take a Quick Attack if it's already at +1, and then destroy it with Fire STAB. Galvantula has the combination of Thunder / Thunder Wave to either KO it or cripple it, and there's stuff like bulky Armaldo that can take a hit and reply with 4x effective STAB.
While this is obviously difficult to deal with, I believe it falls into the same category as Greninja vs Ground and Breloom vs Water, in that they are undoubtedly difficult matchups, but through good play can be won.
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Hmm, I hadn't considered how much difference the change from fire stab coverage to fighting coverage made. While grass is little better off:
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 354-418 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It makes a big difference against bug, and helps cobalion a little as well. While grass can't really revenge kill (outside of ice shard abomasnow maybe) the other two types certainly don't mind it as much as they did talonflame, and if it runs earthquake coverage (more common due to bug disliking rock, fire etc.) then it can't sweep anything much. One to be considered still, but I doubt it deserves a ban.
Lol rip me, I meant with sturdy, edited.
The difference between Pinsir and Greninja/Breloom is there are multiple types with no switch ins. Countless threats have been banned this gen based on the idea that they have no true counters. That being said, just in case it's decided having checks enough, it should be noted some of checks you mentioned are also capable of checking Talonflame and it was still banned. Terrakion, Forretress, and Armaldo all check the bird in the same way you describe they check Pinsir, meaning having checks doesn't make something less banworthy. It can still destroy entire teams of several types with little effort.
water doesn't have much problem with breloom if you are well prepared for it.
Oh dear... No I talk about the precious Klefki...
I have found Klefki Perfect on my Mono-Steel. I mean sure, it gets KO'd pretty often, but it is my best counter to bands, scarfs and such like Garchomp or Excadrill.
I use it as the ultimate troll with a "defensive" set that includes an attack, along with calm mind, anybody who has fought this knows how frustrating it is to never be able to hit it and keep it down below 45% HP.
Also... Talonflame... ugh, I used a Bulk up set with a life orb... it was bulky
I have found Klefki Perfect on my Mono-Steel. I mean sure, it gets KO'd pretty often, but it is my best counter to bands, scarfs and such like Garchomp or Excadrill.
I use it as the ultimate troll with a "defensive" set that includes an attack, along with calm mind, anybody who has fought this knows how frustrating it is to never be able to hit it and keep it down below 45% HP.
Also... Talonflame... ugh, I used a Bulk up set with a life orb... it was bulky
Hey guys, is the banlist completely up-to-date in post #393? Also, it kind of confused me because it said that Kyurem-W and Shaymin-S weren't removed from the OU banlist (they weren't in red text, at least), but I saw them under Type-Only bans.
didnt edit the hide tags part because it was meant to be an example. the ban list is from when i said it is, that is, when 'Global pokemon bans' begins. ill add in a massive header to make it more clearer. and for your benefit, here is the ban list:
Global Pokemon Bans:
Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Talonflame
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom
Global Item Bans:
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
Moves:
Double Team
Minimize
Swagger
Type-Only Bans:
Steel: Aegislash, Genesect
Water: Damp Rock
Dragon: Kyurem-W
Flying: Shaymin-S
Arceus
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Talonflame
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom
Global Item Bans:
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
Moves:
Double Team
Minimize
Swagger
Type-Only Bans:
Steel: Aegislash, Genesect
Water: Damp Rock
Dragon: Kyurem-W
Flying: Shaymin-S
Thanks!
alright this may took me longer than it should have, but i have finished gathering replays of me using Kyurem-White on Mono Ice. not all my replays will be of kyurem-W just completely walking through teams, because i am trying to show it is in Every game usage, to make the decision on it be easier to make, and have a better understanding of it, and so it doesn't appear as this fully Overpowered pokemon that just walks through the meta.
Kyurem Replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158177819 vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158231549 vs Psychic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158504020 vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-934580 vs Fire
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-164994963 vs Grass
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165004144 vs fighting...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165007684 vs Water
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165008245 vs Water
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165009524 vs Psychic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165349961 vs Normal
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165351614 vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165352779 vs Bug
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-170593032 Vs Steel (Kyurem-W For Mvp)
After laddering with Kyurem-W and seeing how it works fully (keep in mind that i was using a basic scarf set, not a specs set, because I was going for general usage and not going full on power with specs) and if it were up to me it doesn't deserve a ban (after weeks of it being released no one is complaining about it anyways) it could be beat on teams, since there is alot of special bulk pokes that could withstand it's attacks. on Grass, like any other grass team you have certain checks for it, you can use a Mach Punch Loom for it with a sash.
On Flying, You can Scarfed Salamence easily, Scarfed Staraptor, Cripple it with Togekiss with full sp.d Investment and T-Wave it. Keep In Mind you can't safely switch into an ice beam from him tho, so you're going to have to sack something like you do in any other typing with something that's a threat to it. you Can also use a Thundurus-I and t-wave cripple it.
In Monotype you'll always have something that's a threat to your team, being able to work around it is what makes you a better battler. not wanting an instant banning of it just because you can't deal with it, and neglecting on working on your team to work around it either.
Kyurem Replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158177819 vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158231549 vs Psychic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158504020 vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-934580 vs Fire
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-164994963 vs Grass
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165004144 vs fighting...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165007684 vs Water
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165008245 vs Water
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165009524 vs Psychic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165349961 vs Normal
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165351614 vs Flying
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165352779 vs Bug
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-170593032 Vs Steel (Kyurem-W For Mvp)
After laddering with Kyurem-W and seeing how it works fully (keep in mind that i was using a basic scarf set, not a specs set, because I was going for general usage and not going full on power with specs) and if it were up to me it doesn't deserve a ban (after weeks of it being released no one is complaining about it anyways) it could be beat on teams, since there is alot of special bulk pokes that could withstand it's attacks. on Grass, like any other grass team you have certain checks for it, you can use a Mach Punch Loom for it with a sash.
On Flying, You can Scarfed Salamence easily, Scarfed Staraptor, Cripple it with Togekiss with full sp.d Investment and T-Wave it. Keep In Mind you can't safely switch into an ice beam from him tho, so you're going to have to sack something like you do in any other typing with something that's a threat to it. you Can also use a Thundurus-I and t-wave cripple it.
In Monotype you'll always have something that's a threat to your team, being able to work around it is what makes you a better battler. not wanting an instant banning of it just because you can't deal with it, and neglecting on working on your team to work around it either.
Kyurem white is broken in essence as the most common types used (flying, steel, water) have no solid answer to it hence it is termed "op" now if one looks at the remaining 15 tyoes thhey will see there is a ton of counters/checks amongst those types so no it is not broken
Kyurem-W by itself is not unstoppable, but its team mates can provide just enough support to make it extremely hard to walk around for several types (grass, flying, ground, electric, poison, dragon and even steel) unless they carry obscure checks such as Eviolite Mantyke (which is show in one of the replays above).
With almost half the metagame having 0 counters and very few shaky checks for this thing, one has to wonder if it's worth improving mono-ice if this is the price to pay.
With almost half the metagame having 0 counters and very few shaky checks for this thing, one has to wonder if it's worth improving mono-ice if this is the price to pay.
I've already listed possible checks for it on flying.
Ground: Sand Rush Exca, Quagsire, Swampert, Scarfchomp
Electric: thundurus-I can cripple it, scarfed electivire (relying on speedtie but oh well), Protect Magnezone with SpD Investment to see if it's using earthpower or fusion flare, then make your move there,
Poison: Scarfed Drap, Scarfed Gengar, Sashed Nidoqueen, Tentacruel for ice beam, dragon pulse and fusion flare hits, You could test out assault vest Dragalge(however you spell it)
Dragon: Scarfmence, Scarfchomp, Scarfed Hydreigon, Sash Drud, Scarfed Latios (all these aren't uncommon)
Steel: Scizor the bane of ice types, Hazards Alone on steel teams cripple ice teams, Scarfed Jirachi isn't rare on steel, klefki for screens or to cripple with t-wave, Metagross with bullet punch could do decent damage, then revenge with someone else
The only check on flying is Mega Gyarados, nothing else switches in on ice beam. What you listed are revenge killers, please note the distinction as it makes a very big difference. I'd like to put a replay here, where in my opinion I outplayed my opponent, who I know quite well and found it relatively easy to work out what his next move would be, but still couldn't do anything about the Kyu-W despite building my team specifically to be able to beat it. If I counter-teamed a pokemon and outpredicted the opponent on a number of occasions, yet still couldn't beat the pokemon, something's wrong. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-165166563
As for ground: Exca's a check, though it's OHKO'd by fusion flare and can be OHKO'd by earth power. Moreover, with ice beam doing 70% there's no way it'll win unless sand's up, which is something of a large requirement given abomasnow will be fighting the weather. Quag and Swampert are 2HKO'd by ice beam and can't do anything in return, and Scarfchomp obviously dies on the way in although it revenges. The obvious one you missed was Gastrodon, which hard walls it. However, Gastrodon also hard walls Kyogre so the fact it hard walls Kyu-W doesn't stop it from being broken. Moving on.
Electric: Thundurus-I can para, but it can't switch in on ice beam (obviously) and is OHKO'd after paralysing, meaning that you have to sack something, bring in thundy, sack it while para-ing, then revenge kill. That's two pokes sacrificed just to give you a chance of beating this monster, and assuming it stays in to get paralysed in any case. Electivire is 2HKO'd by ice beam and OHKO'd by draco, while Cross Chop doesn't OHKO back. It can't even win 1v1 even if it wins the speed tie.
Poison: I used to run poison stall, and I enjoyed using it. Then Kyu-W and Skymin came along. I haven't used it for a month which is a real shame. But moving on:
Tentacruel kinda beats this... in terms of being 3HKO'd (assuming no Stealth Rock or prior damage of any form, which is hard to avoid given it being the rapid spinner and having no recovery) and it can Knock off back, making it much easier to deal with in future. That said, it's barely a counter. It still dies if it comes in on Kyu-W. It's like saying Sableye counters MMaw: Sure it can burn, but then it's still OHKO'd by play nuke. Anyway, Amoonguss (that great pokemon capable of beating both standard Xern and RestTalk Kyogre) is 2HKO'd by ice beam even running max SpD ass vest, and the only other thing not completely shredded by earth power is crobat which... let's just say it doesn't particularly like ice beam. Or draco meteor. Or fusion flare. Or a stiff breeze for that matter. Once again however, you listed a number of revenge killers, some of which are quite imaginative (I mean running sash on nidoqueen just so it can revenge? Being forced to revenge is bad enough, but running sash to do it as well?) And ass vest dragalg - no. Just no. It can live two ice beams, if it's extremely lucky, only for draco meteor to do a max. 80% and then it dies next turn. Grats on your pokes created for the single purpose of beating kyu-w which doesn't even succeed... Trust me, I enjoyed playing poison. It was fun. But while this monster is around, poison is dead. It struggled to compete in a metagame filled with psychic and steel as it was, but now there's no way it's competitively viable. This pokemon which makes one type supposedly better (though teams now are forced to build around a single poke) completely annihilates another type. It didn't work.
Moving on.
Dragon: Sure, they revenge kill. TBH I'm not gonna argue on this one, if you've ever seen a dragon vs. dragon game you'll know that's all they ever do. Just a small note would be that if you do happen to run a bulkier Kyu-W set, scarf latios' draco has only a 50% chance to OHKO, meaning it could take 2 pokemon out before your opponent can deal with it, due to not knowing what it's running. It does give Kyu-W an edge, given its versatility. And also, please don't mention sashes as counters because while revenge killing is all well and good when it comes to dragons, sashes aren't exactly the best for revenge killing. If your revenge killer for Kyu-W is sash drud and your opponent sets SR (which it's all too easy to do), gg.
Steel: Now here's the funny thing. It was decided that ice should be buffed when it came up in conversation that +2 Mega Scizor simply destroys ice. The funny bit? Ice now has an absolute monster available to it, and yet it still dies to +2 Mega Scizor. Between easy hazards, decent revenge killers and the occasional annoyance like skarm stopping fusion flare and forcing Kyu-W to switch, steel easily beats ice like it's always done. And moreover, it's simple enough to get Mega Scizor to +2 Whether or not Kyu-W exists. Sure, a good ice player can beat a bad steel player now that Kyu-W's there, but at a high level of play the steel player will still beat the ice player whoever's better.
Anyway, that's enough ranting from me for now. I've been planning to make a post for a few weeks, but my last draft got accidentally deleted so it may be a few days yet. But expect a decent-length post with a number of never-before-seen arguments, which will blow your mind and get Kyu-W banned. Hopefully.
There is a flaw in this argument. Any self-respecting mono-ice team has ways around Scizor, especially SD variants, since it's by far the most threatening opponent found in those teams.
Sash+Endeavor Mamoswine and Froslass can stop it early in the match, Avalugg can phaze it if it runs Roar (though it's taking massive damage from BP and it has 4MSS issues) and, most importantly, Rotom-F can set up a Reflect before burning it with WoW or outright KO it with HP Fire.
I realize the first three aren't solid checks, but Scizor isn't an auto-win against mono-ice by any means.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough, but I was talking about if stealth rock was up (the situation was brought up in this thread a few pages back). At this point, none of these pokemon are capable of even revenge killing, and honestly it's extremely easy for steel to set up rocks against ice (sacrificing a pokemon to set rocks is fine if scizor can then sweep).
You're missing the point DoW. In my first point I clearly stated sacking certain pokes in your matches to overcome a threat is something you learn to do. Revenge killing is what I'm going for, like honestly never have I experienced problems against kyurem-W. Like even running grass against ice, have I had much problems. I worked around beating kyurem-w lol
Flying vs ice has been problematic too but I'm still doing just fine.
And if dragalge can take a hit and return one, then that leaves it open for being revenged. Sash nidoqueen isn't uncommon either.
Running certain pokes to beat another thing isn't out of the ordinary either, like if you know the typing or team has a major weakness to a poke. Then why are you neglecting on trying not to beat it?
Like I used it myself and found it to be completely overrated. I vs it myself and I do perfectly fine against it. Like I'm stating my opinion here with all bias aside. I know you're a flying user, maybe you should try doing such also if you do want it banned for flying sakes.
Flying vs ice has been problematic too but I'm still doing just fine.
And if dragalge can take a hit and return one, then that leaves it open for being revenged. Sash nidoqueen isn't uncommon either.
Running certain pokes to beat another thing isn't out of the ordinary either, like if you know the typing or team has a major weakness to a poke. Then why are you neglecting on trying not to beat it?
Like I used it myself and found it to be completely overrated. I vs it myself and I do perfectly fine against it. Like I'm stating my opinion here with all bias aside. I know you're a flying user, maybe you should try doing such also if you do want it banned for flying sakes.
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