-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
:I
As for Magnezone I'm not exactly sure of. I can see a case for it moving up considering it has pretty solid offensive and defensive synergy with a bunch of stuff but I feel as though the meta is getting more prepared for it, in terms of team builds so to speak. I agree with Bisharp rising but most stuff has already been mentioned for its raise. Would like to point out SR Bisharp functions in a similar way to SR Lando-I where it forces switches and as such gets free rocks generally. Twave Bisharp is kind of hilarious too while Taunt Bisharp screws over defensive builds and granted these aren't some ground breaking sets but thought it might be considered in terms of viability cause Bisharp isn't exactly a one trick pony that people make it out to be.
The other stuff I have no real opinion on either due to lack of knowledge from practical use or simply because I believe they should maintain that rank.
Last edited:
Oh sorry forgot about it. It was added in D rank for its Assault Vest set, which checks a lot of Pokemon, such as Mew, Thundurus, Greninja, Gengar, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Slowbro, and has good matchups against many more, while not being easy at all to wall, and being a good status absorber. It's usually a one time check to those Pokemon though, so you have to put it on offensive teams, and it needs a lot of prediction to pay off, but that's why it's in D rank.
The only wall passive enough to let Greninja set up more than 1 layer of spikes is Chansey. Running Spikes Greninja heavily limits the Pokemon's effectiveness vs. anything other than full stall and lets you be walled by quite a number of Pokemon. As for Latios, yes it can beat Pursuit users but this means it has to run HP Fighting which means it gets walled by so much stuff like Greninja. Basically I'm seeing an Azumarill situation where depending on how you run the Pokemon, you are effective vs. different things, so Spikes/HP fighting shouldn't be reasons to move these pokes up (not that these were the reasons that you guys moved them up).
Greninja needs only 1 layers of Spikes to turn defensive answers such as Clefable and Chansey into liabilities. As for Latios, Draco Meteor + Psyshock + Hidden Power Fighting is pretty great coverage, or you can also go with Draco Meteor + Hidden Power Fire + Surf, which covers most stuff except from Azumarill (HP Fire OHKOes Bisharp and Surf 2HKOes Tyranitar).
Hi, can we do all of us a big favor and restart below B- rank from scratch? There are so many glaring flaws, few actual standards, and quite frankly a bunch of terrible Pokemon that populate these ranks. For example, out of D Rank, Blissey, Cobalion, Cofagrigus, Tentacruel, and _maybe_ Seismi/Zygarde are the only viable things. I really hope I don't have to explain why these other things are terrible, the fact that Assault Vest Heracross gained a rank by itself is ridiculous. Many Pokemon are questionably ranked, and I have heard many significant issues from people with these ranks. Restarting the ranks in that range from scratch is optimal to preserve the legitimacy of them and, moreover, to represent the metagame accurately for newer players.
Hippowdon: A- ---> B+
To be perfectly honest, I haven't used or seen this 'mon enough to really make a great argument, but here's what I can gather: with 108/118/72 defensive stats, it's a monster of a physical wall. The main problem with Hippowdon is its ability, which can hurt its teammates. However, its Attack stat of 112, reliable recovery with Slack Off, and Toxic stall capabilities more than outweigh this problem (which is void when using Sand Offense); I do not agree with this proposition.
Tyranitar: A ---> A-
I can see this going either way. The special set has actually worked quite well for me in the past, and Scarf Tyranitar is amazing for Pursuit-trapping and revenge-killing. The problem with Tyranitar is that it can usually be shut down by WoW or by a well-placed FocusMiss Blast. In addition, several common Pokémon check/counter the living ass out of it (e.g., Keldeo, Azumaril, Charizard-Y, Bisharp). The main advantages it has that I can see are its versatility and offensive capabilities. However, I believe it to be outclassed by Meganitar, and with the bannings of Megawile and Aegislash, the special set is no longer as viable as it used to be, making it harder to bluff which set is being used and easier to get crippled by WoW. I personally agree that it should be moved down.
Bisharp: A ---> A+
This needs to happen. Bisharp's Defiant allows it to be sent in early on Lando-T leads and get a quick one to three kills with little drawback. Alternatively, one can send it in on a Chansey, a Latios, or an Azumaril that has been locked into something that Bisharp does not fear and set up a Swords Dance for what can become a clean sweep if played correctly. An Attack stat of 125 is nothing to gargle your own semen at. This thing can force a lot of switches and sweep when the conditions are right.
The matter of checking Defog users has been brought up before. Getting what is essentially a free SD on switch-in is fantastic, and this can be done with Sticky Web as well (although it then suffers from having to rely primarily on Sucker Punch to do its job, which can be easily predicted around). I support the decision to move Bisharp up to A+.
Gothitelle: B- ---> C+
Meh. It's a fine Trick user, and when properly executed, its strategy can ruin half a team or more. Unfortunately, it is lacking when it comes to stats, and, unless carrying Specs, doesn't work well enough to really do the job of a Shadow Tag user. However, there are few 'mons in the tier that can do what it does better (aside from Magnezone, which only affects Steel-types) making it a semi-viable 'mon, but only because nothing really outclasses it.
To be perfectly honest, I haven't used or seen this 'mon enough to really make a great argument, but here's what I can gather: with 108/118/72 defensive stats, it's a monster of a physical wall. The main problem with Hippowdon is its ability, which can hurt its teammates. However, its Attack stat of 112, reliable recovery with Slack Off, and Toxic stall capabilities more than outweigh this problem (which is void when using Sand Offense); I do not agree with this proposition.
Tyranitar: A ---> A-
I can see this going either way. The special set has actually worked quite well for me in the past, and Scarf Tyranitar is amazing for Pursuit-trapping and revenge-killing. The problem with Tyranitar is that it can usually be shut down by WoW or by a well-placed Focus
Bisharp: A ---> A+
This needs to happen. Bisharp's Defiant allows it to be sent in early on Lando-T leads and get a quick one to three kills with little drawback. Alternatively, one can send it in on a Chansey, a Latios, or an Azumaril that has been locked into something that Bisharp does not fear and set up a Swords Dance for what can become a clean sweep if played correctly. An Attack stat of 125 is nothing to gargle your own semen at. This thing can force a lot of switches and sweep when the conditions are right.
The matter of checking Defog users has been brought up before. Getting what is essentially a free SD on switch-in is fantastic, and this can be done with Sticky Web as well (although it then suffers from having to rely primarily on Sucker Punch to do its job, which can be easily predicted around). I support the decision to move Bisharp up to A+.
Gothitelle: B- ---> C+
Meh. It's a fine Trick user, and when properly executed, its strategy can ruin half a team or more. Unfortunately, it is lacking when it comes to stats, and, unless carrying Specs, doesn't work well enough to really do the job of a Shadow Tag user. However, there are few 'mons in the tier that can do what it does better (aside from Magnezone, which only affects Steel-types) making it a semi-viable 'mon, but only because nothing really outclasses it.
Last edited by a moderator:
You forgot Meloetta, Metagross, and Granbull there bud
to put it a bit more eloquently:
Meloetta is fine I guess, I don't really have experience using it or facing it.
Metagross is pretty much just a worse Jirachi. Sure, it gets Pursuit, but it is a worse pivot to these mons (Gard, Latis, etc) for offense because it doesn't have recovery with AV, it can't use Stealth Rock with AV, and it doesn't get access to U-turn. It has 'power' but this is far less useful than Jirachi's team supporting and pivoting utility for the team. Realistically, there is little, if any, reason to use Metagross over Jirachi on an OU team. This makes it undeserving of a rank, as Pokemon that have basically no reason to be used should not be ranked.
Granbull is outclassed by Doublade in the role of checking these Megas (Medicham and Heracross) because Doublade handles more and takes basically no damage from these to compensate for its reliance on RestTalk recovery, unlike Granbull which can't even check Heracross reliably the second time. They are in completely different leagues and Granbull's defensive niche is entirely eclipsed.
Last edited:
Most Clefable/teams in general aren't that worried about a layer of spikes, although it is annoying to Pokemon like Chansey. I just feel that you're much better off running a coverage move to potentially OHKO that Scizor or Ferrothorn than setting up a layer in case you go against stall, which isn't very common these days. Also by running the coverage you put for Latios you are even more walled by fairies but whatever, I feel like were discussing irrelevant things at this point. I'm just salty about Azumarill's drop that;s all...
Anyway I agree with Bisharp to A+ because it completely destroys Mega-Man/Lando-t cores, does well against pretty much anything that isn't fighting type, it just kills for days and needs a raise.
It also has access to Pursuit and is able to remove These mons from play. That in itself is a reason to justify use. Add on the fact that he also doesn't give a flying fuck about Mag. Yeah jirachi really doesn't either, but Metagross can actually OHKO with Earthquake. That's already two things over Jirachi. Yes, he can't pivot like Jirachi or provide a Wish Support, but Metagross still has enough of a niche in Earthquake and Pursuit to justify use on teams that need a glue.
Doublade doesn't have any offensive presence, or support moves such as Thunder Wave or Heal Bell, three things Granbull gets. Heal Bell is Heal Bell, and Granbull is also good at spreading paralysis. Additionally, Play Rough and even Earthquake actually hurt things, and Earthquake actually allows Granbull to get past Heatran, something no other fairy type can reliably do (emphasis on reliably - Focus Miss isn't reliable). Regardless, Granbull checks other things that Doublade can't such as physical ground types like Garchomp or Landorus T, things that just 2HKO the sword with EQ. This is easily a niche over Doublade that can warrant usage on select teams.
I'm not saying Granbull or. Metagross are amazing by any means, but D is fair for them. It's like like Mantine or fucking Whimsicott that are deadweight against 90% of the meta, lol.
I'd like to nominate Avalugg for B-.
Avalugg has incredible physical bulk (95/184), as well as two great moves in rapid spin and recover. These traits allow him to counter many threats in the meta as well as support a stall team. Some of the things he counters are Diggersby, Dragonite, Azumarill (although Banded Superpower will do 73% max), Garchomp (SpD spread avoids a 2HKO), LO Kyube (SpD spread avoids a 2HKO), Mega Pinsir, and more. While he is weak to Stealth Rocks, pairing him up with a defogger/spinner able to beat heatran (such as Starmie) is an effective way to remove SR nearly all the time. He easily switches in on Landorus-T, Mamoswine, and other common SR setters and spins on them. Rapid Spin, while able to be spinblocked, has the large advantage of having more PP than SR, unlike Defog, meaning SRers cannot pp stall your move.
Another thing about Avalugg is his concise moveslots. He always has Recover/Rapid Spin/Avalanche, leaving one slot open for utility. The main options are Roar and EQ (and sometimes toxic
Specially Defensive set (to counter fire blast chomp and LO kyube)
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Roar / Earthquake
- Avalanche
(Physically defensive just runs max defense)
Some calcs:
SpD Avalugg:
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 176-208 (44.7 - 52.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%)
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 151-179 (38.4 - 45.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 142-169 (36.1 - 43%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 121-142 (30.7 - 36.1%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 154-182 (39.1 - 46.3%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 84-100 (21.3 - 25.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%)
And because some people hate fairies:
52 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%)
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 151-179 (38.4 - 45.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 142-169 (36.1 - 43%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 121-142 (30.7 - 36.1%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 154-182 (39.1 - 46.3%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 84-100 (21.3 - 25.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%)
And because some people hate fairies:
52 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%)
PD Avalugg:
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 76-90 (19.3 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35.1 - 41.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 130-153 (33 - 38.9%)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 76-90 (19.3 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35.1 - 41.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 130-153 (33 - 38.9%)
Slow down there bud. Start at D and work your way up. No way in hell Avalugg is B- material (or even D material tbh). TL;dr is a terrible ice typing and piss poor SpDef and a SR weakness.
I'd like to nominate Avalugg for B-.
Avalugg has incredible physical bulk (95/184), as well as two great moves in rapid spin and recover. These traits allow him to counter many threats in the meta as well as support a stall team. Some of the things he counters are Diggersby, Dragonite, Azumarill (although Banded Superpower will do 73% max), Garchomp (SpD spread avoids a 2HKO), LO Kyube (SpD spread avoids a 2HKO), Mega Pinsir, and more. While he is weak to Stealth Rocks, pairing him up with a defogger/spinner able to beat heatran (such as Starmie) is an effective way to remove SR nearly all the time. He easily switches in on Landorus-T, Mamoswine, and other common SR setters and spins on them. Rapid Spin, while able to be spinblocked, has the large advantage of having more PP than SR, unlike Defog, meaning SRers cannot pp stall your move.
Another thing about Avalugg is his concise moveslots. He always has Recover/Rapid Spin/Avalanche, leaving one slot open for utility. The main options are Roar and EQ (and sometimes toxicor sub to mess with doublade and ferro). EQ is a great way to hit Heatran and Magnezone on the switch, as well as letting you 6-0 Italian offense/bunny spam. Roar allows you to beat non-Taunt Mega Gyarados (Waterfall does a measly 25% with a max roll), switch out Mega Scizors (Bullet punch does around 37% max), and soft check Crawdaunt (although +2 Crabhammer will do a lot). Toxic lets you wear down pokemon and hit stuff on the switch in, as usual. Overall, Avalugg has a large niche in this metagame countering the extremely hard-hitting pokemon as well as giving your team support in the form of rapid spinning. He deserves to be at least in the same rank as pokemon like Zapdos and Sylveon.
Specially Defensive set (to counter fire blast chomp and LO kyube)
Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Roar / Earthquake
- Avalanche
(Physically defensive just runs max defense)
Some calcs:
SpD Avalugg:
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 176-208 (44.7 - 52.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%)
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 151-179 (38.4 - 45.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 142-169 (36.1 - 43%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 121-142 (30.7 - 36.1%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 154-182 (39.1 - 46.3%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 84-100 (21.3 - 25.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%)
And because some people hate fairies:
52 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%)
PD Avalugg:
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 76-90 (19.3 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35.1 - 41.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 130-153 (33 - 38.9%)
I invite you to read the calcs I posted that show what avalugg counters despite its weaknesses. (Azumarill, Diggersby, Pinsir, Garchomp, Dnite, Kyube, Landorus-T, etc)
I'll be honest Avalugg has a better niche than some of the stuff in D rank but let's be real here, you just used a bunch of mons that either have no business of staying in on Avalugg or are all physical mons trying to break an extremely defensive mon lol. Terrible logic with the calcs but I can sympathize with the idea of it possibly being ranked. B- is too high though but kind of proves why the lower rankings need to be fixed anyways.
Gastrodon for B-
Gastrodon is honestly an extremely underrated pokemon in this current meta. It has the ability to counter/check an extremely large number of pokemon in the meta. Some pokemon it counters are mega manectric, thundurus, magnezone, and tyranitar, while it is an amazing check to some pokemon such as landot, azumarill, mega char X, garchomp, keldeo, and can even beat latios/as at full health with recover bar energy ball. It also has the ability to check rain and sand, while not being a total dead weight against other playstyles. It can easily toxic a pokemon and stall it out with recover/scald.
This honestly deserves to be at least the same rank as quagsire, if not higher. It totally outclases other C+ pokemon in my opinion.
The point of using avalugg is to counter those mons that 'have no busines of staying in on avalugg'. Avalugg is meant to be used on a stall team to cover those threats as well as add rapid spin support to the team. It counters many large threats to stall, which is why I suggest it be ranked.
Lots of mons have comparable weaknesses, but make up for it with their presence in the current metagame. As silly as it sounds, more of an argument is needed to defuse Yuttt's "claim", because the mons that Avalugg "walls" are pretty significant in current OU.
Not supporting Avalugg for any rank at all; just putting that bit of information out in the open.
I like the idea of Avalugg in B-. It's like a physical Chansey, altho with shittier typing. B- seems about right too; it's at least as viable as Togekiss, Sylveon, Crawdaunt, Mega Ampharos, Chesnaught, and Zapdos. In fact, let's compare it to Zapdos. Both are SR weak hazard removers, both are chosen to wall certain threats. Both can wall Mega Pinsir (which was what originally put Zapdos in OU), but Avalugg can wall more things than just Mega Pinsir. At the very least, Avalugg should make C rank, where it performs its job better than pretty much that entire rank.
My issue with your calcs is that some of those threats 2HKO after SR damage. This can be an issue where Avalugg is your primary hazard remover with that set. Other than that, it does have its uses in certain situations. I just wouldn't try to cram hazard control on that set. It needs to avoid hazards as much as possible. Skarm does a much better job at hazard control from a stall perspective.
I'd like to nominate Avalugg for B-.
Avalugg has incredible physical bulk (95/184), as well as two great moves in rapid spin and recover. These traits allow him to counter many threats in the meta as well as support a stall team. Some of the things he counters are Diggersby, Dragonite, Azumarill (although Banded Superpower will do 73% max), Garchomp (SpD spread avoids a 2HKO), LO Kyube (SpD spread avoids a 2HKO), Mega Pinsir, and more. While he is weak to Stealth Rocks, pairing him up with a defogger/spinner able to beat heatran (such as Starmie) is an effective way to remove SR nearly all the time. He easily switches in on Landorus-T, Mamoswine, and other common SR setters and spins on them. Rapid Spin, while able to be spinblocked, has the large advantage of having more PP than SR, unlike Defog, meaning SRers cannot pp stall your move.
Another thing about Avalugg is his concise moveslots. He always has Recover/Rapid Spin/Avalanche, leaving one slot open for utility. The main options are Roar and EQ (and sometimes toxicor sub to mess with doublade and ferro). EQ is a great way to hit Heatran and Magnezone on the switch, as well as letting you 6-0 Italian offense/bunny spam. Roar allows you to beat non-Taunt Mega Gyarados (Waterfall does a measly 25% with a max roll), switch out Mega Scizors (Bullet punch does around 37% max), and soft check Crawdaunt (although +2 Crabhammer will do a lot). Toxic lets you wear down pokemon and hit stuff on the switch in, as usual. Overall, Avalugg has a large niche in this metagame countering the extremely hard-hitting pokemon as well as giving your team support in the form of rapid spinning. He deserves to be at least in the same rank as pokemon like Zapdos and Sylveon.
Specially Defensive set (to counter fire blast chomp and LO kyube)
Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Roar / Earthquake
- Avalanche
(Physically defensive just runs max defense)
Some calcs:
SpD Avalugg:
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 176-208 (44.7 - 52.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Avalugg: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%)
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 151-179 (38.4 - 45.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 142-169 (36.1 - 43%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 121-142 (30.7 - 36.1%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 154-182 (39.1 - 46.3%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 84-100 (21.3 - 25.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%)
And because some people hate fairies:
52 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 127-151 (32.3 - 38.4%)
PD Avalugg:
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 76-90 (19.3 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 179-213 (45.5 - 54.1%)
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 138-164 (35.1 - 41.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 130-153 (33 - 38.9%)
Alright then I guess I'll go into some more detail.
First off the Ice typing. He has no useful reistances to bolster his good physical defense. It also does nothing to patch up his pitiful special defense (252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - anything else is a 2HKO). It leaves him weak to common types such as rock, fire, fighting, and steel, none of which he can actually handle. Additionally, it gives him a weakness to Stealth Rock, severely limiting his switch in opportunities as well as negating his arguably most useful ability, Sturdy. As stated above, many 3HKOes are turned into 2HKOes after rocks.
Secondly, he is completely and utterly set up bait for just about any set up sweeper, and has no definitive niche in OU. Hes a terrible spinner due to his vulnerability to all forms of hazards, and the fact that many setters such as Terrakion or Heatran can easily take him out. As for being set up bait, what does he have for Scizor? Suicune? Manaphy? Bisharp? etc. Sure he may have EQ, but thats not doing anything to anything, really. He also takes special hits like a wet paper bag. I guess Mirror Coat makes up for this, but lol...
I mean, do I really need to go on without stating even more stuff peopel have realized since like month 2 of XY OU?
That is a good point, and Avalugg's biggest shortcoming. Avalugg is able to switch in and spin on nearly all SR setters in OU, but cannot do so for Heatran. For best results with Avalugg, you should try to pair it up with a defogger able to beat heatran. Luckily, not doing so will only slightly hinder Avalugg if the opponent is using heatran with one of the extremely hard hitting mons avalugg counters. For example, non-LO diggersby and even LO garchomp will not 2HKO after rocks.
Alright then I guess I'll go into some more detail.
First off the Ice typing. He has no useful reistances to bolster his good physical defense. It also does nothing to patch up his pitiful special defense (252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - anything else is a 2HKO). It leaves him weak to common types such as rock, fire, fighting, and steel, none of which he can actually handle. Additionally, it gives him a weakness to Stealth Rock, severely limiting his switch in opportunities as well as negating his arguably most useful ability, Sturdy. As stated above, many 3HKOes are turned into 2HKOes after rocks.
Secondly, he is completely and utterly set up bait for just about any set up sweeper, and has no definitive niche in OU. Hes a terrible spinner due to his vulnerability to all forms of hazards, and the fact that many setters such as Terrakion or Heatran can easily take him out. As for being set up bait, what does he have for Scizor? Suicune? Manaphy? Bisharp? etc. Sure he may have EQ, but thats not doing anything to anything, really. He also takes special hits like a wet paper bag. I guess Mirror Coat makes up for this, but lol...
I mean, do I really need to go on without stating even more stuff peopel have realized since like month 2 of XY OU?
First of all, his ice typing does suck (even though it lets him counter kyurem-b), but his massive physical bulk makes up for this. He in fact can handle many rock and steel and fighting moves, I shall reiterate some of the calcs I posted earlier.
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 64+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 152-180 (38.6 - 45.8%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 143-172 (36.3 - 43.7%)
Avalugg can run roar for some of the threats (and eq does 60% min to bisharp), but for the most part on a well built stall team (which is where avalugg is meant to be run), you should have counters to these threats, meaning you should be able to switch in on them and win.
Also, skarmory lacks the huge physical bulk avalugg has, defog over rapid spin means you have less pp than SR, and also fears knock off + magnezone and is forced to run shed shell. But tbh, there is a reason skarm is ranked high than avalugg, and I am not saying avalugg completely outclasses skarmory.
edit: Terrakion does beat avalugg, but not easily for max defense:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 200-236 (50.8 - 60%)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
unless people run LO SR .-.
Last edited:
first off, half of those moves arent even STAB moves and half shouldnt try to stay in on Avalugg.
second off, why does that calc have Mold Breaker in it? Scarf Adamant is shit and Mold Breaker Air Balloon is shit. Its not even worthy of an analysis.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Youd be looking at something like that. Also,
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 244-288 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering Band is the only Azu set that actually runs Superpower, you have yourself a dead avalugg if he switches in. otherwise you get a free switch into the multitude of set up sweepers that can set up in his face, which was one of my previous points that you neglected. What move is he giving up for roar? spin / avalanche / recover / eq is really his only remote way of doing anything. roar doesnt get rid of the fact that later in the match, your physcal wall not named skarm loses ot offensive SD (indert mon here) unlike Skarm. Seriously though, why is this even being discussed? Avalugg has no niche in OU. Otherwise he wouldnt be in PU, lol.
re: skarm. PP on hazard removal moves dont mean a fucking thing. if you have to defog 24 times in a match then youre doing something wrong and should just quit the game right then and there. second off, SKarm also has a good steel/flying typing which more than makes up for a few more hp and defense points. hes taking every hit youve calced so far about 10% better than Avalugg, while also not falling to special hits in one blow and providing defensive synergy to a team, something Avalugg wishes his fat ass could do. And there no way in hell avalugg outclasses Skarm in any way.
I mean seriously, why are we even discussing this? Avalugg has no niche or reason to be used in OU for serious reasons and should not be ranked
Spikes isn't turning Clef into a liability, because, yknow, Magic Guard.
Sorry about the mold breaker, it was on the calc and I found no reason to change it.
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Avalugg: 170-204 (43.2 - 51.9%) if you want a STAB SE move.
I think that you are focusing too much on what beats avalugg rather than on what it walls. It is not meant to be a general bulky mon (like mew), it is used to counter specific threats in the metagame, many of which I have listed multiple times.
You may find yourself losing a stall battle because you ran out of defog PP before they ran out or SR pp, although this will not matter versus offense.
As to what avalugg does over skarmory, it counters mons such as fire blast garchomp and Kyurem-b, actually has things to do on a switch unlike skarm who is forced to run counter, isn't forced to run shed shell for fear of magnezone (and doesn't lose to knock off + magnezone), and fares better against things such as crawdaunt (and idk if anyone runs wild charge diggersby). I think this is enough of a niche to give it a B- rank, where 'mons such as Zapdos (who's only niche is defog+pinsir+landorus-i) reside.
- Status