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Allowing NFEs in UU

The Pokemon I listed are the ones that I feel deserve a shot at consideration for UU / NU status.
 
Obi said:
Duskull gets Levitate over Dusknoir and Dusclops. Onix has signficantly more Speed than Steelix, trades a few weaknesses / resistances, and has STAB Rock.

I cannot think of any Pokemon that aren't watered-down versions of their fully evolved counterparts, and I see no reason for the others to be allowed in UU.
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Ok, but technically then since Surskit and Nincada are different types from their evolutions with completely different stats/movepools/abilities, then shouldn't they count as well?

Also, I'm not so sure about Onix...the 160 base defense is bummed by the 35 base HP and it can't do anything with the STAB Rock with 45 base Attack. It is faster though, I'll admit that.
 
What about Electabuzz and Magmar? They're faster than their evolved forms. Is that a "difference"? Further, Electabuzz tends to play on the special side as opposed to its evolved form.

What I am trying to argue is that most "OU-lite" Pokemon aren't going to make their presence felt in UU, but "BL-lite" Pokemon will; or the Pokemon will play differently. In OU, Gliscor is a wall or BPer. In UU, Gligar is a sweeper (since it doesn't have to contend with Garchomp for the position).

I am just saying that, for the most part, it doesn't matter which tier NFEs are considered - the vast majority will never see play. It is the ones that are UU-viable that should be driving this conversation. For the most part, these NFEs come from BLs, who have little impact on the OU metagame. If you play UU to escape Tyranitar and Salamence, allowing NFEs in UU won't be an issue for you. If you play UU to escape Gliscor... well, whatever.
 
I could see allowing Onix in UU or possibly NU, though, because it's at least somewhat different in an advantageous way from Steelix, but those last few I grouped together because I wasn't too sure about them.

Let's consider a few things about Surskit and Masquerain, first. If you multiply the HP and a Defense stat, you get what I call a "Defense Index" for that particular stat. This gives you their ability to take hits from that side of the spectrum.

HP * Def
No EVs Masquerain: 44,960
No EVs Surskit: 22,100

HP * SpDef
No EVs Masquerain: 56,200
No EVs Surskit: 30,940

Now, if you'll compare the numbers for the two Pokemon, you'll see that Masquerain takes physical hits more than twice as well as Surskit with offensive EVs. What this means is that a Rock attack will actually hurt Surskit more than Masquerain, despite Masquerain's 4x weakness. This means that, since there is no type that has a difference of 4x effectiveness between the two, Masquerain will take every physical hit imaginable better than Surskit.

Comparing their Special Defense, we see that Masquerain is about 9% less than twice Surskit's Special Defense Index. This means that Masquerain takes less than the difference added by a Calm nature more from attacks that Masquerain is twice as weak to (Fire, Water, Ice, and Rock special attacks).

Masquerain's Special Attack stat is higher enough than Surskit's that it can compensate for lack of STAB on Water moves. To my knowledge, Surskit doesn't learn any physical Water moves.

Nincada is probably in the same boat as Onix. Absolutely crappy, but has like 1 or 2 advantages so that it's not entirely outclassed.
 
No offense Obi, but I don't think I can quite agree with you on why NFEs shouldn't be allowed in UU. Personally I think that a lot of the same strategies that exist in OU are present in UU, just less effective because they're being used on inferior Pokemon. For instance Suicune would be used as a wall, and Blastoise is the UU counterpart even though it can do some interesting stuff on its own (Phazing, utility).

My mindset is that if something can be used effectively, it should be used, regardless of whether or not it has an evolution in a higher tier that serves the same purpose. And actually on that note, I don't think Pikachu should be allowed in UU. Because of the boost to both physical and special attack with the Light Ball, and Pikachu's fairly diverse movepool, it can hit a LOT of stuff really hard (too hard, IMO) and it also outspeeds a lot of what's already in UU. Maybe it should be placed in BL? Just my opinion though, I'd make a discussion about it but tier discussion is banned so...

shit I really digressed there. Sorry.

Anyways I think that as long as it can serve a purpose, a Pokemon should be allowed to be used. Just because they're different metagames shouldn't mean the strategies should be completely different even among NFEs and their evolved forms.
 
pikachu is too frail to do that much damage. not to mention the fact that it can't surf anymore kind of hurts it. granted it did get grass knot, but the fact that it got the extra attack boost does NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. so by that fact, as it was easily countered in adv, not many special defensive monsters have been upgraded in dp.

plus a tackle would kill it. (granted same argument can be made for deoxys, but thats besides the point)
 
How does the extra Attack boost do nothing? It can now Volt Tackle off its massive Attack (it has an Attack stat higher than its Special Attack stat), Focus Punch, and use a few other physical moves effectively. A mixed sweeper ensures that throwing something that has massive one defense but pathetic other defense won't stop Pikachu.

Now, I'm not saying that this necessarily makes it BL material, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Also, to clear up potential confusion, when MoP says
the fact that it can't surf anymore kind of hurts it.
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What he means is that Pikachu can still Surf, but it turns out all Surfing Pikachu are Hardy, which really puts a damper on Pikachu's ability to sweep.
 
Nincada is utterly outclassed by Wormadam Ground.

Lanturn and Dewgong both get Signal Beam, so if you needed something with Water STAB and a Bug attack you could go with either of those. Kabutops and Kingler get X-Scissor.

Onix is completely and utterly outclassed by Golem. The 20 Base Speed does not compensate for the massive HP and attack differences, and Golem takes hits better even with a lower Base defense. Onix is barely better offensively than Shuckle, of all things.

I'm all for NFE's in UU. What's the worst that could happen? We send 2, maybe 3 pokemon to BL? If people want to use ineffective pokemon, so be it. Smogon is primarily about competitive battling and therefore has a focus on OU battling, with some emphasis on Ubers.

What cheapens the UU metagame if we allow anything that isn't explicitly BL or above enter. Who really gives a rip is someone is using Shelgon or Metang?

As far as I'm concerned, UU should allow all NFE's except for a specific ban list, just like OU allows all pokemon to exist except for a specific list of Ubers + Wobbs.
 
How about we just make a list of all pokemon that...
A - Were Fully Evolved in Advanced and gained an evolution in DP and should as such be looked at again (From Dusclops to Yanma to Rhydon to Murkrow)
B - Seem to be too powerfull for UU on their own (Haunter, Chansey etc)
C - Deviate too much from their evolved forms (Pikachu, Vigoroth catagory)

For example, somebody called Murkrow trash. However, with Dark STAB to his physical repetoire AND higher speed as his evolved form, he might become too powerful for NU as a Choice Bander.

Ah, what the heck, I'll just make the lists. And I'll add my personal view.

Gained Evolutions:
Roselia - OK, Roselia got nothing new for DP. Can stay NU as a spiker of sorts.
Misdreavus - It's still an annoying PerishTrapper. Can hit stuff with her STAB now, but not too much. UU?
Murkrow - Like I put in the example, it might have become too good for NU.
Sneasel - Getting Dual STAB is kind on him. Has good potentional in UU. Still extremely frail.
Magneton - Do note that while it is inferior to Magnezone, it can outspeed Metagross (tho it is a tie in base speeds) and it still has monstrous Sp. ATK. Would be a terror in UU, BL seems more appropriate.
Lickytung - Still crap. Can stay in NU.
Tangela - Read above. New toys dont help it.
Rhydon - Yeah, we know about you pal. Go to BL and stay there.
Dusclops - ...
Electabuzz - Is too powerful for NU. UU status seems fitting as its where he came from.
Magmar - See above.
Togetic - It was kind of...crap in ADV, and stays like that in DP. NU status is to be debated though due to Serene Grace.
Gligar - The addition of Roost pushed him, IMHO, beyond UU status. Please stick him in DP. Just read the analysises on UU-ish pokes and see how often he pops up.
Yanma - Can stay in UU where he was.
Nosepass - Pschyeahright.
Piloswine - Aint gonna do much with his gained physical Ice STAB.

Too Powerful On Their Own:
Chansey
Haunter
Kadabra
Pre-Evo's from Base-600 group: They can be NU. Of these 4, only Pupitar can be somewhat scary. Maybe Gabite but even he doesn't seem to really cut it.
Hippopotas - We have Abomasnow in UU for weather changes anyway. Can't be THAT bad.
Cranidos - Eh, its too slow and frail to pose a real threat in UU. Can be NU and used for laughs in UU Trick Room.
Munchlax - He can sop up some special hits but can he dish it out? Doubt it.

Deviations:
Scyther - Should be tested in BL because with his movepool additions, he might become too powerful. Should be under debate though, his typing doesnt help.
Pikachu - Can stay in UU due to his frailty.
Porygon2 - We all know that he is too good for UU. Can even be in standards.
Duskull - Its a bitch to take down, but can be overcome. Don't see it as a threat.
Vigoroth - Its a cool pokey but in UU its overshadowed by stuff like Kangaskhan or Granbull. Too much competition.
Shuppet/Ralts/Rattata/Other LV1 tricks - We should really take a look at what they can potentionally cause. The Trick Room/D-Bond pokes of LV1 are dangerous, but I doubt that it'd warrant special note for them.
Trapinch/Diglett - They're too frail to pose a true threat. Can be NU. Must be watched out for though.
Clamperl - Put it in UU and be done with it. Will only see use on Trick Room teams.
Onix - Will be a fair wall in NU, but there's enough there that can take him down.
Caterpie - Can be a real menace in UU, should be BL.


Phew. If I missed out anything tell me.
 
Ah, forgot about Porygon2, significantly higher defenses and Trace make it distinct from PorygonZ imo.

As for stuff like Rattata, Raticate is almost certainly going to the NU tier, so that's where I would "put" Rattata, anyway.
 
Well, I included Rattata, Ralts and Shuppet for their specific LV1 sets. Ralts and Shuppet for their Focus Sash/Trick Room/Destiny Bond tricks, Rattata for its Endeavor thingymajingy...believe its called F.E.A.R. ?
 
Obi said:
How does the extra Attack boost do nothing? It can now Volt Tackle off its massive Attack (it has an Attack stat higher than its Special Attack stat), Focus Punch, and use a few other physical moves effectively. A mixed sweeper ensures that throwing something that has massive one defense but pathetic other defense won't stop Pikachu.

Now, I'm not saying that this necessarily makes it BL material, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.
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Yeah, you guys are right, perhaps I was overreacting a bit. I still think that because it outspeeds the majority of UU (and even if it doesn't, Quick Attack and switching are still options) and even though it will likely fall to a single attack it can do some major damage (especially by suiciding with Volt Tackle) before being taken out or switched. I'll stop the Pikachu discussion there though.

Overall I'm not sure what to contribute beyond what I've already said except that I see no reason why any Pokemon should be banned from a tier because it serves the same purpose as its fully evolved form in a higher tier. I mean, if it's the same strategy, and someone pulls out a Gabite on me I'll be sure to switch into a tankish-build Blastoise and Ice Beam it for the KO. If someone wants to take a risk, more power to them.
 
The way I'd do it is ban them all but the one's that get use now (Scyther, Porygon2...) and then wait until the tiers for fully evolved Pokemon are sorted out. Once that's done look at the other pokemon and see where they can fit in.

Putting NFE Pokemon into tiers that we don't really have sorted out doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
 
Phew. If I missed out anything tell me.

Piloswine. Everyone always seems to miss Piloswine, even thought they know its evolution eats Garchomp and Mence for breakfast in warstories.

Why does the Piloswine hate stay?

Oh, and please, please tell me you were joking about Onix being a Wall in NU (like Caterpie below). NU in advance was overrun by Sunnybeamers. Between them, Whiscash, and CB HP Grounds, Onix was (and will remain) worthless.
 
I'll put some of my opinions on your list.

Lou Cypher said:
How about we just make a list of all pokemon that...
A - Were Fully Evolved in Advanced and gained an evolution in DP and should as such be looked at again (From Dusclops to Yanma to Rhydon to Murkrow)
B - Seem to be too powerfull for UU on their own (Haunter, Chansey etc)
C - Deviate too much from their evolved forms (Pikachu, Vigoroth catagory)

For example, somebody called Murkrow trash. However, with Dark STAB to his physical repetoire AND higher speed as his evolved form, he might become too powerful for NU as a Choice Bander.

Ah, what the heck, I'll just make the lists. And I'll add my personal view.

Gained Evolutions:

Nosepass - Pschyeahright.

Well, it's not all that crappy, it can at least take Fighting and Ground attacks better than Probopass thanks to superior typing.

Too Powerful On Their Own:
Kadabra
Won't it die in an instant to a Sucker Punch though?
Pre-Evo's from Base-600 group: They can be NU. Of these 4, only Pupitar can be somewhat scary. Maybe Gabite but even he doesn't seem to really cut it.
Dragonair at least gets Dragon Dance, and Shelgon DOES have better defense than Salamence, but oh well.
Hippopotas - We have Abomasnow in UU for weather changes anyway. Can't be THAT bad.
No freakin way this thing is too powerful. :P
Munchlax - He can sop up some special hits but can he dish it out? Doubt it.
It does have 85 base attack eh. It will ALWAYS go first in a Trick Room, and it might even go before Shuckle because they have the same base speed.

Deviations:

Vigoroth - Its a cool pokey but in UU its overshadowed by stuff like Kangaskhan or Granbull. Too much competition.
It's not completely outclassed by either of them though. Unlike Kanga, it has a way of boosting its stats and setting up with Bulk Up. Granbull is more of a slow sweeper and even a supporting sweeper with Heal Bell. Vigoroth has much better speed.

Trapinch/Diglett - They're too frail to pose a true threat. Can be NU. Must be watched out for though.
Actually, in a Trick Room, Trapinch is even better than Dugtrio with much higher attack. It can also take hits better since it doesn't have to invest EVs in speed, so it can give some to its HP and Defenses while having Max Attack.
Onix - Will be a fair wall in NU, but there's enough there that can take him down.
It might be good if people start using Hippopotas in UU/NU.
Caterpie - Can be a real menace in UU, should be BL.
Yupp.

Phew. If I missed out anything tell me.
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Well, even though it's probably not very good, there's always Numel w/Simple as its ability for NU...Although Bibarel would probably outclass it as the other one with Simple, although it may have a chance if Bibarel gets put to UU instead. It does get Ancientpower for an ULTRA boost in all stats if it's really lucky...heh.
 
I don't see why NFE's shouldn't be in UU. I always considered UU to be for ANY poke not good enough for OU/Too good for NU. That includes NFE's.
 
Hey guys, we can discuss specific BLs later, that is really not the point. Which Pokemon belong in BL should be decided when we move on to developing UU. For now, I just want the concept to be approved or disapproved.
 
I think that, if allowed, trapinch with it's high attack and amyssal speed could be an ideal canidate for a trick room UU team. Sneasil, although just recently evolved, has deadly potential now that it actually has stab.

EDIT: I also was wondering, could mantyke be an okay Special wall in NU?
 
I added Piloswine. Also, I noted Onix just for its few physical options against any CB'ers that might run there.

@ Bologo
Nosepass still sucks though. Can't do anything. Kadabra would but not many pokes run it. Dragonair's DDancing still dont make him much of a threat and Shelgon will just sit there. Munchlax...needs to be tested. Vigoroth might have his own options but still won't surpass UU. Trap Room Trapinch can be nasty indeed, failed to note that.
 
As long as the NFE isn't overpowered in such enviorment, why not?

I'm all for having a bigger selection for my team.
 
I think the main problem with allowing NFEs into lower tiers is the risk that UU will just develop into a water-downed version of OU. Personally, I turn to UU when I have grown a little stale with OU.

Allowing the likes of Hippopotas means that many of the OU tactics will still be prevalent in UU and the difference between the two metagames will become slight. Weaker Pokemon, same style of play.

Lets say I become a little disillusioned with Hippowdon and Garchomp running riot everywhere, so I make a UU team and go into that environment for a while only to see Hippopotas and Gabite everywhere. Sure, the opponent is disadvantaging himself because Sandslash and Gligar or whatever would be a much more potent combination, but the principle remains. Do we really want UU to be a mini OU? Or do we want it to be a thriving metagame by itself?

In BL, when you're generally fighting slower things with less Special Defence, the difference between Kadabra/Alakazam and Haunter/Gengar is much smaller.

I think the list of permitted NFEs will need to be looked at carefully. Obvious things like Pikachu, Vigoroth, Scyther and Trapinch are cool but other things like Magneton need to be looked at. Sure, he's generally inferior but that little extra speed does give him something to work with, especially with all the 80 basers running around.

However, I am against the likes of Gabite, Shelgon, Dragonair or whatever for the reasons stated above.
 
I support the use of NFEs in UU. As long as everything that fucks up the UU metagame (chansey,dusclops etc) is properly categorized into BL, I think NFEs would improve the UU game.
 
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