Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[thelandlordsmm]

I have to agree with this. Mega Heracross has the power to punch holes in teams even when it's running jolly. The firepower that it can bring to the table is so overwhelming that if you can't find a safe switch into it (and it's not that hard. Fast or slow volt turn into something that doesn't like it and viola a forced switch), it will be able to break down defensive cores steadily. Granted it doesn't have the speed that MGallade got, but skill link is one other great niche that MHera has that we should take into factor. The ability to break subs and sashes consistently as well being able to power through defensive cores makes this mon a real big threat. Granted there are various risks involved in running this set, such as being vulnerable to acro Gliscor and other mons that are capable of outspeeding and revenging Mhera, the rewards of this is mon is plentiful. It also has a pretty decent bulk so that it can live a neutral hit and either power up with SD, hide with Sub or smash through with any of it's remaining 3 moves. Overall, this mon deserves to be in A+ because the risk in using it is relatively medium and it provides a fairly good reward when played to it's role.

Edit: to the person who said MHera uses 100% accurate moves, Rock blast and Pin Missile are both less than 100% accuracy T T

Actually, Pin Missile does have 100% accuracy. Rock Blast only has 90%. But your other points remain valid. I would argue that M-Heracross behind a Sub is more dangerous than one with just a Swords Dance (unless the opponent has M-Gardevoir), because if given the opportunity to set up a sub, it's almost a guarantee that something dies. A+ seems good to me.

 

[theV8man]

Well not really arguing but, Mega Mawile was like that exactly, except for Priority, anyway you can also run Substitute Heracross to break bird and psyquic mon on predict switch(Yeah most of mons are not staying if on Heracross) I think you´re absolutely correct if we are talking about the standard and most knowed and used set, but Heracross deserves its rank , In my oppinion it also makes stall really really bad on that Post Aegis era(As you have no way to switch on it and that is what stall is), And you forget that also Mega Heracross is bulk enough to tank even some super effective hits

You really cannot compare Mega Mawile to Mega Heracross at all. Mega Mawile had strong priority, unbelievable typing, and intimidate which let it do work against any team, pretty much no matter what. Mega Heracross is a very good Pokemon, but I fail to see how it can be in the same rank as Thundurus-I, Azumarill, and so on. It demolishes stall, sure, but against offense it can't do much more than function as a pretty good tank.

 

[Destiny Device]

Definitely supporting Mega Manectric for A.
Manectric is definitely one of the best Megas in OU. Having Intimidate, being extremely fast, having a relatively useful ability pre-mega in Lightningrod and having access to Fire-type coverage sets it apart from anything in the tier. Manectric is also excellent against Offense. Its main flaw is that is takes a Mega slot, but the only competition it actually faces in its role comes from Raikou, which is generally inferior and mostly used as a "poor man's Manectric that doesn't take a Mega slot" anyway.

Mega Heracross: while I got no opinion on it right now, it isn't as effective against Stall as it used to be at all, and that was its main quality. Stall teams found a plenty of ways to deal with Heracross now, be it Acrobatics Gliscor, Unaware Clefable, Doublade or even some Jirachi variants. And please don't compare it to Mega Mawile.

 

[Albacore]

Believe it or not I personally don't really care that much where Lanturn goes, both C and C- are fine for it. I guess the rise of Spikes Greninja is a big problem for it, but Magnezone is still very common from what I can tell (or maybe that's just ORAS) as is MMane so still holds a pretty valuable niche (also I would never run Lanturn without Hell Bell, the team support is just too good to pass up)

btw here's an okay Lanturn replay, not really that good but if anyone should have Lanturn replays it's me : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-170597512

I did end up losing since I decided to spin on Keldeo instead of Recovering like I should've which basically cost me the match, but I think this replay kinda demonstrates what Lanturn does best which is preventing Volt Switch from ever happening. The MManectric user was more more-or-less forced to double switch most of the time he sent it in fearing Lanturn coming in for free and even getting health back in the process. Since I was just testing Lanturn out at the time wasn't fully aware of what it did I didn't really abuse that fact a much as I should've (though I did take advantage of it a little bit keeping Talon in on MMane in a couple situations), but yeah that's basically what Lanturn does.

MHera definitely deserves A+, it's a really powerful wallbreaker that's also pretty good vs offense, at least, better than most wallbreakers in the tier thanks to its solid bulk (also anyone who thinks the the lack of speed matters much against offense is wrong : it really only matters vs bulkier teams where you have stuff like Mew and SpD XZard creeping it). I guess the slight drop in usage of sand makes it a bit less good but in return, Bisharp rose in usage and also threatens a lot of teams which is good for MHera because it's one of the best countermeasures to it. Oh, and unlike, say, MMedi and MGarde, none of its counters really fit that well on anything else than Stall, (Jirachi and MZor and Slowbro and Mew vs what, Unaware Clefable? Acroscor maybe?) so as a result it's much better vs balanced teams than most wallbreakers too (also the sub SD set is fantastic, please use it)

I can see why you'd kinda want Garchomp to drop because it doesn't really come off as being particularly great, but I feel like the combiantion of bulk, power, typing, speed, and setting rocks, despite none of these aspects being stellar, is just good enough to make it A+.

I've used Rhyperior a lot recently and although it is certainly good and kinda underrated, it has a very glaring flaw in that fact that it lacks reliable recovery. Due to its huge physical bulk it doesn't get worn down as much as other defensive Pokemon that share this trait, but the problem is still there. Also, Rhyperior pretty much needs cleric support since it's extremely vulnerable to Toxic and especially Burn which quite a few things it's supposed to counter (Talonflame, YZard, Victini) commonly carry . It's a great addition to a team but it needs a bit too much support for me to see it in B+.

I'm really not sure what Zapdos does, it's a mediocre defogger and it's too slow to be a proper birdspam check.
Quagsire I used to think was garbage post-Mawile but it has a niche over Slowbro in the fact that it completely cockblocks electric types so it's not as bad as I though it was but eh, it's still worse than Slowbro/Mola most of the time and i'm still not sure it should be as high as B-.
Zygarde is actually a bit underrated, it's decent on stall for countering Bisharp and Excadrill but it's still an inferior option to Hippowdon in most cases since it actually deals with Electric types worse, and obviously lacks reliable recovery, so idk. Could be an option over Hippowdon if you want a win condition for semistall stall or balance I guess, but reliable recovery>stat boosting on defensive teams generally.
I have no idea what the logic behind Blissey rising is since its niche over Chansey is less valuable now that Lando-I is less of a threat in general, and Chansey also got worse to boot.
Toxicroak is pretty underrated, I've seen it in action and it's definitely better than C.
Cobalion is also underrated, it has a solid niche and a nice set of tools (SR, Volt Switch) which sets it apart from its competitors, so C+ seems good

 

[Alfalfa]

To get some discussion going, here are the changes to the list that McMeghan proposed to me:

A-Rank
Mega Heracross A+ → A
Garchomp A+ → A ?? (really undecided about this one, I'll let you guys decide, I'm really undecided)
Mega Manectric A- → A

B-Rank
Kingdra B → B+ (or Kabutops down to B and then Omastar down to B-)
Rhyperior B → B+ (really incredible niche with good firepower for Offense)
Staraptor B → B-
Mega Ampharos B- → C (idk why you'd want to dedicace your mega slot to it tbh)
Quagsire B- → B
Sableye B- → C+/C
Zapdos B- → B

C-Rank
Conkeldurr C+ → B
Klefki C+ → B (spikes are reallllyyy good, and it's the best alternative for Offense beside Greninja)
Toxicroak C+ → C
Cobalion C → C+/B- (really amazing niche overall)
Froslass C- → C
Rotom-H C- → C/C+
Seismitoad C- → C+
Slowking C- → C
Lanturn: C → C-

D-Rank
Blissey D → C-
Zygarde D → C-

Seismitoad for C+ is overshooting its viability by a longshot. I am assuming you are talking about Water Absorb + Stealth Rock, because Swift Swim sets are complete ass due to how weak they are, regardless of their Electric immunity. Water Absorb + Stealth Rock is still just a niche, and it is still really weak. I would like to counter an argument I heard Alexwolf say like a week or two ago on this:

Seismitoad: D ---> C-

Seismitoad to C- because it's a decent SR setter that counters most Electric-types and does very well against rain teams. Yeah, Gastrodon can do this too, but Seismitoad is way faster and has Knock Off, making it a better choice for offensive teams.

Seismitoad is horribly weak, and is highly dependent on Life Orb to inflict damage. 95 / 85 offenses are mediocre; you could say that about Talonflame, but at least Talonflame can afford to be locked into a Choice item, and also has Swords Dance. Seismitoad is absolute ass outside of beating Electrics. It beats Kabutops and Omastar for sure, but it loses to every other offensive Water Type if it invests into its offenses, which is a huge shame. Keep Seismitoad at C- Rank.

I honestly that Zapdos should drop instead of rising. From my experience with Zapdos, I always found that people who lose to Zapdos tend to make stupid moves by keeping their Ferro in it or something like that. Aside from Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, and Mega Pinsir, Zapdos is not that difficult to break through. I find 90 / 85 / 90 defenses to have been a huge liability, and I really wish this thing had more defense. While it can theoretically beat Excadrill one-on-one, this only applies if Stealth Rock is not up, and it loses to Life Orb variants of Excadrill, which I have seen becoming more common. Zapdos should drop.

I want more discussion on Mega Ampharos before we drop it. It might be worth dropping to C+, but C is overshooting it a bit at the moment.

 

[Puralux]

I agree for Mega Manectric to A rank. He is probably the second best intimidate user in the metagame and one of the best Pokèmons in Volt-turn teams. He gains more physical bulkyness with Intimidate and even more with Landorus-T , which is a main Volt-turn teammate , but Mega Manectric is also useful in other teams. Has a very high base Speed , important factor , and a nice base Special Attack. Another strong point of Manectric is that doesn't have lack of coverage , because has also Flamethrower/Overheat which can use against pokèmons that , without it , will wall Mega Manectric and in many cases setups safely when he is on the field , an example is Ferrothorn. His flaws are compensated by his ability for being very useful in a lot of situations thanks to the stuffs i wrote above , and for other potentialities. A rank is definitely perfect for him.

 

[kabbes]

If Mega-Mane is going up, that's just another reason not to put Lanturn down. Lanturn utterly walls Mega-Mane and completely destroys its ability to Volt-Switch.

McMeghan, I acknowledge that I owe you a replay or two as evidence of these claims. I don't have any I have ready access to on Showdown, but I will see what I can do. I play a lot more in-game than I do on Showdown, sticking to opponents with at least a good few hundred wins (as this is the only way to get any degree of challenge) -- what can I say? I just find simulators unsatisfying by contrast. In-game is, of course, not OU, but those with hundreds of wins to their name tend to follow the same trends, only without avoiding Aeglislash, Kangaskhan and Mawile. This is the main context that I find Lanturn puts in serious work against the many Talonflames, Mega-Manes and Thunderuses that litter that particular meta. And if anybody would like to see it in action, look out for Nolserama in-game!

 

[Thunderorange]

Well, Taunt ruins Wobbuffet, and most stallbreakers beat Wobbuffet because of it, unless you are saying that it can set up a Safeguard before the stallbreaker even comes in - is that what you are trying to say?. As I said before, Wobb can only trap defensive Pokemon that are slower than it (ie Slowbro and Ferrothorn), so its use against stall is based on match-up, but its upper hand against the more common offensive teams is indeed the point I am trying to make.

How exactly does taunt ruin wobuffet? All it does is stops him encoring/safeguarding/destiny bonding. Unless you didn't know that taunt doesn't stop counter/mirror coat? Also if you are dumb enough to stay in on say stallbreaker mew you deserve to die with wobuffet.

 

[Alfalfa]

How exactly does taunt ruin wobuffet? All it does is stops him encoring/safeguarding/destiny bonding. Unless you didn't know that taunt doesn't stop counter/mirror coat? Also if you are dumb enough to stay in on say stallbreaker mew you deserve to die with wobuffet.

Wobbuffet can function without Taunt, but needs more prediction to get its job done.

 

[Celticpride]

Mega Heracross A+ → A: I don't like this one. Hera still 2HKOs the entire meta bar Doublade. Hera also has a lot of usefulness outside of destroying stall (and Hera freaking demolishes stall). Even though it has a big Flying weakness and a Fire weakness, it's typing can also be very helpful by giving it resists to Dark, Fighting and Ground and keeping neutrality to Rock and Steel attacks. Those resistances, when combined with it's surprisingly decent bulk, allow it to handle a lot of physical attackers. Hera can also adapt to handle offensive playstyles better, the Sub+3 Attacks set and Sub+SD set are proof of that. The Sub+SD set in particular is very effective, allowing Hera to do well in a lot of different match-ups. Hera is also surprisingly difficult to take down without an SE attack, it survives Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump and LO Crawdaunt Crabhammer. Those aren't exactly easy neutral attacks for anything to take. Another interesting benefit to using Mega Hera is that while prediction is important, even it you guess wrong you can take away more than 50% of health with a resisted hit. The Lati@s twins take over 50% from CC on the switch, Char-X takes over 50% from Pin Missile, Azu takes 50% from anything, Talonflame takes over 59% from Pin Missile, Landorus-I takes over 50% from any attack (all at +0). The point is that even if you predict the switch wrong they are going to be hurting big. There's a very small handful of things (Ubers included) that can say that. At +2, forget about switching in anything. Hera also holds up well in the current meta, it checks Bisharp, Lando-T, Mega Venusaur, Specs Keldeo (if you can lure Secret Sword), Mamoswine, Excadrill, and Terrakion. It does need support, but nothing too specific or hard to fit. It really only needs a Stallbreaker Mew check (and that allows you to run Adamant SD Hera, which is better outside of Mew imo) and a BirdSpam check or counter. Any solidly built team will have those anyway, and it's not like Mega Hera provides awful synergy or anything. Almost the opposite actually, most BirdSpam checks and counters hate Earthquake (Heatran, Rhyperior, Raikou) and Hera really could care less about it. That's all without touching on the fact that Hera actually dgaf about Sand or Rain. Also, it's better than Mega Gardevoir. Keep Mega Hera in A+.

Staraptor B → B-: I don't know about this. Staraptor is a great all-around attacker, it's got two great abilities, great STAB, and the perfect coverage moves for it's STABs. It only commonly uses Choice items, but it also can fit everything it needs to in four slots (Brave Bird, Edge, CC, U-Turn). Just looking at the other B rank mons, is it really worse than Mandibuzz or regular Scizor? I don't think so. It seems outclassed by Lando-T as an Intimidate Scarfer (even though Reckless is better 90% of the time), but it has the ability to beat Mega Venu easily, speed tie Char-X at worst, 2HKO Chansey fairly consistently, and beats some common Lando-T stops in addition to having a better speed tier. The Band set also hurts the Scarf checks just enough to make it worth using. The Band set with Reckless 2HKOs Gliscor and Slowbro, two of the safer switch-ins to ScarfRaptor. I do see where the dropping standpoint comes from, and SR weakness and recoil really doesn't give it a lot of sustainability in the long run, and it is somewhat outclassed to some degree at every set. I would lean towards B, but I'd like to hear some other viewpoints on this.

Other than those two, the rest are more or less fine. Rhyperior is great at what it does but should never go past B+ imo, it does require a decent amount of support to function correctly. Klefki is overall awesome and it has a great Prankster movepool even without considering Spikes. Depending on whether you chose Physical or Special Defensive it's great typing allows it to check a bunch of different things. It can also use bitch move Prankster TWave. Curious about Zygrarde, Rotom-H, and Conk but I haven't used the former two and the latter is very polarizing for who knows what reason.

 

[kabbes]

I've not played Showdown in too long -- my ladder rating has almost plummeted to zero.

Anyway, although I've spent a tedious evening winning low ladder battles, I don't have much to show for it. Lanturn performed as well as anything, but I don't think it proved much, as pretty much any team could have won. The closest I got to demonstrating the point was this:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-176345987

It's a shit demonstration though -- all it does is show that Lanturn can check Greninja, which we already know.

I will carry on trying to find something that proves the point. Low ladder Showdown is well tedious though.

 

[AM]

A-Rank
Mega Heracross A+ → A
Garchomp A+ → A ?? (really undecided about this one, I'll let you guys decide, I'm really undecided)
Mega Manectric A- → A

B-Rank
Kingdra B → B+ (or Kabutops down to B and then Omastar down to B-)
Rhyperior B → B+ (really incredible niche with good firepower for Offense)
Staraptor B → B-
Mega Ampharos B- → C (idk why you'd want to dedicace your mega slot to it tbh)
Quagsire B- → B
Sableye B- → C+/C
Zapdos B- → B

C-Rank
Conkeldurr C+ → B
Klefki C+ → B (spikes are reallllyyy good, and it's the best alternative for Offense beside Greninja)
Toxicroak C+ → C
Cobalion C → C+/B- (really amazing niche overall)
Froslass C- → C
Rotom-H C- → C/C+
Seismitoad C- → C+
Slowking C- → C
Lanturn: C → C-

D-Rank
Blissey D → C-
Zygarde D → C-

(. _ .)

Relevant Ranking Post

A+ > A Ok so I truly believe that Garchomp has lost some viability as time has passed. Like, it tries to make up for it with sets such as SD and Life Orb variants and for some reason it just doesn't cut it even then. It only manages to handle a few things when the core issues and some relevant newer ones arise. you have these offensive teams that are filled with Lando-T, Latios, M-Manectric, Weavile, etc. The issue is, in order to beat these it needs to run scarf and must rely on prediction and support to clean/revenge kill effectively. When it's not running scarf it loses to its defensive checks such as Chesnaught and Slowbro and has no real way of breaking them. When it runs Life Orb it gets worn down easily. So imo Garchomp is one of those things that most times you have to just pick your poison. It's not like Gengar, a fellow A+ ranked mon, that can pretty much provide great offensive coverage with just one set + different variations of tools and sets. Garchomp is still a great mon considering its nice resistances, solid offensive traits, and great synergy for balanced and offensive teams. However with the usage of stuff like Weavile, Keldeo, Clefable and so on being detrimental to it I think A is where it should stay.

A- > A There's not too much to say that hasn't already been said. Checks a bunch of relevant threats like Greninja and Keldeo pretty well while having a great speed tier to have the advantage in most 1v1 situations. Definitely a viable option equal to that or more to something like Ferrothorn when considering team building options.

B- > B More Zard X, physically offensive oriented set up sweepers (think Double Dance Lando-T, SD Weavile, Lucario, Hawlucha), and in general a physically oriented meta. Quagsire is still pretty dooky against specially offensive mons but obviously that's not the point of using it in the first place. Also in regards to the Zard-X comment I know somebody is going to say something about Outrage landing the 2hko so might as well address that. First off, I haven't seen an Outrage Zard-X in months, and I literally mean months, even more so that it's a liability to run when you got things like M-Gard who gets free switch ins with it. Also I've seen more Zards running Jolly and Careful spreads to handle the majority of other stuff in the meta better. So as far as that goes yeah Quagsire still checks a lot of stuff well, just not as well as before. B would be fine.

C+ > B the big jump is justified. Spikes, Twave for non ground and electric offensive threats, sexy typing for both offensive, balanced, and stall type teams, Prankster in general, easy dual screen set up, checks the Latis, and so on. Can't really speak on the whole Fairy Lock thing but outside of that its positives as a support mon are definitely worth considering.

Those are the ones I'm pretty confident about while I agree with Slowking and Staraptor more or less. The others I got nothing for or believe they should stay but was already mentioned by others. McMeghan mind explaining the big jump with Conkeldurr?

 

[Rosen]

alex bb why must you deny me twice now

instead of just nominating it and getting shot down again, what is the reason weavile has not been bumped up? to place it in the same rank as togekiss and zapdos and mega chomp is pretty sinful

 

[Celticpride]

Mega Heracross A+ => A
Most importantly, its speed. Against faster offensive teams, which make up most of the teams used these days, almost everything can outspeed and KO/heavily damage Heracross, especially if its defense drops from a CC.

Substitute sets help mitigate this problem, and that move is rising quickly on Hera. Also, not everything on offense is quicker than Hera, Bisharp and Clefable being notable for being slower.

There are also some bulky Pokemon, like Azumarill, that can take a hit if necessary and beat it one-v-one.

Azumarill can't switch-in on Hera, losing 1v1 to Azuarill doesn't mean much because that situation is most likely not going to exist, barring a double switch lining up right.

The other mega wallbreakers, such as Charizard Y and Gardevoir, function much better against offense because they can not only absorb some hits from fast/frail Pokemon, they can outspeed the bulky threats like Kyurem or Lando and wreck.

What hits can Char-Y absorb from fast and frail Pokemon that Hera can't? Same with Mega Gardevoir. Outside of SE hits, which vary between the three of them, Hera doesn't take hits any worse than the others.

52 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 270-318 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Hera OHKOs with CC back. So if we are talking about 1v1 situations, Hera beats Kyu-B 7 times out of 8 where Char-Y does not (only a little under 1 out of 5 times):

52 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 290-342 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 340-402 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

As far as Landorus-I goes, Char-Y does answer it very well, but Gard is outsped and usually OHKOed by Sludge Wave, and Hyper Voice isn't even a guaranteed OHKO in return. Psychic is not a guaranteed OHKO on Hera, and Lando has to get a free switch to guarantee a win. Also, none of them outspeed Lando-I, I don't know where that came from. As far as Lando-T goes, Mega Hera takes Landorus-T on better than any of them by a distance. Hera is 3HKOed by max attack Lando-T Stone Edge, Hera 2HKOs in return with Rock Blast.

Another problem is the typing that allows it to be checked by any flying type as well as being weak to fairy and psychic, all prevalent types in the metagame. Out of all the wallbreakers I'd say it does the best job of breaking walls, but what does this really mean when its a complete deadweight against birdspam/most fast and offensive teams, which are the most commonly used teams right now?

It's not complete deadweight against offensive teams, and it's just as much deadweight against BirdSpam as Gardevoir is. It's not like Garde has the physical defense to stand up to Talon and Pinsir either. You are also ignoring Hera's useful resists to Ground, Fighting and Dark(specifically Knock Off), those types are as present in the meta as Flying, Fairy and Fire. Moot point on typing if any. It doesn't auto-lose against fast and frail teams, they often need SE coverage that they are not always carrying. Saying Hera is complete deadweight is a generalization, that's like saying we should drop Talon because the CB set is deadweight against stall. It's not looking at all of it's available sets and how those sets allow it to function against different playstyles.

 

[Klobb]

Just a few comments on the suggestions made:

I have been using Seismitoad as a rock setter as Bloo suggested (I think it was Bloo?) and so far it has been working well for me. It's like Gastro but actually does something even if the opponent didn't bring anything it's supposed to check (that "something" being rocks). No reliable recovery stinks though and it hasn't got great bulk either so it shouldn't rise above C. It's rain sweeper set isn't much more deserving of C- either.

Lanturn is literally the best Pokemon in OU at the moment and should be S Rank but staying in C is fine for now, but a promotion is more justified than a drop because of the rise of Magnezone and Manectric. It can even occasionally sort-of handle Greninja sometimes which is neat-o. I might have a replay but I'm really unsure, I check through my junkyard of them.

Mega Ampharos is strong for a Pokemon who invests mainly into SpDef and can tank many a hit, forcing stuff like Mega Manectric and Charizard-Y to switch out which he takes advantage of with a slow volt switch giving a frailer threat a safe switch in, or just gaining momentum overall. Would be really sad to see it drop at all because it's not bad at all... sure it takes up your mega slot but if your team doesn't need it for anything else, it's definitely worth having.

Zygarde is usable but lacks a solid niche, so I don't know about the rise to C-. I can't think of a reason to use Zygarde over other dragons, but for fellow C- mon Ludicolo I can see myself using him over other swift swimmers because he can deal with Ferrothorn.

Conkeldurr is kind of bad in this meta I don't understand the rise to B. :| In fact, speaking of Conkeldurr and bad stuff why is Heracross D Rank? It was added for its assault vest set which is literally a shitty Conkeldurr which is a huge problem when considering Conkeldurr isn't great to begin with. Maybe I'm wrong about Conkeldurr but Heracross I'm fairly confident about.

 

[trc]

ok guys i just wanted to hear your opinions on banette, it is a pretty shitty mon in practise :]

i support a klefki rise, spikes are in general pretty underrated in this meta but are at least rising in popularity, and greninja is the only common offensive spiker, but klefki is also a great choice because even though it doesn't provide much offensively for ho (it gets foul play i guess tho), it still has an incredibly great defensive typing of steel / fairy which lets it switch into quite a few pokemon and spamming spikes and thunder wave. solid sweeper check and all with a sexy typing and spikes to break all those stalls with doublade and chansey and stuff.

oh and agree with the raise for seismi / coba / rotomh / slowking

 

[MilkyWay]

I actually have a Lanturn replay, from a while ago as you'll be able to tell. Lanturn did it's job well, shutting down the ever so annoying Rotom-W and acting as a pivot in general. It's Heal Bell came up clutch, allowing my Politoed to switch in one extra time making the difference in the match. Scald is a great improvement over Hydro Pump as well, something we shouldnt forget. I did miss the ground immunity for Excadrill, however Excadrill wont want to switch into Lanturn anyways so just make sure to pair Lanturn with a flying or levitating type, which it naturally has great synergy with.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-145566444

I did end up sacking my Lanturn in the end to get Politoed in to lead to the final sweep, but Lanturn certainly pulled its weight and i can definetely say it's worthy of C-ranking, especially with the usage of Magnezone and Mega Manecrtic picking up.

 

[SaberSeven]

Mega Manectric to A looks great for it. A solid check to relevant threats such as Greninja, Azumarill, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, etc coupled with Intimidate to hamper physical attackers like the aforementioned Azumarill & Mega Pinsir along with a solid movepool make it a very useful Mega. It especially appreciates the support from Landorus-T which helps it form a Double Intimidate VoltTurn core which can be very useful in certain situations.

 

[Thunderorange]

Terrakion for A+

Terrakion is a pokemon which has a lot of things going against it and for it. It has 7 weaknesses, the equal most weaknesses of any typing, weak to a ton of priority and his sets all have some failing or another. However Terrakion sits at a good speed tier at 108, has fair bulk and is extremely versatile with many sets and if you guess wrong the result may be disastrous. Rather than attempt to talk about Terrakion as a whole I will break it down into sets.


Lead Terrakion: Probably one of his best sets, lead Terrakion reliably sets up rocks, potentially disables the opposing lead and generally, due to his speed, gets an attack off. This is quite valuable as because of this means he effectively takes out two pokemon (stealth rock damage + attack damage). Also because his offensive stats aren’t shitty Terrakion can come in later in the match to either damage/kill something or reset up SR if they have been defogged away without being a dead weight like some other leads.


Scarf Terrakion: Yes Scarf Terrakion is no longer in its glory days of BW2 but it still is a very good and efficient revenge killer, revenge killing a fair portion of the metagame. In B to S rank (no B-) it revenge kills:

Zard X (even after a D Dance), Greninja, Keldeo (if not scarfed. It can kill after a little prior damage), Latios (I run X scissor. It kills after a little prior damage or even after just SR if you run adamant), Bisharp, Zard Y (plz don’t miss), Heatran, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite (without multiscale obviously), Excadrill (as long as out of sand), Mega Gyarados/Normal (after a DD), Ferrothorn (weakened), Mega Aero, Diggersby, Kyruem-B, Magnezone, T-tar/Mega, Mega Zam, Chansey (I guess?), Raikou, Tornadus-T, Victini, Lucario and Staraptor.


That’s a fair bit.


Band Terrakion: Now Terrakion doesn’t have as much Need4Speed as before he can branch out to some power boosting items. One of the most successful sets at this is the band set which boosts his strength to massive heights while being further abused with his great speed. With a choice band Terrakion wounds a ton of the meta just with CC alone, even resists. For example it does 50+% to the Lati twin as it tries to switch into a CC. It even 2HKOs every type of Mega Venusaur with Stone Edge after rocks (for max hp + max defence bold but every other spread is 2HKOed without rocks) which is an impressive feat for non SE damage. This would be terrifying enough with something that doesn’t have great speed (oh hi Kyruem-B) but with Terrakion this is just amazing. Since a lot of people take great store in a poke good against all playstyles I will say that CB Terrak does work against all of them, especially stall.


While it is susceptible to some priority and faster/scarfed pokes with an SE attack or just a powerful attack, teammates can cover for this and allow Terrakion to destroy his opponents’ pokemon.


I haven’t used SD Terrakion much so I feel someone else should talk about it, not me.


Edit:

Actually, Pin Missile does have 100% accuracy. Rock Blast only has 90%. But your other points remain valid. I would argue that M-Heracross behind a Sub is more dangerous than one with just a Swords Dance (unless the opponent has M-Gardevoir), because if given the opportunity to set up a sub, it's almost a guarantee that something dies. A+ seems good to me.

He was right, Pin missile has 95% accuracy.

 

[alexwolf]

Small update:

Mega Manectric: A- ---> A
Klefki: C+ ---> B-
Cobalion: C ---> C+
Seismitoad: C- ---> C
Rotom-H: C- ---> C
Slowking: C- ---> C

Also, Rosen, Weavile didn't rise to B because it was voted to stay in B-, as it wasn't deemed as good of an offensive threat as Lucario or Crawdaunt, mainly because it is Stealth Rock weak and easier to wall / check.

Let's see some more talk about Mega Heracross, Garchomp, and the rest of the changes suggested by McMeghan.

 

[Gloating]

I haven’t used SD Terrakion much so I feel someone else should talk about it, not me.

I have used SD Terrakion but on the lead SR set and it's amazing. I put it over Taunt since everyone expects the Taunt anyway. It's better than lead SD Chomp because Close Combat doesn't lock you in like Outrage and the extra speed is nice. No one really expects it which makes it even more effective. I agree that Terrakion should go back to A+ as I find it's overall more effective than Garchomp who sits in A+. Resistant to Extremespeed and Sucker Punch plus getting a boost from Knock Off are also nice.

 

[Celticpride]

My last post on Mega Heracross, and how it fits in the meta compared to other wallbreakers:

• Against BirdSpam: Yes, it destroys Heracross. However, Gardevoir and Charizard-Y also lose to BirdSpam in most situations. Char-Y loses to every variant of Talonflame out there, and is also OHKOed by Mega Pinsir Return 100% of the time. Gard loses to Mega Pinsir every time, and loses to every variant of Talonflame as well. Gard is actually set-up bait for Bulk Up Taloflame as well.
• Against Rain: Hera actually plays very well against Rain, it's almost assured his Fire weakness is weakened. Politoed having to come in to reset Rain also gives Heracross entry windows, and which point he almost OHKOs Poli with CC, OHKOs every SSer (even Kingdra with CC), or takes out over 50% of Tornadus-T's health with CC (OHKOs outright with Rock Blast). Hera can also OHKO Ferro in the Rain, that is insanely valuable to offensive teams that have difficulty taking down Ferro in the Rain. Hera also checks LO Kabutops. Gardevoir can do the same thing Hera does, come in against Poli and abuse free turns with Hyper Voice, however SDef Poli gives it issues with spamming Hyper Voice, it doesn't check any SSer except for Specs Kingdra locked into a Dragon move. Char-Y against the Rain almost entirely depends on how often you can get Sun (or Sand) up and force Poli to come back in.
• Against Sand: Mega Hera checks both halves of the TTar-Excadrill core really well, and can usually take both on at once. It also plays well against some common Sand Offense teammates. Char-Y takes away the Sand, so again it's reliant on how much you can get it in to change the weather. It does fear Stone Edge and Rock Slide on the switch against TTar, Exca and friends however. Gard checks TTar, but it's not as strong a check as one might think. Hyper Voice is a 2HKO, Focus Blast only has 70% accuracy. Gard also lives in fear of Excadrill, it has to predict the switch and hit with Focus Blast. Relying in Focus Blast to take down Drill opens up easy switches to common Sand teammates as well, Scarf Lando-T just loves eating Focus Blasts.
• Against VoltTurn: Mega Hera is a very good switch in to Landorus-T, and SD variants play well even when Landorus is switched into them. Mega Manectric needs Overheat to even have a small chance at OHKOing Hera, Flamethrower doesn't cut it, and Pin Missile will cripple Manectric at -1 (85% minimum). Rotom-W and Raikou, other common VoltTurners, both lose to Hera unless Rotom is speed creeping big time. Gard shuts down Volt switchers as well, but it can't take on Scarf Landorus-T with any kind of bulk investment. Char-Y hates VoltTurn, Lando-T Stone Edge takes it out if it hits, and AV Raikou 2HKOs while living any attack. Mega Manectric has a chance to lose to if the Thunderbolt damage roll doesn't fall right, Fire Blast OHKOs in return.
• The Speed Tier: Mega Heracross is slower than the other two, but how much does that really matter? How many relevant threats fall in between Hera's speed and the base 100's? CB Dragonite has a chance to OHKO with Outrage, but Jolly Hera outspeds Adamant DNite and Jolly Dragonite virtually loses out on the OHKO (6.3% chance to OHKO with Jolly). Bisharp sometimes falls in between, but Hera beats Bish every time. Max speed Mega Scizor outspeds Hera but not the others, however Hera can get by with Rock Blast followed by CC. Landorus-T falls in between Hera and the others, but Scarf lets Landorus outspeed all of them, and Hera is in the favorable position against Landorus-T in almost every situation. Mew can be an issue, but Sub Hera dgaf about Mew and uses it as set-up bait. It also beats Mew if it hasn't Mega Evoed yet, 85 base speed Jolly Hera outspeeds stallbreaker Mew and OHKOs. Hera doesn't care about Mega Venu (even the HP Fire kind) or slower Heatran. ScarfTran can beat all the wallbreakers except maybe Medicham. Hera doesn't care about Exca or Gliscor at all really unless you're using Acro Gliscor. It outspeeds every slower Rotom, and fast Rotom tend not to carry WoW. Jolly Hera beats Diggersby unless it's Sashed, in which case all wallbreakers lose. HP Fire from Specs Magnezone doesn't OHKO Hera (not even close actually), and CC OHKOs back. Hera doesn't care about any kind of TTar outside of Scarf TTar (who screws all wallbreakers more or less). Hell, Hera even checks DD Mega TTar with Fire Punch if it switches in on the DD. So what exactly falls in between Hera and the other three speed wise that Mega Hera actually cares about? Bulky Tail Glow Manaphy?
• What they check: Mega Gard checks Latios and Greninja, Mega Hera checks Bisharp, Excadrill and Scarf Landorus-T. About even if you ask me. Mega Hera even has a decent chance to beat Keldeo 1v1.

If we are going to drop Mega Heracross to A (and it shouldn't), Mega Gardevoir should go down with it. There's really nothing Gard does that that Hera can't do, and they check roughly equivalent threats. You can't really tell me that Gardevoir is that much better than Hera that it merits a sub rank difference between them. Mega Heracross should stay in A+ btw.

 

[yoloburn]

Also, Rosen, Weavile didn't rise to B because it was voted to stay in B-, as it wasn't deemed as good of an offensive threat as Lucario or Crawdaunt, mainly because it is Stealth Rock weak and easier to wall / check.

How are these comparisons even fair?

Crawdaunt is a niche wallbreaker generally outclassed by Azumarill. Lucario is a... what? He just dies for the most part.

Weavile is a revenge killer and late game cleaner that checks some of the most common pokemons in OU.

Weavile checks both scarf and defensive Lando-T, which is literally everywhere. It ohkos the Latis, probably the most popular pokemon in OU, and can switch into psyshock. Ferro and Heatran are 2hko'd by low kick so they can't switch in. Its checks are crippled by knock off. For example, Keldeo loses the scarf/specs and Rotom-W loses lefties, making it even easier to wear down. It has super effective coverage against the Pinsir/Mag combo while being faster than both. It kills the "catch all" pivots like Mew/Jirachi in balanced and offensive teams that have grown in popularity lately.

And how could I forget Greninja, the new golden boy of OU. Weavile destroys it.

I feel like I could go on. Weavile is much better than both of those mons.

 

[Karxrida]

How are these comparisons even fair?

Crawdaunt is a niche wallbreaker generally outclassed by Azumarill. Lucario is a... what? He just dies for the most part.

Weavile is a revenge killer and late game cleaner that checks some of the most common pokemons in OU.

Weavile checks both scarf and defensive Lando-T, which is literally everywhere. It ohkos the Latis, probably the most popular pokemon in OU, and can switch into psyshock. Ferro and Heatran are 2hko'd by low kick so they can't switch in. Its checks are crippled by knock off. For example, Keldeo loses the scarf/specs and Rotom-W loses lefties, making it even easier to wear down. It has super effective coverage against the Pinsir/Mag combo while being faster than both. It kills the "catch all" pivots like Mew/Jirachi in balanced and offensive teams that have grown in popularity lately.

And how could I forget Greninja, the new golden boy of OU. Weavile destroys it.

I feel like I could go on. Weavile is much better than both of those mons.

Weavile also is a free switch for Zard X, Clefable, Azumarill, (Mega) Scizor, Gyarados, Mega Manectric, Mega Venusaur, and Keldeo, with a shitton more things that check it.

It can't switch into Lati@s reliably since Draco Metero OHKOs.

Ferro might switch in anyway just to cost you about a quarter of your health from hitting it. Protect can buy it a turn of Lefties and potentially survive another attack (or just switch out).

You need SR up to beat Pinsir with Ice Shard while +2 Quick Attack can OHKO.

Greninja is a crapshoot since either can win based whether or not SR is up and damage rolls.

 

[yoloburn]

Weavile also is a free switch for Zard X, Clefable, Azumarill, (Mega) Scizor, Gyarados, Mega Manectric, Mega Venusaur, and Keldeo, with a shitton more things that check it and can't switch into Lati@s reliably since Draco Metero OHKOs. Greninja is a crapshoot since either can win based whether or not SR is up and damage rolls.

Weavile is stronger than you think.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 156-185 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 156-185 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Charizard X can't switch in, and with rocks it's a guaranteed KO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clef needs to be at full health to avoid the kill, which can be hard to do since it's usually relied upon to sponge hits.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 138-164 (41.6 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 299-354 (90.3 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gyara cannot switch in.

Keldeo is crippled pretty badly. Azumarill counters it completely and Scizor gets a switch in, but I'm not claiming it's S-rank. I'm just saying it's better than something like Lucario, and way better than everything in B- rank.