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DP Research Thread #3 ("Newer")

Ah, I knew there was something I was forgetting.

Can you Assist Assist? What happens if you Mimic Assist and Assist a) works, or b) fails?
 
You can hack WonderGuard onto Spiritomb and Fire Fang still hits it. You can Trace WonderGuard onto Porygon2 and Fire Fang hits it.

Oh, and no, Shedinja's weaknesses are not copied. Flamethrower, for instance, does not hit any of the aforementioned Pokemon.
 
zerowing just tested for me, Teeter Dance is not boucned back by Magic Coat.

So, for the record, stuff that was tested and confirmed to not be boucned back:

What doesn't work:
  • Curse (ghost)
  • Defog
  • Disable
  • Encore
  • Foresight
  • Guard Swap
  • Lock-On
  • Mind Reader
  • Power Swap
  • Psych Up
  • Role play
  • Taunt
  • Teeter Dance
  • Torment
  • Trick
 
Hi.

I thought I'd drop in and tell you that I've just been testing Quick Claw for D/P. All in all it has so far activated in 29 turns out of 140. Seems like 20% or something very close to me.

EDIT:

7/35
7/35
6/35
9/35
9/35

Total: 38/175 = ~21.7% so far.

EDIT2: Heh, this is almost making me think the chance is variable, because the numbers seem to be steadily growing with each test.

7/35
7/35
6/35
9/35
9/35
11/35
10/35

Quick Claw activated 59 out of 245 times: ~24%

Maybe that old 23.4% figure is right after all.

I'm actually doing this with a Stall Sableye for some reason, but I can't imagine the chance would specifically be different for Pokémon with Stall.
 
A short while ago I got into a somewhat heated argument with Colin, creator of shoddybattle, over whether Substitute was blocked by Yawn or not. He trusts Amazing Ampharos and tenchi17, both who claim that Yawn goes straight through Substitute. I, on the other hand, have personally seen the "But it failed!" message you get when you try to Yawn against a Pokemon with Substitute.

So I was willing to consider the possibility that Yawn behaves differently in-game - which was where I tested it - compared to link battles. So I asked yamipoli to help me test it out in a link battle. Our results?

Espeon used Substitute!
Togetic used Yawn!
But it failed!

At this point I would like to stop and ask these two researchers to consider the following possibilities:

A) That when you first tested Yawn + Substitute, the programmers had forgotten to program Substitute to block Yawn and thus corrected it in subsequent battles, á la the pre-English release Choice item + Pursuit glitch, or

B) you did something stupid like

Pokemon X used Yawn!
Pokemon Y used Substitute!
Pokemon Y fell asleep next turn!

Anyway, I apologize to Colin, and tenchi and whoever else was involved in the somewhat heated argument for being somewhat snippy and wielding my "badgeholder" credentials as if it were a hundred-pound rubber dildo in swordfighting combat. I'm trying to get back into a normal sleep schedule, the process of which is getting me less sleep than I need, so I'm currently prone to snippiness, lack of sound judgement, and ridiculous analogies. Thanks for putting up with me.

Now go fix Yawn + Substitute!

EDIT: Add minor grammar infractions to my list of offenses. :(
 
If this is the case, I suspect that tenchi and AA meant that substitute does not block the falling asleep part and I just misinterpreted it (so blame me for the confusion, not them ;)). I suppose I'll change the behaviour. Thank you for clarifying the nature of the problem and of course testing it.
 
It seems Pokemon with the Oblivious trait are also immune to the move Captivate. I stumbled across this when battling a wild level 50 Purugly with my Oblivious Wailord. When Purugly used Captivate, a message similar to

"Wailord's Oblivious prevents attraction!"

Or something like that appeared.
 
Regarding length ofsleep:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=528579&postcount=315

100 trials. I never got 5 "fast alseep" messages in a row.

I still would very much like someone to test Assist's behavior in PBR. Namely, whether it can call up the moves of fainted teammates.

Attacks of fainted Pokemon all called up.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=554924&postcount=94

I do not think that Sleep lasts 1-4 turns. I'm 90% sure that I have seen, and had Pokémon asleep for longer than that. In D/P and Advance. If I am mistaken, I shall correct the Status thread.

IIRC you can get 5 "fast alseep" messages in a row in RSEFL. In Japanese versions of DP you can get 5 "fast alseep" messages in a row. In English DP, you can't.

Can you Assist Assist?

Not in DP. If you could and assuming Assist after the first work, you would end up with an endless chain of Assist is that's the only mo0ve on your team.
 
Samson said:
has there been any mention of what items are affected by the ability Simple? perhaps it is just the in-game description of the ability, but it does say that items are affected as well.

i tested several items on identical Bibarel with different abilities (Simple and Unaware) and i haven't found anything that has actually changed the battle conditions. i tested all the Choice items, Life Orb, Expert Belt, and some others and i didn't notice any difference in the damage outcome and sequence of battle.

i know i could've asked in the Simple Question's thread but i wanted confirmation on whether the game's description is faulty. i know it seems silly to be so interested in one ability on one weak poke, but i dunno, i think it's kinda cute XD
Click to expand...
Simple doesn't boost items. The English version of the game states "This Pokemon is prone to wild stat changes". It doesn't have anything to do with items.

Same with Unaware. Unaware ignores the stat changes of the foe (except those pertaining to Speed). It doesn't have anything to do with items.

Does Simple increase the boost of Gravity, Light Screen, Reflect, or Tail Wind?

I'm pretty sure that Light Screen and Reflect are not affected, even without testing them, as they are not stat changes.

Gravity depends on whether it is a +2 increase in accuracy for the user, or a -2 decrease in evasion for the foe (yamipoli told me the japanese people who told her about Gravity's effect are not sure if it's the former or the latter). Since Simple affects only the user's stat changes, and not the foe's, it should increase the effect of the former case but not of the latter case.

About Tailwind, I think it is not a stat change, and hence Simple shouldn't boost it. This is what I think, though... I haven't tested this.
 
ok so we´re at 7 moves left, not many but some of these are a pain...

anyway, gonna test disable...and when I´m bored maybe start with metronome (we should open a metronome topic with a list of all moves for every smogon user to test it a bit)

a few notes, encore seems to be an even turn distribution, I didn´t test it much but in the 5 or 6 tries I didn´t get 6 turns (shadow yoshi got it 6/15)...anyway, needs more testing

counter can be chosen by sleep talk so I wouldn´t mix sleep talk with the assist list


EDIT:

Disable: 4,6,6,5,7,8,6,5,4,4, 7,7,5,6,7,7,7,4,5,7, 5,4,5,7,6,5,5,5,6,5
-> I was disturbed by a phone call during those two in bold, they can also be 6 and 7 instead of 7 and 8 (it´s a bit hard to keep track of them in a 2vs2 battle), so if it was 6 and 7 indeed the results are:

4 turns: 5/30
5 turns: 10/30
6 turns: 7/30
7 turns: 8/30

-> disable fails if oponent used up the PP of the move you were about to disable
-> disable fails if you try to disable the same target again (only 1 move can be disabled)
-> target doesn´t attack if the move it was about to use was disabled (also doesn´t struggle), only a "move is disabled message" is shown
-> target struggles if all the other moves besides the disabled have zero PP
-> struggle doesn´t recoil if the foe protects

I need someone else to test disable to see if 8 turns are possible




Assist: What cannot be selected?

Things that can be called up
Baton Pass
Bide
Curse
Hidden Power
Imprison
Last Resort (always fails if Assist is your only move)
Memento
Metal Burst
Natural Gift
Roar
Sucker Punch
Transform
Trick Room
Whirlwind

Things that can't:
Chatter
Copycat
Counter
Destiny Bond
Detect
Endeavor
Endure
Focus Punch
Helping Hand
Mimic
Mirror Move
Me First
Metronome
Mirror Coat
Protect
Sketch
Sleep Talk
Snatch

Anything else? Can you Assist Assist? If you can, what happens if the only move your partners know is Assist?

How to test: Get a Pokemon that only knows the move you want to test. Make this Pokemon and a Pokemon with Assist as the only members of your party. Use Assist

Disable: How long does it last? Probably 4-7 turns, needs more tests to see if 8 is possible.
How to test: Use Disable, count how long it lasts. At least 15 trials should be good.

Encore: Lasts 4-8 turns. Is this an even distribution chance (as in 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 turns all have equal probabilities)?
How to test: Use Encore, count how long it lasts. At least 15 trials should be good.

Metronome: Anyone up for a test where you wait for almost 500 attacks to be selected? A metronome tournament will probably be held, doesn´t mean it shouldn´t be individually tested.

Mist: Does it block Haze, Heart Swap, Power Swap, or Intimidate?

Secret Power: Is the chance of these effect occurring 30% for all of them?

Sleep Talk: Any other moves besides Focus Punch not chosen?
 
Team Rocket Elite said:
Regarding length ofsleep:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=528579&postcount=315

100 trials. I never got 5 "fast alseep" messages in a row.
Click to expand...

Very well sir, I shall correct my Status guide.

X-Act said:
Gravity depends on whether it is a +2 increase in accuracy for the user, or a -2 decrease in evasion for the foe (yamipoli told me the japanese people who told her about Gravity's effect are not sure if it's the former or the latter). Since Simple affects only the user's stat changes, and not the foe's, it should increase the effect of the former case but not of the latter case.

About Tailwind, I think it is not a stat change, and hence Simple shouldn't boost it. This is what I think, though... I haven't tested this.
Click to expand...

Hmm ... on Tailwind, I'm personally leaning for Stat Modifier change. Or at least that's what I'm getting from a conversation regarding its gayness at #smogon. Thus, that is what I have for it in the guide I am planning to put out this morning. If you find otherwise, please let me know ASAP via my guide thread or PM.
 
I´m not a "simple" expert but tested it with tailwind, articuno (106 speed) was still faster than bibarel (95 speed) in the next turn

so tailwind is not a stat change
 
Peterko said:
I´m not a "simple" expert but tested it with tailwind, articuno (106 speed) was still faster than bibarel (95 speed) in the next turn

so tailwind is not a stat change
Click to expand...

Tailwind isn't a stat change ... what on earth is it then? Is it a seperate Modifier then? I came up with

Final Speed Stat = Current Stat x Stat Modifier x Ability Modifier x Item Modifier x Paralysis Modifier

but am I going to have to shove Failwind into here somewhere too?
 
Arseus said:
Tailwind isn't a stat change ... what on earth is it then? Is it a seperate Modifier then? I came up with

Final Speed Stat = Current Stat x Stat Modifier x Ability Modifier x Item Modifier x Paralysis Modifier

but am I going to have to shove Failwind into here somewhere too?
Click to expand...

Was the order verified? >_> I'm treating Unburden as an extra stat modifier level, and doing statModifier * paralysisModifier * itemModifier * abilityModifier. Items would be quick powder/choice scarf (and macho brace etc. if I figure out how much they reduce speed), abilities would be swift swim etc. It may just be an extra modifier.
 
Blizzard said:
Was the order verified? >_> I'm treating Unburden as an extra stat modifier level, and doing statModifier * paralysisModifier * itemModifier * abilityModifier. Items would be quick powder/choice scarf (and macho brace etc. if I figure out how much they reduce speed), abilities would be swift swim etc. It may just be an extra modifier.
Click to expand...


Why woud Unburden be an extra modifier? It's just like a new cap for stats that aren't Speed bascially, if I understand correctly. Also, I'm fairly sure my formula is how it works. Otherwise stuff would be waay faster after being Paralyzed. Also, Macho Brace, the Power items, and Iron Ball all multiply Speed by 0.5.
 
X-Act said:
Gravity depends on whether it is a +2 increase in accuracy for the user, or a -2 decrease in evasion for the foe (yamipoli told me the japanese people who told her about Gravity's effect are not sure if it's the former or the latter). Since Simple affects only the user's stat changes, and not the foe's, it should increase the effect of the former case but not of the latter case.

About Tailwind, I think it is not a stat change, and hence Simple shouldn't boost it. This is what I think, though... I haven't tested this.
Click to expand...
Gravity works on both you and your foe, so in either case you'll either have higher accuracy yourself or YOU will have lower evasiveness.
 
Arseus said:
Tailwind isn't a stat change ... what on earth is it then? Is it a seperate Modifier then? I came up with

Final Speed Stat = Current Stat x Stat Modifier x Ability Modifier x Item Modifier x Paralysis Modifier

but am I going to have to shove Failwind into here somewhere too?
Click to expand...
Well, that means Tailwind is an extra Speed modifier that isn't a stat change, just like Reflect and Light Screen are extra Defense/Special Defense modifiers that aren't stat changes.

Gravity works on both you and your foe, so in either case you'll either have higher accuracy yourself or YOU will have lower evasiveness.

Oh, so Simple Pokemon should have -4 evasiveness instead of -2... lol. That would make the foe hit them for... 233.33% accuracy? We need to test this. Dynamicpunch and Zap Cannon should hit Bibarel 100% of the time if that's the case. (Sadly, it is weak to both moves :().
 
Team Rocket Elite said:
For what it's worth, PBR claims Gravity lowers evade. That also makes more sense than rising accuracy.
Click to expand...
Yes! That's what I thought, and have in my guide XD My reasoning exactly as well.


X-Act said:
Well, that means Tailwind is an extra Speed modifier that isn't a stat change, just like Reflect and Light Screen are extra Defense/Special Defense modifiers that aren't stat changes.
Click to expand...

Ah, so where would it fit in? Is it after, or before the Paralysis modifer?
 
superman is here....I mean I´ve tested it a few hrs ago (then I slept :D )

ok first of all, someone has to clarify what in the world the ability simple does...my bibarel could use amnesia three times and defense curl six times (?)...I used a burned dynamicpunch breloom, they were around the same level (50 and 53)

test result: 13/15 hit under gravity, which means it doesn´t lower evasion according to what I read here

I repeat myself, I have no clue what simple actually does, I don´t even understand the in-gmae description properly ._.




EDIT: got this PM
Mence said:
[NAME]
Taunt ***
[SHORT DESC]
Forces the target to use damaging moves for 2-4 turns.
[LONG DESC]
Forces the target to use damaging moves for 2-4 turns. Prevents the use of Nature Power, Sleep Talk, Assist, and Metronome. Does not prevent the use of Counter or Mirror Coat.

that the description has been added because it was not on the original list?
Click to expand...
Also Include Pain Split.
Click to expand...

pain split as prevented or not prevented? btw. the current description is

[NAME]
Taunt ***
[SHORT DESC]
Forces the target to use damaging moves for 3-5 turns.
[LONG DESC]
Forces the target to use damaging moves for 3-5 turns. Prevents the use of Nature Power, Sleep Talk, Assist, and Metronome. Does not prevent the use of Bide, Counter, Endeavor, Metal Burst, or Mirror Coat.
 
Simple makes stats ups and downs act as if they were twice the level they are actually at. If your stat has been rasied by 1 level, it acts as if it was rasied by 2 levels. 2 levels acts like 4. 3 or more act like the stat has been raised 6 times.

For non Evade/Accuracy stats it looks something like this:

Stat Modifier is -6: SM = 2/8 (0.25)
Stat Modifier is -5: SM = 2/8 (0.25)
Stat Modifier is -4: SM = 2/8 (0.25)
Stat Modifier is -3: SM = 2/8 (0.25)
Stat Modifier is -2: SM = 2/6 (0.3333)
Stat Modifier is -1: SM = 2/4 (0.5)
Stat Modifier is 0: SM = 2/2 (1)
Stat Modifier is 1: SM = 4/2 (2)
Stat Modifier is 2: SM = 6/2 (3)
Stat Modifier is 3: SM = 8/2 (4)
Stat Modifier is 4: SM = 8/2 (4)
Stat Modifier is 5: SM = 8/2 (4)
Stat Modifier is 6: SM = 8/2 (4)

The same general idea applies to Evade and Accuracy, but the numbers are different because a different scale is used.

What we're trying to determine is if Simple has an effect on things other than standard stat ups/stat downs.
 
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