Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

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Protect mega swampert new meta.

Seriously though how the hell is 150 base attack not that great without a boost? like, what?! Rayquaza has base 150 attack. It's not like swamperts moves are weak either, a STAB EQ 2HKO's like the entire meta barring resists and you're almost always going to be using waterfall in the rain which is just insanely powerful.
 
a question from the earlier threads piqued my interest, and i feel the need to bring it up: is mega latios worth the mega slot over lo or scarf latios?
 
You should really be running zen headbutt for mega gross. It has no business trying to take on talonflame and zard x considering rock slide can't come close to OHKO'ing zard x and it just OHKO's with flare blitz, and with any prior damage to your gross talon outspeeds and OHKO's with a banded flare blitz if you haven't boosted yet. (43% chance to OHKO at full HP).
With zen headbutt you get a powerful stab for mega venu, keldeo, rotom-w, and a ton of other stuff.
 
shilly said:
a question from the earlier threads piqued my interest, and i feel the need to bring it up: is mega latios worth the mega slot over lo or scarf latios?
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Not really? Mega-Latios hits slightly less hard than LO Latios. It's a better Keldeo answer, I guess, since its defenses are better and it isn't losing health to LO. If that's worth a Mega slot to you, then go for it I guess. But it doesn't have the insane bulk of MLatias, who is an even better counter still.

People have been talking up DD sets, but they seem kinda gimmicky. Its only real niche over CharX is the slightly better speed, while CharX hits significantly harder thanks to Tough Claws, has a way more useful second STAB, and is immune to burns. It doesn't get easily revenged by Scarf Terrakion, I guess. Draco Meteor to hit physical walls seems nice except that it doesn't help you against Skarmory or Ferrothorn, who wall your STABs.

(And anyhow, MMence is faster and harder hitting than both, so there's definitely no real point running the set while he's still around.)
 
Hogg said:
Not really? Mega-Latios hits slightly less hard than LO Latios. It's a better Keldeo answer, I guess, since its defenses are better and it isn't losing health to LO. If that's worth a Mega slot to you, then go for it I guess. But it doesn't have the insane bulk of MLatias, who is an even better counter still.

People have been talking up DD sets, but they seem kinda gimmicky. Its only real niche over CharX is the slightly better speed, while CharX hits significantly harder thanks to Tough Claws, has a way more useful second STAB, and is immune to burns. It doesn't get easily revenged by Scarf Terrakion, I guess...

(And anyhow, MMence is faster and harder hitting than both, so there's definitely no real point running the set while he's still around.)
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Ddance mlatios can u run more efficient mixed sets than charx would. It doesnt get stopped by rhyperior and its not as easily threatened by varios scarf users due to its speed tier which is a plus. The reason you would run mlatios is for mixed sweeper sets and bulky roost attacker sets where it has more immediate offensive presence than mlatias. Really up to the person to see if the mega choice is justified but regular latios and mega serve different functions and as such can only be compared to a degree not as a whole.
 
Fair enough. I still find Mega-Latios mostly underwhelming, though. I guess my issue is that I see three potential MLatios sets:

1. Mixed DD. Definitely outclassed by Salamence, and faces decent competition from CharX. (Both beat the most common Scarfer in the game, Landorus-T, and while Latios can break Slowbro and Rhyperior with Draco Meteor, CharX can get by the steels that totally wall Latios.)

2. Bulky attacker. Mostly outclassed by MLatias. Running EQ for Heatran with your decent attack is basically the only niche you'll have here over your sister.

3. Basically the exact same Latios set as always (3 attacks + Roost/Defog, no defensive investment.) A little better than LO Latios, but only a little. Unless you really fear getting worn down by Keldeo, it's not a significant enough boost to warrant a mega slot, IMO.
 
Here's the current M-Latios set I've been using (I wrote a long post about it):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/latios-latias.3496902/page-8#post-5839669

Honestly, the only reason I see using Mega Latios is if you literally want a Mega Defogger. He has more immediate power than his Mega Sister (who cannot break 400 Sp.Atk unless running a Modest Nature), and in my set, Latios achieves 437 Sp.Atk with 363 HP while reaching 279 speed (allowing him to outpace threats up to, and including, Jolly Taunt Heatran.) Basically, this M-Latios can Defog all day long with Recover, and can nuke stuff with Draco Meteor if necessary. You even hit a little harder than Life Orb Latias.

If you slap the set I posted on Mega Latias you're weaker by 31 points of Sp.Atk but marginally bulkier (the extra bulk doesn't really change what you're 2HKOed by so the extra power boost with Latios is more valuable. And remember, you don't have a life orb). With M-Latias you might as well just invest in max speed and sp.attack (reaches 379) and be able to speed tie with the normal threats.

I feel that Bulky Mega Latios is one of the best (if not the best) defogger in the game. He's bulkier than his Life Orb Sister, Hits harder than her, and doesn't fear knock-off as much. He's much more bulkier than his LO version at the cost of a power drop. But now the question is..."Is a Mega Defogger even worth the slot?. I suppose if you really want Stealth Rock off the field, or if your team is based around a non-mega like Talonflame, Weavile, Greninja, Keldeo, Volcarona, Gengar, Terrakion, Thundurus, Crawdaunt, or Azumarill. But we all know these pokemon aren't built around much anymore, and are usually used to support Megas. So in conclusion, it's probably not worth the mega-spot.

***

The Mixed DD set for M-Latios is heavily outclassed by Salamence at the moment. But even then, LO Latios hits harder than Mega Latios, doesn't require a turn to setup, and doesn't take up a mega slot. Also it isn't prone to Zen Headbutt misses. I can't really see DD Latios taking off anytime soon, especially since it's still prone to priority.
 
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I honestly think people have been forgetting about the big threat named Talonflame. This is the calc for all New ORAS OU Megas taking a Banded Brave Bird from Talonflame. I switched to Flare Blitz to the people who resist Brave Bird.

Sceptile:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 668-788 (236.8 - 279.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blaziken:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 630-744 (209.3 - 247.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Swampert:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 217-256 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Beedrill:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 954-1124 (352 - 414.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pidgeot:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeot: 283-334 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Slowbro:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 100 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 111-132 (31.1 - 37%) -- 75.8% chance to 3HKO
Steelix:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 100 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 182-216 (57.5 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sableye:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 145-172 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sharpedo:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 315-372 (112 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Camerupt:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Camerupt: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Altaria:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Altaria: 205-243 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Glalie:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Glalie: 470-554 (156.1 - 184%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Salamence:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 202-238 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Metagross:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Metagross: 318-374 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lopunny:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny: 494-584 (182.2 - 215.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gallade:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 492-578 (177.6 - 208.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Audino:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Audino: 159-187 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Diance:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

As you can see, Talonflame has the base power to almost 2OHKO every New OU Mega.
 
AM said:
Ddance mlatios can u run more efficient mixed sets than charx would. It doesnt get stopped by rhyperior and its not as easily threatened by varios scarf users due to its speed tier which is a plus. The reason you would run mlatios is for mixed sweeper sets and bulky roost attacker sets where it has more immediate offensive presence than mlatias. Really up to the person to see if the mega choice is justified but regular latios and mega serve different functions and as such can only be compared to a degree not as a whole.
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fair enough. i have only used m-latios once (bulky dd set) and i found him to be a pretty reliable dragon dancer, albeit not on the level of zard-x or mega mence (but hell, +1 mega mence can 1-2hko most of the metagame) but packs enough of a punch on the physical side to be a good user of a mixed set. however, regular latios with lo or a trick scarf/specs set is still the more reliable type of latios, imo.
 
Mega Latios I think is an acceptable option, but it's ultimately an after thought. Like, if you manage to put together a team without using your Mega, Mega Latios's bulk and only slight power drop makes him the superior choice to LO Latios. That said, I don't foresee many teams with that luxury considering how many of the new toys are powerful Megas, and how many of the old megas will be stepping in to counter them as well.
 
I'm finding a strong core in Sceptile, Greninja, and Talonflame. Between those three, almost all bases are covered.

Sceptile @Sceptilite
Ability: lightning rod
Timid Nature
EVs: 252 speed, 252 special attack, 4 HP
Energy Ball
Focus Blast
Dragon Pulse
Substitute/ Synthesis

It's a pretty standard set, Syntheses is there like Roost is on Char Y. Giga Drain may work better with subs, but the lack of PP is dangerous for a primary STAB move.

Greninja Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Naive Nature
EVs: 252 speed, 240 special attack, 16 attack
Hydro Pump
Dark Pulse
Gunk Shot
Ice Beam

The EVs might switch around a bit, but thus is IMO the best ninja set. Dark Pulse is important because Gross and Bro will be everywhere, not to mention other psychics and ghosts like Lati@s, and Gengar. Ice coverage is more important than any other kind of coverage in ninja's move pool because dragons are everywhere, otherwise I say go with Extrasensory or HP fire.

Talonflame @Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 attack, 60 speed, 196 HP
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Roost
Steel Wing/ U-Turn/ Swords Dance

The item here is optional, I prefer the added bulk from the berry because it lets me get in another attack and possibly a KO before I have to roost, I also hate band on this guy. Steel Wing gives neat coverage on fairy types, but is otherwise useless, turn is pretty good on this guy, and Swords Dance can be used if the rest of your team has great coverage.
 
So I know Doublade rose in usage to counter a wide variety of wallbreaking megas. Since there's a ton of new megas competing for that slot, do you think Doublade will still be good?
 
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WebBowser said:
So I know Doublade rose in usage to counter a wide variety of wallbreaking megas. Since there's a ton of new megas competing for that slot, do you think Doublade will still be good?
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Doubt it, with new stall favoring mega mons including Mega Sableye Doublade will see more competition, sure it can stop Mega Gallade and some other mon relying on fighting moves but it will be next to useless with Mega Lopunny on the opposite side.
 
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WebBowser said:
So I know Doublade rose in usage to counter a wide variety of wallbreaking megas. Since there's a ton of new megas competing for that slot, do you think Doublade will still be good?
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Doublade still stacks up against some new Megas. It checks Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill (checks Knock Off Beedrill pretty hard actually), Mega Metagross (even with Earthquake), and Mega Gallade (Doub survives the +2 Knock Off and OHKOs with SClaw). So it does have some use against some new Megas as well.

252 Atk Sceptile Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 92-110 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 17.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 181-214 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Beedrill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 122-144 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 258-304 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 129-153 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 124-146 (39.7 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 158-188 (52.4 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 238-280 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 236-278 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 134-162 (48.3 - 58.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

So yeah, it gained some new targets in addition to the old ones.
 
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Something I've been trying out recently is Tornadus-I. Basically Tailwind Hyper Offense with triple Genies and who else than Greninja. Stall seems to be struggling a lot with the new improved Greninja and I haven't seen it much at all. Even if they can handle Greninja there's still Landorus who breaks Stall easily. Offense on the other hand is everywhere with the new mega's and everything, and Tailwind is almost like a win condition in offense vs offense matchups.

But aside from Tailwind Tornadus-I is actually good. Hurricane spam works like a charm, and with everyone using Ferrothorn or Skarmory as their Steel-type you can easily knock those out with Heat Wave. He also has a really nice speed tier (faster than the Latis), gets U-turn, Knock Off and Prankster on Tailwind. For some reason it's been really underrated but I feel like it works really well in the current metagame, now that Rotom-W isn't as common as it was in the early stage of XY.
 
Wargreymon said:
You should really be running zen headbutt for mega gross. It has no business trying to take on talonflame and zard x considering rock slide can't come close to OHKO'ing zard x and it just OHKO's with flare blitz, and with any prior damage to your gross talon outspeeds and OHKO's with a banded flare blitz if you haven't boosted yet. (43% chance to OHKO at full HP).
With zen headbutt you get a powerful stab for mega venu, keldeo, rotom-w, and a ton of other stuff.
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Termy forces a ton of switches, I set up an Agility as they switch for T-Flame, next turn I out speed and destroy it with rock slide, I might go with your suggestion if I need something for Mega Venusaur.
 
I am really enjoying rhyperior in this meta.

The amount of stuff he is actually stoping cold is just glorious.

Dugtrio, magnezone and gothitele are really on the rise at the moment.
 
Please refrain from discussion about banning Pokemon or potential suspects, it derails the discussion and this thread is not the place for this. Thank you!
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
They cover similar things like MegaCross and mega medicham which was one of main reasons to use doublade.
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Ah, so you're using mega alteria instead of doublade. That makes sense. Alteria is indeed looking to be a major threat in defensive and balanced teams, it just does so much! It's like heatran except without the annoying 4X weakness!
 
master_marshmallow said:
I'm finding a strong core in Sceptile, Greninja, and Talonflame. Between those three, almost all bases are covered.

Sceptile @Sceptilite
Ability: lightning rod
Timid Nature
EVs: 252 speed, 252 special attack, 4 HP
Energy Ball
Focus Blast
Dragon Pulse
Substitute/ Synthesis

It's a pretty standard set, Syntheses is there like Roost is on Char Y. Giga Drain may work better with subs, but the lack of PP is dangerous for a primary STAB move.

Greninja Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Naive Nature
EVs: 252 speed, 240 special attack, 16 attack
Hydro Pump
Dark Pulse
Gunk Shot
Ice Beam

The EVs might switch around a bit, but thus is IMO the best ninja set. Dark Pulse is important because Gross and Bro will be everywhere, not to mention other psychics and ghosts like Lati@s, and Gengar. Ice coverage is more important than any other kind of coverage in ninja's move pool because dragons are everywhere, otherwise I say go with Extrasensory or HP fire.

Talonflame @Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 attack, 60 speed, 196 HP
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Roost
Steel Wing/ U-Turn/ Swords Dance

The item here is optional, I prefer the added bulk from the berry because it lets me get in another attack and possibly a KO before I have to roost, I also hate band on this guy. Steel Wing gives neat coverage on fairy types, but is otherwise useless, turn is pretty good on this guy, and Swords Dance can be used if the rest of your team has great coverage.
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252+ Atk Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 65.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- 75% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 84-100 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 53-63 (13.1 - 15.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 432-510 (153.7 - 181.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 170-200 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Steel wing helps when?

Um your speed benchmark is jolly excadrill outside of sand? That's great but it means your roost and U-turns are gonna be outspeed quite often. Drop the 4 hp on sceptile and put it on a def cause it gives it an odd HP number making subs and entry hazard damage do extra. Also energy ball has more PP yay... You have dragon pulse as a secondary stab don't forget use either giga for recovery or Leaf Storm for power.
 
^Just a quick nitpick, but in the case of Sceptile, moving those 4 EVs from HP to Def or SpD won't actually reduce hazard or Substitute damage. Sceptile's HP stat with 4 EVs is 282, which is not divisible by 4, so it'll be taking the same damage from entry hazards and Substitute regardless.
 
Just wanted to pop in quickly to give my thoughts on Metagross. I feel like this guy is honestly one of the best megas in the current meta (obv excluding sal, fucking asswipe broken fuck stupid piece of shit), boosted speed to outspeed and ko keldeo/terrakion and tie with the latis, massive boost in bulk lets it actually switch in on moves, unlike many other new megas, who require free switches to do shit. The combination of improved bulk, speed and its cool defensive typing gives it plenty of opportunities to wreak havok on offensive teams. Unfortunately though, Ferrothorn and Skarm wall it to hell and back and bc of the prevalence of shed shell, even using zone isnt the most reliable way of beating them. Speaking of Zone and trappers in general, it is fucked up how much they have surged in popularity recently, every second team has either zone, duggie, wobb, goth or even a combination of them but considering the amount of new megas walled by steel types it's not surpising that theres a sudden increase in popularity, though it will probably die down as the meta dies down and new counters are discovered.
 
I just wanted to talk to you guys about our lord and saviour Porygon 2. Its always been one of my favorite bulky mons because I dont think it knows how to die(they must have forgot how to program it). I could show you countless calcs of him switching in to the tiers harders hitters on both the special and physical side, actually I think I will. Here is the set im using ( I think its from Joey I forget tho)

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Toxic

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 165-195 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 139-165 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 93-111 (24.8 - 29.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock(Mega Salamence)
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 135-160 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 187-222 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(this does alot, but cmon)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 246-290 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Anyway the trend is that if its not SE its going to be a 3hko, if it is SE then itll still probably be a 2hko meaning if something switches into p2 and gets hit with a toxic, they are going to die because p can recover off almost any hits barring mega medichams HJK. I also didnt show any greninja calcs, because I was only showing hard hitting calcs, greninja isnt even an issue for your team if you have p2, hydro pump only does a little over 30% THATS INSANE, not to mention you get protean when you switch into greninja and can procedd to wreck his whole team. I have an example of this:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-180621699 (just watch first 10 turns)

This game shows how p2 plays in most games, since most teams dont have just 6 hard hitters, in most cases p2 is my win condition, because I look at my opponents team and usually the best he could do is 3hko me, which means he cant kill p2, and obviously keep an eye out for status. But as you could see from the game it handles ALL special attackers(barring chary but who uses that anymore) and easily tanked a +2 knock off from bisharp. If I had one complaint it would be that it doesnt like mega latias who can just sub calm mind its way to victory, but hey, he cant do everything. So yeah try him out guys you wont regret it.

Edit: Amazing game where Porygon 2 takes full advantage of greninja, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-180698413
Seriously, if you have p2 it is almost a disadvantage for your opponent to have greninja.

Here is porygon 2 on a pretty high ladder match trapping magnezone lol I didnt even know what was happening for a while
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-182422500
but once again p2 won me that game Firebird101
 
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