0 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor in Sun: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Not good. Max HP & Def Giratina-O with Earth Power/Draco Meteor and Arceus-Ground seem good check for me.
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Gen 6 Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire Mega Evo discussion
- Thread starter Theorymon
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0 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor in Sun: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Not good. Max HP & Def Giratina-O with Earth Power/Draco Meteor and Arceus-Ground seem good check for me.
Don't overestimate Gliscor's bulk - Primal Groudon is still strong enough to really dent it
80 SAtk PDon Overheat vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 77%-91%
252+ Atk PDon Fire Punch vs 252/0 Gliscor: 60%-71%
252+ SAtk PDon Fire Blast vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 80%-94%
0 Atk Gliscor EQ vs 0/0 PDon: 40%-48%
You're going to need a lot more bulk.
I guess you can check defensive variants to an extent, but it's not going to be fun roosting on Precipice Blades.
80 SAtk PDon Overheat vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 77%-91%
252+ Atk PDon Fire Punch vs 252/0 Gliscor: 60%-71%
252+ SAtk PDon Fire Blast vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 80%-94%
0 Atk Gliscor EQ vs 0/0 PDon: 40%-48%
You're going to need a lot more bulk.
I guess you can check defensive variants to an extent, but it's not going to be fun roosting on Precipice Blades.
Ok so I was dicking around with EV spreads on Showdown for Mega Metagross, as from playtesting I really haven't seen it be extremely effective in taking out things between the 100 Speed tier up till Mega Ray's benchmark (115), so I just said fug it and decided to make this dumb spread for MegaGross:
Metagross@Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Meteor Mash
Basically this spread lets Metagross always live a hit from any coverage move that +2 Xern has to offer even under SR:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Metagross(Base 110 SpD from Mega stats): 266-314 (79.4 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This allows MegaGross to essentially RK Xern with Meteor Mash if not behind a sub (BP+Meteor takes care of Xerns behind subs). It also allows it to take hits better from boosted MegaRay and Megamence (non-SD variants from the former). 120 Speed with a Jolly nature lets MegaGross outspeed positive base 90's and neutral base 99's, as it cant really do much to Palkia or Support Arc formes anyways. This is most likely the best overall coverage options that MegaGross has while being able to check Xern when needed, but Ice Punch can be interchangeable for things such as Rock Slide, Grass Knot(2HKOs min HP Ogre after SR, misses out on PrimalOgre), and even Magnet Rise if you really, really want to annoy PDon (unless its a Fire Blast variant, in which your life is short-lived). This might not be the best set out there, but it's just an extra option for Metagross to have in order to soft check certain things better.
Also, even though this is the Mega thread, Lugia has pretty much gotten better this gen, it walls a ton of physical threats and can take on PDon without rocks up which is nice. I think Ice Beam may come back on Lugia, as it hits Megamence hard and can do a lot of damage to MegaRay after it uses Dragon Ascent, though it makes it more vulnerable to MegaGar.
Metagross@Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Meteor Mash
Basically this spread lets Metagross always live a hit from any coverage move that +2 Xern has to offer even under SR:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Metagross(Base 110 SpD from Mega stats): 266-314 (79.4 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This allows MegaGross to essentially RK Xern with Meteor Mash if not behind a sub (BP+Meteor takes care of Xerns behind subs). It also allows it to take hits better from boosted MegaRay and Megamence (non-SD variants from the former). 120 Speed with a Jolly nature lets MegaGross outspeed positive base 90's and neutral base 99's, as it cant really do much to Palkia or Support Arc formes anyways. This is most likely the best overall coverage options that MegaGross has while being able to check Xern when needed, but Ice Punch can be interchangeable for things such as Rock Slide, Grass Knot(2HKOs min HP Ogre after SR, misses out on PrimalOgre), and even Magnet Rise if you really, really want to annoy PDon (unless its a Fire Blast variant, in which your life is short-lived). This might not be the best set out there, but it's just an extra option for Metagross to have in order to soft check certain things better.
Also, even though this is the Mega thread, Lugia has pretty much gotten better this gen, it walls a ton of physical threats and can take on PDon without rocks up which is nice. I think Ice Beam may come back on Lugia, as it hits Megamence hard and can do a lot of damage to MegaRay after it uses Dragon Ascent, though it makes it more vulnerable to MegaGar.
Diancie seems like a legit defensive threat in ORAS, as it's one of the best checks to Mega Rayquaza, Rayquaza, and Mega Salamence, all huge offensive threats. Diancie also got Heal Bell in ORAS, making a RestTalk set with Heal Bell and Rock Slide / Diamond Storm / Moonblast a viable option, and the only cleric that is not complete set up bait for Mega Gengar, as Rock Slide 3HKOes and Diamond Storm 2HKOes it. Furthermore, Diancie is a flawless counter to Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Mega Blaziken, EQ-less Mega Kangaskhan, and Yveltal, as well as a good check to Mega Mewtwo X and Darkrai, and has very useful supporting options in Stealth Rock and Heal Bell, while also being able to beat most Defog Arceus with Toxic, while not caring about status itself thanks to Heal Bell.
However, lack of reliable recovery is a huge problem, and to make things worse, Diancie has bad synergy with clerics, because they are all Fairy-types, outside of Shed Shell Blissey, which is an option i guess. Still though, RestTalk + Heal Bell is pretty reliable imo, so i think that Diancie has the tools it needs to be a successful defensive threat in Ubers.
However, lack of reliable recovery is a huge problem, and to make things worse, Diancie has bad synergy with clerics, because they are all Fairy-types, outside of Shed Shell Blissey, which is an option i guess. Still though, RestTalk + Heal Bell is pretty reliable imo, so i think that Diancie has the tools it needs to be a successful defensive threat in Ubers.
Diancie's pretty cool but I feel like you are overselling its solidness as a counter. In my opinion, I'm seeing Ray and Mence running Ground / Flying / Fire coverage and Ho-Oh is very capable of running EQ as well, meaning its not exactly a "flawless" counter.
252 Atk Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 128-152 (42.1 - 50%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 128-152 (42.1 - 50%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I do think Diancie will see increased usage, I just don't think it will be that phenomenal.
I haven't really talked much in this thread here, but honestly there are a lot of insane new threats being introduced. Primal Groudon, Mega Ray, and Mega Mence all scream out at me as they are all offensive monsters, and Mence and Ray are really pushing up the speed tier. I legitimately am convinced that stall will be about 95% dead, as physical spam teams will just smash through most stall. Not much really consistently beats all Primal Groudon sets, as Gliscor/Lando lose to Fire Blast, Gira-O loses to Dragon coverage, etc. and Mega Ray and Mence running the aforementioned Ground / Flying / Fire coverage beats most stuff, its legitimately difficult to find things that beat their SD and DD sets, and honestly you're eating up so many slots just to check three mons and stall ends up struggling.
I think that offense receives a huge buff, and that's what we're going to see in this meta. A lot of it.
In terms of some dark horses I think have potential despite being overshadowed a bit, Altaria looks pretty cool as a check for Zekrom, Palkia, Yveltal (I'd have to double check calcs). It's got a really cool typing that I think will benefit it, but as with a lot of these Megas, the cost of not being able to run Mence or Ray is tough. Swampert would have been cool if weather mechanics were the same as XY, but they're not so RIP. Sceptile's speed tier is very nice I guess. Slowbro is very bulky, but a lack of offensive presence hampers its effectiveness at full stopping all of the major threats, as many just set up and overwhelm it.
Quick thoughts on Stall for ORAS:
- Lugia is pretty much required, you need it to stand up to physical offense spam teams. It's a very good check to Mega Mence and non-SD Primal Groudon/Mega Ray (it can phaze SD if it has Multiscale). Lugia will probably want to revert back to more Gen 4 esque sets (i.e. Ice Beam/Reflect will be good again). Skarm can kind of work too but it gets smashed by Fire attacks so you'll need a backup plan like Giratina-O or something.
- 252+ Speed support Arceus to help handle SD Mega Ray (Lugia is not beating that) is also something you will probably want/need. Fairy and Ghost are probably the best types for Stall, though Rock/Ground may also be able to work - Rock can help vs Flyspam while Ground beats up Primal Groudon pretty nicely.
- In general Stall will probably shift to being more about physical bulk - most current stalls emphasize special bulk because Ubers has traditionally been a largely specially oriented metagame. I could see Stall teams stacking physical checks with a couple catch-all special tanks like Blissey, SDef Fairies, Ho-Oh, SDef Kyogre and the like. Mons that can do both like Arceus formes and Lugia will be pretty valuable.
- Primal Groudon checks tons of crap, use it.
- Mega Slowbro has tons of bulk and gets stuff like Foul Play/Counter, might be worthwhile. Still not beating SD PGroudon though.
- If Shadow Tag doesn't get banned then stall will probably die for realsies, trying to handle stuff like PGroudon and Mega Ray backed up by MGar/Goth/Wobb is asking for far too much. We'll see how it plays out but it's not looking good for stall atm.
Eviolite Rhydon new meta
Rhyperior can actually work sometimes, better than Rhydon. Solid rock and lefties help a lot and more attack. It roars out salamence, physical rayquaza, ho-oh, sd arceus and beats blaziken one vs one. I think Rhyperior has a better chance to shine with kyogre being easier to check and more bird spam.
Mega Slowbro looks fun to use but you cant let it get statused or something like burn forces you to slack off too often. Resttalk sucks you need the coverage to beat things in Ubers, no time for some MonoRestTalk. Losing regenerator sucks :( i would go for like 248HP /56 Def /204 SpA cause you should just run when you see something like Palkia or Cm ghostceus lol. The point of more SpA is you whack them harder than they think as they come in. Base 130 SpA scalds, Grass knots , shadow ball, psychic and fire blasts damn. Great coverage. Ice beam is needed when you want to ohko mence and normal ray.
Mega Altaria might have a small niche in stall teams to check Zekrom and Palkia. Also beats Salamence and rayquaza one vs one, will likely be a popular scenario. Disappointed with mega steelix, just a non filter mega aggron with stab EQ and gryo ball.
all hail the rise of Avalugg. Screw mence and no Vcreate rayquaza. Gyarados can tank stone edgeless groudon and toxic or roar it out. Gliscor/landorus just dies to fire blast.
Mega Slowbro looks fun to use but you cant let it get statused or something like burn forces you to slack off too often. Resttalk sucks you need the coverage to beat things in Ubers, no time for some MonoRestTalk. Losing regenerator sucks :( i would go for like 248HP /56 Def /204 SpA cause you should just run when you see something like Palkia or Cm ghostceus lol. The point of more SpA is you whack them harder than they think as they come in. Base 130 SpA scalds, Grass knots , shadow ball, psychic and fire blasts damn. Great coverage. Ice beam is needed when you want to ohko mence and normal ray.
Mega Altaria might have a small niche in stall teams to check Zekrom and Palkia. Also beats Salamence and rayquaza one vs one, will likely be a popular scenario. Disappointed with mega steelix, just a non filter mega aggron with stab EQ and gryo ball.
all hail the rise of Avalugg. Screw mence and no Vcreate rayquaza. Gyarados can tank stone edgeless groudon and toxic or roar it out. Gliscor/landorus just dies to fire blast.
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Personally I wouldn't count stall out just yet. So far, it works just fine with S-tag around. Thing is that for every new gen/new games that have come out that I've been around for, people have been theorymoning the demise of stall in one way or another and it has always survived. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be careful of writing stall off until we've given the metagame time to settle when it has survived every attempt to uproot it so far.
While HO will be initially popular, I think stall will still thrive. This is due to the fact that there is a single Pokemon (Lugia) that can serve as a general check to all 3 of the new primary offensive threats (Mence/PDon/Ray), so teambuilding won't be a huge hassle. Furthermore, PDon offers a lot of defensive capabilities, checking dangerous things like Specsogre, Ho-Oh, Stalltwo, and Xerneas (may not have the moveslot to handle all of those at the same time though).
Also, with PDon around, Ho-Oh will have teamslot competition. And Desolate Land means no more permanent sun so Ho-Oh cant shred through stall as easily anymore. Add in Primal Kyogre and Ho-Oh will have even less opportunities to Sacred Fire things. That's one less stall hindrance down.
I agree with shrang and I don't see stall dying even with shadow tag around. Wobbuffet is mediocre vs stall in general (though better this gen due to better hazard removal), Mega Gengar is threatening but takes up a mega slot so you dont get mega mence / ray (unless Ray's mega doesn't take a slot) so PDon would be the only new real threat that can combo with it, and Goth could be annoying but the CM set shouldnt be too difficult (even if it means having to run Shed SHell Bliss) to get past.
From a theoretical perspective I've had issues handling SD + 3 Attacks Primal Groudon when building stall. Now with more power than ever, I might need a combination of POgre/Tina-O/Lugia to shut it down. Judgment Groundceus and fast Foul Play Yveltal are other options I've considered, although the latter feels a tad gimmicky.
In the future I can see stall branching out of Lugia once the metagame settles down and our threats become more clearly defined (both offensively and defensively). Lugia just happens to be very safe against a wide variety of attackers and is difficult to cheese with direct damage (unlike Skarmory), but it still runs into the issue of just sitting there and not posing a real threat
Rhyperior/Mega Aggron/Phys Def Mega TTar/Mega Metagross/Phys Def Dialga/maybe Steelix are some alternative anti Ray/Mence options that haven't really been explored but could very well work. This is all theoretical, of course
Also, with PDon around, Ho-Oh will have teamslot competition. And Desolate Land means no more permanent sun so Ho-Oh cant shred through stall as easily anymore. Add in Primal Kyogre and Ho-Oh will have even less opportunities to Sacred Fire things. That's one less stall hindrance down.
I agree with shrang and I don't see stall dying even with shadow tag around. Wobbuffet is mediocre vs stall in general (though better this gen due to better hazard removal), Mega Gengar is threatening but takes up a mega slot so you dont get mega mence / ray (unless Ray's mega doesn't take a slot) so PDon would be the only new real threat that can combo with it, and Goth could be annoying but the CM set shouldnt be too difficult (even if it means having to run Shed SHell Bliss) to get past.
From a theoretical perspective I've had issues handling SD + 3 Attacks Primal Groudon when building stall. Now with more power than ever, I might need a combination of POgre/Tina-O/Lugia to shut it down. Judgment Groundceus and fast Foul Play Yveltal are other options I've considered, although the latter feels a tad gimmicky.
In the future I can see stall branching out of Lugia once the metagame settles down and our threats become more clearly defined (both offensively and defensively). Lugia just happens to be very safe against a wide variety of attackers and is difficult to cheese with direct damage (unlike Skarmory), but it still runs into the issue of just sitting there and not posing a real threat
Rhyperior/Mega Aggron/Phys Def Mega TTar/Mega Metagross/Phys Def Dialga/maybe Steelix are some alternative anti Ray/Mence options that haven't really been explored but could very well work. This is all theoretical, of course
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With SR up and mega mence and mega ray both being faster than lugia, im not sure how much lugia would enjoy taking a +2 hit before it can put up a reflect.
Although I still waiting for the day lugia gets to mega evolve and get magic bounce. Only then will it become a threat
Mega Mence will fall to Lugia's Ice Beam pretty easily and will not OHKO with +1 Double Edge. Mega Ray will be more difficult and may require Multiscale up. You'll want to combine Lugia with a fast support arceus to punish SD variants. Lugia can do decently well vs DD
PDonner, however, may be extremely difficult to wall if it decides to run toxic as a move, taking into account the lack of Sub on Lugia nowadays, as well as the fact that most Clerics do not want to fight PDonner. In other words, Taking PDonner out will probably require Groundceus or magic coat Gira-O reflecting Toxic.
metas hasn't even started yet, maybe people will run fast lugias with sub anyway its was the best lugia set.
Lugia needs to run roost. It probably will start running reflect too to deal with the new physical threats. People have stated also that lugia may run ice beam too. So unless you want to forgo phazing (one of the primary functions for lugia) than yes, you will have room for sub.
did you really just tell me lugia needs to run roost, no duh genius. yeah its either reflect or sub, sub prevents status and reflect gives more bulk while supporting the team. And hint hint it was the best set, things change. Not like ice beam is gonna actually touch pdonner so you need dragon tail, and it'll probably barely 2HKO mega-ray at that.
meh, you could definitely run a lot more things other than sub/reflect. i still think ice beam is the best attacking move for lugia, i'd also rather use whirlwind > dragon tail because fuck missing + xerneas. i also don't think oras will be as hyper-offensive as everyone thinks, so a dual status (twave + toxic) set could also be nice. that being said, the only moves that i really see as mandatory on lugia are roost and whirlwind
Ya Loogie's Ice Beam 3HKOs MegaRay but it turns into a 2HKO after a single Dragon Ascent so it has its uses against Ray+Mence so whoopie. Whirlwind+Toxic lets it tango with non-SD PDon variants, and imo PDon will probably not carry Toxic unless it's a Toxic+3 Attacks set as it gets hard-walled by Skarm+Zong and it practically has to use Toxic on MegaRay in order for it to not become complete setup fodder. I've been using SR+3 Attacks for PDon and it's been very effective so far (probably the most common set for team glue but ppl will probably use RP or SD Don anyways), though I have seen some people use EdgePrecipice with SR+ setup move and it seems very interesting as a whole (but pray to the hax gods that you won't miss), so I think PDon will have multiple sets to use once ORAS comes out.
I've yet to use SR PDon, actually. The set I've used the most is 3 attacks + TWave to help check Xerneas. Also, PDon can run DClaw (and imo should) so it's not complete Ray fodder - it can also hit Gira-O, which may be a common switch-in to PDon. But I do agree that PDon will most likely have many different sets in ORAS.
Not even Lugia is safe:
Salamence (M) @ Salamencite
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Giga Impact
- Frustration/Double Edge/Thrash
Basically DD up and begin to tear holes and if something like Lugia (or really bulky thing) comes in hit it with a +1 Giga Impact OHKOing it after Stealth Rock no matter what. Pairs well with RP/SD Primal Groudon. Deoxys-S also makes a great partner with these two providing SR and Spikes support.
That being said Mega Slowbro is looking like the best answer to most of these threats as it can take anything from PGroudon, Mega Mence and Mega Rayquaza without DM and hit them back with a nice Foul Play. Also a great answer to SD Arceus and other physical attackers.
There is no doubt that p-don will have many, many sets when it comes out. It can use pretty much every single one of old don's sets just as effectively as he used to (which are not small in number), and gets one or two new ones as well (for example, special attacker might actually work now). I wonder how well a dtail shuffler set would work. It hits a lot of things that it normally struggles with like mence and ray, is hard-ish to swap into because of the phasing mechanic, and will inflict a fair bit of damage with dat atk stat.
Been playing a lot of ORAS Ubers lately and Primal Groudon is without a doubt the best of the weather trio. It's hilariously easy to set up an RP and sweep late game Fire Punch and Precipe Blades hits hard as hell coming from base 180 attack. Some thoughts on Mega Salamence, it's kind of hard to set up with it but once it does it just blows through teams. Tested out Double Edge and it's just a horrible move to use on Mega Salamence, you get worn down way too quickly. Don't use it. If you want more power than Return use Thrash.
A problem with using Thrash is that it makes Mence that much easier to check. Say you use Thrash to kill the opponent's Xerneas, all he has to do is go to Dialga/RockCeus and kill you, where they'd usually die to EQ. That being said, I do agree that Double-Edge isn't the best option.
Still better than Double Edge. Return is the best out of the three though. You can actually use both Return and Trash with EQ coverage. I have found that it's difficult to use Roost anyway atleast on the max speed max attack set.
I've yet to use Roost on Mence, so I can't say much about it. I've used Refresh almost exclusively in the 4th spot - Facade could also be used along-side Return, as well. For the main STAB I'd say Return > Double-Edge > Thrash, though.
The problem with Return is that overall Megamence does less damage than Mega Ray's Dragon Ascent, so Double-Edge or Thrash is essentially a given or Mence gets outclassed in the power department.
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