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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Mences rank should be changed to something beyond S temporarily. As it stands, S rank is reserved for mons that are really good in the meta but mence is a step beyond this, either everything in S drops (which a few need to anyway) or Salamence is bumped to something skin to Snorlax's rank in GSC. On phone atm so ill probably make a few noms later.
Azumarrill A+---->A It Is no longer the ultimate glue pokemon. Geninja now destroys it with Gunk shot and several of the new threats just muscle past it.
Garchomp A+ -----> A It has poor match ups vs many of the new megas and the general speed creep hasn't done it any favors.
Thundurus A+ -----> S Priority Thunder Wave is too good in this meta and it's speed tier is amazing vs all these new megas. It's probably the best mon in the meta besides Mence/Greninja.
Also I feel like the S in S rank should stand for Salamence.
Garchomp A+ -----> A It has poor match ups vs many of the new megas and the general speed creep hasn't done it any favors.
Thundurus A+ -----> S Priority Thunder Wave is too good in this meta and it's speed tier is amazing vs all these new megas. It's probably the best mon in the meta besides Mence/Greninja.
Also I feel like the S in S rank should stand for Salamence.
I think you are misunderstanding the reason behind Azumarill's placement in A+. Sure, it cannot beat things like Beedrill, Salamence, etc., but it still incredibly valuable for offensive teams, checking Keldeo, Latias, Charizard, and more, so you do not get ran over by them. Granted, it gets worn down very easily, but it is still really good against offense, and while it has issues with some of the new Pokemon, and can lose to Greninja, it is still really good at checking half the meta in one team slot.
I agree with Garchomp to A, dropping it is long overdue I leave no comment on Thundurus.
Don't really see how hitting Talonflame out of all Pokemon really matters for two Pokemon who are supposed to wallbreak. Also the Tyranitar calcs lol... Gardevoir also runs Focus Blast to achieve the OHKO on Tyranitar. Gardevoir requires less support because it's not SR weak, doesn't need Pursuit, and breaks Chansey by iteslf. Gardevoir is definetely better in this meta imo and these calcs don't really tell me otherwise.
Its an excellent win condition for stall teams as well as reversing g status moved (which are commonly seen on stall teams)
M-Altaria survives a 2HKO from even Specs Icy Wind Keldeo even if it isn't built to be specially defensive, and can OHKO in return with Return/ Facade/ Hyper Voice.
A+->S
I'm kind of agreeing with Albacore here, this thing is pretty amazing imo. The amount of sets this thing can run in conjunction with the small amount of answers to this thing is completely ludicrous. Yes, SD is terrifying, but Gallade has such an expansive movepool that lets it do a lot more than just sweeping. WoW+Taunt, TWave, DBond+3 Attaks, Encore, SubSD, and SubBU are just a couple of examples of what Gallade can do, changing up what can deal with it and what can't. It kinda reminds me of MegaLop except with sometimes 1 free moveslot or in some cases 2 if SD isn't your biggest concern, which gives it a lot more room to tinker with on a teamslot than most of the other Megas can. It has a relatively easy time with offense and some variants of stall, and its bulk allows it to take at least 1-2 relatively powerful hits (LO Gren HPump only 2HKOs) while proceeding to OHKO back. The only main things I can see from M-Gallade from being S are that MegaMence slaughters it and that Mega Sableye is a pretty hard stop to it, which is concerning as from where I see it most stall teams will run Mega Sableye since its such as good hazard controller/CM win condition (though DBond variants of Gallade can possibly defeat it, the trade may or may not be worth it in some cases). Other than that, I really do think Mega Gallade should move up to S Rank.
Along with the reasons mentioned above by Unuhexium and Ohioisonfire, Mega Sableye is extremely useful against hazard stacking (which can be a pain for stall) by loling over Excadrill and Starmie, the 2 main offensive Spinners in the tier, and can check a lot of the new Megas and other physical threats (Mega Gallade, MegaGross (252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO hot damn) etc.). Having Prankster pre-evo allows it to rampage on most offensive teams with WoW as well. It's typing, bulk and Magic Bounce will most likely make it a prime mega on Stall other than Slowbro and is also a decent option on some offense teams.
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Alrighty then, time for some nominations.
Mega Metagross for S-Rank
This is something I have always thought needs to happen. Megagross is an absolute monster capable of so much more compared to other Megas. It has the perfect speed to do what it wants, 110 outspeeds Keldeo, Terrakion, the Base 100 club and everything in between, being able to KO many of them outright. It's improved bulk lets it come in on a shitton of threats, unlike other megas, who require a free switch to be effective and it poses a huge threat any time it comes in. It completely stops the Lati twins (Even a HP Fire or EQ cannot 2hko) while posing a huge threat to all of Offense, Balance and Stall. A+ is being far too modest for this monster.
Chesnaught for B+/A-(If im promoting for A- I can talk about it riiight?)
Chesnaught is really fucking good atm, and I mean really. This thing is a much needed defensive Grass type not named Ferrothorn, who has to play cautiously now due to the extreme surge of trappers, forcing it to do a less effective job than it should. Bulletproof is also neat, letting it come in on plenty of Balls, eating them up (pun intended). It's also a hard counter to Ferrothorn, Rotom-W and Azumarill if you use the set by Srn, Who we all know creams his pants over Chesnaught, though it is justified. I feel as though there is so much more that Chesnaught is able to do thanks to some small moveset revisions, Drain Punch is really key in boosting longevity, and the big meta shifts.
+
Mega-Sableye to A
This thing always makes me shit my pants when I see it. The CM set absolutely demolishes offensive teams thanks to priority wisp stopping would-be checks seeking to target it's unboosted physical side. It's also an amazing spinblocker for Stall, who have adapted well to the new meta, might as well quote Jukain here as he knows far more about it than I do about this monster.
Mega Metagross for S-Rank
This is something I have always thought needs to happen. Megagross is an absolute monster capable of so much more compared to other Megas. It has the perfect speed to do what it wants, 110 outspeeds Keldeo, Terrakion, the Base 100 club and everything in between, being able to KO many of them outright. It's improved bulk lets it come in on a shitton of threats, unlike other megas, who require a free switch to be effective and it poses a huge threat any time it comes in. It completely stops the Lati twins (Even a HP Fire or EQ cannot 2hko) while posing a huge threat to all of Offense, Balance and Stall. A+ is being far too modest for this monster.
Chesnaught for B+/A-(If im promoting for A- I can talk about it riiight?)
Chesnaught is really fucking good atm, and I mean really. This thing is a much needed defensive Grass type not named Ferrothorn, who has to play cautiously now due to the extreme surge of trappers, forcing it to do a less effective job than it should. Bulletproof is also neat, letting it come in on plenty of Balls, eating them up (pun intended). It's also a hard counter to Ferrothorn, Rotom-W and Azumarill if you use the set by Srn, Who we all know creams his pants over Chesnaught, though it is justified. I feel as though there is so much more that Chesnaught is able to do thanks to some small moveset revisions, Drain Punch is really key in boosting longevity, and the big meta shifts.
Mega-Sableye to A
This thing always makes me shit my pants when I see it. The CM set absolutely demolishes offensive teams thanks to priority wisp stopping would-be checks seeking to target it's unboosted physical side. It's also an amazing spinblocker for Stall, who have adapted well to the new meta, might as well quote Jukain here as he knows far more about it than I do about this monster.
As it stands, until the meta dies down and people start using mons like CharX to beat, Sableye has a field day with unprepared teams, which there are a lot of so I feel A is a better fit compared to A-. Even in a more adapted meta, Sableye would still be a really good mon and a huge threat.Wanted to bring up this lord.
Sableye @ Sableite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
Recently I've been experimenting with a bunch of different things, some good and some bad, and Mega Sableye is definitely one of those good things. CM Wisp Mega Sableye just straight up takes souls. Unfortunately I don't have any replays of any really recent version of my Mega Sableye stall, but it puts in work. The thing Mega Sableye does is offer stall teams pressure, flexibility, and control of the hazard game. Mega Sableye beats pretty much all of the tier's Stealth Rock users besides SR Landorus-I, which is rare anyways, and Heatran, which can be dealt with by Tentacruel (an excellent partner for synergetic reasons, mostly taking on Fairies). I'm talking things like Mamoswine, Garchomp, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Chansey, etc., all these common SR setters. It also means that it's difficult to pressure stall with something like Spikes Ferrothorn, as Sableye just comes in for free. It also spinblocks, which is pretty big for maintaining your own hazards in terms of the sand matchup.
Besides controlling the hazard game when Mega Evolved, Mega Sableye can also put in a lot of work as just normal Sableye, spreading Prankster Will-O-Wisp and in many cases just outright demolishing offensive and balanced teams. And that's another place Mega Sableye shines: sweeping. Usually, against more offensive teams, you don't evolve it right off the bat and instead run around spreading Will-O-Wisps and maybe firing off a Shadow Ball or too, applying pressure to the opposing team and weakening down threats to the point where all of Mega Sableye's answers are worn out by late-game. On my team I pair this with a full array of hazards to amplify this pressure and really allow Mega Sableye to shine. Once this pressure has taken its toll, you can Mega Evolve Sableye, potentially, and set up to sweep. Sometimes, this can even be done early-game, as a huge amount of teams don't really account for Mega Sableye (particularly on the offensive end of the spectrum, as high physical bulk + Wisp and respectable special bulk + CM boosts combined can make it really hard to break.
Mega Sableye is benefitting from a few metagame trends at the moment as well. Mega Charizard X is currently pretty uncommon, as it to be expected with of course Mega Salamence, but also Mega Altaria, which I consider better than it on the whole for sure. Also, Clefable is being used significantly less with its inability to counter Greninja, and even then non-CM variants lose to Mega Sableye if they switch into Calm Mind or even 1v1 if Sableye hasn't evolved yet (far from uncommon).252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 116-140 (38.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So yeah, Mega Sableye is really good. It completely and utterly rips apart so many teams atm. I'd post replays, but I really don't save them so I don't have any good ones around. However, I've seen marked success with it dismantling ridiculous offensive and defensive cores alike in this metagame.
A+->S
I'm kind of agreeing with Albacore here, this thing is pretty amazing imo. The amount of sets this thing can run in conjunction with the small amount of answers to this thing is completely ludicrous. Yes, SD is terrifying, but Gallade has such an expansive movepool that lets it do a lot more than just sweeping. WoW+Taunt, TWave, DBond+3 Attaks, Encore, SubSD, and SubBU are just a couple of examples of what Gallade can do, changing up what can deal with it and what can't. It kinda reminds me of MegaLop except with sometimes 1 free moveslot or in some cases 2 if SD isn't your biggest concern, which gives it a lot more room to tinker with on a teamslot than most of the other Megas can. It has a relatively easy time with offense and some variants of stall, and its bulk allows it to take at least 1-2 relatively powerful hits (LO Gren HPump only 2HKOs) while proceeding to OHKO back. The only main things I can see from M-Gallade from being S are that MegaMence slaughters it and that Mega Sableye is a pretty hard stop to it, which is concerning as from where I see it most stall teams will run Mega Sableye since its such as good hazard controller/CM win condition (though DBond variants of Gallade can possibly defeat it, the trade may or may not be worth it in some cases). Other than that, I really do think Mega Gallade should move up to S Rank.Also I'm really, really dissapointed that Gallade didn't get Heal Bell cri
Along with the reasons mentioned above by Unuhexium and Ohioisonfire, Mega Sableye is extremely useful against hazard stacking (which can be a pain for stall) by loling over Excadrill and Starmie, the 2 main offensive Spinners in the tier, and can check a lot of the new Megas and other physical threats (Mega Gallade, MegaGross (252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO hot damn) etc.). Having Prankster pre-evo allows it to rampage on most offensive teams with WoW as well. It's typing, bulk and Magic Bounce will most likely make it a prime mega on Stall other than Slowbro and is also a decent option on some offense teams.
I kinda have to refute mega gallade for S.
The sets you've listed are pretty cool, but it really doesn't have the lastability to be doing much other than SD. lets be honest, 68/95/115 is ok but psychic/fighting typing with no recovery (drain punch is shit) really leaves this thing kinda frail. On paper 95/115 defenses look alrite but in practice this thing cannot eat too many hits. Its health should ultimately be saved to take a hit to set up, and nothing else (unless you have healing wish)
Thus, sets like wisp+taunt/t-wave/encore/subBU are kinda bad. The only real variants that oughta see use are SD+3 attacks and Sub/Taunt SD.
Its matchup against offense is indeed quite nice, but there's one glaring flaw in it: its base speed. the 110 speed tier is home to potential checks, like mega gross, gallade, and lati@s, and you have to rely on speed ties to get past them. Shadow Sneak requires prior damage EVEN after a boost, so more often that not its not worth it. It usually gets a kill or two and can take a hit tho so its solid. not to mention the fact that 110 doesn't even mean much anymore with all these new megas, and with no priority mega gallade is easier to revenge kill than it seems.
Against stall, it honestly has a tough time imho solely because of how popular mega sabl is. The only form of competent stall you even see nowadays is sabl stall, and it sucks fighting your omnipresent hard counter everytime you fight stall, which is supposed to be your better matchup. I mean honsetly, if sable doesn't exist, there's god near nothing bar like unaware clefable that can take mega gallade. Thus, you really have to rely on teammates to get rid of mega sableye for gallade. Once its weakened/gone, you're set, but it requires heavy support to do that. (SD SR garchomp is a good option; u can pressure sable to come in as you SD and do 70% with an eq, so you force it out at 30% and can set rocks as its forced out, leaving it at 18% for mega gallade to just knock off.)
So basically its matchup against offense and stall are good but major have some flaws, and its not really that versatile. It should be A+
I Want to nominate pangoro from unranked to c+. It actually gotten better since it got Many moves from ORAS Move tutors. Its choice scarf set is actually pretty good at checking The various Psychic,ghost,and dark types in the tier. It also has Good utility in parting shot so it can form a psuedo u turn and cripple the pokemon. It can also run a sub punch set very efficiently. so here is the set that i used to great success
Pangoro @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
The ev's are to speedtie any neutral base 100's and a jolly nature can help it outspeed greninja and gengar.
Pangoro @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
The ev's are to speedtie any neutral base 100's and a jolly nature can help it outspeed greninja and gengar.
Please, stop. I know there are things that got better with ORAS, but it's way to early to tell if Dugtrio, Pangoro and things like that are actually decent. Such big changes should be backed up by a lot of solid evidence. Don't let the hype take over so much.
We're only discussing things currently in A+ and S rank atm, not that I disagree with what you said.Alrighty then, time for some nominations.
Mega Metagross for S-Rank
This is something I have always thought needs to happen. Megagross is an absolute monster capable of so much more compared to other Megas. It has the perfect speed to do what it wants, 110 outspeeds Keldeo, Terrakion, the Base 100 club and everything in between, being able to KO many of them outright. It's improved bulk lets it come in on a shitton of threats, unlike other megas, who require a free switch to be effective and it poses a huge threat any time it comes in. It completely stops the Lati twins (Even a HP Fire or EQ cannot 2hko) while posing a huge threat to all of Offense, Balance and Stall. A+ is being far too modest for this monster.
Chesnaught for B+/A-(If im promoting for A- I can talk about it riiight?)
Chesnaught is really fucking good atm, and I mean really. This thing is a much needed defensive Grass type not named Ferrothorn, who has to play cautiously now due to the extreme surge of trappers, forcing it to do a less effective job than it should. Bulletproof is also neat, letting it come in on plenty of Balls, eating them up (pun intended). It's also a hard counter to Ferrothorn, Rotom-W and Azumarill if you use the set by Srn, Who we all know creams his pants over Chesnaught, though it is justified. I feel as though there is so much more that Chesnaught is able to do thanks to some small moveset revisions, Drain Punch is really key in boosting longevity, and the big meta shifts.
+
Mega-Sableye to A
This thing always makes me shit my pants when I see it. The CM set absolutely demolishes offensive teams thanks to priority wisp stopping would-be checks seeking to target it's unboosted physical side. It's also an amazing spinblocker for Stall, who have adapted well to the new meta, might as well quote Jukain here as he knows far more about it than I do about this monster.
As it stands, until the meta dies down and people start using mons like CharX to beat, Sableye has a field day with unprepared teams, which there are a lot of so I feel A is a better fit compared to A-. Even in a more adapted meta, Sableye would still be a really good mon and a huge threat.
Mega-Sableye is :
- a bulky boosting sweeper (that is immune to all forms of phazing)
- a physical wall and check to like, half the tier
- a stallbreaker who pretty much completely stops anything defensive not named Clefable or Mega-Altaria
- a hazard bouncer
- a status absorber
- a spinblocker
- a priority wisper (before MEvo)
- can also ditch CM and abuse Knock Off to troll offensive and defensive mons alike
yeah the sheer amount of utility this thing provides is simply off the charts, it runs over so many teams and is borderline limiting to teambuilding in ORAS (I can't count how many teams on which I slapped a Clefable just to deal with it). A is quite honestly too low imo.
Concerning the S/A+ mons that are being discussed atm, I think XZard is probably deserving of a drop because of huge competition from MMence who basically outclasses it as a DDer, but let's not forget that the wisp set still exists and is still very good. YZard should probably drop too but I don't think it should go any lower than A, besides competition from other megas it hasn't really gotten worse per se. Mew I think deserves to drop simply because it's now setup fodder for Sableye and therefore cannot break stall anymore. MMeta can probably be S because it's quite clearly fantastic, everything else I've already stated my stance on.
- a bulky boosting sweeper (that is immune to all forms of phazing)
- a physical wall and check to like, half the tier
- a stallbreaker who pretty much completely stops anything defensive not named Clefable or Mega-Altaria
- a hazard bouncer
- a status absorber
- a spinblocker
- a priority wisper (before MEvo)
- can also ditch CM and abuse Knock Off to troll offensive and defensive mons alike
yeah the sheer amount of utility this thing provides is simply off the charts, it runs over so many teams and is borderline limiting to teambuilding in ORAS (I can't count how many teams on which I slapped a Clefable just to deal with it). A is quite honestly too low imo.
Concerning the S/A+ mons that are being discussed atm, I think XZard is probably deserving of a drop because of huge competition from MMence who basically outclasses it as a DDer, but let's not forget that the wisp set still exists and is still very good. YZard should probably drop too but I don't think it should go any lower than A, besides competition from other megas it hasn't really gotten worse per se. Mew I think deserves to drop simply because it's now setup fodder for Sableye and therefore cannot break stall anymore. MMeta can probably be S because it's quite clearly fantastic, everything else I've already stated my stance on.
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alexwolf pls forgive me for I have sinned
Fuck didnt realise that but still, Ill stand by my nominations and please keep them in consideration when new things are being discussed.
Albacore's post is really an excellent post, and I'm going to just talk briefly about some of the things he nominated.
First of all, I think I really do agree with Mega Gallade for S. When discerning the initial rankings for the Megas, I placed Mega Gallade in A+, not necessarily because I believed that it isn't suitable for S rank, but because in general I'm cautious about putting anything in S rank, aside from Mega Salamence which was pretty obviously voted S by all of us. I think I was initially wary because like most Pokemon that devastate slower, defensive or balanced teams, typically more and more defensive answers crop up over time, not niche answers, just metagame trends. I think I view Mega Gallade differently now in this regard as from laddering on the ORAS OU ladder and just simply based on its stats, typing, and coverage, it really doesn't have many possible defensive answers at all. The two that come up often are Mega Sableye and Unaware Clefable. Mega Sableye is a great Pokemon and a fantastic counter to Mega Gallade, but this already benefits Mega Gallade in that Mega Sableye is a Mega Pokemon, meaning the Mega Sableye team can't run another defensive Mega, such as Mega Altaria. Unaware Clefable is nice but it means forgoing Magic Guard and Spikes are good in this meta; Clefable can easily be taken out over the course of a match. Albacore is also correct in that Mega Gallade is great against offense, obviously it's less effective in this matchup, and I feel like it definitely takes on the standard XY offense better because it's generally slower with things like Keldeo being common and Gallade being able to take a hit from most of the faster ones. It struggles a little bit more in XY due to the faster Megas as well as Salamence of course, but I think Mega Gallade can still reach S Rank regardless.
I also agree with the push for a Mega Latias raise, a Mega Sableye raise, a Mega Altaria raise, and a Mega Beedrill raise (though not as much as some are suggesting) for the new Mega Pokemon.
I'm not quite sure on the Thundurus raise; this is sort of like the time in XY when everyone used Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, etc, the fast sweepers that killed everything, so people slapped on Thundurus to give themselves a way out. While Thundurus was S rank then, this was also largely to do with its offensive ability. Prankster Thunder Wave is obviously nice, but people will soon realise it shouldn't just be used for being the catch-all sweeper answer (it's also kind of annoying how Prankster Thunder Wave is ridiculously predictable when Thundurus comes in making it easy to play around, because no one ever uses an attacking move predicting a switch because then they risk losing). I'm not really that sure Excadrill should rise either but the fact that it was close to A+ in the first place means I'm more willing to allow this one to go through.
As for the drops of the many pre-ORAS Pokemon that are less effective, I agree with most of these. For Keldeo and Latios, they are pretty obvious considering I can't really compare them to Mega Salamence or the other S Rank Pokemon at all. Scarf Latios is more viable though which is nice. Oh, and Mega Charizard X. Azumarill and Mega Gardevoir seem pretty simple changes as well. I don't think Magnezone should rise all the way up to A+, that seems far too excessive especially considering the power creep anyway putting things like Latios in A+. RE: other trappers, Gothitelle is annoying again, and I've heard good things about Dugtrio, even though I've never used it post-ORAS. Weavile is better which makes me happy, and Hydreigon should definitely rise since its Scarf set has the right coverage to revenge all the threatening Mega Pokemon.
There are many Pokemon which could probably move around because the meta is really different, but if we focus on little parts of the ranking at a time, we can get a very accurate ranking, so heaps of discussion is encouraged
First of all, I think I really do agree with Mega Gallade for S. When discerning the initial rankings for the Megas, I placed Mega Gallade in A+, not necessarily because I believed that it isn't suitable for S rank, but because in general I'm cautious about putting anything in S rank, aside from Mega Salamence which was pretty obviously voted S by all of us. I think I was initially wary because like most Pokemon that devastate slower, defensive or balanced teams, typically more and more defensive answers crop up over time, not niche answers, just metagame trends. I think I view Mega Gallade differently now in this regard as from laddering on the ORAS OU ladder and just simply based on its stats, typing, and coverage, it really doesn't have many possible defensive answers at all. The two that come up often are Mega Sableye and Unaware Clefable. Mega Sableye is a great Pokemon and a fantastic counter to Mega Gallade, but this already benefits Mega Gallade in that Mega Sableye is a Mega Pokemon, meaning the Mega Sableye team can't run another defensive Mega, such as Mega Altaria. Unaware Clefable is nice but it means forgoing Magic Guard and Spikes are good in this meta; Clefable can easily be taken out over the course of a match. Albacore is also correct in that Mega Gallade is great against offense, obviously it's less effective in this matchup, and I feel like it definitely takes on the standard XY offense better because it's generally slower with things like Keldeo being common and Gallade being able to take a hit from most of the faster ones. It struggles a little bit more in XY due to the faster Megas as well as Salamence of course, but I think Mega Gallade can still reach S Rank regardless.
I also agree with the push for a Mega Latias raise, a Mega Sableye raise, a Mega Altaria raise, and a Mega Beedrill raise (though not as much as some are suggesting) for the new Mega Pokemon.
I'm not quite sure on the Thundurus raise; this is sort of like the time in XY when everyone used Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X, etc, the fast sweepers that killed everything, so people slapped on Thundurus to give themselves a way out. While Thundurus was S rank then, this was also largely to do with its offensive ability. Prankster Thunder Wave is obviously nice, but people will soon realise it shouldn't just be used for being the catch-all sweeper answer (it's also kind of annoying how Prankster Thunder Wave is ridiculously predictable when Thundurus comes in making it easy to play around, because no one ever uses an attacking move predicting a switch because then they risk losing). I'm not really that sure Excadrill should rise either but the fact that it was close to A+ in the first place means I'm more willing to allow this one to go through.
As for the drops of the many pre-ORAS Pokemon that are less effective, I agree with most of these. For Keldeo and Latios, they are pretty obvious considering I can't really compare them to Mega Salamence or the other S Rank Pokemon at all. Scarf Latios is more viable though which is nice. Oh, and Mega Charizard X. Azumarill and Mega Gardevoir seem pretty simple changes as well. I don't think Magnezone should rise all the way up to A+, that seems far too excessive especially considering the power creep anyway putting things like Latios in A+. RE: other trappers, Gothitelle is annoying again, and I've heard good things about Dugtrio, even though I've never used it post-ORAS. Weavile is better which makes me happy, and Hydreigon should definitely rise since its Scarf set has the right coverage to revenge all the threatening Mega Pokemon.
There are many Pokemon which could probably move around because the meta is really different, but if we focus on little parts of the ranking at a time, we can get a very accurate ranking, so heaps of discussion is encouraged
I never thought Keldeo should have been S rank but now I really don't think so. It just doesn't really like any of the new megas. So many of them can outspeed and many of those can also ohko (Diancie, Metagross, Gallade, Salamence, Sceptile) so that translates to one more check than before on most teams.
Keldeo also has a couple more counters among those new megas...even worse, they can set up on it. Salamence, Altaria, Latias, and Slowbro all get a free turn off of Keldeo's two stabs. Sure Icy Wind hurts, but if they feel threatened they can just tank the Icy Wind (or in Salamence's case, outspeed) and KO instead of setting up.
Keldeo also has a couple more counters among those new megas...even worse, they can set up on it. Salamence, Altaria, Latias, and Slowbro all get a free turn off of Keldeo's two stabs. Sure Icy Wind hurts, but if they feel threatened they can just tank the Icy Wind (or in Salamence's case, outspeed) and KO instead of setting up.
Do you think Azu should drop to A, or even A- if we're stretching it? I mean, it's still a great mon and can do a great amount, but ORAS has been nothing but harsh to it with things like gunkninja, megabro and the return of thundy (ferro doesnt help either, but atleast it kinda has ways to deal with it)
I've gotta second megagross moving up to S. That thing is so stupidly difficult to deal with. It's got insane bulk, and it's attack is through the roof with tough claws. 110, although not the fastest, allows it to outspeed and OHKO pokes it would otherwise have huge problems with; keldeo, terrakion, etc. Although there are some not so great sets out there, the all out attacking megagross is just insane. There are few things that can deal with it with ease, and even some of those things don't like taking hits. It may just be me, but I definitely think it's deserving of S rank.
"Outclassed by itself", hmm...? Sounds familiar. :3
I really wanna see Mega Gallade in S Rank. The offensive stats are very good, the defensive stats for a defensive pokemon too. It has a damn good movepool which makes it a pretty good Swords Dance sweeper which can with the right support sweep a lot of teams easily at +2. With attacks like Zen Headbutt and Knock Off it has nice coverage and hits any single pokemon neutral. U can run Shadow Sneak over Knock off too to dont have to speed tie with pokemon like mega metagross, (mega) latios / latias or gengar to make sweeps way easier or u can run ice punch over zen headbutt or knock off to hit threts like mega mence or lando t hard an ohko them at +1.
On the other side u can run a more defensive set with taunt / will o wisp / close combat or drain punch / knock off too which is able to break stall teams pretty easy and also does a lot of work against offense.
E: maybe thundus rise to s would be good too it does nice work with stopping mega mence's sweeps and supporting it well at the same time
On the other side u can run a more defensive set with taunt / will o wisp / close combat or drain punch / knock off too which is able to break stall teams pretty easy and also does a lot of work against offense.
E: maybe thundus rise to s would be good too it does nice work with stopping mega mence's sweeps and supporting it well at the same time
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mega gallade for s because it has a fucking cape
also altaria and sableye need to move up a notch, both are gods in their own right, packing crazy good typings, abilities, and movepools. they can be very menacing offensively while having everything needed to be self-sufficient, requiring little to no support from teammates, something very few mons can boast. bump em.
also altaria and sableye need to move up a notch, both are gods in their own right, packing crazy good typings, abilities, and movepools. they can be very menacing offensively while having everything needed to be self-sufficient, requiring little to no support from teammates, something very few mons can boast. bump em.
Mega Gallade is not that easy to sweep with, since there are a lot of Pokemon seen on offensive teams that it needs removed before it can secure a sweep, such as Talonflame, Greninja, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, and Scarf Landorus-T. Mega Gallade usually does not sweep teams very easily until these threats are gone, and while its attack and speed stats are comely on paper, it can easily be prevented from setting up, as it tends to lack the longetivity that I find it needs in order to set up a sweep.
EDIT: If we are talking about its sweeping ability, then do not make it rise; on its versatility, that could be argued about making it rise.
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Mega Salamence should just get its own rank for the time being, something like SS-Rank (like people in the Smash Back Room did for Meta Knight back in the day) or perhaps ☆-Rank (Star Rank), since that's typically the rank above S. Really, this thing is just so absurdly powerful and dominating that it fully deserves its own rank. Also the rank's color should be dark blue because blue.
Also throwing in my support for Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade rising to S. These two have in common that they're fast, powerful, physical, Mega-Evolved Psychic-types with fantastic movepools, but then there's a list of reasons for each of them to rise. Mega Gallade has 165 Attack and access to Swords Dance and offensive recovery in Drain Punch; combined with that excellent offensive prowess, it won't have a hard time regaining lost health. It also has great three-move coverage with Close Combat/Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt and Knock Off. Mega Metagross, on the other hand, has amazing bulk that allows it to easily switch in on many things combined with its Steel/Psychic-type and is one of the best offensive answers to Mega Salamence. It's got Agility, too, which turns it into an unoutspeedable force of pure destruction in the blink of an eye.
Now, for drops:
Mega Charizard X should probably drop to A+ for the time being. Don't get me wrong, it's still a fantastic Pokémon that can easily pull its weight on any team. It's just that Mega Salamence severely outclasses it in everything it can do and has far more Speed and bulk, making it an overall far superior Pokémon. Drop Zard X.
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Charizard Y should drop to A. They're still both fantastic Mega Evolutions, but do face a lot more competition for the Mega slot and are now in a less favorable Speed tier. Mega Gardevoir is still overall better, however, and does still stand out as the best offensive Fairy-type, so perhaps Gardy can stay A+ while Zard Y drops.
Mega Medicham should just drop all the way down to B+ or even B. Why would you use this over Mega Gallade? I guess the extra power is nice, but aside from that, Mega Medicham lacks in bulk, coverage and Speed, three things Gallade has far more than Medicham.
Mega Pinsir is in a similar boat as Mega Medicham. Despite having access to Swords Dance and priority, Mega Pinsir is far frailer and slower than Mega Salamence, on top of being very one-dimensional contrary to the versatile Mega Salamence. For the time being, drop it to B+.
Also throwing in my support for Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade rising to S. These two have in common that they're fast, powerful, physical, Mega-Evolved Psychic-types with fantastic movepools, but then there's a list of reasons for each of them to rise. Mega Gallade has 165 Attack and access to Swords Dance and offensive recovery in Drain Punch; combined with that excellent offensive prowess, it won't have a hard time regaining lost health. It also has great three-move coverage with Close Combat/Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt and Knock Off. Mega Metagross, on the other hand, has amazing bulk that allows it to easily switch in on many things combined with its Steel/Psychic-type and is one of the best offensive answers to Mega Salamence. It's got Agility, too, which turns it into an unoutspeedable force of pure destruction in the blink of an eye.
Now, for drops:
Mega Charizard X should probably drop to A+ for the time being. Don't get me wrong, it's still a fantastic Pokémon that can easily pull its weight on any team. It's just that Mega Salamence severely outclasses it in everything it can do and has far more Speed and bulk, making it an overall far superior Pokémon. Drop Zard X.
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Charizard Y should drop to A. They're still both fantastic Mega Evolutions, but do face a lot more competition for the Mega slot and are now in a less favorable Speed tier. Mega Gardevoir is still overall better, however, and does still stand out as the best offensive Fairy-type, so perhaps Gardy can stay A+ while Zard Y drops.
Mega Medicham should just drop all the way down to B+ or even B. Why would you use this over Mega Gallade? I guess the extra power is nice, but aside from that, Mega Medicham lacks in bulk, coverage and Speed, three things Gallade has far more than Medicham.
Mega Pinsir is in a similar boat as Mega Medicham. Despite having access to Swords Dance and priority, Mega Pinsir is far frailer and slower than Mega Salamence, on top of being very one-dimensional contrary to the versatile Mega Salamence. For the time being, drop it to B+.
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