Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Redolent]

Mega Gallade seems too high. Admittedly haven't used it, but it doesn't really resist any priority, has poor Speed before Mega evolving, is walled completely by MegaBro, Sableye and others, is too slow by ORAS Mega standards. Decent, but not exceptional enough to be that high.

Rest of my post might get ignored for not being S/A+ but I'm not gonna be hanging around here for the next few weeks so yeah.

Mega Sharpedo should (will) go up: Crunch has the raw power to OHKO frail mons like Thundurus without hazards, it outspeeds Scarf Landorus-T after a Speed Boost, OHKOs physical walls like Gliscor and Landorus-T with Hydro Pump, resists basically every form of priority, good coverage with STAB alone, Destiny Bond takes down "counters" like Azumarill, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur and Clefable as well as providing insurance against Calm Minders like Slowbro/cune or a boosted SD Bisharp. Imo actually the superior rain mega, able to perform in and out of weather, not bothered by Rotom/Slowbro/Latis, can also 2HKO standard Ferro after rocks, doesn't require a sitting duck turn like Swampert. One of the best cleaners there is.

Mega Glalie is too high, it's just bad. It's too slow to get a chance to explode vs offence, cannot switch in on anything at all, easily walled by stall (Slowbro), doesn't perform well as a suicide lead because it has no sash.

 

[Wargreymon]

I know we do this based on what's in the meta right now and not what will inevitably happen, but… come on, mega salamence is broken as fucking shit and will be quick banned without a doubt because it ruins the game. Is it really smart/fair to be dropping pinsir when as soon as salamence goes pinsir will lose that competition and shoot back up in the ranks? Can't we just create an uber rank temporarily for mega salamence or just remove it and not discuss it at all instead of messing with other pokemons ranks because of its presence?

Anyway, some stuff I support right now...

Mega Latias - A+/S
She is a total monster who can sweep teams with ease. The stored power set is ridiculously powerful and almost impossible to stop if you don't have a dark type on your team/not KO'd. Even a CM/roost/dragon pulse/psyshock set is extremely deadly because of her bulk as she can set up on anything that lacks toxic or fails to 2HKO her (which is everything without a STAB se attack). On top of these sets she can run other stuff effectively like bulky support with defog and healing wish. 140 special attack, 120 defence, 150 special defence, 110 speed… Mega Latias is one of the best mega evolutions we have been introduced to hands down. I'm leaning towards S rank to be honest because her role as a win condition is fucking unmatched. Seeing no obvious mega on my opponents team and then noticing he/she has a latias literally terrifies me.

Mega Metagross - S
This one puts a smile on my face. You did it old pal, you're back on top!
Not much needs to be said here as anything I missed has been covered in other posts. It has a monstrous typing, incredible bulk, hits like a truck, and is very fast. It's not necessarily THAT hard to wear down, but for a pokemon that does what metagross does it certainly is. It also has very good coverage meaning it's hard(ish) to wall. (Slowbro lol seriously why are people not running grass knot when it shits on quag and 2HKO's slowbro?)
The only thing stopping this thing from being broken is the lack of a truly good boosting option like swords dance or dragon dance. S rank please.

 

[Gladio]

Mega-Gallade: A+
The temptation to nominate it for S rank sure was strong but, in the end, I think A+ is quite the appropriate rank for it; many have already discussed to hell and back regarding its placement on the viability rankings, so I'll just list some reasoning behind my nomination: as alexwolf said, while it completely terrorizes slower teams that don't pack Mega-Sableye/Slowbro with its SD set and still manages to hold its own while unboosted thanks to its Speed tier and its excellent coverage/stunningly expansive support movepool (for such an offensive pokemon, that is), the metagame is simply too unkind for it to truly make it S Rank: Mega-Salamence is still around for now and it completely counters it (except if it switches while not MEvolved yet into an Ice Punch, but not everyone runs such a move and it's kind of a rare scenario), many offensive pokemon like Mega-Metagross/Diancie/(regular) Latios can check it decently well (HP Fire Latios cannot for obvious reasons, but the others either speed-tie or outspeed Gallade and can hit it very hard), Mega-Sableye is on the rise and is a full stop to any Gallade set there is (unboosted Knock Off does 19% to the Physically Defensive variant, so it's not breaking it anytime soon). There are also defensive checks, but I'm not going to list them all (although it's worth noticing that such list becomes minuscule once Gallade has a SD boost under its belt).
So, while it's not that far away from being worthy of S Rank, the metagame being really birdspam/HO centered and being completely countered by some of the most common pokemon in the tier doesn't make its life quite easy. Speaking of S rank...

Keldeo: A+
Base 108 Speed doesn't cut it anymore and, while its Choice Scarf set makes for a very good Greninja and Landorus/T check and its Choice Specs set packs a lot of power, the new threats are simply too much for it to handle: many of the new MEvos outspeed and pulverize the pony with their Super Effective moves (Ex.:Gallade can even take a Specs HPump if need be (although it has to be healthy), Sceptile naturally outspeeds non-CS variants even before MEvolving, Salamence only fears Icy Wind before MEvolving, otherwise it sets up on it, etc), while things like Extrasensory Greninja and Talonflame are more common than ever.

Mega-Sableye: A / A+
This thing provides so much utility in one single team slot it's not even funny, but what is even better about it is the fact that it's probably the only pokemon (outside of Slowbro) that still has utility before MEvolving. And how! While in normal form, it can fire priority Will-o-Wisp to cripple any set-up sweeper not named Talonflame or not behind a sub and Recover off any minor damage taken, while its MEvolution allows it to become a nigh-impenetrable wall immune to Statuses, Roar/Whirlwind and, most importantly, Taunt: because of this, it can even forgo Taunt on its own for Knock Off/Foul Play/even Metal Burst considering its slow, bulky and has Recover, or embrace the role of a very potent win condition with CM+Recover, essentially becoming a CM Reuniclus, but with a better STAB, immune to Taunt/Statuses/PHazing, with WoW to neuter physical attackers and without a Pursuit/Knock Off weakness. It does have some hard counters in M-Altaria/Clefable, but that's what teammates are for.

Mega-Medicham: A-
Don't have much experience with this one, but SketchUp explained it quite nicely: its only advantages over Mega Gallade are its greater "Turn 1-power" and the fact that it can use Fake Out to secure a safe MEvolution against faster targets, otherwise our mighty caped fighter overshadows Medicham in every other aspect, possessing higher Speed, better bulk, a safer and more spammable STAB, Knock Off, and a much bigger and colorful movepool.

 

[Celticpride]

View attachment 29664-> A-
So many new checks in mega gross, mega diancie, mega altaria and mega scept and loppuny that outspeed it even after a dd.

I don't know about this. DD has gotten worse, although Diancie (350 speed), Mega Metagross (base 350), and Mega Altaria (same base speed) don't outspeed after a DD, and Sceptile and Lopunny get outsped after a DD if Jolly (because no one runs max speed Sceptile really, all mixed sets). CB Dragonite is freaking amamzing at cleaning , however. Literally mows down Greninja, Talonflame, Weavile, Thundurus-I and all those other fast and frail mons without breaking a sweat. It's nice to have really strong priority that doesn't have to worrry about other priority or priority T-Waves at all. I've been using CB DNite a lot on the ladder and pretty much only use Extremespeed outside of the occasional Earthquake or Fire Punch on the painful obvious switch to Heatran or Ferrothorn. The Choice Band set may be enough to keep it where it is.

 

[Flarowak]

Gotta say I'm shocked Mega Slowbro isn't at least A+, this thing is practically the perfect tank. Huge amounts of bulk along with great special attack. It's pretty easy to bring it in on many mons and setup to make it extremely hard to kill. In particular just about any physical scarf user is an easy setup. Even T-Tars give it free setups as it's crunch only does around around at best a 3hko with full attack investment and adamant nature.

 

[alexwolf]

Friendly reminder to everyone that we are discussing about the Pokemon in S and A+ ranks, and other nominations will be ignored.

 

[Flarowak]

Friendly reminder to everyone that we are discussing about the Pokemon in S and A+ ranks, and other nominations will be ignored.

Oh sorry, I thought we were discussing what we thought should be there.

If that's the case I feel everything is pretty much right. Can't dispute much with what's already in there.

 

[TaBuu]

supporting the keldeo drop from s rank --> a+ rank
​

as many people have already posted, keldeo might need to drop a letter grade in oras ou. the speed creep is really not looking favorable for keldeo and the influx of pokemon that can easily handle keldeo ( i.e mega mence, mega gallade, mega slowbro ) make keldeo a slightly less favorable pokemon selection this time around.
keldeo is still a very potent pokemon, but in terms of overall viability, keldeo's really going to take a hit because of all these factors.
choice'd keldeo variants spell doom for many teams as there are way too many pokemon at the moment that can claim game with a single turn of set-up ( again looking at mega mence, mega gallade and even mega latias ). calm mind variants find themselves helplessly checked by a plethora of new megas while still possessing all the same flaws and issues it had in the xy ou meta ( for example, the relevance of talonflame really hampers its sweeping potential ).

 

[Flarowak]

I can support a Keldeo drop, I actually was just thinking about that after my last post. Didn't realized it was already discussed either lol. I agree though, there are quite a few more mons out there able to deal with him now and I think a drop is warranted. Mence, Altaria, Gallade Slowbro Pidgeot all pretty much take him down.

 

[Alfalfa]

Mega Charizard X -> A+

Greninja -> S+
When Mega Salamence will be banned, it will become the best Pokemon in the metagame.

Keldeo -> A+


Latios -> A+
Latios received new checks with Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye and Mega Sceptile.

Mega Salamence -> Uber plz

Azumarill -> A

Clefable -> I think it is fine in A+.

Mega Gallade -> Stays in A+
It's a very good Pokemon, but it has to many checks to go to S.

Garchomp -> A

Mega Gardevoir -> Could stay in A+

Mega Metagross -> S

Mew -> A

Mega Pinsir -> B (for the moment)
Mega Salamence will be banned soon, so I think A-rank will be fine for it.

Thundurus -> S
Prankster TWave and its speed tier are more important than ever.

Mega Venusaur -> A

Mega Gyarados -> A+

Mega Latias -> A+/S

Mega Slowbro -> A+/S
Incredibly hard to stop.

Mega Sableye -> A+

Can you give any reason towards why Keldeo would drop? You still need one or two checks to it in order to not get steamrolled right over it, and while the speed tiers have continued to creep up, Keldeo is still incredibly good at pressuring Slowbro and Latias even in their Mega forms. If you cannot provide any reasoning towards dropping Keldeo, then why are you nominating it to drop?
I could understand Mega Venusaur, but your reasoning on Azumarill (aka Greninja gets Gunk Shot now, therefore it should drop) is more of a testimony towards how good Greninja is, rather than how much of a hit Azumarill took. Sure, there are more Pokémon that can get past Azumarill, but some of them can still lose one-on-one to it, such as Lopunny and Mega Latias. If you cannot provide concrete reasoning towards dropping these Pokémon, then do not nominate them to drop.

 

[Wargreymon]

To be fair, when someone says something like that (a nomination without a reason) it's okay when you consider that same nomination has been made over and over again in the thread with every possible reasoning mentioned. So, instead of re-iterating what everyone else has said many times before (that's pointless), he's just letting people know he agrees with the drop.
I'm only referring to keldeo of course, he should be giving reasons for the others he nominated that haven't really been mentioned yet in the thread.

I must say though that I disagree with Mega Gardevoir staying in A+. The speed creep issue is pretty obvious with things like metagross and even beedrill now being able to comfortably outspeed and OHKO. Metagross is also a prime switch in for non will o wisp variants. On top of this, she lost a great selling point that she had in being able to check greninja, who now decimates her with gunk shot.
There's also the opportunity cost of her mega slot (This is not a silly argument, this actually fucking applies to her so GTFO with saying opportunity cost is not an argument). Quite a few new mega pokemon can actually hit around as hard as her but with the added benefit of being much faster, meaning they can serve as a wall breaking mega but don't have a shitty match up against offence. I still believe the princess is a fantastic pokemon who is more than deserving of an A rank, but A+ in ORAS is too high. Mega Gardevoir for A.

 

[Clone]

Can you give any reason towards why Keldeo would drop? You still need one or two checks to it in order to not get steamrolled right over it, and while the speed tiers have continued to creep up, Keldeo is still incredibly good at pressuring Slowbro and Latias even in their Mega forms. If you cannot provide any reasoning towards dropping Keldeo, then why are you nominating it to drop?
I could understand Mega Venusaur, but your reasoning on Azumarill (aka Greninja gets Gunk Shot now, therefore it should drop) is more of a testimony towards how good Greninja is, rather than how much of a hit Azumarill took. Sure, there are more Pokémon that can get past Azumarill, but some of them can still lose one-on-one to it, such as Lopunny and Mega Latias. If you cannot provide concrete reasoning towards dropping these Pokémon, then do not nominate them to drop.

Less than stellar speed tier, increase in amount of checks such as gross, Gallade, Mence, and Sceptile, as well as the prominence of older once like Lati@s. On top of this his speed tier is less than stellar as he's outsped by a lot of the new megas. Also, his best set in XY, Choice Specs, is nowhere near as good anymore because of the speed creep. He's either forced to run a scarf to RK and keep up with the meta or go down a boosting route with SubCM.

Keldeo was already the most controversial S rank by a long shot and was advocated to be dropped by many pre ORAS. At this point, not dropping him is nothing but pure bias. He's good, but he doesn't define the meta.

 

[MikeDawg]

Metagross = A+

Metagross, in my opinion, has no business in S-rank. While it is a lovely mon, its good traits are far overstated.

1. Bulk.
Metagross does have stellar defensive stats, but in actual play, they are underwhelming. Metagross forced to both run uninvested (with the exception of agility sets) and live with Steel/Psychic typing. This gives Metagross four very common weaknesses in Fire, Ground, Dark, and Ghost. Gross is blessed with a number of resistances, but many of these resistances (normal, poison, steel) are rarely used offensive types, and are easily covered by other mons. On top of that, its very nice resistances to Dragon, Flying, Rock and Ice are somewhat futile given that they are almost always paired with moves that give Metagross hell. Examples include Landorus-T (EdgeQuake, though scarf lando does not possess the ability to use both), Talonflame (Fire/Flying), Weavile (Ice, Dark), any physical dragon, since fire/ground coverage is standard. Even a switch into Latios will result in losing about 50%. Combine this with a lack of recovery, and Metagross is not taking nearly as many hits as one would desire. On the special spectrum, it is taking at least 50% from nearly any non-resisted special attack, and things like Keldeo's hydro pump can straight-up KO it with a bit of prior damage. While its bulk does give it a decent amount of staying power while it is on the field, its switchin opportunities are limited, and this is a huge problem given that a large selling point is ease of coming in as a result of its bulk. The fact that Gross needs to spend a turn Megavolving before it has that outstanding bulk/speed only adds to the issue.

2. Coverage
Metagross has great coverage, but heavy 4MSS. Typically the 4mss argument is complete bs, because it is used on mons like Greninja where it is simply blessed with a large movepool. Metagross, on the other hand, is a huge victim as a result of its typing. Its two stabs, steel and psychic, provide poor coverage. Running stabs is close to mandatory on 'gross, though, due to their boost in power, but this leaves metagross with only two slots to fulfill the rest of its needs. This could mean Ice Punch for Lando/Dragons, Earthquake for Heatran/Metagross, hammer arm for Ferrothorn/Heatran, Bullet punch for lots of stuff, Agility for sweeping potential, Grass knot for Slowbro/Hippo, Pursuit for trapping. Hammer arm fails to nab some ko's such as on Heatran and ferro, and ferro can even leech seed stall if given the opportunity. It also drops metagross' speed, which is hugely problematic in terms of being revenged or even outsped and ko'd by the opposing mon. Metagross' lackluster stab coverage means that it will have quite a bit of redundancy with its coverage moves, limiting further how many mons it can handle. Without specific preparation, almost all teams will have at least a few checks to metagross, simply because of its heavy need to pick and choose coverage moves.

3. Mega Probs
Now more than ever, the competition for a mega slot is cut-throat. Using metagross is, of course, giving up the ability to use other megas. The power creep among megas has also gone through the roof, to the point where even Charizard-X no longer seems so incredibly strong. Metagross has a difficult time dealing with the turn of Megavolving. Its switchin prospects are made even slimmer as a result of its slow, less-bulky normal form. Add the fact that so many mons in this meta can do major damage to 'gross, and it has a harder time megavolving than one would initially think. Clear body gives it a bit of a buffer as far as Lando is concerned, but this is nothing compared to Prankster or Intimidate held by sableye and salamence respectively.


As a whole, Megagross has plenty going for it, but not to the point where it is a top-dog. It is super susceptible to being worn down as a result of its typing and lack of recovery, somewhat mitigating its otherwise stellar bulk. Most mons carry the means to heavily damage or ko metagross as a result of common type pairings. This is made more problematic by that megavolving turn and the aforementioned longevity issue. Metagross has heavy 4MSS due to lackluster stab coverage, leaving it susceptible to being walled throughout the match by very common mons such as ferrothorn and slowbro. Metagross, as with all megas, comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to use one of the many other megas, which should be taken into consideration.

Because of ^, I feel that A+ is the perfect place for Metagross.

 

[theV8man]

Metagross = A+

Metagross, in my opinion, has no business in S-rank. While it is a lovely mon, its good traits are far overstated.

1. Bulk.
Metagross does have stellar defensive stats, but in actual play, they are underwhelming. Metagross forced to both run uninvested (with the exception of agility sets) and live with Steel/Psychic typing. This gives Metagross four very common weaknesses in Fire, Ground, Dark, and Ghost. Gross is blessed with a number of resistances, but many of these resistances (normal, poison, steel) are rarely used offensive types, and are easily covered by other mons. On top of that, its very nice resistances to Dragon, Flying, Rock and Ice are somewhat futile given that they are almost always paired with moves that give Metagross hell. Examples include Landorus-T (EdgeQuake, though scarf lando does not possess the ability to use both), Talonflame (Fire/Flying), Weavile (Ice, Dark), any physical dragon, since fire/ground coverage is standard. Even a switch into Latios will result in losing about 50%. Combine this with a lack of recovery, and Metagross is not taking nearly as many hits as one would desire. On the special spectrum, it is taking at least 50% from nearly any non-resisted special attack, and things like Keldeo's hydro pump can straight-up KO it with a bit of prior damage. While its bulk does give it a decent amount of staying power while it is on the field, its switchin opportunities are limited, and this is a huge problem given that a large selling point is ease of coming in as a result of its bulk. The fact that Gross needs to spend a turn Megavolving before it has that outstanding bulk/speed only adds to the issue.

2. Coverage
Metagross has great coverage, but heavy 4MSS. Typically the 4mss argument is complete bs, because it is used on mons like Greninja where it is simply blessed with a large movepool. Metagross, on the other hand, is a huge victim as a result of its typing. Its two stabs, steel and psychic, provide poor coverage. Running stabs is close to mandatory on 'gross, though, due to their boost in power, but this leaves metagross with only two slots to fulfill the rest of its needs. This could mean Ice Punch for Lando/Dragons, Earthquake for Heatran/Metagross, hammer arm for Ferrothorn/Heatran, Bullet punch for lots of stuff, Agility for sweeping potential, Grass knot for Slowbro/Hippo, Pursuit for trapping. Hammer arm fails to nab some ko's such as on Heatran and ferro, and ferro can even leech seed stall if given the opportunity. It also drops metagross' speed, which is hugely problematic in terms of being revenged or even outsped and ko'd by the opposing mon. Metagross' lackluster stab coverage means that it will have quite a bit of redundancy with its coverage moves, limiting further how many mons it can handle. Without specific preparation, almost all teams will have at least a few checks to metagross, simply because of its heavy need to pick and choose coverage moves.

3. Mega Probs
Now more than ever, the competition for a mega slot is cut-throat. Using metagross is, of course, giving up the ability to use other megas. The power creep among megas has also gone through the roof, to the point where even Charizard-X no longer seems so incredibly strong. Metagross has a difficult time dealing with the turn of Megavolving. Its switchin prospects are made even slimmer as a result of its slow, less-bulky normal form. Add the fact that so many mons in this meta can do major damage to 'gross, and it has a harder time megavolving than one would initially think. Clear body gives it a bit of a buffer as far as Lando is concerned, but this is nothing compared to Prankster or Intimidate held by sableye and salamence respectively.


As a whole, Megagross has plenty going for it, but not to the point where it is a top-dog. It is super susceptible to being worn down as a result of its typing and lack of recovery, somewhat mitigating its otherwise stellar bulk. Most mons carry the means to heavily damage or ko metagross as a result of common type pairings. This is made more problematic by that megavolving turn and the aforementioned longevity issue. Metagross has heavy 4MSS due to lackluster stab coverage, leaving it susceptible to being walled throughout the match by very common mons such as ferrothorn and slowbro. Metagross, as with all megas, comes with the opportunity cost of not being able to use one of the many other megas, which should be taken into consideration.

Because of ^, I feel that A+ is the perfect place for Metagross.

The way I see it, if Megagross decides to go the four attacking moves route, it's kinda easy to revenge kill, and if it goes the agility route, it's not that had to wall it. It can't get the best of both worlds, and isn't really meta-defining enough to warrant an S ranking. I had an argument about its typing before, people were saying it was terrifying because of all the resistances/immunity it offered. But in practice, being immune to Poison isn't a big deal, and like you said its resistances aren't the most common attacking types. It doesn't resist the important offensive attacking types, like Water, Fire, Dark, Ground. Great mega for sure, but not S imo.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I'm gonna give a complete overview of what I'd like to see in S and A+.

☆ Rank

Mega Salamence - As I've established, this dragon is just too good compared to the S-Rankers. It's got the power, bulk, Speed and versatility to be a literally nearly unwallable threat. Only extremely niche shit can hope to counter it and Mega Salamence usually has sets that get around standard counters, such as the special set dealing with Rhyperior. Its physical bulk after Mega Evolving is gargantuan and allows it to use almost any physical attacker as set-up bait and forces a ton of switches. Aerilate gives it immense STABs (Return/Double-Edge and Hyper Voice) and all it usually needs for physical coverage is Earthquake. Fast DD, bulky DD, Refresh DD, SubDD, MixDD, physically mixed, specially mixed, purely special... Mega Salamence can pull off all of these sets to fantastic extents. This Pokémon defines the metagame far more than anything else and therefore deserves its own rank. If not, then I'm for a subdivision of S into S-, S and S+, with this one being in S+.

S Rank

Mega Gallade - It may be somewhat slow before Mega Evolving, but after that it has much better power, Speed and physical bulk. 165 Attack combined with Swords Dance and STAB Close Combat is brilliant and all it needs for coverage are Zen Headbutt and Knock Off. It can use its support movepool as well to function as a strong stallbreaker.

Greninja - Amazing attacker with Life Orb, Protean and the newly-acquired Gunk Shot to ruin any Fairy-type's day, no longer countered by Fairies. 122 Speed is still fantastic in this metagame as well, mainly for outrunning Mega Salamence.

Landorus-T - I was advocating for this back at the end of XY, but now I feel like Landorus-T has more than enough reason to rise. Its Scarf set can check all the new physical threats, outspeeding them and crippling them all with Intimidate. On top of that, Ground/Flying is still an excellent typing and it pairs excellently with some of the new Mega Evolutions, including Lopunny, Beedrill, Gallade and Metagross. Overall, its utility, power and ability to be slapped onto just about any team with ease are more than enough to warrant a rise to S.

Mega Metagross - Immense offensive presence thanks to Tough Claws and 145 Attack coupled with a fantastic physical movepool, ridiculous ease in switching in thanks to 80/150/110 bulk, really fast with 110 Speed and can become faster still with Agility.

Thundurus-I - The kami of lightning has gained some new use in ORAS; its 111 Speed is extremely trollish, allowing it outpace Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade, two immense threats. Its ability to spread Thunder Waves is better than ever, looking at the plethora of fast offensive threats. Plenty of reason to make Thundurus-I rise back to S.

A+ Rank

Bisharp - What keeps Bisharp in A+, IMO, is its high power and good typing combined with fantastic STABs in Sucker Punch, Pursuit and Knock Off. All three of these moves have great utility and Psychic-types are running rampant in OU at the moment, so Bisharp serves as a great check to all of them, even a counter to some. Definitely A+ material.

Mega Charizard X - Mega Charizard X has taken a harsh blow in ORAS. Not only does Mega Salamence outclass it in pretty much every offensive role, but Mega Charizard X faces competition from newcomers Mega Metagross and Mega Gallade as physical attackers; it's outsped by all three of these Pokémon and while its burn immunity and role as a supporter on Stall are still really nice, it just doesn't have the same awesome factor that it used to have in XY. Time for this guy to drop to A+ for now, but it could rise back to S once Mega Salamence leaves.

Mega Gardevoir - alexwolf has summed it up pretty well in his post on page 10/11, so be sure to give that a look. Basically, Mega Gardevoir is a fantastic check to some of the new Mega Evolutions and is just as good a special wallbreaker as it's ever been. Its 100 Speed may not be too favorable with the new standard being 110, but this means Mega Gardevoir has even more reason to run Modest over Timid and break its opposition even better. It was already outpaced by quite a few Pokémon and with the new Speed standard, it doesn't feel too pressured and can opt for more power because it's slower anyway. Mega Gardevoir is one of the best checks to (Sub) Mega Sceptile and Mega Sableye out there, as well as an excellent check to Latios and a full-on counter to SP Mega Latias. Yeah, this dancer should remain A+.

Gengar - Spoop has 110 Speed, the most important number to have at the moment, as well as its awesome Ghost/Poison-type STAB coverage that's become even better with the rising threats. Focus Blast is all it needs in terms of coverage and it can still forgo that when running support moves like Taunt, Substitute, etc. Definitely still A+ material.

Mega Gyarados - Crunch is extremely good for Mega Gyarados and I see no reason as to why it wouldn't run the move. It helps get Mega Gyara past Mega Slowbro, the Eons (and their Megas), Mew and so much more. Waterfall and Earthquake do for coverage most of the time thanks to that 155 Attack, since its moves still hit really hard and Mold Breaker remains extremely useful to break through Clefable and Rotom-W. It can run Taunt over EQ, since Water/Dark has great neutral coverage (as Crawdaunt demonstrated), so it's a surefire threat against Stall teams. Mega Gyarados should rise back to A+.

Keldeo - Another great Pokémon that suffered from the ORAS changes. As stated previously, Keldeo was one of the borderline S-Rankers, but now I feel like A+ is more fitting for it. It's unfortunately outsped by many new Mega Evolutions and Mega Salamence in particular is a pain in the ass for the swordhorse. Still has amazing wallbreaking power and 108 Speed is good, but Keldeo just isn't what it used to be in XY.

Landorus-I - Still a great LO attacker with immense power and a good 101 Speed stat. Its Speed is less stellar than it used to be, but Landorus-I has pretty good matchups against some of the new threats and has a good degree of versatility. Keep in A+, I'd say.

Mega Latias - I'm really torn on this one. I fully understand the arguments to move Mega Latias to S due to its incredible ease at setting up and proceeding to sweep entire teams, but it's really reliant on removal of Dark-types before it can do anything, not to mention it's stopped cold by Mega Sableye. Stored Power sets are walled by Mega Metagross on offensive teams as well, a highly dominant Mega Evolution. I feel like Mega Latias can go to A+ or S, since it does have fantastic bulk and a lot more power, but I don't think it's quite as good as Mega Metagross or Mega Gallade.

Latios - Despite having the new standard Speed of 110, Latios has decreased in usefulness due to newcomers being able to wall it or cripple it easily; Mega Metagross can come in on almost anything Latios can do and proceed to set up on it or outright OHKO, while Mega Sableye can stall it out of Draco Meteors and proceed to outstall or set up on the dragon. Latios is still great, but not as defining as it used to be, so a drop to A+ makes sense.

Magnezone - Magnezone is at its peak right now. Being one of the very best offensive partners to Mega Salamence and other Mega Evolutions, capable of trapping annoying Steel-types and dealing excellently with unboosted Mega Slowbro thanks to its brutal Thunderbolts coming off of 130 Special Attack, it definitely has a lot going for it as the metagame currently is. Its many resistances are still incredibly useful as well, allowing it to be partnered with a huge slew of Pokémon.

Mega Sableye - Rupee troll deserves to be in A+ because of its wonderful stallbreaking capacities, not giving a shit about status thanks to Magic Bounce, having a great pre-Mega Ability in Prankster that still works on the first Mega Evo turn, much better 50/125/115 defenses and the ability to run multiple trollish sets. It's also the only foolproof Mega Gallade counter, which is pretty big considering how dangerous the swordsman is. Not to mention, this thing makes Stall its bitch. A+ for Sabes.

Talonflame - Its revenge killing potential is greatly appreciated to let bulkier attackers have an easier time shredding through teams. Priority Brave Bird has gained even more use right now, looking at some of the new Megas, like Gallade, Sceptile, Lopunny and Beedrill. Still pretty strong as a RKer and definitely retains its overall usefulness, so it's got enough reason to stay in A+.

The Pokémon I haven't listed that currently are in A+ should drop, IMO. Either that or I don't really know how much the new meta has impacted them, hence why they're not listed.. I'll be explaining why they should change rank when discussion about A and A- begins, but this is my big post on S and A+. If there's anything you'd like to add or disagree with, I'd love to hear supportive arguments and counterarguments alike.
Kyuzeth out.

 

[termi]

yo I agree with MikeDawg that Mega Metagross really isn't worthy of S rank despite of how good it is. With shit like Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Heatran and Landorus-T, Rotom-W and Zapdos running around in the tier, every team has at least one very solid check/counter to it even when you don't keep Megagross in mind when teambuilding. If you don't run EQ, Heatran walls you, if you don't run Zen Headbutt, Zapdos and Washtom wall you, if you don't run Ice Punch, Landorus-T takes you on, if you don't run Grass Knot, MegaBro walls you and Skarm and Ferro just wall you, period (Thunder Punch can possibly 2HKO non-Lefties Skarm after rocks but even that chance is very small). It really has an extreme case of 4MSS and in addition to that, it gets worn down very easily due to the fact that it wants to switch in on a lot of things and has no way to recover the lost health. It's not like MegaMence where you have to use designated checks and counters for it or else you get 6-0d or like Greninja which can't kill everything, but has the luxury of being able to handle pretty much everything bar extremely bulky Normal types (Chansey and P2). Its speed is great and so is its bulk (although when uninvested not amazing & it has common weaknesses) but when I look at what the standards are rn it falls jsut short of S rank imo

Same goes for Mega Gallade, I've seen some people discuss that thing be moved up to S but I don't feel it's worthy of anything above A+. Its speed puts it in the same tier as Lati@s, Mega Diancie and Megagross, each of which can easily stomp it if they win the speed tie, but the main thing is that I feel like it's not the most amazing setup sweeper around. 68/95/115 is nice, yes, but the thing is that no matter what mega Gallade comes in on, pretty much everything in the meta has a way to hit it pretty hard, meaning that after an SD it's usually weakened enough for anything with powerful priority to pick it off. It's also very, very one-dimensional: It pretty much always runs the same moveset, the only thing you gotta worry about is if it runs Ice Punch or Knock Off.

Also, to both of the above applies the opportunity cost argument as well: Considering there are a couple of ridiculous Megas around right now, using it means that you can't use MegaMence. Usually, this isn't a very valid argument imo but in this case it works because MegaMence is great on every team that Mega Gallade or Mega Metagross could fit on and MegaMence just is so fucking good that it's very hard to pass up.

Also:
Megazard X for A+. MegaMence exists lmao, same shit as above.
Keldeo for A+. Its speed tier isn't the OU-defining speed tier anymore what with all the base 110s running around. The new Megas upped the ante and Keldeo struggles to keep up there. Its checks and counters are also more present than ever so imo it fits better in A+ atm
Bisharp is weird for me, I haven't seen it in a very long time for whatever reason, can anyone confirm it's still worthy of A+ rank?
MegaZard Y to A/A-. Good mon and all but it's even worse vs offense than before due to the speed creep. Also bigger opportunity cost than before.

ok don't feel like talking anymore, go ahead and throw flak @ me

@ the friend who posted above me: what the fuck happened to yr spoiler tags my man

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

yo I agree with MikeDawg that Mega Metagross really isn't worthy of S rank despite of how good it is. With shit like Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Heatran and Landorus-T, Rotom-W and Zapdos running around in the tier, every team has at least one very solid check/counter to it even when you don't keep Megagross in mind when teambuilding. If you don't run EQ, Heatran walls you, if you don't run Zen Headbutt, Zapdos and Washtom wall you, if you don't run Ice Punch, Landorus-T takes you on, if you don't run Grass Knot, MegaBro walls you and Skarm and Ferro just wall you, period (Thunder Punch can possibly 2HKO non-Lefties Skarm after rocks but even that chance is very small). It really has an extreme case of 4MSS and in addition to that, it gets worn down very easily due to the fact that it wants to switch in on a lot of things and has no way to recover the lost health. It's not like MegaMence where you have to use designated checks and counters for it or else you get 6-0d or like Greninja which can't kill everything, but has the luxury of being able to handle pretty much everything bar extremely bulky Normal types (Chansey and P2). Its speed is great and so is its bulk (although when uninvested not amazing & it has common weaknesses) but when I look at what the standards are rn it falls jsut short of S rank imo

Same goes for Mega Gallade, I've seen some people discuss that thing be moved up to S but I don't feel it's worthy of anything above A+. Its speed puts it in the same tier as Lati@s, Mega Diancie and Megagross, each of which can easily stomp it if they win the speed tie, but the main thing is that I feel like it's not the most amazing setup sweeper around. 68/95/115 is nice, yes, but the thing is that no matter what mega Gallade comes in on, pretty much everything in the meta has a way to hit it pretty hard, meaning that after an SD it's usually weakened enough for anything with powerful priority to pick it off. It's also very, very one-dimensional: It pretty much always runs the same moveset, the only thing you gotta worry about is if it runs Ice Punch or Knock Off.

Also, to both of the above applies the opportunity cost argument as well: Considering there are a couple of ridiculous Megas around right now, using it means that you can't use MegaMence. Usually, this isn't a very valid argument imo but in this case it works because MegaMence is great on every team that Mega Gallade or Mega Metagross could fit on and MegaMence just is so fucking good that it's very hard to pass up.

Also:
Megazard X for A+. MegaMence exists lmao, same shit as above.
Keldeo for A+. Its speed tier isn't the OU-defining speed tier anymore what with all the base 110s running around. The new Megas upped the ante and Keldeo struggles to keep up there. Its checks and counters are also more present than ever so imo it fits better in A+ atm
Bisharp is weird for me, I haven't seen it in a very long time for whatever reason, can anyone confirm it's still worthy of A+ rank?
MegaZard Y to A/A-. Good mon and all but it's even worse vs offense than before due to the speed creep. Also bigger opportunity cost than before.

ok don't feel like talking anymore, go ahead and throw flak @ me

@ the friend who posted above me: what the fuck happened to yr spoiler tags my man

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-179734904

if you want an answer for your dubiousness on bisharp

 

[Albacore]

Yeah can confirm that Bisharp is really good right now, possibly better than in XY even. Powerful priority is extremely valuable in this metagame, and although you are checked by Lopunny you smack almost all of the faster Megas, and unless it runs Sub, not even MMence can stop your sweep because of Defiant. Still a top-tier mon imo.

Mike Dawg and Robert Alfons actually brought up a couple of really good points about MMetagross. It does have 4MSS, I don't think that really can be denied. Chances are you'll have something that can take it on no matter what playstyle you're running, without even thinking about it (for instance, runnig Ferrothron+Slowbro means you can guarantee to be able to take on almost all MMeta sets). It's also relatively easy to scout given that its dual STABs have plenty of resists. However, I don't think that's quite enough to stop it from being S rank simply because of the amount of defensive utility it provides alongside its offensive prowess. It checks a truckload of stuff and is just an amazing glue for bulky offense in general, much like MVenu excpet it's even better than that since it hits harder and is significantly faster, so it loses way less momentum. Also, 4MSS means has a ton of options in return : it can run physical, mixed, agility, it can pursuit trap, lure a bunch of stuff, etc... If you look at it from the perspective of the person facing MMetagross, I guess it might not seem like an S-rank threat, but in terms of what it can actually provide to a team I personally think it does deserve S.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm not so sure we should drop Charizard X to A+, even with Mega Salamence in the metagame. The most common argument for its drop is that it faces immense competition for Mega Salamence. But, this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, the competition Zard X faces from Mega Mence may be enough to warrant a drop. However, due to Mega Mence being so dominant, many people are packing checks to it instead of checks for Zard X. Pokemon such as Mega Sableye, Rotom-Wash, Zapdos-those who can take a hit from Mence and status back (or in sableyes case prankster WoW) are becoming more common. Same goes for Weavile and Mamoswine too, who have priority Ice Shard. Many players are using these pokemon as their "dragon dance" check and not thinking about Charizard X. As a result, many ORAS teams are weak to Charizard X because they prepare for DD Mence instead of DD Zard X now, both of whom have a different list of checks and counters.

Other changes I agree with
Garchomp drops to A
Keldeo drops to A+
Latios drops to A+
Mega Salamence rises to Ubers S+
Thundurus rises to S
Mega Medicham and Mega Pinsir drop
No opinion on Mega Gallade or Mega Metagross
Shouldnt we separate Slowbro and Mega Slowbro even though they are in the same rank? We did this for Tyranitar.

Also, here is a reply that demonstrates why Mega Salamence should go to Ubers why Mega Salamence should get its own rank and why Return/DD/Sub/Roost + Mag or Dugtrio is the best Mega Salamence set.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-181871774

 

[Wargreymon]

Just on the subject of metagross, I believe it's worth noting when arguing against S rank that meteor mash and zen headbutt have a tendency to miss. I can't speak for others but I know when I have used metagross there have been really annoying situations where zen headbutt has missed and keldeo has KO'd me with hydro or burnt me with scald, or it was against a weakened rotom and they managed to get a will o wisp on me. Same problem applies to meteor mash where you can take unnecessary damage that can put you in a bad spot.
Not that great when both of your STABs are liable to miss at crucial moments. I would sure as hell take a 100% accurate MM over the random attack boost.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

If it were relying on something as shaky as Focus Miss or Stone Miss, I'd understand, but 90% accuracy is still good, especially since given Mega-Gross's role, you likely won't be using either STAB more than a few times per battle. Ultimately, if Keldeo can be S-Rank (at any point) for spamming Hydro Miss (do I sound too salty about missing?) then Mega-Gross shouldn't be held back from S-Rank for using 1-2 90% accurate moves. If he's held back from S, it'll be because the Agility set either forfeits STAB or requires a lot of team support to tear through common walls and because the Wallbreaker set has to run Jolly or risk getting outsped by the Ponies, M-Gallade, and other threats I'm probably forgetting about.

 

[Wargreymon]

Keldeo has scald which most people regard as the move that you can spam for massive damage without any drawbacks and a nasty 30% burn chance. It's the holy insurance move that makes keldeo as vicious as he is. You can't compare keldeo and gross because they both have STABS that can miss when keldeo has scald. Hydro pump is just there if you really need it. If it were one STAB or a coverage move then okay, but both of its STABs are 90% accurate which can be a problem.

I'm hardly saying keep metagross away from S because its STABs can miss. I voted for it to go to S. I'm saying it can be used as an argument on top of everything else that has been said.

 

[JebusChrist]

It's worth noting that Metagross gets Hone Claws, so HC/STABs/Coverage is also a possible set

 

[TaBuu]

so much text lol

S+ rank = ubers. come on mang.​

this is nothing more than a slight nitpick. s-rank is where suspect pokemon go. salamence is most definitely a suspect pokemon and will see ubers days into the oras metagame. there is no need for a s+ rank. that'd just translate into ubers lol
while i don't agree with all of your nominations, i do agree with some of your s-rank nominations.

supporting s-rank nominations​

thundy-i is going to be used more than ever in ou, thanks to its godly prankster thunder wave. twave prevents certain threats from just steamrolling through teams which is always a plus. besides twave, thundurus-i has always been a solid pokemon. with base 111 speed, thundy-i is naturally fast and is great for koing slower threats. prankster and defiant both merit their own sets and provide thundy-i with some serious utility.
lando-t is going to see a spike in usage, especially the scarf variant. with intimidate and 89/90/80 defense stats, landorus-t is a fantastic pivot providing not only momentum but utility in knock off/intimidate. with scarf, lando-t can actually hits a respectable 454 speed stat allowing it to outspeed positive base 150s. this enables landorus-t to function as a revenge killer and potent late-game cleaner. but the real icing on the cake is lando-t's capability to compete with all these new megas that are storming oras ou.

 

[Kyuzeth]

S+ rank = ubers. come on mang.​

this is nothing more than a slight nitpick. s-rank is where suspect pokemon go. salamence is most definitely a suspect pokemon and will see ubers days into the oras metagame. there is no need for a s+ rank. that'd just translate into ubers lol
while i don't agree with all of your nominations, i do agree with some of your s-rank nominations.

Not wanting to spark an unnecessary discussion here, but by that logic, everything aside from Megamence and Greninja would be A+ instead of S. Azumarill used to be an S-Rank, but was far from suspect-worthy. The same can be said about Keldeo and even Landorus-I. Mega Salamence is definitely far more threatening than any of the aforementioned Pokémon and even compared to current S-Ranker-to-stay Greninja, the dragon's definitely a big notch above it. Since Mega Salamence is still OU, it should get its own rank for the time being. Oh well, I guess alexwolf and the others are the ones with the final say on it, so let's just keep it at that.