Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

Status
Not open for further replies.
Based on what you said, I guess I can get behind Keldeo dropping, but there's still no way Latios should drop. I think that you, alexwolf, are overstating the impact of these new Megas on Latios. Just because Latios now has actual offensive checks that aren't complete crap/unreliable/situational/whatever else doesn't necessarily mean it should drop a rank. Many of the positives of Latios still remain a factor from XY, and the fact is that it's anything but helpless against these mons, as it can still do severe damage. As in, they're not coming in for free (Diancie, Metagross, Altaria), meaning that Latios can just switch out and have done its job, which would be punching a hole in the opposing team or getting off a Defog. Every team should be carrying answers to these Pokemon either way. Furthermore, while the faster Pokemon are a concern, they only serve to bolster the effectiveness of the Scarf set and aren't nearly as common as Megas like Gallade, Salamence, Metagross, and Sableye. Finally, Latios was never really the balance hazard remover of choice anyways, so I'm not sure what you're alluding to when saying it faces competition with Mega Sableye, which is btw far more effective on bulkier/stall playstyles, which is never where Latios was used. Defog Latios is a hazard remover for heavy offense, bulky offense, and offensively minded balance. And this is a role it faces almost no competition for besides Latias, which is significantly less common than Latios for a reason.
 
From my experience on the ladder, stall is pretty common and pretty weak to Gardevoir, as stall teams have focused around dealing with all the new physical MEvos introduced and usually pack more physical walls than special ones. As for the point of more Pokemon faster than Mega Gardevoir existing, i already explained why this is not a big deal. Not to mention that of those faster threats, Mega Gardevoirs wins 1 on 1 or checks some of them, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Latias, and Mega Sceptile, while checking many of the slower ones, so her match-up against the new threats is overall more positive than negative.

Your point on stall is definitely valid, and I concede that Mega Gardevoir is a brilliant stallbreaker. Despite its strong matchups against several of the new Megas, I'm not sure that a physically frail stallbreaker that takes up the Mega slot is worth an A+ ranking in a fast, physically oriented metagame. Gardevoir may have solid matchups against numerous new Megas, but the fact remains that the physical nature of the meta is definitely holding Gardevoir back and restricting its capabilities against offense. Though it's largely a moot point thanks to Magnezone, there is also the fact that most teams now carry at least one fairly sturdy Steel type due to Mega Mence that is able to come in and take a Hyper Voice.

I'm not denying that Mega Gardevoir is a good Pokemon in ORAS OU, it's just that I don't really think it's on the same level as the things we currently have/will likely be putting in A+ rank.
 
I'm starting to believe Talonflame should rise to S rank. With the help of Stealth Rock, Talonflame can now handle Mega Sableye, Gallade, Sceptile, Altaria and weakened Salamence very well, despite its 4x weakness to SR (to think of it, Charizard X has the same flaw).

I'm still testing it, though. What do you guys think?

Even in ORAS, where Talonflame's assets are much more valued than they are in late XY, Talonflame still lacks a lot of starting power that allows it to bust through bulkier opponents. Zard X is also significantly bulkier than Talonflame, and hits a lot harder, especially since the lack of power is one of Talonflame's biggest problems. While Talonflame is really good against some of the new Megas that are coming out in ORAS, bringing it up to S Rank would completely disregard all of the flaws Talon actually has.
 
Based on what you said, I guess I can get behind Keldeo dropping, but there's still no way Latios should drop. I think that you, alexwolf, are overstating the impact of these new Megas on Latios. Just because Latios now has actual offensive checks that aren't complete crap/unreliable/situational/whatever else doesn't necessarily mean it should drop a rank. Many of the positives of Latios still remain a factor from XY, and the fact is that it's anything but helpless against these mons, as it can still do severe damage. As in, they're not coming in for free (Diancie, Metagross, Altaria), meaning that Latios can just switch out and have done its job, which would be punching a hole in the opposing team or getting off a Defog. Every team should be carrying answers to these Pokemon either way. Furthermore, while the faster Pokemon are a concern, they only serve to bolster the effectiveness of the Scarf set and aren't nearly as common as Megas like Gallade, Salamence, Metagross, and Sableye. Finally, Latios was never really the balance hazard remover of choice anyways, so I'm not sure what you're alluding to when saying it faces competition with Mega Sableye, which is btw far more effective on bulkier/stall playstyles, which is never where Latios was used. Defog Latios is a hazard remover for heavy offense, bulky offense, and offensively minded balance. And this is a role it faces almost no competition for besides Latias, which is significantly less common than Latios for a reason.

I didn't actively play much during late XY OU when Latios hit S, but I'll try to explain as I understand from following threads.

I think the problem is less that Latios got viable offensive checks, and more that those checks don't have to be put on specifically to deal with Latios, whether they deal with other things and Latios is collateral, or they're new mons Latios can't keep up with.

Weavile, for example, improved quite a bit between KO + Icicle Crash compatibility and the need for its Ice Priority (admittedly shared with Mamoswine) or speed against new threats like Mega Mence, Mega Scep, or Landorus. Latios doesn't like added Weavile presence, since he's outsped without Scarf and can't switch into anything except Low Kick regardless. Or Empoleon, who is one of the few answers to non LK Greninja and laughs at non T-Bolt Latios

Latios is a bit harder to fit into a team because there's several more Pokemon that can handle it while still concerning other members of a team, which means he needs much more multi-purpose teammates to function. To bring in a somewhat extreme comparison of what I mean, let's take Mega Lucario.
One thing that made Lucario so dangerous is that because of its insane power on either set, it had very few viable checks. So all the team required was something tailored to remove that set's checks and Luc could muscle through everything else.

Latios requires team support now for a greater number of threats it can't handle alone like Mega Sab, Mega Gross, Mega Mence (as long as it's here), as well as old problems that are getting more common/powerful and thus harder to deal with, like Greninja or Weavile. It's job isn't as easy to do because more mons can deal with its coverage combos, so it's not quite as easy to pressure the opponent for a Defog turn against offense, and mons like Sableye or the occasional Altaria (I've seen a couple at least, whether or not they're good) give Stall more answers to it to either keep their hazards up or deal with it hassle free and re-lay them.

It also just doesn't like the Speed creeping, since it loses more ties than it wins assuming both mons are healthy and 1v1. This also assumes no hazards, since Latios' Defogging would remove it from both sides.
- Mega Metagross shrugs off most of its moves, especially if it dropped from DM, and can set up Agility or just go for the 2HKO (small OHKO chance) with Meteor Mash
- Mega Diancie can OHKO with Moonblast, but none of Latios' can OHKO back on a negative nature
- Mega Gallade has a tiny chance to survive LO Draco Meteor, but Latios never survives Unboosted Mega's KO. So even if it wins the speed tie, there's still a 70% chance it'll lose

Gallade is the shakiest since he has to already be Mega to speed tie, but Metagross and Diancie have enough of a margin (Diancie taking at most 61% from Psyshock with Mega's reduced defenses) that they can afford to take the hit if they aren't Mega'd and still come out on top. If they have evolved, they have the advantage in a Speed tie with Latios while presenting enough of a threat to dent the switch-in to their move.

A speed tie, while still a toss up, is more likely to be a better gamble for the opponent than Latios. This is mainly looking at the new Megas in Latios' speed tier, never mind either resurging old threats or new Megas that outright outspeed.
 
I think it's worth nothing that if Latios runs HP Fire and is not scarfed, it cannot even hope to tie with the base 110s. This makes it easier to play around since you know your base 110 mon is necessarily going to outspeed it if it is able to hit, say, your Scizor or your Ferrothorn.

Just so that this post isn't a one-liner. I definitely thinks MVenu needs to drop. Too much stuff kills it, plain and simple. Metagross switches into it any day of the week, Gallade sets up on it, and do I even need to mention MMence? Also the stuff it checks got way less common etc etc. It also suffers tons of competition for the role of bulky glue that beats fairy-types on bulky offense bu MMetagross who is significantly faster, more powerful, more versatile, more powerful, and just loses less momentum. (Yes, it lacks recovery, but who needs recovery when you're busy smashing the opposing team to the ground) It's still good glue but it's a lot more likely to become a liability atm.
Garchomp also needs to drop because of Sableye if anything. Also the Speed creep hurts it quite a lot too. It was already very close to A rank and this is more than enough for it to drop.
 
I think it's worth nothing that if Latios runs HP Fire and is not scarfed, it cannot even hope to tie with the base 110s. This makes it easier to play around since you know your base 110 mon is necessarily going to outspeed it if it is able to hit, say, your Scizor or your Ferrothorn.

Just so that this post isn't a one-liner. I definitely thinks MVenu needs to drop. Too much stuff kills it, plain and simple. Metagross switches into it any day of the week, Gallade sets up on it, and do I even need to mention MMence? Also the stuff it checks got way less common etc etc. It also suffers tons of competition for the role of bulky glue that beats fairy-types on bulky offense bu MMetagross who is significantly faster, more powerful, more versatile, more powerful, and just loses less momentum. (Yes, it lacks recovery, but who needs recovery when you're busy smashing the opposing team to the ground) It's still good glue but it's a lot more likely to become a liability atm.
Garchomp also needs to drop because of Sableye if anything. Also the Speed creep hurts it quite a lot too. It was already very close to A rank and this is more than enough for it to drop.
I agree with everything except the garchomp thing. Chomp is still very effective, just not as a physical sweeper. Garchomp is one of offense's best stealth rock setters still, being able to set up hazards reliably while still keeping offensive pressure and having good synergy with a lot of offense mons, breaking down dragon resists with powerful eq's and decently strong fire blasts, and can reliably take a hit or two to switch in and set its hazards up. It can also run a bulkier set that can take hits quite well, using rough skin and rocky helmet to annoy the opponent and set up rocks, phaze with dragon tail, and still hold some offensive pressure. Garchomp deserves A rank because of its well rounded stats and ability to support offense in a variety of ways, although it can be underwhelming as a sweeper
 
Sharpedo Mega for C

IT IS WEAKER THAN LIFE ORB SHARPEDO ( Sorry for the caps )
That's all i have to say and should say to make this thing be lower, Mega Sharpedo is a pure waste of a mega, and appart from boosted Crunch, it has nothing and shouldn't be used over Sharpedo, which is an okay pokemon in OU, but nothing to extraordinary
 
Sharpedo Mega for C

IT IS WEAKER THAN LIFE ORB SHARPEDO ( Sorry for the caps )
That's all i have to say and should say to make this thing be lower, Mega Sharpedo is a pure waste of a mega, and appart from boosted Crunch, it has nothing and shouldn't be used over Sharpedo, which is an okay pokemon in OU, but nothing to extraordinary

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 152-179 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 195-229 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You sure about that, buddy?

Ice Fang is also made significantly better whereas with normal Pedo you use Ice Beam. No Life Orb recoil as well as increased defenses also make it so you won't die to a tackle which is pretty good if you ask me.
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 152-179 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 130-154 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 6.3% chance to 3HKO

Nevermind the quote about " Appart from Boosted Crunch " , huh?
 
Hey Mistress Remilia, we're talking about S and A+, Mega Sharpedo is B-. Furthermore, Mega Sharpedo is a fantastic late-game cleaner / wallbreaker, it's insanely powerful Crunch and strong Ice Fang are hard for Pokemon to switch into, plus, it can net Speed Boosts pre-Mega evolving and go to town. Its high power and Speed are definitely worthy of B-, it should not drop.
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 152-179 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 130-154 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 6.3% chance to 3HKO

Nevermind the quote about " Appart from Boosted Crunch " , huh?

Strong Jaw Ice Fang and Crunch differentiate Mega Sharpedo from its normal counterpart, as it really, really hurts most switch-ins to it. Its increase in bulk from 70/40/40 to 70/70/65 is also very noticeable, as you wont disintegrate from medium power hits like it did pre-evo. Another neat thing with its typing and bulk is with the addition of EQ, it can actually check non-Brick Break Bisharp:

252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 254-300 (93.3 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sharpedo: 198-233 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, as mentioned in the previous comment, we are currently discussing the rankings of S and A+ Rank Pokemon, so I'll end this comment here.
 
kqqyWeo.png
| A+ S |
sky-high Attack, good Speed, great natural bulk, and access to boosting moves such as Swords Dance and Agility
@_@
 
381.png

demote from s rank to a+ rank
real talk, no fluff. latios always has been, still is and will continue to be a fantastic offensive pokemon. base 130 sp.atk in tandem with moves such as stab draco meteor and psyshock pack a heavy punch against a lot of pokemon. its scarf set is unrivaled in its ability to revenge ko efficiently while specs latios is a nightmare for any foolishly unprepared team. however, similarly to keldeo, latios is not capable of the same "low risk, high reward" gameplay it could execute in xy ou. tbh, even then, leaving latios at -2 always carried a heavy risk considering the number of mons that could abuse such an opening. regardless, oras ou only exacerbates latios' flaw. mega mence is a prime example of how dangerous it is for choice'd latios variants. considering its massive bulk and the offensive capability it possesses, latios is now pressured more than ever when forced to use a move on the field. other megas such as mega diancie, mega gallade and mega metagross present a very similar problem for latios.
while there is merit to latios' defog set, i personally feel that latias performs much better thanks not only to better bulk but also access to healing wish, which is an absolute godsend of a move. all in all, using latios is more difficult than ever and i personally feel that the new oras metagame has placed too many limitations on latios in order for it to effectively perform at an s-rank level.

645-therian.png
642.png

nominating for s-rank from a+ rank
I already posted this earlier in the thread here regarding the two genies and the nomination for s-rank. there hasn't been too much generated discussion on this topic so i'll assume its been silently agreed on by the majority. just thought i'd put it out there in hopes of generating conversation about s+ and a rank, and not anything under these ranks (i'm looking at you sharpedo people)​
 
I dont know why we are talking about mega sharpedo, and more importantly I dont know why we are trash talking mega sharpedo, but I just thought I would throw out my thoughts. If you think sharpedo mega is bad, then you are bad. I damn near topped the ladder with my mega sharpedo team and it has proven to be a fantastic late game cleaner, mainly because it has added bulk to take priority hits like espeeds and the like. The boosted crunch is incredible and can almost 2hko threats like skarmory, venusaur, and ferrothorn.

To make this post actually on topic I will throw in my thoughts on latios. I think it should remain S rank. I think people are understating latios ability to cause damage, I mean LO draco is doing like 40% to metagross. But I dont want to get into this too much, so Ill just say that I think right now its best set is scarf, because it is always going to be useful and has a high reward low risk(characteristic of S rank mon) it can outspeed and KO most mons on offense and it can cripple something with trick on stall. This set in conjuction with the typical LO defog set is enough to put him in S rank.

I am also for Lando-t moving up to S rank I basically agree with everything said about him, I dont think there is a downside to using this mon at all so I dont even really think its up for discussion.
 
While I don't think this will be a permanent situation, for now I don't think lando should move up to S. As of right now, a lot of teams are running mons with ice moves that are designed to revenge mega salamence, such as banded weavile's ice shard, or scarf greninja w/ice beam. I see something like these mons on almost every team, and as long as they're around, lando is extremely exposed. As it is also 4x weak to ice, the fact that those moves are EVERYWHERE right now is a huge detriment to him. I absolutely don't think he should drop though, and honestly if mega salamence does indeed get banned I expect these pokemon to drop in usage, and at that time, I believe lando should move to S, but not right now. Lando is very useful, and is a great mon in this meta for the most part, but at this exact moment all of these ice moves running amok do hamper it's usefulness just enough that I don't think it deserves S rank. Again, I can't stress enough that I believe this to be a temporary situation, because lando IS amazing, but if we are to follow the established parameters for what an S rank mon is, then I don't believe that lando qualifies at the moment with pokemon that can OHKO him running around on almost every team.
 
Wouldn't it be better to just wait until after the game comes out and things get banned to start ranking pokemon? I get not wanting to ban anything until release, but to go ahead and start the ranking thread is kind of annoying. Most agree Salamence's existence is skewing everything, and to not wait until the release or simply ignore salamence until then is going to cause a lot of wasted re ranking.

That is, assuming anything gets banned. (I hope this is a safe assumption)
 
I don't think oras has been kind to keldeo. A lot of new stuff, after a single boost, outspeeds the scarf set. But without a scarf it can't do anything to all the naturally fast things running around (sceptile, salamence, metagross, scarf zone). Insane speed creep gives less targets for the specs set, and with lati@s basically everwhere almost everyone has a counter to keldeo without even considering it as an afterthought in teambuilding, not to mention the multitude of random checks they might have (greninja, talonflame, metagross, slowbro).
 
310-m.png
Mega Manectric definitely deserves to move from A -> A+. Its power, excellent coverage, and insane speed forces teams to have a dedicated counter and one addition Pokemon that serves as a soft check. The only Pokemon that are capable of stopping Manectric are Chansey and SDefensive Mega Charizard X. Although, Heatran, Kyurem-B, Tyranitar, Latias, Goodra, and SDefensive Mega Venusaur are all capable of checking Mega Manectric ( I may have missed some but bear with me). With little team support Mega Manectric can wear down the aforementioned Pokemon through the use of Volt Switch or its coverage moves Overheat and Hidden Power Ice. Its ability to disrupt different styles is almost on par with Greninja. It definitely deserves more credit than it's given.
 
310-m.png
Mega Manectric definitely deserves to move from A -> A+. Its power, excellent coverage, and insane speed forces teams to have a dedicated counter and one addition Pokemon that serves as a soft check. The only Pokemon that are capable of stopping Manectric are Chansey and SDefensive Mega Charizard X. Although, Heatran, Kyurem-B, Tyranitar, Latias, Goodra, and SDefensive Mega Venusaur are all capable of checking Mega Manectric ( I may have missed some but bear with me). With little team support Mega Manectric can wear down the aforementioned Pokemon through the use of Volt Switch or its coverage moves Overheat and Hidden Power Ice. Its ability to disrupt different styles is almost on par with Greninja. It definitely deserves more credit than it's given.
Don't forget M-Altaria, who stops M-Manectric cold, avoiding a 2HKO even with 0 HP and Sdef EVs, and roosting off damage.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 120-142 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 169-201 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And that's offensive M-Altaria. Against a defensive M-Alt set, it's even worse:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 90-106 (25.4 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 165-195 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
There are a lot of things that stop manectric ice cold, but that's really not how manectric functions. It's usefulness depends on how easily it can produce switch advantage, its probability of being able to clean up against very offensive teams, how many offensive threats it can keep in check or quasi-counter, and other less concrete attributes.

Juat posting that something is countered by something is excessive reduction of the nuances of the game. Rampardos should be a god if being able to 2HKO everything was the only important thing.
 
Yeah it's a technicality thing. You can only talk about stuff that's currently in A+ or S. Shame, cause Sableye/Latias need to go up pronto.

Anyway, idk how controversial these changes are, but I'll say them anyway. I think Clefable and Azu should drop to A. Both are still good mons, with Azu still being a power house and clefable a nice mixed wall or setup sweeper. However, neither are capable of checking Greninja anymore, and that was a huge reason they were so good originally. Clefable checks Mega Sableye well, so it isn't bad by any means, but it just isn't as good as other mons that deserve A+.

Similarly, I actually kinda think Landorus needs to drop. It isn't bad, but there are two big things going against it. First, Mega Latias is insanely good, and checks Landorus much better than Latias ever did, thanks to the insane defense increase + the Knock Off damage reduction. However, the main reason I think it should drop is its opportunity cost. Scarf Landorus-T is insanely good atm, and a lot of people are hard-pressed not to include it on their offensive teams, sadly leaving no room for Landorus-I. It also suffers from the big speed creep of oRaS; previously 101 was enough to outspeed the big wallbreakers (Garde, Medi, Hera), but now, there are much faster wallbreakers that landorus can't hope to outspeed (lopunny, gallade, metagross, etc). I know Landorus' speed was never a huge asset, and that it was never spectacular against offense, but it's a lot worse against it now. It has the potential to adapt with Rock Polish sets, but I still don't see them being great, since it limits your coverage, and still stops you from using one of the best mons in the tier.

Mew also needs to drop imo. Its claim to fame was as a mon that annihilated stall, but now with Mega Sableye, it can't hope to be as effective. I've also been seeing more Mega Houndoom lately, which is another hard Mew stop. There's also Camerupt, which counters Mew amazingly. Mew does appreciate the lowered influence of Charizard on the metagame, but I don't think the metagame shift was in its favor, and that A or A- is more appropriate, depending on how much usage Sableye gets (btw plz move it up already).

Speaking of the Charizards, I think X needs to drop as well. There's almost no reason to use Charizard-X as a Dragon Dancer because of MegaMence, which relegates its only real role to StallZard, which is a good set, but certainly not worth S. Pinsir also is a lot worse with Mega Mence in the tier - I'd honestly never use it. Not sure of its ranking atm - it'll move back up eventually, but I don't think its really good now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top