I kinda want stuff that fully counter it. Taunt skarmory is a good idea. I'm now running unaware chesnaught which also counters it. Bulk up is too gimmicky for me lol. Yeah the other guy's team was 6 cro-pokes, and I had a semi-stall team with 2 win setting up win conditions and that bulk up chesnaught to counter snorlax. Also why does everyone call me pangoose?
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Almost Any Ability ORAS
- Thread starter asterat
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I kinda want stuff that fully counter it. Taunt skarmory is a good idea. I'm now running unaware chesnaught which also counters it. Bulk up is too gimmicky for me lol. Yeah the other guy's team was 6 cro-pokes, and I had a semi-stall team with 2 win setting up win conditions and that bulk up chesnaught to counter snorlax. Also why does everyone call me pangoose?
Anyway offensively unaware garchomp or something similar works fine
defensively unaware cresscetera works
I used PH subseed skymin on my gimmick "omg use all the unbanned ubers" team.
It was total cancer. I once just led with it and it stalled out an entire team. PH + leech seed is probably overkill recovery, so I guess infiltrator can work to catch sub users by surprise. It seems overly specific though.
Subseed Skymin works? Well I suppose it is fast enough to likely not need Prankster, unlike Ferrothorn.
A gale wings counter is a necessity, but teams without priority, stall team especially, basically get 6-0'd straight up.
Since most stall teams have at least one Magic Bouncer or Rapid Spinner I wouldn't say they're straight up 6-0'd. Especially Magic Bounce Zapdos is a good answer to SubSeed Shaymin-s, because it resists Seed Flare and Air Slash.
while spinners can't do much (free sub / flare / etc.), magic bounce can beat it. I don't know about zapdos, because seed flare can wear it down quickly (meaning that if you don't give it a free switch (prediction battle)), meaning its a shaky counter and more of a check. Either way, a little zapdos lure can fix that pretty quickly, so with team support subseed skymin can virtually 6-0 stall teams.
Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
Chatot @ Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Chatter
- Boomburst
- Nasty Plot
- Encore
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Defog
- Roost
Tornadus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
Braviary (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
- Frustration
Honchkrow @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
Chatot @ Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Chatter
- Boomburst
- Nasty Plot
- Encore
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Defog
- Roost
Tornadus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
Braviary (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
- Frustration
Honchkrow @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit
While I'm not pushing for a straight-out ban right now, I'm going to try to start some discussion; how do you people check/counter gale wings? Because clearly, if these ladder players had counters, they didn't do their job.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-187643050
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-187652064
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-187666473
To be honest Chatot pretty much instantly invalidates any Gale Wings counter, since you pretty much have to run Soundproof, Shield Dust, or Own Tempo to reliably beat it.
Just pointing out, none of those replays are very good. The first had no counters or checks to any gale wings users, eg bad teambuilding. The second let chatot get set up and it sweep him; again not really showing the brokenness of gale wings. Finally, in the last replay the opponent just played badly, again not really proving your point. Saying that however, I agree with gale wings being overpowered. I have said before that I think gale wings should be suspected or banned, as is it basically better extremespeed spam, but was told no. I doubt they will be banned.
I usualy run stall-ish teams in AAA and never really had a problem with gale wing users (bar chatot). In the team i used most since the keldeo ban I have intimidate max def hippo + maz def ph zapdos + max def gale wing skar. And ph snorlax can easily deal with tornadus + rotom (and sometimes chatot but he usualy ends up sweeping me).
The main thing here is that if the opponent has one counter or 2 checks to common gale wing user, he will have too much pressure. And once the counter is down, the team falls apart.
Still thoses replays are really quite bad, the first one had a pretty bad team and played quite poorly (trying to set up in front of a cb mon), the second one had a counter to gale wing and a counter to rotom and decided to let both of them die for no reason and the third one just decided to let chatot set up.
But in a stall team, gale wing isn't an issue as much as adaptability or tough claws. Just having something like regen doublade is usualy enaugh to deal with it. And on most offensive team that i saw or made, there was a refrigirate Espeed.
I think right now the most broken ability in AAA is poison heal. But I really don't want it to go away.
The main thing here is that if the opponent has one counter or 2 checks to common gale wing user, he will have too much pressure. And once the counter is down, the team falls apart.
Still thoses replays are really quite bad, the first one had a pretty bad team and played quite poorly (trying to set up in front of a cb mon), the second one had a counter to gale wing and a counter to rotom and decided to let both of them die for no reason and the third one just decided to let chatot set up.
But in a stall team, gale wing isn't an issue as much as adaptability or tough claws. Just having something like regen doublade is usualy enaugh to deal with it. And on most offensive team that i saw or made, there was a refrigirate Espeed.
I think right now the most broken ability in AAA is poison heal. But I really don't want it to go away.
IMO the bigger problem is Gale Wings Chatter. Besides, "letting Chatot get set up" isn't terribly difficult to do. All it takes is a few rolls of the dice not going in your favour. That said, the one guy did not deal with it well at all.
I guess this was just a subtle attempt at a "hit two birds with one stone" approach by trying to possibly get both gale wings banned, which would nerf chatot to the point of unusable and also get rid of those annoying revenge killers. And maybe it wasn't the best idea to use replays/proof from the ever-so-bad ladder, but hey, anything that can help my case will be used. Although it didn't really work in this case because the ladder really is just that bad.
Anyways, has the council considered suspecting chatot or gale wings yet? Chatot is just flat-out uncompetitive in that it sweeps based off rng alone, and gale wings pretty much limits the metagame from ever expanding to include new threats. It's literally gotten to the point where if you don't have a physically defensive zapdos/doublade/gale wings counter on a hyper offense team, the team is unviable, unless all 6 of your pokemon have extremespeed or something.
I don't really expect Gale wings to be flat-out banned, but I at least want it to be suspected. Chatot, on the other hand, can go die.
Anyways, has the council considered suspecting chatot or gale wings yet? Chatot is just flat-out uncompetitive in that it sweeps based off rng alone, and gale wings pretty much limits the metagame from ever expanding to include new threats. It's literally gotten to the point where if you don't have a physically defensive zapdos/doublade/gale wings counter on a hyper offense team, the team is unviable, unless all 6 of your pokemon have extremespeed or something.
I don't really expect Gale wings to be flat-out banned, but I at least want it to be suspected. Chatot, on the other hand, can go die.
I'd say the best way to unbreak Gale wings would be an ability clause like BH. Not only does this prevent GW spam but also promotes creativity and diversity in the metagame. Also maybe ban chatot.
Do you guys really want Chatot banned? lol
Sure, it's annoying as fuck, but I don't think it's even close to being broken. Offensive teams are full of priority (Refrigerate/Tough Claws Extremespeed, faster Gale Wings), and defensive teams either have little trouble with it, or get haxed. It's incredibly frail, so anything that outspeeds and resists Chatter can simply defeat it if not haxed. Now you might say that that's where the sash comes in, but if using Focus Sash you can't use Substitute, leaving you open to revenge killing by priority and to status. Its Special Attack is also below average, so it can't do much except fishing for hax before a Nasty Plot boost.
I think it can be compared to Shedinja. Shedinja is far from a good pokemon in any meta except Balanced Hackmons, because of its weaknesses to common types, hazards, weather, and pursuit. It's not broken because all good teams automatically have at least one answer to it. It's the same with Chatot. What keeps it from being broken is that all teams automatically have something that can take it on. Now I don't use stall that much in AAA, so I might be wrong about stall always having something that can take it on, but as far as I know, the only way Chatot defeats stall is with an incredible amount of hax.
Yes, Chatot is uncompetitive, as it relies almost completely on luck, which might be reason to at least suspect it; but it honestly should not be and is not used on serious teams.
Sure, it's annoying as fuck, but I don't think it's even close to being broken. Offensive teams are full of priority (Refrigerate/Tough Claws Extremespeed, faster Gale Wings), and defensive teams either have little trouble with it, or get haxed. It's incredibly frail, so anything that outspeeds and resists Chatter can simply defeat it if not haxed. Now you might say that that's where the sash comes in, but if using Focus Sash you can't use Substitute, leaving you open to revenge killing by priority and to status. Its Special Attack is also below average, so it can't do much except fishing for hax before a Nasty Plot boost.
I think it can be compared to Shedinja. Shedinja is far from a good pokemon in any meta except Balanced Hackmons, because of its weaknesses to common types, hazards, weather, and pursuit. It's not broken because all good teams automatically have at least one answer to it. It's the same with Chatot. What keeps it from being broken is that all teams automatically have something that can take it on. Now I don't use stall that much in AAA, so I might be wrong about stall always having something that can take it on, but as far as I know, the only way Chatot defeats stall is with an incredible amount of hax.
Yes, Chatot is uncompetitive, as it relies almost completely on luck, which might be reason to at least suspect it; but it honestly should not be and is not used on serious teams.
The problem about Chatot is the hax factor, which people tend to hate in general. Offense usually doesn't have too much trouble, as one strong attack will kill it and they usually pack some strong priority. The real problem is stall teams, which can be beaten by a Chatot making use of confusion hax. Sure Chansey and many other stall pokemon wall it, but they will lose if the Chatot manages to make them hit themselves in confusion and sets up Nasty Plots. And after it sets up one or two Nasty Plots, stall has trouble even if they pack a faster wallbreaker such as Latios. And even if they would survive a Chatter and finish Chatot, they still have a chance to hurt themselves and die anyway next turn. This scenario is very comparable to Stabmons, where Kings Rock was banned because of giving a 50 percent chance to flinch with Cloysters priority Water Shruiken. Chatot also gives you a 50 percent chance, but instead of merely flinching you will also hurt yoursl0elf and Chatot doesnt have to attack every turn for it to happen, unlike Cloyster. Cloyster also had to face priority, but it still had the Kings Rock banned. Its not that Chatot is overpowered, its that it is very reliant and luck and will decide many games with a coin toss, making it uncompetitive. Thats why it ( or possibly just Chatter ) should be be banned. And with Shedinja, its a different story because Shedinja is not reliant on hax to do its job ( and Shedinja is good in Tier Shift as well as BH )
That's kind of the problem with chatot. Unless you use something extremely gimmicky like soundproof, it can hax its way through all your "chatot counters" like they're nothing. Unlike shedinja, which can easily be countered by simply switching out a slot for something like magma storm or infestation.
I still fail to see how that's banworthy. Anything with a move like Confuse Ray can potentially beat its counters. Of course not anything gets Chatter to do that and attack at the same time, but you get what I mean. Chatot is not a good pokemon, it can just potentially hax itself through its counters.
I know this isn't related to the present discussion, but still.
AAA stronger than BH ? This isn't even in low ladder, it was top 50, lol
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-187955431
Too make this post not entirely useless, I'll use this to talk about support dragonite. I have used it in hidden type and now in AAA and it's a really good pokemon. Counters blaziken and victini, Espeed is always nice, can defog, can heal bell, can roost and has dragon tail.
EDIT: to answer a question, I run magic guard on my dragonite. I though on running gale wing tho.
AAA stronger than BH ? This isn't even in low ladder, it was top 50, lol
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-187955431
Too make this post not entirely useless, I'll use this to talk about support dragonite. I have used it in hidden type and now in AAA and it's a really good pokemon. Counters blaziken and victini, Espeed is always nice, can defog, can heal bell, can roost and has dragon tail.
EDIT: to answer a question, I run magic guard on my dragonite. I though on running gale wing tho.
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Priority confusion hax+increased damage is the reason swagger was banned. That's literally the exact same thing as Gale wings chatter.
From how i see it, sashed chatot could win a 1v1 against any pokemon. Depending purely on luck.
For your AAA support D-nite did you have prankster? I ran a prankster support one and it worked pretty good. Roost, toxic/para, dragon tail and sub
Not exactly a great comparison. The swagger users had Foul Play, as well as some actual bulk. Klefki could actually live a hit if the opponent did not get haxed, and had a great typing. Chatot can't afford to have bulk investment, because it's way too weak without SpA ev's, and even if it does have bulk investment it's not really going to live anything.
But the extra threat to Chatot is that it can set up in the mean time and potentially sweep half your team, if not your whole team.
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