Dat Scarf doe.....
Pairing Zard X up with a Scarf Excadril just feels right.
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Pairing Zard X up with a Scarf Excadril just feels right.
master_marshmallow I don't know the extent of your troubles with Balloon Heatran that it would force you to run a suboptimal coverage move to deal with it and give up potentially more useful moves, most notably Earthquake which also deals with Balloon Heatran if you simply hit it on the switch with Dragon Claw while also hitting the Fire resistant Fairies without suffering recoil damage (particularly relevant against Azumarill). Combined with the fact that Balloon Heatran is generally much easier to deal with than the aforementioned Fairies, and I still don't see the need to ever consider Brick Break; you could probably even just lure out Heatran and pop its Balloon beforehand, like with a Draco Meteor Latios, non-mono EQ Gliscor, or even, for example, just not Scarfing your Excadrill.
But it isn't suboptimal, that's been my point the whole time.
Also, if you are predicting a switch in, why try and hit it with something like an EQ when you could switch into your Azu counter instead?
Or do good players not do that?
You can get to hit one easy-to-hit Pokemon and end up missing out on coverage on so much other threats; FIre + Dragon + Ground is overall much better coverage than Fire + Dragon + Fighting. You need so much more maintenance to cover the Fairies than covering a single variant of Heatran which is far easier to respond to, is what pretty much everyone else is saying here. Good players will recognize that letting their Charizard get walled (not for too long) by Balloon Heatran is a much better tradeoff than slightly / significantly exposing themselves to the Fairies in almost any circumstance; after all, the Fairies are much more game-ending potential than Heatran.
Edit: And pause before you start spewing out some random calcs on why "Fighting is better coverage than Ground" and list targets like Chansey or Bisharp or etc. that Charizard should have no issues handling already.
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What fairies other than Azu actual wall Zard? I thought the main thing here was that he is resistant to Flare Blitz where all the other fairies take it neutral and die, hence the wallbreaker status.
So your argument is that I should not list relevant Mons that BB hits because they are all irrelevant because fairies?
Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria wall Mega Charizard X, unless it runs Iron Tail.
So I guess it sucks to be one of those good players who run Roost.
Idk if you're being sarcastic or not, but why would you not run roost? Having reliable recovery is very useful.
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 222-262 (92.1 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Eq handles Mega Diancie nicely, as even unboosted it basically kills on the switch.
Fair enough, but DD sets usually just run dual stab and roost. I guess diancie is more of a check.
Read my post about Zard X in the team building thread to get why this whole discussion is a joke.
As far as coverage goes, ground vs fighting just comes down to preference, and a lot of people prefer to run EQ, but BB has a lot of relevant coverage, regardless of who decides to say "lol yur bad."
I personally don't like Roost because I'm either wasting a turn to get back health that I'm about to lose half or more of anyway by an attack, or I'm giving my opponent free set up. Having a third attack that doesn't force you to take recoil and then waste a turn healing gives you more offensive momentum and can be the difference in a 3KO streak or a 4 or 5KO streak to win the match.
one of the main problems with dd+3 attacks zard x was longevity, thanks to recoil, hence why earthquake being removed and roost being used has become standard as of late (happened a while ago, actually). flare blitz recoil adds up really, really quickly. also, roost allows zard x to come in multiple times during the match and roost off any rocks/recoil damage before it makes its main attempt at setting up, as flare blitz still has the ability to break walls unboosted.
and setting up in front of a zard x is not something pokemon do lol
Unless it's an Azu who had already seen you use Roost, or is predicting it, or an Alteria who doesn't fear you.
I'm not using zard x to beat azu*, nobody is, and I'm pretty sure mega altaria is 2hkoed by +1 blitz unless it runs max/max
edit: *wisp set beats non-drum azu, so i guess it could be said that it aims to lure and beat it with that set
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Name me any Pokemon Brick Break hits harder than Earthquake, and I can more or less guarantee you that they are either handled nicely by XZard already, or that EQ's damage is sufficient against them. I'll start off with physically defensive Tyranitar, which falls to Dragon Claw + Earthquake even with Leftovers, so it's not even a great switch-in to XZard. Meanwhile, if any Heatran comes in on any of XZard's STABs, it can avoid a KO from Brick Break anyway. Balloon Heatran cannot even switch in on XZard very safely; it is only a check at best.
I'm tired of arguing with you at this point; run Brick Break if you so desperately want (whether it's because of teambuilding issues or to prove a point or w/e), but the fact is Brick Break is usually not worth over any of XZard's common moves most of the time; letting Air Balloon Heatran wall you (very briefly) is a much less worse consequence than being vulnerable to not one, but THREE Fairy-types that can very easily punish you at a moment's notice.
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Bulky Mega Gyarados
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 177-208 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Brick Break vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 222-262 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if Gyarados isn't Mega Evolved yet, Zard-X can't do anything to it. Zard-X doesn't have to beat these mons; just run Chesnaught alongside it and Gyarados/T-Tar won't be a problem, and you have no reason to run Brick Break.
Just one? Alright time to debunk.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Brick Break vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 222-262 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 177-208 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There is really no difference whatsoever, and this applies to A LOT of Brick Break targets you'd care to name. If Gyarados is unevolved and has Intimidated XZard beforehand, Brick Break really won't help XZard at all.
Also goddamnit I got ninja'd
lol cant believe this discussion of bb or eq is still going on. Obviously eq is better punchshroom has proved it. lets move on.
I wanted to talk about mega gyara and what moveset he should be running. Because although crunch is a godsend, i still loved having eq to bop rotom wash with mold breaker. DD+3 attacks seems bad, but then if we ditch eq should it be for taunt or sub? so many options!! I see benefits to all of them but I was just wondering what you guys are commonly running?
I wanted to talk about mega gyara and what moveset he should be running. Because although crunch is a godsend, i still loved having eq to bop rotom wash with mold breaker. DD+3 attacks seems bad, but then if we ditch eq should it be for taunt or sub? so many options!! I see benefits to all of them but I was just wondering what you guys are commonly running?
I kind of like Sub cause you set up all over in the face of M-Sableye :). In all honesty though I think it's more team dependent than anything else. I think with Taunt you threaten Stall as a whole a bit more especially the traditional passive stall now a days that are using M-Sableye as some sort of justification that it stall-breaks by itself. Sub I find has a bit more all around usage against various playstyles. As far as the debate with Crunch or Earthquake I think it's more or less as you put it what you want to threaten more easily but again depends on the team itself. I find myself using Crunch most of the time mainly cause it also helps in breaking down M-Slowbro and if you really want to talk about situational circumstances, Mold Breaker lets it crit through M-Slowbro's Shell Armor against Double Dance variants. I occasionally run a 3 attacks/DDance set and it's not exactly terrible but I think the only reason you would ever do this is on more offensive builds that need more coverage and not as much utility. I've seen a lot more Sub variants than I do Taunt ones btw so that's just to give you an idea from my perspective.
jesus can we stop this XZard circlejerking ._.
I've actually seen a moveset of DD/Taunt/EQ/Crunch being used an MGyara by joo and Kushalos. From what I can tell this set enables you not to be revenge killed as easily as Azumarill, Greninja, and Keldeo thanks to EQ EQ and deals with the likes of Celebi and MVenu and other Grass types with Crunch while also still being able to get past more defensive stuff thanks to Taunt. You do miss out hitting bulky grounds like Hippowdon and Lando-T which is pretty annoying, as is the fact that you really can't deal any significant damage before you mega. Besides, most bulky Grounds won't really be trying to take on MGyara anyways. Taunt is very nice for stuff like MVenu/Ferro, personally I prefer Sub but denying your opponent's phazing / recovery defenitely has its merits. I'm not sure if Sub would work as well as Taunt on that set since I don't know the full details of what it actually does. It's worth noting that bulky grounds like Hippowdon really don't like Taunt. It's also worth noting they used that set with Spikes support, idk if that's a factor but yeah. That's all I really know about the set, haven't used it myself and the only times I've seen it used were really low on the ladder and it swept every match but that means nothing.
I've actually seen a moveset of DD/Taunt/EQ/Crunch being used an MGyara by joo and Kushalos. From what I can tell this set enables you not to be revenge killed as easily as Azumarill, Greninja, and Keldeo thanks to EQ EQ and deals with the likes of Celebi and MVenu and other Grass types with Crunch while also still being able to get past more defensive stuff thanks to Taunt. You do miss out hitting bulky grounds like Hippowdon and Lando-T which is pretty annoying, as is the fact that you really can't deal any significant damage before you mega. Besides, most bulky Grounds won't really be trying to take on MGyara anyways. Taunt is very nice for stuff like MVenu/Ferro, personally I prefer Sub but denying your opponent's phazing / recovery defenitely has its merits. I'm not sure if Sub would work as well as Taunt on that set since I don't know the full details of what it actually does. It's worth noting that bulky grounds like Hippowdon really don't like Taunt. It's also worth noting they used that set with Spikes support, idk if that's a factor but yeah. That's all I really know about the set, haven't used it myself and the only times I've seen it used were really low on the ladder and it swept every match but that means nothing.
That is true, but sub allows you to set up on bulky waters (scalds a bitch) and to ease prediction, but its really up to personal preference, as sub does kinda wear you down fast without lefties, so whatever.
I'd rather not. Scald is good, but not uncompetitive or metagame centralizing.
I'm a fan of Substitute, mostly because it's pretty, pretty, pretty good against weak Scalds (and Lava Plumes? IDK) that could otherwise ruin M-Gyara's fun, while simultaneously providing protection against traditional status moves. With Wish support from Chansey/Mola/Syl you don't have to worry quite so much about longevity, especially if you postpone the M-Evo to abuse Intimidate.
Taunt works really well too, though. M-Gyara is really quite bulky even without investment, so the downside to misprediction with Taunt is less than something like M-Aero.
On a related note, I found the brief M-Menceful meta to be something of a teachable moment for M-Gyara users as regards the importance of waiting to M-Evo.
I've talked myself in a circle for a bit, so I'll just sit back for a spell and request more insight in res. Sub vs. Taunt.
Personally for Gyarados I think that the taunt/ eq set is very solid. Eq hits most of what waterfall would too plus some others like T-tar and fires (break tran balloon with crunch before anyone says anything), and it still has a strong stab in Crunch to hit things like celebi with and things that are immune/ resistant to ground. There is no question that in a meta where mega sableye is literally everywhere taunt is a very good thing to have.
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