Question: now that the ORAS is here,and new megas had showed up, there is a chance to discuss about megas that now in Uber like M-Lucariu to be placed in OU? Is speed tier is nothing compared to megas like M-lophony (sory for the mistakes in writing) and a lot else, he can be checked by Talonflame and stuff, what do you think?
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I don't believe this is the place to discuss retesting. Regardless, Mega Lucario is extremely broken and should be as far away from OU as possible. The new speed tiers mean nothing to Lucario because of extreme speed and adaptability vacuum wave. Talonflame and most of the new faster megas are OHKO'd by a +2 extreme speed. Lopunny is the only one that isn't outright OHKO'd but it takes 72% minimum. Anything unfortunate enough to be slower than the 110 speed tier (which is like 85% of the meta) is absolutely blown away by adaptability CC. The ease at which Lucario 6-0s teams is just plain stupid and it should honestly never be back to OU.
I really like this spread, I would add Brick Break to the list of possible moves for slot number 4, as it gives basically the same coverage as EQ, but hits other things effectively. +1 BB takes out Heatran regardless of whether or not it carries an Air Balloon, and also works on bulky rock and steel types that you would want to hit with EQ, but it can also take out normal types like Eviolite Chansey.
Alright i guess you are right,he is very strong now to, thanks :)
You miss out on Quagsire if you run Dragon Claw, since you can never 2HKO.
Nothing has really changed about them so it is unlikely the banned mega's are gonna be retested but before we can unban mons from Ubers the metagame must first become acceptably balanced.
Brick Break is a terrible option on Zard X because it hits nothing notable that Flare Blitz + EQ hit and is piss-poor weak. Balloon Heatran isnt a problem simple because +1 Dragon Claw is a 3HKo and can pop the Balloon for EQ to clean up the next turn.
Ummmm do you math?
I wouldn't call it piss-poor weak as it has only bit lower power than EQ since it gets tough claw boost.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 135-160 (35 - 41.5%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Um I thought we were talking about Brick Break, also 3HKO means you are gonna get hit by an Earth Power, and die.
So I explicitly stated that Dragon Claw was a 3HKO, and you somehow come to the conclusion that we're talking about Brick Break? The only portion of my post that mentioned it was the part where I said that Flare Blitz + EQ covers everything Brick Break hits.
Regardless, not only is Air Ballon Heatran uncommon, but it's also not something you should stay in on anyways. And even if it comes down to Zard X being your last, Zard X wins 1v1 because Earth Power is only a 2HKO, even when Heatran has max SAtk investment and a Modest Nature. (252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 248-292 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) One specific set on one mon is not a reason to run a suboptimal move when any decently built team based on DD Zard X will have multiple ways of popping Heatran's Balloon, or outright killing it.
Why do you run 252 speed? Is there anything that neutral 252 ev base 100 speed specifically outspeeds or is it at +2?
Some hp EVs can go a long way in turning some Ohkos into 2hkos and getting past priority.
It outspeed 252+ base 86 and obviously ties with 252 neutral base 100.
184 speed EVs just enough to outspeed neutral 252 lando-T seems good to me. Speed creeping or tying with other CharX should be mentioned but not in the set itself.
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That's exactly my point, 3HKO vs 2HKO means he will get you first, plus you are assuming zero prior damage from, idk, Flare Blitz recoil? Rocks? Heatran is sent in a either a check or revenge killer and in both cases he puts CharX in a position where he will die at least one turn sooner and get at least one less KO because you settled on using a 3HKO move instead of an OHKO. Roost be damned if you don't have an extra turn to use it.
BB actually has more SE coverage than EQ, which is why I recommend it, being able to OHKO Air Balloon Tran just happens to be a perk. Essentially, I'm saying fighting coverage is better than ground coverage because poison types are uncommon in OU and most electric types are either unable to be hit by EQ anyway like Rotom, Zapdos, and Thundrous, but the ones that can die just as easily from +1BB like Magnezone and Manectric.
Not only is brick break a bad coverage move in general, it is redundant with dragon/fire coverage. Your only example is a non popped ballon 252+ spAtk earthpower heatran. Earthquake hits the 4 mons that resist his Stabs in the tier: (Mega) Diancie, Heatran, Azumarill and Mega Altaria.
I've never really thought about it before, but could brick break be a legitimate option on a jolly dd charizard x? I agree that brick break is clearly inferior to earthquake on any set with just two attacking moves (such as wow set) but not necessarily three and heres why. Factoring in tough claws, brick break and earthquake are just as powerful as each other. Secondly, the only pokemon charizard x would ever use either for would be Heatran and Tyranitar. Now, Tyranitar is less common and is neutral to Dragon Claw, meaning Heatran is more important for Charziard X to beat. Earthquake can easily ohko Heatran, however, some Heatran run Air Balloon. This isnt really a problem because the ballon could easily be popped by dragon claw on the switch in or by a teammate. But, this means that Charizard X cannot dd as Heatran switches in and be guaranteed to beat Heatran unscathed. Yes, dd earthquake zard x could dd as air balloon heatran switch in and still win. But, this means that it would have to take one hit. And if that one hit is a toxic or a roar the sweep is most likely over. So while dd earthquake zard x can easily beat balloon heatran, it either has to take a potential toxic or roar or fail to setup a dd on it. With brick break insetad of earthquake, Charizard X could always dd on the switch and then deliver a +1 brick break which with a jolly nature and 252 atk evs has a 56.3% to ohko 248hp Heatran after rocks (iirc). With brick break, the balloon would make no difference. However, even at +1 it is still not a guaranteed ohko and earthquake has the benefit of being a guaranteed ohko without a boost. So as I see it, Brick Brick and Earthquake have their own advantages against Heatran. As for Tyranitar, Brick Break will usually ohko (always at +1) depending on the set while even at +1 Earthquake cannot ohko Tyranitar (iirc). In conclusion, both Brick Break and Earthquake have their benefits on jolly dd zard x. What I don't get is why nobody ever mentions Brick Break. Am I missing something?
What you are missing is the existence of Diancie and Azumarill. I guess you could run Brick Break if those two are covered, but you can never really be overprepared for both Azumarill and MDiancie
Because Azumarill and Mega Altaria resist BB but EQ hits them for neutral damage.
You are missing Azumarill, Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria. While resisted Flare blitz does slightly more damage than neutral earthquake, it puts you in KO range of a lot of things.
For example:
Av Azumarill (weakest set)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 163-193 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 73-87 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 241-284 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (241-284)
Recoil=80-94=22.2%-26.2%
Max rolls: 53.7+24.2+26.2=104.1. And that is without rocks. Basically, not having EQ forces flare blitz which is equivalent to stealth rocks damage.
And now CB Azumarill can revenge a full health +1 charX with play rough without having roost to just switch and stay healthy. No thanks.
PS: Note that I used the most beneficial CharX set in this scenario with 248 hp EVs.
For example:
Av Azumarill (weakest set)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 163-193 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 73-87 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 241-284 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (241-284)
Recoil=80-94=22.2%-26.2%
Max rolls: 53.7+24.2+26.2=104.1. And that is without rocks. Basically, not having EQ forces flare blitz which is equivalent to stealth rocks damage.
And now CB Azumarill can revenge a full health +1 charX with play rough without having roost to just switch and stay healthy. No thanks.
PS: Note that I used the most beneficial CharX set in this scenario with 248 hp EVs.
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I would probably go 200 Spe EVs to outspeed Jolly Metagross and Gallade before mega evolution.
So his counters counter him?
Why would you stay in on Azu or Alteria? Of you are basing the choice on the 4th slot coverage move on hitting direct counters, why use a neutral move that can't even OHKO? BB has more SE coverage than EQ and it hits the same SE targets with comparable damage.
Air Balloon Tran is a lot more common than people who don't share my opinion admit, mostly because it proves me right.
It's an option, and a viable one.
Also, if you want a coverage move that hits his counters, Iron Tail smashes Diancie, Altaria, and hits Azu for neutral. Plus, Tough Claws. Steel is garbage coverage though, unlike fighting. Fighting is also better coverage than ground.
The idea isn't to stay in, it's to hit them on the switch. In the case of Azumarill, EQ is going to more often than not keep him out of Bellydrum range. As for Mega Altaria. Best case you catch it before it Mega Evos and take it out with a Dragon move, worse case you EQ and it takes decent damage.
I guess if you aren't worried about those two and really hate TTar, I can see going with BB over EQ
EDIT: Iron Tail is a nice idea, but that accuracy......
Steel Wing has better accuracy, but garbage damage, it does get the Tough Claws boost though, so for a coverage move it's Meh.
Besides, I personally find EQ to be less necessary on Zard because I also run a Mold Breaker Excadril, who btw also has dat Steel coverage for Alteria and Diancie, as well as hazard control.
Azumarril is still a bitch tho, probably why it's ranked so high.
I use CharY so I know that Azu is a bitch feels.
Exca is a great counter for everything that hurts either Zard, I just find its speed to be its downfall
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