Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[n64lord]

I saw a chargebeam / Dazzling gleam / Psyshock / (probbably thot) on an assault vest meloetta. It looked pretty fun for an okay number of things that would come in on him, espeically since it's boring old evs could still be used to tank the same special attackers it usually does and can be get clericed by mew/latias/, either of whom can be EVd for several physical threats to complement him.

I changed my diggersby to double dance to capitilize on opponet's unable to remove smeargle's sticky web, and gave smeargle memento as its 4th move to get him in even more. Unfortunately this leads to me going for a late rocks instead of leading with smeargle, but I didn't mind too much. I suspect it's only really going to have an effect in matches normal already did go0d in, but I don't really care.

 

[Acast]

Not many water/dark type pokes are capable of replacing Greninja.
It's best to nerf it than to just ban it to Ubers.

Even if it doesn't have a replacement on either type, both Dark and Water will easily be able to manage without it. They are two of the strongest types right now and have great options to use in place of the ninja frog.
Also, using your logic we could just ban Extremespeed and a few other moves on Arceus and make it playable in Normal teams. I was in your situation back when they were suspecting Aegislash for OU. I desperately wanted it to stay OU, so I suggested that they just ban the use of the move King's Shield instead of banning the Pokemon. I know where you're coming from, but the logic you're using just isn't going to work when it comes to bans such as this. The point of monotype is to adapt to any disadvantages that come your way, whether that's a matchup against a team that you're weak to or having an integral member of your team banned. The truly good monotype players will adapt their teams to account for the loss of Greninja (if it happens to get banned) and they'll probably come out with a team that's almost as good. And if Water or Dark can't be as successful without Greninja as they were with Greninja, then it's not much of an issue because both Water and Dark are top tier right now, so they can afford to drop a little bit. It's not like we'll be nerfing Electric or Rock, which are already towards the bottom of the usage statistics iirc.

 

[SuperShape]

Just because your a Greninja fanboy doesn't mean that people wouldn't want it Banned if it's deemed Broken. Stop flooding the Thread with weak Post

You're not thinking about both sides here.
And I never said I was a fanboy.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

You're not thinking about both sides here.
And I never said I was a fanboy.

Your acting like a fanboy. I came to this conclusion because I do indeed understand your side, and even then I think your reasoning is dumb. "[Don't Ban Greninja because people rely on it" and "because nothing else can do it's job"? As if it defined the Dark Monotype. Get real. Your argument is weak and implausible. Sorry, not trying to be mean, but I suggest you take my earlier suggestion and reserve the Bantalk for at least a month. When you've experienced the Metagame and have had more time to form a stronger argument, I'm all ears. Until then, it'd be best to drop this discussion as of now.

 

[DoW]

...If someone's going to troll, then answering them's only feeding the trolls. I think plenty has been said to the extent that if they continue to argue the point, they're trolling. And in any case, there's more important discussions to be had, such as the new megas, whether mega medicham still needs a suspect, whether greninja needs a suspect, and so forth. I'll start us off.

Does the fact that the new mega audino can't wall mega medi mean it still needs a suspect test? Or is it less broken to the extent that it's not in need of a suspect any more? The new mega metagross makes it potentially less dangerous for steel, although from what I've seen types such as rock still suffer when faced with it.

 

[Tyke]

...If someone's going to troll, then answering them's only feeding the trolls. I think plenty has been said to the extent that if they continue to argue the point, they're trolling. And in any case, there's more important discussions to be had, such as the new megas, whether mega medicham still needs a suspect, whether greninja needs a suspect, and so forth. I'll start us off.

Does the fact that the new mega audino can wall mega medi mean it still needs a suspect test? Or is it less broken to the extent that it's not in need of a suspect any more? The new mega metagross makes it potentially less dangerous for steel, although from what I've seen types such as rock still suffer when faced with it.

Saying Mega-Audino can "wall" mega-medicham is extremely tentative.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 217-256 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (edited BST on wigglytuff obviously)

Wish/Protect mind games or the possible use of dazzling gleam aside, Mega-Audino can't wall mega-cham very well.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

...If someone's going to troll, then answering them's only feeding the trolls. I think plenty has been said to the extent that if they continue to argue the point, they're trolling. And in any case, there's more important discussions to be had, such as the new megas, whether mega medicham still needs a suspect, whether greninja needs a suspect, and so forth. I'll start us off.

Does the fact that the new mega audino can wall mega medi mean it still needs a suspect test? Or is it less broken to the extent that it's not in need of a suspect any more? The new mega metagross makes it potentially less dangerous for steel, although from what I've seen types such as rock still suffer when faced with it.

Again "I'd say postpone the Bantalk for now, and instead share cool Sets for the new Megas, how the Tier has changed due to them, and how awesome it is that Nani Man is finally back." because "at least a month should pass before we officially have Bantalk [in order] to give us time to thoroughly learn the new Metagame and form solid arguments". Yes, this should apply to XY Megas too, they interact with this Meta differently. And no, I don't think anything as of now is blatantly Broken. That's including Megacham. Normal has options if it wants to deal with it. Rock, Steel, and Ice will run the Sets used to handle it regardless if it's Banned or not, so nor do I think it's worth discussing because of that.

 

[DoW]

Saying Mega-Audino can "wall" mega-medicham is extremely tentative.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wigglytuff: 217-256 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (edited BST on wigglytuff obviously)

Wish/Protect mind games or the possible use of dazzling gleam aside, Mega-Audino can't wall mega-cham very well.

Sorry for the typo, I meant to say can't. I blame the fact that I haven't slept properly in over 60 hours <_<

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 217-256 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: Orite you even posted the calc already. Time for me to go to bed, evidently.

 

[Anttya]

/ban Dow & Fail, Go. To. Sleep. >:(

Anyways, I'd like to share this Mega Metagross set for Steel teams, its 110 speed lets it outspeed all of Steel's greatest threats (Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus-I, Medicham etc) and 1-2KO with the appropriate move.

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body -> Tough Claws
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch / W.e

Clear Body is amazing since Lando-T can't switch in and Intimidate you the turn you mega.
Meteor Mash is a spammable STAB that could get you that +1 Atk
Zen Headbutt is mandatory for Fighting types such as Keldeo and Terrakion. Since Metagross takes neutral damage from Water and Fighting, it can easily come in, outspeed, then KO.
Earthquake prevents you from being walled by other Fighting / Steel types. Great coverage move along w/ Zen + Meteor Mash
Ice Punch hits birds (namely Lando-T & I) hard. However, it isn't that important so you can swap it out for what you want to cover.

Edit: Forgot to say that this is still hardwalled by stuff like Skarm, but Heatran takes care of that ezpz.

Felt like saying something other than "BAN __" :]

 

[Croven]

Bit off topic, but I'd like to show off one set that we all know, but probably have never used in our lives before for Landorus-T. And by that I mean the Double Dance set. I posted it in the viability rankings, but at the time, I didn't realize just how good it actually is. It smashes through a TON of types, such as Flying, Fairy, Fire, Steel, Poison, Electric (depending on how much HP Ice is around), maybe Ground, and definitely a few that I'm forgetting. Take a look:

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EV's: 56 HP/ 220 Atk/ 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Swords Dance
-Rock Polish
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge

Swords Dance to break through bulkier teams, Rock Polish to outspeed and clean up offensive teams. If you manage to get up both....GG. Standard EdgeQuake coverage is standard and good, so don't change it imo. LandT is already really bulky, especially with Intimidate, so you should have no problem setting up on any type that isn't SE to you, or doesn't commonly carry moves that are SE to you. Even priority isn't that much of a big deal to you (unless Ice Shard ofc) because Landorus's bulk is stellar. Even Aqua Jet from a non-Banded Azu doesn't do an extremely dangerous amount:

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 174-206 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since LandT usually sets up on forced switches and doesn't take too much damage, so that damage is pitiful. Once you set up that SD, not even Skarmory can wall you reliably (fuck misses):

+2 220+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-171 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And then keep in mind that (at least on ladder and tours) most Skarmories run Rocky Helmet, so that chance to 2HKO will turn into a near 100% chance to 2HKO. I can hardly think of anything that walls this set, so just set up and go.

One thing to keep in mind is that even though LandT has great bulk with Intimidate, if the opponent has solid priority remaining (Scizor BP, Azu AJ, Pinsir QA, Mawile Sucker, etc.) it's best to either get it in on a sac or a Volt Switch/U-Turn. I personally use this set on a more offensive team, so it's kind of easier to distinguish what's useless in a battle and what's not, so I know what to sac to get Lando in safely.

One thing to note is that you lose out on some great qualities LandT has. It is a great SR'er and momentum provider with U-Turn, and its great bulk can be a key check to Terrakion and Excadrill in times of need (for Flying ofc, since I never see LandT on Ground, LandI is far more common), so you need to be able to have teammates cover that weakness. It is less self sufficient than the defensive set, or even the Scarf set, but it is incredibly threatening to any team, and can tear through them mid/late game with ease, so go and test this set out now! While the offer still lasts!

Will add replays when I get on my other laptop tomorrow or later today, look forward to them .3.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-monotype-1200023 against a dark mono, extremely annoying....

EDIT: EV's I stole from the Smogon analysis (what is creativity) and IIRC it was outspeeding Exca in Sand after a RP, and living 2 LO Exca's Iron Heads, and rest in Attack (Exca was some serious shit man). If someone has a better EV spread tailored for mono, I would appreciate it.

Felt like saying something other than "BAN __" :]

WTF Ant I was about to do that, way to steal my limelight <.<

 

[Tyke]

/ban Dow & Fail, Go. To. Sleep. >:(

Anyways, I'd like to share this Mega Metagross set for Steel teams, its 110 speed lets it outspeed all of Steel's greatest threats (Keldeo, Terrakion, Landorus-I, Medicham etc) and 1-2KO with the appropriate move.

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch / W.e

Clear Body is amazing since Lando-T can't switch in and Intimidate you the turn you mega.
Meteor Mash is a spammable STAB that could get you that +1 Atk
Zen Headbutt is mandatory for Fighting types such as Keldeo and Terrakion. Since Metagross takes neutral damage from Water and Fighting, it can easily come in, outspeed, then KO.
Earthquake prevents you from being walled by other Fighting / Steel types. Great coverage move along w/ Zen + Meteor Mash
Ice Punch hits birds (namely Lando-T & I) hard. However, it isn't that important so you can swap it out for what you want to cover.

Felt like saying something other than "BAN __" :]

>Felt like saying something other than "BAN __" :]

What blasphemy is this??? >:3

On that note...

Bulky Cleric:
Mega-Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Bold Nature
- Heal Bell
- Hyper Voice
- Roost
- Fire Blast/Toxic

Bulky Dragon Dance:
Mega-Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Earthquake/Substitute
- Frustration

These are just the two Mega-Altaria sets I've had success with. The EVs on the second set are highly up to personal opinion though c:

 

[Crazy Horse]

Sableye has magic bounce, which ditto copies, so ditto can actually burn sableye if it switches in on willo. Also, where exactly is sableye going to run taunt? Assuming a cm variant, that's cm/recover/willo/attacking move. If it doesn't run willo, it's going to get steamrolled by physical attackers. If it isn't a cm variant, it isn't going to be sweeping anything, and will fall to stronger special attacks.

Magic Bounce only activates once. If ditto switches in on will o wisp it bounces back to sableye which bounces back to ditto.
In the end ditto gets burned.

 

[Freeroamer]

If we're talking about cool sets to run, I wouldn't say it's a particular Pokemon or set that I'm fond of it on, but I've recently loved just throwing Substitute on offensive Pokemon on my teams, the likes of Excadrill, Greninja and Landorus force so many switches due to only having one opposing check on enemy teams due to the way teams have to be built in Monotype, and often using a Substitute on a predicted switch allows you to wear down said check so you can go ham on it. It's also a nice failsafe vs Sucker Punch spam, from things like Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Honchkrow and even stuff like the rare Toxicroak. Just be careful when you use it, especially if the mon you use it on has no form of recovery, cos there's no point subbing with an exca when there's a perfectly healthy Skarmory or Mandibuzz on the opposing team, because they'll just Whirlwind you out or break the sub and roost off any damage you do in the process. A seriously cool move.

 

[Acast]

Magic Bounce only activates once. If ditto switches in on will o wisp it bounces back to sableye which bounces back to ditto.
In the end ditto gets burned.

Either you typed something that you didn't intend to, or you don't understand how Magic Bounce works. The Will-o-wisp will only bounce once, so if Mega Sableye uses Will-o-wisp on a Ditto, the Ditto will bounce the Will-o-wisp back to Sableye. Sableye is the one that gets burned if it uses it on an opposing Magic Bounce pokemon. I tested it out to make sure. Here's the replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189198024

 

[Crazy Horse]

I brought this argument up in chat last night, and I'm still yet to receive a decent answer to it, if the numerous Flying users in this thread believe that there are things like Mega Sableye and Greninja that are broken and are worthy of a suspect, and yet Flying is still the dominant type despite these things being in the meta, how by further extension is Flying itself broken and not in need of balancing? Remember the point of suspecting and potentially banning things in Monotype is to try and make each type equally viable and I fail to see how we are doing that by constantly suggesting the suspect of things that will only make Flying stronger, while not discussing how Flying could be balanced. Just my thoughts.

(Note: not trying to call anyone out or anything like that, I just want to see if anyone has a good response to the above as I am yet to hear one)

EDIT: Also 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Slowbro takes physical hits better than 252 HP / 252+ Def Bro with lefties factored in so I can understand that spread for the CM set, it acts as a better mixed wall throughout games where you don't have the opportunity to CM up right away as well as providing more setup opportunities. Ik it seems counterproductive when CM boosts SpDef anyway, but I've rarely found I've needed any extra physical bulk.

In my honest opinion flying is pretty close to a perfectly balanced type. First of all it's a pretty bad argument because it follows this logic.
X is supposedly broken
yet Y is still used a lot despite X being supposedly broken
Y is broken
Now the 2nd Premises is where you run into issues. They have no correlation whatsoever. I'm not just gonna discredit the argument though, I'm going to treat it as if it were valid.
My list of why its balanced and doesn't even deserve the slightest nerf:
> It isn't over centralizing

> Top Tier = Broken? If you want to argue flying is TOO good I'm happy to debate that
>> 50/50s: Usually to deal with bolt beam flying has to make a play to avoid a poke fainting now unlike steel mono it is just choosing a lesser evil not complete immunity.
>> Flying mono has restrictive team building already especially for high level play. Examples
>>> Stall: Sp.Def Gyara, TankZard, ZapKiss those are 4 pokemon that are arguably must haves if you even want to even think about playing stall
>>> Balanced: Zapdos/Togekiss, a lando form(usually T), Scarf Thundy-t
>>> HO: (I have a HO Flying team but I'm not sure if there is a common standard so I'm just gonna ignore this one.)
>> Just because it is popular doesn't make it broken. It can be a fairly fun to use, easy to make monotype. Nothing in particular that's broken.

> Tbh I think a lot of people use flying as a scapegoat for Monotype's Unbalances or just don't like generic and just jumping on a bandwagon of hate :^)
>> Monotype took months to ban Damp Rock a thing A LOT of people agreed on banning. We were just too slow and ineffective with the tier I blame it with the logic decided with the banning : "It doesn't seem we are all in agreement sooo..." It should have been what was the stronger argument.

> It's so damn generic, like most flying teams will usually take the balanced approach and preparing for that usually means preparing for all flying teams you'll encounter

> Why are we Focused about flying when it is undeniably good, but not game breaking. To be honest the higher priorities should be these blatantly obvious broken pokes.

Enough of that though. The thing about wait for us all to come in agreement did make me a bit upset. There were plenty of strong posts in favor of banning Skymin, Kyu-W(I don't think it served its purpose), Genesect, Megawile and etc.

Since you bring up old arguments let me bring up one that I have restated atleast twice without any challenge from Pro-Unban.

Unlike other OMs monotype is a restriction of OU rather than an extension(No new mechanics). So please justify any unban in the sense of this one statement.
What makes it broken in OU and how that doesn't apply to it in Monotype.

Mega-Mawile was banned due to lack of counter, Having the highest attack in the game, Fantastic Typing allowing easy +2 sweeps.

Mawilite: 68 Ban 19 Do Not Ban = 78.2% Uber vote

> In mono it has even less available counters
> Adding broken pokemon to a metagame can't be good
>>Saying because steel needs it isn't a valid argument
> It's Game Sweeping potential soars due to less available revenge killers depending on match up
> More Set up opportunity

Ah I already made my argument with Skymin relating to this:

Oh and even if that was a real argument seeing how skymin is the first Unanimous Vote Ban in Smogon OU History. I think its Broken Level speaks for itself.

Before in Grass vs Water it would be a pretty competitive matchup as long as the water user had something for Mega Venusaur. Now with Skymin they have to bank on Sap Sipper Azu not getting flinced to death. Seeing how Sap Sipper azu is niche in the first place, if they don't have it they are screwed. There is literally nothing they can do. Even if they come up with some miracle strat Skymin's teammates will handle it without much effort.

vs Ice. Another "Fun" Matchup. If ice isn't packing an ice sharder to force skymin out it can just flinch the entire competition to death. Rotom-F does give it some problems but isn't a fan of taking Seed Flares at -2.

vs Ground. LOL gl with that. This poke makes grass vs ground so one sided its not even funny. Ground already had limited teambuilding as mid-tier monotype but now it has an auto-loss clause in Skymin.

vs Fire. Rotom-H forces Skymin out but is completely walled by Mega Venusaur and Cradily. Even then if its SubSeed Skymin Rotom-H loses. Fire has nothing to stop this monster.

In summary Skymin doesn't make things equally viable at all. It's just a broken mon' that negatively effects the meta. Besides Sweeping types either through lack of counters / solid revenge killers and pure hax how does it benefit the tier.

I'll restate it once again hopefully with a rebuttal
What makes it broken in OU and how that doesn't apply to it in Monotype.

 

[DoW]

In my honest opinion flying is pretty close to a perfectly balanced type. First of all it's a pretty bad argument because it follows this logic.
X is supposedly broken
yet Y is still used a lot despite X being supposedly broken
Y is broken
Now the 2nd Premises is where you run into issues. They have no correlation whatsoever. I'm not just gonna discredit the argument though, I'm going to treat it as if it were valid.
My list of why its balanced and doesn't even deserve the slightest nerf:
> It isn't over centralizing

> Top Tier = Broken? If you want to argue flying is TOO good I'm happy to debate that
>> 50/50s: Usually to deal with bolt beam flying has to make a play to avoid a poke fainting now unlike steel mono it is just choosing a lesser evil not complete immunity.
>> Flying mono has restrictive team building already especially for high level play. Examples
>>> Stall: Sp.Def Gyara, TankZard, ZapKiss those are 4 pokemon that are arguably must haves if you even want to even think about playing stall
>>> Balanced: Zapdos/Togekiss, a lando form(usually T), Scarf Thundy-t
>>> HO: (I have a HO Flying team but I'm not sure if there is a common standard so I'm just gonna ignore this one.)
>> Just because it is popular doesn't make it broken. It can be a fairly fun to use, easy to make monotype. Nothing in particular that's broken.

> Tbh I think a lot of people use flying as a scapegoat for Monotype's Unbalances or just don't like generic and just jumping on a bandwagon of hate :^)
>> Monotype took months to ban Damp Rock a thing A LOT of people agreed on banning. We were just too slow and ineffective with the tier I blame it with the logic decided with the banning : "It doesn't seem we are all in agreement sooo..." It should have been what was the stronger argument.

> It's so damn generic, like most flying teams will usually take the balanced approach and preparing for that usually means preparing for all flying teams you'll encounter

> Why are we Focused about flying when it is undeniably good, but not game breaking. To be honest the higher priorities should be these blatantly obvious broken pokes.

Enough of that though. The thing about wait for us all to come in agreement did make me a bit upset. There were plenty of strong posts in favor of banning Skymin, Kyu-W(I don't think it served its purpose), Genesect, Megawile and etc.

Since you bring up old arguments let me bring up one that I have restated atleast twice without any challenge from Pro-Unban.

Unlike other OMs monotype is a restriction of OU rather than an extension(No new mechanics). So please justify any unban in the sense of this one statement.
What makes it broken in OU and how that doesn't apply to it in Monotype.

Mega-Mawile was banned due to lack of counter, Having the highest attack in the game, Fantastic Typing allowing easy +2 sweeps.

> In mono it has even less available counters
> Adding broken pokemon to a metagame can't be good
>>Saying because steel needs it isn't a valid argument
> It's Game Sweeping potential soars due to less available revenge killers depending on match up
> More Set up opportunity

Ah I already made my argument with Skymin relating to this:


In summary Skymin doesn't make things equally viable at all. It's just a broken mon' that negatively effects the meta. Besides Sweeping types either through lack of counters / solid revenge killers and pure hax how does it benefit the tier.

I'll restate it once again hopefully with a rebuttal
What makes it broken in OU and how that doesn't apply to it in Monotype.

Hmm, I am starting to agree with people saying flying's less broken than might be thought. Not only do I think that any ban other than Lando-I would have very little effect on it (Zard X can be replaced with MGyara or Zard Y depending on your needs), but I also checked my stats and found not as big a gap as I'd anticipated for the winrates.

>>> winrate(0,'Flying',1)
At a Glicko of 0 or higher, Flying wins 9076 of 16229 games. (0.5592457945652843)
>>> winrate(1500,'Flying',1)
At a Glicko of 1500 or higher, Flying wins 4073 of 7384 games. (0.5515980498374865)
>>> winrate(1600,'Flying',1)
At a Glicko of 1600 or higher, Flying wins 1233 of 2344 games. (0.5260238907849829)

The fact that the winrates for flying actually go down at higher levels of play also indicates that much of the disadvantage comes from players simply not preparing their teams for flying or knowing how to beat it. Note these stats are now definitely out of date, however I don't think flying's actually become any more powerful in any way since they were taken.
Looking at the last stat there, among higher-level players 52.6% of games played by flying were won. Now, while that shows us flying has a distinct advantage, it's only a 2.5% higher winrate than other types. Perhaps it's that low partially due to restricting teambuilding options, but honestly I don't think it's that so much as everything on flying being counterable by the vast majority of types, and at higher levels they are countering those things. And as rors said, BoltBeam is a constant nuisance for flying, not to mention the amount of rock moves everywhere.
I think the weakness to a common set of moves shouldn't be underestimated. The weakness to edgequake is, in my opinion, fire's biggest weakness because suddenly one fast attacker carrying those two very common moves can do a whole load of damage. Moreover, balanced flying (which many consider to be the most powerful) seems good for the meta to me due to causing types to run more bulk and less offense, reducing the viability of sets which in honesty shouldn't be viable, such as scarf greninja.

But mostly, I think the meta just has to settle down around flying. I don't think a particularly strong argument against Zard X can be made right now, that's not to say it shouldn't be banned. It's just to say that we should wait to see how it turns out.


As for how quickly monotype's getting things done, the MegaMence ban was pretty swift. I think now Nani's in charge of tiering and back again, things aren't going to be as slow as they were. But yeah, we should be focussing on other things right now.

 

[feen]

Bit off topic, but I'd like to show off one set that we all know, but probably have never used in our lives before for Landorus-T. And by that I mean the Double Dance set. I posted it in the viability rankings, but at the time, I didn't realize just how good it actually is. It smashes through a TON of types, such as Flying, Fairy, Fire, Steel, Poison, Electric (depending on how much HP Ice is around), maybe Ground, and definitely a few that I'm forgetting. Take a look:

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EV's: 56 HP/ 220 Atk/ 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Swords Dance
-Rock Polish
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge

Swords Dance to break through bulkier teams, Rock Polish to outspeed and clean up offensive teams. If you manage to get up both....GG. Standard EdgeQuake coverage is standard and good, so don't change it imo. LandT is already really bulky, especially with Intimidate, so you should have no problem setting up on any type that isn't SE to you, or doesn't commonly carry moves that are SE to you. Even priority isn't that much of a big deal to you (unless Ice Shard ofc) because Landorus's bulk is stellar. Even Aqua Jet from a non-Banded Azu doesn't do an extremely dangerous amount:

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 174-206 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since LandT usually sets up on forced switches and doesn't take too much damage, so that damage is pitiful. Once you set up that SD, not even Skarmory can wall you reliably (fuck misses):

+2 220+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-171 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And then keep in mind that (at least on ladder and tours) most Skarmories run Rocky Helmet, so that chance to 2HKO will turn into a near 100% chance to 2HKO. I can hardly think of anything that walls this set, so just set up and go.

One thing to keep in mind is that even though LandT has great bulk with Intimidate, if the opponent has solid priority remaining (Scizor BP, Azu AJ, Pinsir QA, Mawile Sucker, etc.) it's best to either get it in on a sac or a Volt Switch/U-Turn. I personally use this set on a more offensive team, so it's kind of easier to distinguish what's useless in a battle and what's not, so I know what to sac to get Lando in safely.

One thing to note is that you lose out on some great qualities LandT has. It is a great SR'er and momentum provider with U-Turn, and its great bulk can be a key check to Terrakion and Excadrill in times of need (for Flying ofc, since I never see LandT on Ground, LandI is far more common), so you need to be able to have teammates cover that weakness. It is less self sufficient than the defensive set, or even the Scarf set, but it is incredibly threatening to any team, and can tear through them mid/late game with ease, so go and test this set out now! While the offer still lasts!

Will add replays when I get on my other laptop tomorrow or later today, look forward to them .3.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-monotype-1200023 against a dark mono, extremely annoying....

EDIT: EV's I stole from the Smogon analysis (what is creativity) and IIRC it was outspeeding Exca in Sand after a RP, and living 2 LO Exca's Iron Heads, and rest in Attack (Exca was some serious shit man). If someone has a better EV spread tailored for mono, I would appreciate it.


WTF Ant I was about to do that, way to steal my limelight <.<

I used this set in the ladder, and it really works well, but the set up takes turns, and requires to play perfectly. It's a great, underrated set, but it has drawbacks.

 

[Antar]

Hey, Articuno I (and others). Just so you all know, winrate is a really shitty metric, due to the fact that PS makes every attempt to matchmake players of like skill. What you *really* want is average GXE, since GXE corresponds to the expected winrate of a player on a ladder with no matchmaking. Articuno I, I believe you have the raw data for that for what ever month that data was from. I'm going to try to get you guys up-to-date information (based on November's stats) as well.

 

[Dirpz]

Hey, Articuno I (and others). Just so you all know, winrate is a really shitty metric, due to the fact that PS makes every attempt to matchmake players of like skill. What you *really* want is average GXE, since GXE corresponds to the expected winrate of a player on a ladder with no matchmaking. Articuno I, I believe you have the raw data for that for what ever month that data was from. I'm going to try to get you guys up-to-date information (based on November's stats) as well.

Thank you Based Antar!

 

[scpinion]

Unlike other OMs monotype is a restriction of OU rather than an extension(No new mechanics). So please justify any unban in the sense of this one statement.
What makes it broken in OU and how that doesn't apply to it in Monotype.

Mega-Mawile was banned due to lack of counter, Having the highest attack in the game, Fantastic Typing allowing easy +2 sweeps.

> In mono it has even less available counters
> Adding broken pokemon to a metagame can't be good
>>Saying because steel needs it isn't a valid argument
> It's Game Sweeping potential soars due to less available revenge killers depending on match up
> More Set up opportunity

Ah I already made my argument with Skymin relating to this:


In summary Skymin doesn't make things equally viable at all. It's just a broken mon' that negatively effects the meta. Besides Sweeping types either through lack of counters / solid revenge killers and pure hax how does it benefit the tier.

I'll restate it once again hopefully with a rebuttal
What makes it broken in OU and how that doesn't apply to it in Monotype.

Wow, gg me. I see Antar is in the thread and assume I posted in the wrong spot w/o looking... Sorry for clogging up the thread with the deleted post. :/

I've just been lurking on the thread for a while, but I'll take a stab at this one then briefly transition back into the tiering debate. I want to emphasize I'm not referring to Mawile in particular (or any Pokemon) with this statement.

In general, while we have access to fewer checks/counters in Monotype, the converse is also true. The opponent also has limited access to Pokemon that can help cover something's weaknesses. Thus, a focused, and well planned, attack can often break these same things that presented so much trouble in OU.

Now, some of the specific Pokemon...

Genesect on Bug teams is easily the best example of this. Bug teams can only switch into powerful, Fire-type attacks so many times before their core starts to crumble. Thus, a massive weakness is generated in the team, which can be exploited to beat a Pokemon that was deemed broken in OU. The game becomes about player skill and who can safely bring in their threats more often throughout the match.

Aegislash on a Ghost team is exactly the same w/ spamming something like Knock Off. In OU, every team had a reliable switch-in (often multiple reliable switch-ins) to a Knock Off aimed at Aegi; but, the converse is not true on a Ghost team.

Now as for Mega-Mawile...it and Klefki share a type so no matter what we do as far a complex ban goes there will always be a reliable screener to help Mawile setup and sweep. Both Fairy and Steel also have access to Pokemon that can remove the few things that can stop Mawile from sweeping. I'm not going to argue with you that Mawile should be suspected eventually.

Transitioning back to the tiering debate...
I'm going to stand by my original assertion that Skymin and Kyu-W need to go first. They are literally doing nothing for the metagame right now and the ban is justifiable from an efficiency argument. Skymin just flinches teams to death and Grass teams have a new toy in m-Sceptile to replace Skymin. With the banning of Kyu-W, I agree Ice will most likely return to its spot as one of the worst types; but, I would argue that is far better than keeping a Pokemon that creates a matchup-based metagame.

This has been discussed at length on the thread, but the two defensive behemoths, m-Sableye and m-Slowbro, should be the first suspects. And I do think we should suspect, not quick ban. The metagame is still very volatile; with posts like Hunk's on those two Mega's a larger part of the community will start adapting to these, and other Pokemon. While many things he's discussing are gimmicks, there are certainly some viable sets as well. I think our current aversion to many of them stems from the fact they were non-standard in the XY metagame.

 

[Antar]

Done.

monosteel 53.8742560185
monofairy 53.5904919249
monoflying 53.5264390518
monopsychic 53.4107864161
monoground 53.1139290582
monodragon 52.8893422113
monobug 52.7122287442
monofighting 52.5257099415
monowater 51.9067381381
monotype 51.819951203
monodark 51.5210862796
mononormal 51.017850475
monoice 50.4945000869
monofire 50.3688176743
monopoison 49.6652518516
monoghost 49.418160971
monograss 48.8551083917
monorock 48.6504779838
monoelectric 47.9746448666

Edit: How can pretty much everything be above average? Part of the answer I think is due to dual-monos, but note that the average GXE isn't 50 but is closer to 52 (see the entry for "monotype," which encompasses ALL teams). Not exactly sure why this is the case, but I think it's consistent with the behavior of Glicko ratings.

Edit 2: Yes, okay. The issue is that we're counting battles, not players. The average GXE of all players should be 50. But good players play more, so the average GXE across all battles is greater than 50.

 

[Tyke]

If we're talking about cool sets to run, I wouldn't say it's a particular Pokemon or set that I'm fond of it on, but I've recently loved just throwing Substitute on offensive Pokemon on my teams, the likes of Excadrill, Greninja and Landorus force so many switches due to only having one opposing check on enemy teams due to the way teams have to be built in Monotype, and often using a Substitute on a predicted switch allows you to wear down said check so you can go ham on it. It's also a nice failsafe vs Sucker Punch spam, from things like Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Honchkrow and even stuff like the rare Toxicroak. Just be careful when you use it, especially if the mon you use it on has no form of recovery, cos there's no point subbing with an exca when there's a perfectly healthy Skarmory or Mandibuzz on the opposing team, because they'll just Whirlwind you out or break the sub and roost off any damage you do in the process. A seriously cool move.

I agree.

Substitute is a nice cushion so you don't get punished if you mispredict a switch a switch. You protect yourself from status and leech seed while getting a clear shot at an opponent or otherwise dangerous threat.

Substitute works very well on many mega evolutions, as they often force switches and have set up potential. Some of my favorites are...

- mega-Medicham
- mega-gardevoir
- mega-gallade
- mega lopunny
- mega heracross

My personal favorite is the sub/phantom force mega-banette set. If it learned power up punch I'd run that over mega-sableye.

Other offensive pokemon that benefit from substitute include Shaymin Sky, excadrill, alakazam, and aegislash.

 

[Salemance]

As always thanks Antar!

Anyway, of the recent shift inthe Meta through the new megas and all, I'd thought id give Mega swamp a swing on a new ground team I was experimenting with, andits worked out comically well at moments and just underperformed in others. I've yet to find him as fun a tool as Camerupt or Chomp for my teams, but I mean it's not as bad Steelix (note It was basically test teams I was using so it may be off) but just sad it doesn't do much for us in the end.

Anyway, this might just me more complaining at the fact my poor Yeah!!! Is having difficulty in the meta but its fun having the change of pace ATM (and sorry if its bit off topic of bans but idc, felt like talking).

 

[scpinion]

I really appreciate you posting the GXE data for us! That certainly helps, but shows pretty much what I expected...everything is clumped around a 50% win rate with the types at the top of the ladder slightly above 50% and the "bad" types below 50%.

Can you explain how you calculated that btw (it can be in pms or a different thread to keep from clogging up the thread), the average is more than 50%?!?! Someone has to win and someone has to lose each battle...
Edit: didn't see your edits to the GXE post before I posted this. You're counting battles so something >50 makes sense.

Hey, Articuno I (and others). Just so you all know, winrate is a really shitty metric, due to the fact that PS makes every attempt to matchmake players of like skill. What you *really* want is average GXE, since GXE corresponds to the expected winrate of a player on a ladder with no matchmaking. Articuno I, I believe you have the raw data for that for what ever month that data was from. I'm going to try to get you guys up-to-date information (based on November's stats) as well.

I know I may be shooting myself in the foot with this; but, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I'll hedge my bets by saying I agree GXE is the best metric for pretty much every other tier.

The GXE metric is designed to take the match-making element out of it (what is the probability of beating a 1500+/-350 player), which is exactly opposite of what we want to know... We are interested in learning if one type has a significant advantage, assuming two players of equal skill are playing each other. The match-making algorithms do their best to guarantee we have equally skilled players in the matches. Thus, we're looking for abnormally high win rates for a particular type at different levels of play to indicate that type needs to be nerfed. I hope I'm not too far out in left-field with this idea... :/

 

[Tyke]

In the vein of introducing new sets for ORAS Megas, I thought I'd take a swing at mega-lopunny.

This is the set I found extremely useful on mega-lopunny. It's very effective in this meta for disrupting and punishing set ups/stall teams.


Mega-Lopunny

Mega-Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Power up Punch
- Last Resort/Frustration
- Encore

This mega-lopunny set makes use of it's incredible speed and perfect coverage to set up on leads, other set ups, and the like. You can run maximum HP as well if you want a bulkier substitute. Some pokemon this set roughs up include...

-Mega Venusaur
-Galvantula
-Skarmory (if it goes for stealth rocks)
-hippowdon
-swampert
-Aegislash
-many other examples

It also puts Mega-Lopunny in a safe position behind the substitute to do severe damage to another pokemon. At +1 Frustration/Last Resort does major damage, 2HKOing several defensive steel types like scizor even with the resist.

Or Lopunny can use encore to lock opponents into a move, giving a safe switch to Chansey or Porygon2. Encore shuts down a startling number of pokemon without putting mega-lopunny at risk of taking damage.

Here is a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-189324582

Just mai thoughts c: