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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
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What is dragonite doing at B+? In what ways is he inferior to the rest of the ou dragons?
In all things, I think that Dnite should retain his A rank, and honestly think that its superior to garchomp, who is higher rank
In all things, I think that Dnite should retain his A rank, and honestly think that its superior to garchomp, who is higher rank
Rankings are huge this time, so I'll do B+ now and B in another post. What I don't talk about I think should stay in its rank :)
Alakazam (Mega) B+ -> A- / A: Megazam is a huge boon to offense, with its insane base 150 speed and 175 special attack, megazam outspeeds all non scarfers (and most scarfers). Not only is it fast and strong, megazam's movepool allows it to adequately cover all typings with 3 moveslots, leaving options to help deal with stall in taunt, encore, calm mind, substitute etc. It's insane to see this so low.
Rhyperior: B+ -> B and
Skarmory: B+ -> B
So yeah gonna put these two together. Both aren't as good as they used to be and have (what i consider) crippling weaknesses. For skarmory, it is much too passive and easy to take advantange of, while rhyperior's typing leaves a lot to be desired.
Starmie: B+ -> A-: Starmie was an awesome pokemon towards the end of XY, and is arguably just as good in ORAS. It's unique typing and ability to spin, deal with the less common pursuit trappers in reflect type, and can also run an offensive life orb set with rapid spin. Regardless, Starmie's versatility and great speed and typing make it an annoying threat in ORAS.
Swampert (Mega) B+ -> B / B-: I was really hyped for mega swampert, but unfortunately isn't nearly as good as I expected it to be:( It doesn't get its speed boost turn one, isn't as strong and fast as kabutops (although it has stab earthquake and better bulk), but also takes up a megastone, and is obviously next to useless when not using rain.
I think I'll add more later.
So yeah gonna put these two together. Both aren't as good as they used to be and have (what i consider) crippling weaknesses. For skarmory, it is much too passive and easy to take advantange of, while rhyperior's typing leaves a lot to be desired.
I think I'll add more later.
Ok thanks, I think my posts got a little messed up and out of order.
I still don't really understand why Kyurem-Black was put in B+. It is much too diverse and has too much potential with many different sets to not merit A-. While its choice scarf set is currently the most viable set in oras( provides great coverage, and is stronger and more versatile than almost all other scarfs), the life orb set with roost and 3 attack can potentially 6-0 stall barring chansey. Kyurem-Black is also difficult to predict what set it will run, as opposed to something like zardx/zardy where the team makeup typically can reveal what megastone is being used.
You forgot Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, SpD Jirachi, Clefable, and Cresselia as good counters to Roost + 3 attacks Kyu-B that stall can run. Granted, Kyurem-B can run moves such as Hidden Power Fire or Iron Head to get past Mega Scizor and Clefable, but that's sacrificing longevity and limiting Kyu-B's ability to check offensive Pokemon. As for the Scarf set, while it's good, i don't think it's anything spectacular. It is Stealth Rock weak and has no real spammable move. It also lacks a move to cripple or gain momentum against defensive Pokemon, such as U-turn or Trick. That thing about being the most powerful scarfer is also definitely not true. Scarf users such as Latios and Hydreigon have more risk-free power in the form of Draco Meteor for example. Yes, you can clean up against offense with Outrage, which is stronger than Latios and Hydreigon's Draco Meteor, but you have to first eliminate Fairy-types, Steel-types, Breloom, and faster Scarfers, which is not an easy task at all, and requires a lot of support to happen. On the other hand, Hydreigon can revenge kill almost every single Pokemon that Kyurem-B can and more (think Mega Metagross), without the need to lock itself into Outrage, has a somewhat spammable STAB in Dark Pulse, and U-turn to easy prediction and keep momentum. Hydreigon is also not SR weak, and has more useful resistances to take advantage of, namely Ground, Ghost, Dark, Fire, and Psychic, allowing it to become a much more effective check to Pokemon such as Gengar, Bisharp, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Alakazam, and Landorus.
So, given how much competition Kyu-B faces in every single one of its roles (there are like a dozen viable scarfers around, and Kyu-B is far from being one of the best, same with wallbreakers) and its multiple individual flaws, such as being SR weak, plethora of common weakness, and low Speed against offense when not using the Scarf set, i think B+ is a much better placement for it than A-.
So Megachomp is pretty much D Rank at this point, huh...?
What is the general opinion on Weavile, because in my experience (even post-MMence ban) it's still very nice to have. It has base 125 speed allowing it to outspeed a large portion of the metagame, which is an amazing thing to have. 120 base Attack for a Pokemon that fast is also pretty damn good, and it can really do some serious damage with Icicle Crash / Knock Off. It checks Mega Sceptile, Landorus-I, Thundurus, Greninja, and even checks non-scarfed Lando-T variants. It's a really solid Pokemon.
I'd say give it a bump up to B+ or B Rank.
I'd say give it a bump up to B+ or B Rank.
Just my opinion on some stuff worth raising while we're still young in the ORAS meta.
Clefable A+ --> S
One of the most reliable setup sweepers in the tier with the undisputed best type in the game. With unaware, Clefable can act as a very reliable counter to both Mega Sableye and Altaria, two huge threats that serve on a good majority on teams. Even with Magic Guard, it still gives Sableye trouble setting up. Clefable is also blessed to be one of the few pokemon with access to both Cosmic Power and stored power, giving it the ability to get past certain other unsuspecting threats, such as Mega Venusaur. Magic Guard allows it to only be taken down to hits, and paired with it's acceptable bulk and ability to set up on almost all defensive oriented pokemon, this thing is unstoppable once it reaches +3. It only has about 2/3 real counters that beat every set (Taunt Heatran, Metagross, and checked by most steel types), but all are easily checked by other common OU partners such as Rotom-W or Landorus-T. It even has access to stealth rock, wish, thunder wave, and boltbeam coverage if you want to go fully offensive. Overall, it's potential to run multiple (very different sets) combined with fairy typing, reliable stab/coverage, and reliable recovery, there's almost always room on a team for Clefable.
Politoed A- --> A
Rain received a rather in-direct boost in ORAS with Mega-Swampert. Rain teams are very viable right now, as pokemon like Heatran Landorus-T are on close to every team, and are given a lot of trouble against other swift swimmers such as Swampert and Kingdra. Politoed also has both defensive and offensive presence as well, as not much really appreciates a Specs, Rain Boosted Hydro Pump.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Rain: 267-315 (96.3 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
It also has the moveset and neutral typing in water to pull off a defensive set, with moves like Scald, Perish Song, Encore, Haze, etc.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 154-183 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Though Politoed itself may not be the best pokemon, rain teams are really well fit in the meta right now, meaning Politoed has much use as the go-to rain setter.
Skarmory B+ --> A-
As Magnezone, Manectric, and Thundurus gradually fall in usage, Skarmory gains reason for use. It has one of the best defensive typings in the game, reliable recovery, and access to both dual hazards and reliable hazard clearing (defog). Defensive sets really give Metagross, Lopunny, and Landorus-T issue.
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
As one of the most bulky and best typed walls, and reliable dual hazard setters, there's little reason not to use Skarmory on stall teams.
Registeel Unranked --> C+Now that Greninja is (obviously) broken with the new move tutors, specially defensive Registeel steps in as a reliable check, only being threatened by Low kick, though not even OHKO'd. With Access to thunder wave, stealth rock, and even counter, it gives good support on Stall Teams weak to Greninja and other powerful special attackers like Gardevoir. It also has Access to Amnesia, Iron Defense, and Curse making it an unlikely but potentially threatening setup sweeper, if your opponent has no strong Fire or Ground attackers.
Mamoswine A- --> A(Arguably) The best offensive typing in the game. Tied together with 130 base attack, it can tear through any team without a Slowbro or Rotom-W. In fact, it even has coverage for both with freeze dry, and after a Life Orb boost, the potential to 2hko both.
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 143-172 (47 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 179-213 (45.4 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It has access to both Stealth Rock and knock off, making it a good lead vs. hyper offensive teams with large ice weaknesses. Unfortunately, its poor SDef and Mediocre defense allow it to be taken down rather easily, but not without securing a KO or 2.
One of the most reliable setup sweepers in the tier with the undisputed best type in the game. With unaware, Clefable can act as a very reliable counter to both Mega Sableye and Altaria, two huge threats that serve on a good majority on teams. Even with Magic Guard, it still gives Sableye trouble setting up. Clefable is also blessed to be one of the few pokemon with access to both Cosmic Power and stored power, giving it the ability to get past certain other unsuspecting threats, such as Mega Venusaur. Magic Guard allows it to only be taken down to hits, and paired with it's acceptable bulk and ability to set up on almost all defensive oriented pokemon, this thing is unstoppable once it reaches +3. It only has about 2/3 real counters that beat every set (Taunt Heatran, Metagross, and checked by most steel types), but all are easily checked by other common OU partners such as Rotom-W or Landorus-T. It even has access to stealth rock, wish, thunder wave, and boltbeam coverage if you want to go fully offensive. Overall, it's potential to run multiple (very different sets) combined with fairy typing, reliable stab/coverage, and reliable recovery, there's almost always room on a team for Clefable.
Rain received a rather in-direct boost in ORAS with Mega-Swampert. Rain teams are very viable right now, as pokemon like Heatran Landorus-T are on close to every team, and are given a lot of trouble against other swift swimmers such as Swampert and Kingdra. Politoed also has both defensive and offensive presence as well, as not much really appreciates a Specs, Rain Boosted Hydro Pump.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Rain: 267-315 (96.3 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
It also has the moveset and neutral typing in water to pull off a defensive set, with moves like Scald, Perish Song, Encore, Haze, etc.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 154-183 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Though Politoed itself may not be the best pokemon, rain teams are really well fit in the meta right now, meaning Politoed has much use as the go-to rain setter.
Skarmory B+ --> A-As Magnezone, Manectric, and Thundurus gradually fall in usage, Skarmory gains reason for use. It has one of the best defensive typings in the game, reliable recovery, and access to both dual hazards and reliable hazard clearing (defog). Defensive sets really give Metagross, Lopunny, and Landorus-T issue.
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
As one of the most bulky and best typed walls, and reliable dual hazard setters, there's little reason not to use Skarmory on stall teams.
Mamoswine A- --> A(Arguably) The best offensive typing in the game. Tied together with 130 base attack, it can tear through any team without a Slowbro or Rotom-W. In fact, it even has coverage for both with freeze dry, and after a Life Orb boost, the potential to 2hko both.16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 143-172 (47 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 179-213 (45.4 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It has access to both Stealth Rock and knock off, making it a good lead vs. hyper offensive teams with large ice weaknesses. Unfortunately, its poor SDef and Mediocre defense allow it to be taken down rather easily, but not without securing a KO or 2.
I think scizor may warrant a raise to B+ Rank. CB Bullet punch is more useful than it was in XY as it revenge kills several new mega evolutions such as Diancie, Altaria, and Sceptile, as well as rising threats such as Mega Gardevoir, Weavile, etc. Its typing is more useful than it was in XY, as it allows Scizor to check Mega Altaria, Mega Latias, Latios, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Sceptile, and Celebi that lack a fire move. U-turn and Pursuit also find increase utility in the current metagame.
Current Dragon types that have a similar role to Dragonite in OU: (mega)Garchomp, Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X, Mega Sceptile, Kyurem Black and Salamence. Along with some of the UU dragons. Let us compare.
Garchomp: faster speed and has a better support movepool, Garchomp is more versatile in it's roles, as opposed to Dragonite who is usually pure offence. Even if Mega Garchomp is not as good as we initially believed, it is still a more potent mixed attacker.
Mega Altaria: This outclasses Dragonite in terms of Dragon Dancing in every way possible. It's unique typing gives it the edge in that only steel types resist both of it's stab, and with the fact that Mega Altaria pretty much always carry earthquake it doesn't matter anyway
Mega Charizard X, ever since it's creation, has been having the edge on Dragon Dancing. Tough Claws make it into a monstrous wallbreaker that Dragonite can only dream of out damaging.
Mega Sceptile is much faster, even if it's physical set isn't very well known. It serves as a better late game cleaner, even if dragonite has extremespeed .
Dragonite technically does outclass Kyurem Black, but only barely imo. Kyurem's attack is miles ahead of Dragonite's, it is virtually impossible to switch into it's outrage unless you're a steel or fairy
The only real OU physical dragon type that Dragonite does beat is Salamence, and Salamence hasn't been very good this generation to begin with.
Also someone mention this before: newer defensive threats now wall Dragonite for days.
Sylveon for B.
The Specs set has gotten way better with all the new Megas being introduced in ORAS. Specs Sylveon also pairs up with mons like Mega Gallade and Mega Metagross who need both Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye, the premier stall mons in OU, gone.
Not too many mons in OU want to switch in to a Specs Pixilate Hyper Voice (even when resisted) and the coverage options in Psyshock, Shadow Ball and a choice of Hidden Power Fire or Ground causes a huge surprise factor on its checks. Most people believe that the coverage moves on Specs Sylveon are filler, but check these calcs out:
When running Shadow Ball:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 278-328 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 184-218 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
When running Psyshock:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 214-254 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (calc was used on offensive Mega Venusaur, as its defensive variants are outclassed with Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro being the premier stall megas right now, but even then:)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 230-272 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recover
When running Hidden Power Ground:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 272-324 (70.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 420-496 (129.6 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 184-218 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 136-162 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (not much Empoleon can do back since they normally don't run Flash Cannon)
When running Hidden Power Fire:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 348-412 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This isn't exactly on topic but it's something that could probably be addressed. This paragraph appears in the explanation if the thread:
- EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.
My thougths in B/B-/B+
Breloom B+ -> A-: If your opponent does't have a grass type it can just decimate teams via Spore. Its one of the best MegaSlowbro options. Also MegaSabeeye gets destroyed by +2 bullet seed.
Quagsire: B -> B+: I feel hes on par with B+ mons due to being one of the few mons capable of beating top-tier boosting sweepers with the marvelous "Unaware". B+ seems fair but no higher.
Chesnaught B- -> B+: Drain Punch, Super Fang, Spikes, Leech Seed, Spiky Shield, Wood Hammer, and even Synthesis are excellent tools that don't have before in XY.
Rhyperior B+ -> A-: Bird Spam is common.
Dragalge C+ -> B-: Adaptability Choice Specs Draco Meteor is a very huge BOMB!!!
Weavile: B -> B+: It has base 125 speed allowing it to outspeed a large portion of the metagame, which is an amazing thing to have. 120 base Attack for a Pokemon that fast is also pretty damn good, and it can really do some serious damage with Icicle Crash / Knock Off. It checks Mega Sceptile, Landorus-I, Thundurus, Greninja, and even checks non-scarfed Lando-T variants. It's a really solid Pokemon.Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Terrakion, and Heatran OHKOED/2HKO Low Kick
M-Camerupt B -> B+: With Hidden Power Grass Its very dangerous switch into:
Mega Swampert: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD M-Swampert: 292-344 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Swampert: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 340-404 (92.8 - 110.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sharpedo: 252+ SpA Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Sharpedo: 352-416 (125.2 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Quagsire: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 440-520 (111.6 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kabutops: 252+ SpA Sheer Force M-Camerupt Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 612-720 (233.5 - 274.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Omastar: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 420-496 (148.9 - 175.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Starmie: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rhyperior: 252+ SpA Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 378-447 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Some Earthpwr Blast:
Starmie: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-307 (80.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Kingdra: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kingdra: 264-312 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Suicune: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Empoleo: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 324-384 (87 - 103.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Swampert: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD M-Swampert: 292-344 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Swampert: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 340-404 (92.8 - 110.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sharpedo: 252+ SpA Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Sharpedo: 352-416 (125.2 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Quagsire: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 440-520 (111.6 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kabutops: 252+ SpA Sheer Force M-Camerupt Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 612-720 (233.5 - 274.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Omastar: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 420-496 (148.9 - 175.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Starmie: 252+ SpA M-Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rhyperior: 252+ SpA Camerupt Hidden Power Grass vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 378-447 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Some Earthpwr Blast:
Starmie: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-307 (80.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Kingdra: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kingdra: 264-312 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Suicune: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Empoleo: 252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 324-384 (87 - 103.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
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Dragonite isn't outclassed by any other dragon in the tier. Access to E-Speed makes the band set combine very powerful revenge killing and wall breaking abilities in a single team slot (unlike something else like KB), which is pretty amazing for offense. In fact, the wallbreaking potential is so great that pretty much nothing in the game can switch in on it if it clicks the right move. Between Outrage, EQ, Fire Punch and Iron Head/Tail, no defensive mon is coming in on it free of charge.
Fire Punch has a 75% chance of 2HKO'ing 252/252+ Skarm without rocks up, and is guaranteed with. People are seemingly underestimating just how useful taking a 50% chunk out of a defensive wall in this kind of way really is, because it's unforeseen and doing that can easily facilitate something like a Pinsir sweep, and it does this without having to waste a team slot on something like Magnezone, who is no longer even reliable at doing its job because of Shed Shell. Iron Head/Tail either 2HKO's or outright OHKO's annoying fairies like Clefable, Altaria and Sylveon, and the flinch chance can be quite crucial too, allowing you to check and tear straight through Clefable sometimes without even getting scratched. It also has the priceless ability to 2HKO at worst any neutral target (like CroCune and CM Manaphy, both of which can be annoying for balance teams) with Outrage, which ensures you always have a way to muscle through these kinds of threats.
Combine these abilities with great bulk backed up by multiscale which greatly helps checking threats and setting up and you've got a solid A- mon who can be tailored to support any team really well. It can even fit on stall thanks to its huge movepool, typing and bulk.
I think Mega Tyranitar might need to keep dropping. It's a pretty mediocre Dragon Dancer that really struggles to find a decent opportunity to set-up in the first place due to the vast number of pokes these days that can hit it SE, and then getting past Fighting types like Keldeo and Conk is just super difficult for it. The opportunity cost in using it is, frankly, massive. It's almost like how in Ubers using the Mega Lati's is completely pointless because of Soul Dew, which has landed the Mega Lati's an E ranking despite being theoretically usable in their own right. If you look in Mega T-Tars current rank, every other pokemon in there is better and more useful than it. Then look at B-, is Mega T-Tar really better overall than Goth, Sylveon, Togekiss, Conk, Weavile, Klefki and Staraptor? I find ALL of those mons much more threatening or annoying than him. He belongs in the land of C+ where things like Mega Medicham reside (hell, M-Medicham is still better than him).
B+ ---> A-
Dragonite isn't outclassed by any other dragon in the tier. Access to E-Speed makes the band set combine very powerful revenge killing and wall breaking abilities in a single team slot (unlike something else like KB), which is pretty amazing for offense. In fact, the wallbreaking potential is so great that pretty much nothing in the game can switch in on it if it clicks the right move. Between Outrage, EQ, Fire Punch and Iron Head/Tail, no defensive mon is coming in on it free of charge.
Fire Punch has a 75% chance of 2HKO'ing 252/252+ Skarm without rocks up, and is guaranteed with. People are seemingly underestimating just how useful taking a 50% chunk out of a defensive wall in this kind of way really is, because it's unforeseen and doing that can easily facilitate something like a Pinsir sweep, and it does this without having to waste a team slot on something like Magnezone, who is no longer even reliable at doing its job because of Shed Shell. Iron Head/Tail either 2HKO's or outright OHKO's annoying fairies like Clefable, Altaria and Sylveon, and the flinch chance can be quite crucial too, allowing you to check and tear straight through Clefable sometimes without even getting scratched. It also has the priceless ability to 2HKO at worst any neutral target (like CroCune and CM Manaphy, both of which can be annoying for balance teams) with Outrage, which ensures you always have a way to muscle through these kinds of threats.
Combine these abilities with great bulk backed up by multiscale which greatly helps checking threats and setting up and you've got a solid A- mon who can be tailored to support any team really well. It can even fit on stall thanks to its huge movepool, typing and bulk.
B ---> C+
I think Mega Tyranitar might need to keep dropping. It's a pretty mediocre Dragon Dancer that really struggles to find a decent opportunity to set-up in the first place due to the vast number of pokes these days that can hit it SE, and then getting past Fighting types like Keldeo and Conk is just super difficult for it. The opportunity cost in using it is, frankly, massive. It's almost like how in Ubers using the Mega Lati's is completely pointless because of Soul Dew, which has landed the Mega Lati's an E ranking despite being theoretically usable in their own right. If you look in Mega T-Tars current rank, every other pokemon in there is better and more useful than it. Then look at B-, is Mega T-Tar really better overall than Goth, Sylveon, Togekiss, Conk, Weavile, Klefki and Staraptor? I find ALL of those mons much more threatening or annoying than him. He belongs in the land of C+ where things like Mega Medicham reside (hell, M-Medicham is still better than him).
+1 on both (and i still think A- is too low for nite)
considering Dragonite only as a dragon dance sweeper makes my eyes hurt. Dragonite is just as versatile as Aegislash was. Indeed, considering only the dragon dance set is like considering only the Stance Dance set of Aegislash!
please, dragonite is not only a sweeper, he is also an excellent tank and wall. try with a defensive set with toxic, imitating the parashuffler set, or try the substitute+dragon dance set with toxic support. those sets won't deceive you, and both laugh at all the things that counter the dragon dance set: status, revenge killing, and bulky water type walls like slowbro. i also miss all the rain sets who are as usefull as ever as lures for skarmory and the aftermentioned slowbro.
a set like these is nice for a stall team, especially to lure fairies like azumarrill and stall them to death:
Rage Quit:
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 144sdef / 116 Spd
Calm Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic
- Roost
- Substitute
the speed gives you the boost to bypass anything below and including defensive Mandibuzz, but it can be tailored to outspeed any wall you need to. a set with substitute and dragon dance might also work as long as somebody else provides enough status support. i usually combine both sets it with empoleon as he provides both defog support, stealth rock to abuse of dragon tail and wear down some counters and checks like talonflame, and scald to burn steel and fairy types. just be carefull of magic guard clefable as he will wall you like he walls any stall mon
also, all you seem to forget dragonite does not consume the megaslot, thus he does not need to compete with his brothers for a spot in the team, and instead he can join forces with them to lure and weaken, eliminate or cripple their mutual checks and counters. tell me how slowbro will wall your charizardX if he just got Toxic poisoned,tell me how will clefable take care of your sceptile if a choice band iron head just smashed him to bits, tell me how skarmory will stop your physical sweepers after taking a surprise Thunder/Fire Blast in the face. i have used Nite since i was a noob in the old DP days and i know him pretty well, but if i am wrong, i would like to see your counter-arguments
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feel like this is a massive waste of dragonite's offensive potential. you might as well run milotic with rest talk dragon tail so that it ignores priority. dragonite can barely run any defensive set well. i think you're overplaying his versatility
and using the offensive dragon dance set wastes his excellent bulk instead, also, considering he is outclassed offensively in short terms (excluding of course the point i mentioned above: you can simply use a powerfull mega like metagross, his brothers charizard or altaria WITH offensive dragonite and make either dragonite or the mega stomp to the ground their mutual counters and reserve the other to sweep) running more defensive sets are the most logical alternative. i personally used this set on the early XY on a semi-stall team with aegislash with his defensive set and there was no way to see which one of the pair was harder to take down
the basic point is: you can't run a wallbreaking mega and a sweeping mega at the same time, but you can make Dragonite to replace one of them and go to rampage teams because, while dragonite is not as dangerous as mega charizardX, he is still a pain to defeat in the good hands, all while allowing you to go sweeping with mega metagross due to Dragonite probably having already lured and smashed skarmory to bits with a choice band Fire Punch, or stall out any bulky water (Quagsire and non rest slowbro mainly) who stops it from sweeping with the set i put above. also, the bulk mentioned gives him the chance to stall any slowbro, including megacrobro, who even if you run out of dragon tails and he sets up to +6, you can still force him to a pp/hax stall war as he will do nothing more than 20% with multiscale accounted,or even less with a full specially defensive spread, and if he runs out of scalds, he won't be able to stop your sweeper anymore
the basic point is: you can't run a wallbreaking mega and a sweeping mega at the same time, but you can make Dragonite to replace one of them and go to rampage teams because, while dragonite is not as dangerous as mega charizardX, he is still a pain to defeat in the good hands, all while allowing you to go sweeping with mega metagross due to Dragonite probably having already lured and smashed skarmory to bits with a choice band Fire Punch, or stall out any bulky water (Quagsire and non rest slowbro mainly) who stops it from sweeping with the set i put above. also, the bulk mentioned gives him the chance to stall any slowbro, including megacrobro, who even if you run out of dragon tails and he sets up to +6, you can still force him to a pp/hax stall war as he will do nothing more than 20% with multiscale accounted,or even less with a full specially defensive spread, and if he runs out of scalds, he won't be able to stop your sweeper anymore
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Rankings are huge this time, so I'll do B+ now and B in another post. What I don't talk about I think should stay in its rank :)
Alakazam (Mega) B+ -> A- / A: Megazam is a huge boon to offense, with its insane base 150 speed and 175 special attack, megazam outspeeds all non scarfers (and most scarfers). Not only is it fast and strong, megazam's movepool allows it to adequately cover all typings with 3 moveslots, leaving options to help deal with stall in taunt, encore, calm mind, substitute etc. It's insane to see this so low.
Rhyperior: B+ -> B andSkarmory: B+ -> B
So yeah gonna put these two together. Both aren't as good as they used to be and have (what i consider) crippling weaknesses. For skarmory, it is much too passive and easy to take advantange of, while rhyperior's typing leaves a lot to be desired.
Starmie: B+ -> A-: Starmie was an awesome pokemon towards the end of XY, and is arguably just as good in ORAS. It's unique typing and ability to spin, deal with the less common pursuit trappers in reflect type, and can also run an offensive life orb set with rapid spin. Regardless, Starmie's versatility and great speed and typing make it an annoying threat in ORAS.
Swampert (Mega) B+ -> B / B-: I was really hyped for mega swampert, but unfortunately isn't nearly as good as I expected it to be:( It doesn't get its speed boost turn one, isn't as strong and fast as kabutops (although it has stab earthquake and better bulk), but also takes up a megastone, and is obviously next to useless when not using rain.
I think I'll add more later.
Actually, Rhyperior is still a really good physical tank, and will Birdspam is not as common as it was, Rhyperior can still tank attacks from a majority of physical attackers and hit hard back. Access to Stealth Rock and ability to hard wall Talonflame is also really useful, so to say that Rhyperior's typing leaves a lot to be desired is untrue; while there are some crippling weaknesses, Rhyperior is still really useful.
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If you want to use defensive Dragonite, you use its bulky Roost set, which has a little more offensive presence while still being able to tank a majority of attacks. The Dragonite set you posted is highly vulnerable to Klefki and Clefable, who completely wall you and are encouraged to set up all over you. Clefable may wall Dragonite's tankish bulky Roost set, but at least Klefki has to watch out for Fire Punch or Earthquake.
Dragonite is fine where it is. It should certainly not go any lower, but not any higher. The only two sets worth using are Choice Banded and Parashuffler. The Dragon Dance set is outclassed by Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados and Zard X respectably, as stated before. The Choice Band set hits like a truck, but we have Kyurem-B for that, which actually has better moves to back it up. (It may not have a good Physical Ice move, but it has better coverage.) Kyurem-B also has the advantage of checking Greninjas lacking Low Kick, which is pretty rare anyways.
The Parashuffler set is arguably rivaled by Gyarados, who has Intimidate. Sure, Dragonite has Multiscale, but that's its only niche in this other-wise unfriendly metagame. B+ is pretty generous.
The Parashuffler set is arguably rivaled by Gyarados, who has Intimidate. Sure, Dragonite has Multiscale, but that's its only niche in this other-wise unfriendly metagame. B+ is pretty generous.
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I nominate Magneton for B/B- rank. Magneton can outspeed pokes that Magnezone can't , which now they have a higher usage than in the previous months , i'm talking about Jolly Talonflame , Greninja , Dugtrio and possibly other important pokes. There's a little difference in SpA with Magnezone , so he has no problems KOing Skarmory , even if has more difficulty to kill Ferrothorn aggravated also by the higher speed which makes stronger gyro ball , and less bulkyness. I think that B or B- would be the perfect rank for him at the moment.
Uh ok let's address some stuff I've been reading that has been making my eyes hurt or just for some clarification.
Uh I get nobody likes using M-Ttar but that's too low for something that realistically can have the potential to be a monstrosity. Dropped for opportunity cost more than anything really besides the fact that new trends such as M-Lopunny kind of just beating it all the time. It'll just have the M-Garchomp syndrome sooner or later but we just dropped this 2 subranks if you haven't noticed lol. Really got to wait before another big jump like that.
Small point but we're talking about stuff currently in the B+ and B categories not those you want to move up from lower subranks into that category just thought I'd let you all know.
Breloom should stay B+. I would've advocated this for B but the fact that its offensive sets such as the Banded and Life Orb Technician variants, those with Force Palm as well, to check M-Lopunny and M-Sharpedo with potential to ohko more consistently along with the Poison Heal SD Attacker variants is what I think keeps it at B+ for being able to wall-break a lot of stuff such as Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, and if played well M-Sableye and M-Slowbro as well to name a few. A- is too high though.
Or we can just not rank Forretress and even go as far as to blacklist it because time and time again it's been established as the epitome of overrated garbage that is endorsed by players with little understanding of how it would function from a practical standpoint. Drops the quality of the thread to and we always waste our time trying to explain why it's bad to people with faulty logic. Not even trying to be condenscending it's just that useless. Definitely no.
Ninja'd here above about its loss of effectiveness but M-Diancie and M-Metagross are some others that slow it down. The Choice Band set relies on mediocre speed and proper prediction while its Dragon Dance Set is more or less done more efficiently by others. Espeed was a big selling of point of its former rank and if its effectiveness has decreased, which it has, it should be reflected as such.B+ ---> A-
B ---> C+
Uh I get nobody likes using M-Ttar but that's too low for something that realistically can have the potential to be a monstrosity. Dropped for opportunity cost more than anything really besides the fact that new trends such as M-Lopunny kind of just beating it all the time. It'll just have the M-Garchomp syndrome sooner or later but we just dropped this 2 subranks if you haven't noticed lol. Really got to wait before another big jump like that.
Birdspam =/= Talonflame so if you have a playstyle that's not even used as frequently as it was then its hard to always justify using Rhyperior for your defensive builds to that of a B+ ranked mon. It tanks physical attacks beautifully but it really doesn't want to be taking hits over and over again. I don't have a definitive idea of its placement right now but considering I had a discussion yesterday on PS with someone that thought it was lower and was looking for it in the C ranks I think that'll give you an idea that its viability is questionable at this point.
Small point but we're talking about stuff currently in the B+ and B categories not those you want to move up from lower subranks into that category just thought I'd let you all know.
Breloom should stay B+. I would've advocated this for B but the fact that its offensive sets such as the Banded and Life Orb Technician variants, those with Force Palm as well, to check M-Lopunny and M-Sharpedo with potential to ohko more consistently along with the Poison Heal SD Attacker variants is what I think keeps it at B+ for being able to wall-break a lot of stuff such as Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, and if played well M-Sableye and M-Slowbro as well to name a few. A- is too high though.
XY Aegislash meta was like 6 months ago (>_>) and you can't really use that bulky sets are justification, especially the toxicshuffle one you put as some sort of reason that it's amazing. Touched upon what makes Dragonite less effective in another quote.
Bulkier variants are sort of better tbh try those.
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