Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Nochman.EXE]

Well I tried to discuss this in the chat but they told me to post it to the forums, so...

Don't you guys think Protean is against everything Monotype stands for?

I know there is this thing of banning Greninja now, but this goes for the 4 pokes that get Protean and not only Gren. (Froakie, Frogadier, Greninja and Keckleon)

I don't mean to qq but honestly, we all here choose one type and stick to it. Build teams around it, make strats, check viability rankings, but having a pokemon that can change it's typing constantly, getting stabs and new resistances all the time, doesn't make the Monotype thing kinda pointless?

While I don't think it's banworth, it is ironic or even contradictory. We could also say that Forest's Curse, Trick-or-Treat or Soak are contradictory as well, but they are so rare and unique... Not to mention it changes the target's type, not yours.

What do you guys think?

No because Greninja and Kecleon start as certain Type, and can only be used on their respective Types.

Mega Evolution also changes a Pokemon's Type but I've found that this enhances the Metagame by opening up more Teambuilding opportunities.

The "Monotype thing" is just making a Team with Pokemon that share a Type. Outside of that, if game mechanics allow us to change our entire Fire Team into Grass Type, that's even more fun to me.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Not gonna argue about Mawile anymore but there are a couple things I want to reply to.

Sorry bout that, there was a difference between your weird and my definition of weird. (Subpar maybe?) Stuff like Av T-Tar and LO Crawdaunt are pretty good overall while LO Krook and Band Terrakion are only useful against certain threats (cough Maw cough)

I personally have found Band Terrakion useful for the extra.power it provides, and I wouldn't say it's TOO uncommon, I've seen afew other people in the mono room use it. I admit, LO Krook is weird, but that's just what was on the Damage Calc thing (I am not the best at doing damage calcs, I once managed to make seismic toss a critical hit <.<).

Because my reasoning so far has been fragmented to an extent due to trying to reply to other people's posts, I'll summarise my entire feeling about it here.

Why is it ban worthy?

• Capable of threatening any play style or team type due to its sheer power and movepool options. Sucker Punch ruins many a would-be good offensive answer, while Swords Dance annihilates bulkier archetypes. STABs+Sucker hits pretty much everything in the game that isn't a very bulky Steel or Fire type for massive damage, and it can even run Fire Fang over it's Steel STAB to alleviate this issue with Steel types. Sucker Punch is a fantastic move for Mawile, as it undoes most attempts to offensively check it thanks to Dark's great coverage this gen, being resisted only by Dark, Fighting and Fairy types. Dark and Fighting are both smacked by Fairy STAB while the generally physically frail Fairies anyway are destroyed by Steel STAB. Resisting STAB Dark and Fairy moves and having high physical bulk to take the majority of physical Fighting hits only helps to make Sucker even more useful. There are obviously offensive checks but not many, and nothing can beat everything.
• Creates an unhealthily lopsided matchup against multiple type teams in the metagame. Gnief touched on this earlier in the thread, but it's fantastic typing and it's nice bulk gives it an incredible advantage over many a type. It's typing gives it 11 resistances and 2 immunities in exchange for only 2 weaknesses. This gives it an insane amount of set-up opportunities or just opportunities to fire off those STAB attacks which many a team has no switch in for. This is what makes it so hard to deal with for some teams, as it doesn't need to set up to destroy some teams like Fighting which there have been a lot of checks mentioned for. These types have literally no counterplay if it just clicks Play Rough or Iron Head every time it comes in on something it can force out. This means it can take out 2-3 members of a team every time if played right. This is common for Ice, Rock, Grass, Bug, Dark and even opposing Fairy teams. That means it decimates 1/3 of the common types by itself, and still has a great matchup against many others such as Psychic and Poison.
• Requires sub-optimal strategies to try and beat it. This is something anttya already covered, so just read her post. Running stuff that severely hinders a Pokemon's role and ability to do its job effectively generally construes that a Pokemon is broken. One of the best examples of this I've seen is the swampert set you posted, yeah it can check Mawile but in every other matchup it detracts from Swampert's role of being Water's best Stealth Rock setter and checking threatening Electric type attackers.

It's fine to raise these points, at the end of the day this thread is to discuss stuff like this, but when there's so obviously a strong feeling against it and your points have been answered by multiple people, it's best just to accept it. This isn't the best metric to go by, but if I went into the mono chat and asked should mega Mawile be banned, 95% of people would instantly go yes because it's just not healthy for the metagame.



I've discussed Greninja in the past, being a Ground user means it gives me immense trouble but you're right, I don't think it's ban worthy either. There's not really an established ban criteria, but if I was to suggest one, it'd be if the Pokemon in question singlehandedly turns what should be even matchups into massively one-sided matchups to the point if unwinnable in multiple instances. By this I don't mean if a Pokemon on Fighting teams is too much for Ice teams, because without a stupid amount of bans that'll never be even. By the same stretch, you have to consider what is unwinnable and what isn't, sure Dark with Greninja is hard for Ground, but it isn't unwinnable.



I agree that you will see stuff here that you would never normally see in standard tiers because they provide useful offensive/defensive synergy or are simply used due to a lack of options. However you have to class the difference between what is good in its own right compared to what you're being forced to use to beat just one threat. LO Crawdaunt provides strong priority, is a killer to defensively orientated teams thanks to those hugely powerful STABs and as you say, snipes Volcarona.

Like I've said before, the extra attack allows it to actually do something other than Roar spam, as it has no reliable recovery, and allows it to stay in longer and actually somewhat help my team offensively (as my water team is mostly stally). I would not say it hinders it in every other match up as it is very helpful in more than a few.

 

[Teh Fai]

I'm quite sure plenty of types can deal with Mega Pinsir. All you have to do is not let it set set up. And even if you DO let it set up, almost every type has a Pokemon that can tank a hit from it, or deal with it another way. Fighting has Sash Breloom which can put it to sleep and also retaliate with Rock Tomb. Flying has Skarmory who can tank a hit and Whirlwind. Ground has Hippowdon who can do the same thing. Rock has Mega Aggron. Ghost has Sableye. Water has Rotom-Wash. Electric has a lot of things that can deal with it. Psychic has Slowbro. Ice has Avalugg. Dark has Mandibuzz which can Foul Play it and KO, and again, Sableye. And Fairy has Klefki(and Mega Mawile, but that's gonna get banned probably). Only types that I find might face a challenge against Mega Pinsir is Bug, Grass, Normal if you're not using BulkyRaptor or ScarfRaptor, and Poison if you're not using Weezing. And even then, the main thing is to not let it set up. Normal can dispatch Mega Pinsir with Staraptor since Quick Attack can't kill and Brave Bird WILL. Bug can use Flame Body Volcarona to try and burn it, or if that doesn't work, you have Scizor. Grass is the type that Bug murders all the time. However, you can always Thunder Wave it with Ferrothorn or Spore it with Breloom. Poison has

Another thing, there are Scarf Pokemon out there that can take a +2 Quick Attack and also retaliate back pretty hard. For example, Staraptor, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Genesect, Chandelure, Victini, Kyurem White, and Kyurem Black. There's also the matter of bulky attackers like Magnezone, Mega Scizor, and Landorus-T that can really put a dent in Mega Pinsir. You know what else puts a dent in Mega Pinsir? Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks means that it can't switch in and out, and even when it DOES switch in, it takes 25%(50% if you already Mega Evolved) so it really shouldn't be too hard to beat it.

Also, Mega Pinsir really can't set up too much. This is due to frailty on the special side, and the fact that Rock moves are everywhere. It can set up on anything that won't beat it up or status it, which is a generally small amount of Pokemon.

On the bright side, Mega Pinsir is still a pretty good sweeper. And while I think that's it's not broken like you've said, it's still a pretty very strong Pokemon.

P.S I might be a bit biased about this. I've always used Mega Scizor over Mega Pinsir. In all my tests, I've found Mega Pinsir to be kind of underwhelming. All these claims that I have made in this were based off of tests and a few calcs.

Here are the calcs:

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-200 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery; This shows that Skarmory can live a hit and also how much of a killjoy it is to Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, and Mega Heracross since the others probably can't do more damage.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 282-334 (81.9 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery; Damn, Torkoal is defensive. Never really noticed until now.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 346-408 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate burned Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 190-224 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; Since Prankster will allow Klefki to set up Reflect before Mega Pinsir can attack.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 258-304 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; Still kamikazes itself to death, but at least Mega Pinsir is down, right? But in all seriousness, no Pokemon would want to take a Brave Bird from Staraptor on Bug.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 204-240 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 211-249 (80.8 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 286-337 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery; Landorus-T has Intimidate, so you can see how much +1 does.

P.P.S Hope it's okay if I flooded this thread with calcs. If not, then I can edit it.

If you notice though very few of these things can switch into a Mega-Pinsir that has already set up swords dance and Mega Pinsir can set up on a various amount of things because not every monotype will have something like a supportive statuser and bug mono gets plenty of things to deal with stealth rocks such as rapid spin armaldo and forretress plus defog on scizor and yanmega. Plus if a switch in is predicted they either switch out or go for the heavier hitting moves taking off more HP. And if you are using purely physically defensive pokemon like most of the pokemon on here then they will lack the attacking power to hit back hard enough for a KO. Also some of the pokemon you mentioned cannot survive switching into a Mega Pinsirs attacks.

4 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 168-198 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 174-206 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.6 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (recoil turns pinsirs 3hko into 2hko)

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 541-637 (167.4 - 197.2%) -- guarante

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 552-649 (141.1 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 216-255 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 517-609 (182.6 - 215.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 204-240 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 331-390 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 666-784 (222 - 261.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 595-702 (165.7 - 195.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 234-276 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 258-304 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 660-777 (212.2 - 249.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm going to stop here cause I'm flooding now. (sorry everyone <3)

 

[ArVaDa-]

I didn't even know this was a thread till just now (thanks Sae Sae signature).

I am on the keep m-mawile free front because there seems to be alot of prediction free talk here. Often times on the ladder people predict my moves a few steps in advance (I'm too predictable I guess), so why can't people predict the most predictable poke in the game?? Mawile comes in on setup fodder, so you can do the seemingly forbidden double switch to punish that switch, right (am I crazy)? Or mawile comes in when screens are up to tank a hit, so be prepared and dont let it switch in without cost and not wanting to set up anymore. Also, if SD does get up, you can switch back and forth or use status moves, making them predict a play rough/whatever, it isn't as outlandish as many are making it out to be (that is how I donk most m-maws and I am doing OK).

The Commoner: Well between rocks and spikes arvada, that is impossible as every time you try to defog or rapid spin them, mega maw is going to switch in (fodder scenario I'm seeing) and smash something. Or if you try to keep mega maw from sweeping, something else will (fairy having many options scenario).

To answer the first case...

Why did you let rocks / spikes / both get up in the first place? They aren't automatically up when the game starts, what were you doing with those turns? I don't like arguments set up where rocks and spikes are automatically in the calculations, because you are assuming nothing was done by the other player during that time, such as killing an important poke (thus something is dead and less options are available for the fairy user later), making sure those things didn't get set up with a defogger/ rapid spinner staying in, or a bunch of switches happened. I can't generate every scenario, but I can say FOR A FACT, that the spikes / stealth rocks did not get up for free, and if they did, it was 1 layer of something on a good switch (if more got up during 1 play, there was human error, ie not switching to a counter). In the same vein, not every spinner / defogger is setup bait. Armaldo, excadrill, and a few others can EQ, tentacruel can scald then switch to quag if the burn attempt failed, zapdos can heat wave, and skarmory can whirlwind/ roost with rocky helmet. Not every team is going to have these pokes, but they are definitely common, and if I need to list more I can find more standard pokes that can deal with this.

To answer the second case...

Typically, I see klefki, togekiss, and gardevoir on most teams as pokemon that aren't going to sweep and have some other purpose. Such as scarf tricking, healing wish, spikes, what have you. Then there is diancie and clefable who COULD, not always, be setting up rocks. So about half the team is a bunch of setup and death fodder to get azumarill / mega maw / calm mind or cosmic power clefable in to sweep. These pokes are not only slow, but they WANT to set up desperately. Every azumarill I see wants to belly drum like a maniac at full health to sweep, so attack it or, if something looks like it wants to die and you can't stop azumarill with the current pokemon out, don't kill it and let azumarill set up for free, because you should know that is the plan. Mega maw is the same way, you need to play fairy like a chess game. Sometimes they can move these "rooks" into position where you are in checkmate, but you could have made a move earlier to prevent this, such as keeping pokes in that they can't set up on. Clefable is a bit different, if you have nothing to stop it, you really have nothing to stop it. Everyone magically has this crazy gen 3 clefable with softboiled so after a few defense boosts you aren't getting through it. To add to my other statements, I'm aware that between azumarill and mega maw sometimes you don't have something that threatens both of them and the poke currently out, but it seems to me that most generic teams have answers.

I'm not naive, fairy is one of the toughest matchups I have to play against. And there does seem to be a trend of people thinking fairy as being an easy ticket, among other types, to hit the top with a great gxe and seemingly no skill. However, isn't it amazing that the same players and same player's alts end up at the top regardless, even without fairy, or mega maw? And outside of arken and ashaury, and I'm sure there are others but IDK of them, I can't think of many notable fairy users.

So in the end, my suggestion is plan ahead in team building versus banning m-mawile. There are some people making crazy sets for unused pokes to stop mawile, but that seems to be people looking for a 100% counter to mawile and fairy cores in general (the poke probably doesn't exist, at least for every type) instead of making plays. I don't think that not wanting to make plays is banworthy. Mawile is the bear in the monotype woods, if you choose to not bring a shotgun with you, THE BEAR WILL GET YOU. Since the beginning of pokemon there have always been pokes more effective than others, and in my opinion, mawile is just a good poke to be prepared for, just as much as charizard-y and other behemoths.

EDIT: I didn't address it on steel mainly because I honestly don't see it being used over mega gross (ever, I've seen it a handful of times on the countless steel teams I have faced), if you guys care I'll address it (I don't think it is a bigger deal on steel than fairy, if it is a deal at all) but otherwise these are my thoughts on the matter.

 

[all falls down]

As a grass user i would love to see Mega Pinsir getting banned, but I'm not sure can i really make a case why it should be banned.
You can't really stop Mega Pinsir when you are using grass. I run timid whimsicott so i can para it and hope for the best, but if the opposing team runs sticky webs (Like almost every bug team does) it will outspend whimsicott and OHKO it with quick attack. Ferro can take 1 hit without dying but it can't really do anything (Except Twave or gyro ball which does only like 55 %). In my opinion though, Mega Pinsir can be countered pretty easily when you are using other types.
Would i love to see pinsirite get banned? Yes.
Do i think it it deserves a ban? Not really.

There are actually ways to kill Pinsir for Grass; there is a very effective rotom mow set that does wonders (I think it's Ticken's set)

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick

It outspeeds Pinsir by one point, can choose to burn it or volt switch and then have Ferrothorn finish it off with iron barbs, etc. It is also not completely deadweight because its trick scarf and speedy burn is very useful in many matchups, and helps grass vs Pokemon like Staraptor, Skarmory, and more.

• 0 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 170-204 (62.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 0 SpA Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 222-264 (81.9 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 Atk Aerilate burned Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Rotom-C: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18% chance to 3HKO

You can also just use max speed max special attack and OHKO with thunderbolt, as Quick attack fails to OHKO:

• +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 183-216 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And there is always Sash Breloom to save the day, although being a shaky way to kill Pinsir because of its reliance on the sash:
(252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 336-396 (123.9 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Set

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch

There is also max defense Ferrothorn which can stall Pinsir to death with protect + leech seed or gyro ball and Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet, or it can also paralyze it so other things can get it.

• 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Set

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Spikes / Thunder Wave
- Protect

With all this being said, Pinsir is a fantastic Pokemon, but I agree with you and Gnief Fiar in that it isn't broken due to many reasons including its 4x weakness to stealth rock which happens to be extra bad on a Bug team; you probably already have Volcarona and most of your team takes 25% from stealth rock. It is also walled by Skarmory and Zapdos and is slow and weak before mega evolving.

And finally, it lacks support due to being on one of the least support-oriented teams in Bug, as anything that beats Pinsir likely beats the entire team so it has nothing to switch in for it and once Pinsir mega evolves, it usually only gets one shot.

 

[all falls down]

Alright so I have been holding out on talking about Mega-Mawile but with all the discussion I think it's time that I jumped in.

First off nods to DM35 and Gnief Fiar as I agree with all that they have said and some of my argument is repeated.

It has come to a point where Fairy is one of the best and easiest types to use. With Clefable able to single-handedly beat half of monotype's teams and Azumarill and Scarf Togekiss also able to completely wipe out certain types, Mawile just becomes too much of an extra asset for Fairy. In my recent experience on the ladder I am finding more Fairy monotypes than anything else, and Mega-Mawile is broken in every single game.

Mawile's sheer power allows it to tip the game into fairy's favor in most matchups, especially those of against Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Fighting and more.

Psychic is forced to use obscure substitutes on Pokemon or to use Mew with WoW to even have a chance against Mawile, and once Mawile sets up even Mew has no chance of stopping it. Ghost has many users that can burn Mawile, sure, but the combination of Mawile and Clefable destroys Ghost because Clefable absorbs all of the burns and Mawile gets rid of the offensive Pokemon.

As for the latter three types(Dark, Dragon, and Fighting), every Pokemon of each of those three types is OHKO'd by Mawile except a small handful that is 2HKO'd anyways, and all three types struggle to kill Mawile; this means that every time Mawile comes in, something has to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Mawile isn't useless outside of these matchups either; it enjoys using Fire-Fang/Sucker Punch on everything on a Steel monotype after Heatran is gone; uses sheer force to OHKO/2HKO everything on Electric monotypes, Iron Head OHKO/2HKO everything on Fairy monotypes and Rock monoypes, and much more.

This is all without boosting as well. If swords dance is taken into consideration, there are only a small handful of things that can take on +2 Mawile, and the amount of monotypes that can deal with it is in an even smaller handful, with it being able to sucker punch everything faster and play rough all the walls.

I also agree with Croven in that Mawile is far more broken than it was in OU. To think that the only Pokemon that people used to argue for Mawile to stay in OU was Heatran, and only two monotypes have Heatran. Does anyone else see something wrong with this?

I have always believed that Mawile was too much for Steel, but I have held off on Fairy because it seemed to be so damaged by losing it, but with the addition of Mega Diancie I think that Fairy will still be a top tier type even if Mawile is banned, so I believed it should be banned for both monotypes.

 

[feen]

Alright so I have been holding out on talking about Mega-Mawile but with all the discussion I think it's time that I jumped in.

First off nods to DM35 and Gnief Fiar as I agree with all that they have said and some of my argument is repeated.

It has come to a point where Fairy is one of the best and easiest types to use. With Clefable able to single-handedly beat half of monotype's teams and Azumarill and Scarf Togekiss also able to completely wipe out certain types, Mawile just becomes too much of an extra asset for Fairy. In my recent experience on the ladder I am finding more Fairy monotypes than anything else, and Mega-Mawile is broken in every single game.

Mawile's sheer power allows it to tip the game into fairy's favor in most matchups, especially those of against Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Fighting and more.

Psychic is forced to use obscure substitutes on Pokemon or to use Mew with WoW to even have a chance against Mawile, and once Mawile sets up even Mew has no chance of stopping it. Ghost has many users that can burn Mawile, sure, but the combination of Mawile and Clefable destroys Ghost because Clefable absorbs all of the burns and Mawile gets rid of the offensive Pokemon.

As for the latter three types(Dark, Dragon, and Fighting), every Pokemon of each of those three types is OHKO'd by Mawile except a small handful that is 2HKO'd anyways, and all three types struggle to kill Mawile; this means that every time Mawile comes in, something has to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Mawile isn't useless outside of these matchups either; it enjoys using Fire-Fang/Sucker Punch on everything on a Steel monotype after Heatran is gone; uses sheer force to OHKO/2HKO everything on Electric monotypes, Iron Head OHKO/2HKO everything on Fairy monotypes and Rock monoypes, and much more.

This is all without boosting as well. If swords dance is taken into consideration, there are only a small handful of things that can take on +2 Mawile, and the amount of monotypes that can deal with it is in an even smaller handful, with it being able to sucker punch everything faster and play rough all the walls.

I also agree with Croven in that Mawile is far more broken than it was in OU. To think that the only Pokemon that people used to argue for Mawile to stay in OU was Heatran, and only two monotypes have Heatran. Does anyone else see something wrong with this?

I have always believed that Mawile was too much for Steel, but I have held off on Fairy because it seemed to be so damaged by losing it, but with the addition of Mega Diancie I think that Fairy will still be a top tier type even if Mawile is banned, so I believed it should be banned for both monotypes.

I really dont know why any of you people aren't even banning this thing yet. Quick ban it rn!!111111111

 

[Aquaslash]

Mawile's sheer power allows it to tip the game into fairy's favor in most matchups, especially those of against Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Fighting and more.

Dark is my main mono, and I'll happily tell you that Mawile does nothing for or against the matchup vs fairy.

Fairy vs Dark is actually so one sided it's stupid. Bisharp and Drapion can only do so much and Houndoom gets easily rekt by Azumarill.

 

[ArVaDa-]

It has come to a point where Fairy is one of the best and easiest types to use. With Clefable able to single-handedly beat half of monotype's teams and Azumarill and Scarf Togekiss also able to completely wipe out certain types, Mawile just becomes too much of an extra asset for Fairy. In my recent experience on the ladder I am finding more Fairy monotypes than anything else, and Mega-Mawile is broken in every single game.

Easy is OK. The problem I have with this is the meat argument is that there are too many GOOD sweepers in fairy, so lets just get rid of the worst one (which is the unanimous opinion of the thread to be mawile) it would be all better. If I got that wrong correct me, but if that is the arguement, azumarill, clefable, and togekiss should be on the ban board as well, as they are considered, it seems, to be good sweepers on fairy as well. None of which I would ban either.

Mawile's sheer power allows it to tip the game into fairy's favor in most matchups, especially those of against Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Fighting and more.

Psychic is forced to use obscure substitutes on Pokemon or to use Mew with WoW to even have a chance against Mawile, and once Mawile sets up even Mew has no chance of stopping it. Ghost has many users that can burn Mawile, sure, but the combination of Mawile and Clefable destroys Ghost because Clefable absorbs all of the burns and Mawile gets rid of the offensive Pokemon.

A fairy type being able to OHKO types weak to its typing is as broken as Mega Cham OHKOing rock, dark, and normal with HJK, I don't see the issue there. WoW mew is 100% standard, and it usually has taunt, which stuffs mawile with prediction. I do recall a Pk-Dolph shared account using psychic made it to the peak of the ladder with psychic with a win ratio of like 66 and 7 or something ridiculous before the ladder reset. Psychic is OK. Ghost definitely hates sucker punch, but it isn't like I haven't seen a ghost team where at least 1 member is running destiny bond, which is a sacrifice but mawile was dealt with. Or gengar could be running the sub disable set or something. I've seen Kekskruemell (poison user) using gengar with substitute,WoW, hex, and something else. Ghost has sets that are optimal and can play around mawile. To give that some credibility, Nova Riku isn't using ghost anymore from what I've seen, but I'm told he used ghost the WHOLE TIME to #1 before he switched to water, and his gxe is pretty unbelievable. I know mawile is good against all types, but it isn't banworthy for these reasons, if it is banworthy at all.

Mawile isn't useless outside of these matchups either; it enjoys using Fire-Fang/Sucker Punch on everything on a Steel monotype after Heatran is gone; uses sheer force to OHKO/2HKO everything on Electric monotypes, Iron Head OHKO/2HKO everything on Fairy monotypes and Rock monoypes, and much more.

I don't know how agreeable this statement is, but I don't exactly consider Electric or Rock as top tier monotypes. EVEN SO, rock has EQ and sturdy on most of its mons and most ARE STILL FASTER than mawile. Electric has stab Tbolts everywhere, heat wave zap, and WoW rotoms. Steel has heatran, skarmory, and excadrill to deal with mawile, and mawile itself. Fairy loses to steel, so it isn't a surprise that mawile is as critical to fairy vs fairy as heatran is in steel vs steel. Show me the much more and I'll answer it.

I have always believed that Mawile was too much for Steel, but I have held off on Fairy because it seemed to be so damaged by losing it, but with the addition of Mega Diancie I think that Fairy will still be a top tier type even if Mawile is banned, so I believed it should be banned for both monotypes.

Mawile rarely exists on steel, mega gross is clearly used more and seems to be more usable. The argument that fairy has another mega to play with, so if mawile goes away it is ok, has as much standing as me saying ban mega gallade because they still have mega cham on mono fighting, which isn't happening. That doesn't mean anything unless mawile is just 100% broken to the point that as soon as the match starts I'm saying GG WP to the mawile player (that isn't happening, I have good matches that go both ways).

Once again I am not naive guys (and gals), I know it is good. I also recognize most of the people posting here as decently or more than decently respected battlers, but it seems like you guys are looking to ban something to change the metagame to a slower pace versus dealing with all the pokes available. I can't bring myself to run stall teams in monotype unless every SE attack to the main type is covered(so for water, grass and electric), and from my experience that can only be accomplished by water, flying, and steel (normal to an extent versus all types except fighting). So all the other types don't have a defensive answer for everything, that doesn't mean, IMO, that we should go around banning everything every type can't stop in a defensive way. I don't see water taking mega venu on without a fight anytime soon, and that isn't going to be banned it seems. On the other hand, if you guys are thinking the ban is appropriate because mawile seems to be clobbering everything, while venusaur doesn't clobber everything in the same way. Then I would think you would need to find a objective way to say, monotype only allows pokemon that defeat an X amount of pokemon on their own, and then show mawile defeats too many (just like blaziken and talonflame).

I only addressed All Falls Down because by the likes it would seem he compiled the feelings of the people who want mawile banned in one post, I'm not trying to pick you apart just so you know :D Group effort in this thread is best.

 

[all falls down]

Dark is my main mono, and I'll happily tell you that Mawile does nothing for or against the matchup vs fairy.

Fairy vs Dark is actually so one sided it's stupid. Bisharp and Drapion can only do so much and Houndoom gets easily rekt by Azumarill.

Bisharp can do so much, Krookodile and Hydreigon have great coverage and can also do a lot, although I admit the matchup is hard. I'm not sure why you think Mawile does nothing; it just acts as another Azumarill beater which can OHKO everything on the team. Even though the sucker punch wont do much, the play rough nuke will indeed.

 

[Dece1t]

Also, please note that some of the previous pokemon under discussion will go under a manual suspect test. Details will release once the ladder on PS is fixed, so sit tight! Until then, I would like people to maintain their attention on Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-White, Greninja, Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.

Honestly, I feel like all but Genesect and Mega Medicham are pretty OP period. The 1 thing that makes Genesect a bit easier is the fact that it's speed is 1 point below 100, which is the most common speed base stat in the meta, so usually other scarfers can handle it. If it isn't scarf, makes it that much easier. As for Medicham, yes, it's attack is a bit overwhelming, but not to the extent of Mega Mawile, and it's bulk is a bit sub par. Seriously, if anything, I was thinking to see Mega Mawile somewhere on that list. The fact that intimidate gives it pretty much a base defense of 187.5, and its attack doubling to 210, after 1 swords dance, that thing is deadly, and it's already very hard to wall even without an SD boost. The thing the tops the cake for me though, is Sucker Punch. If it didn't have priority, yeah, it would be a lot easier to take out, and I'd probably be OU, or even BL.

Final comments. I have absolutely no idea why you even have the nerve to ban Skymin, tbh that's way beyond me, if it was unanimously banned to ubers, you think that's a sign that it should stay there? The rest is self explanatory. Kyurem W, what makes it different from Kyurem B, is the fact that it has a way better movepull, by a long run, and because of Kyurem B's crappy movepull, that's why its OU. The 2 things that make Kyurem W OP, is the fact that it has strong steel coverage in the form of Fusion Flare, and its 170 base special attack, which even breaks some on the bulkiest of special walls, ofc besides Chansey. Greninja, that thing is a monster. All of its moves it can use become stab, 1, and 2 is its highly usable special attack and its insane speed. With that it also has a very wide movepull, and new found mixed coverage in the form of Gunk Shot. Scarf Greninja even outspeeds Adamant Excadrill in Sandstorm, so, it can basically sweep entire teams. Mega Sableye, as said, is nearly impossible to break. If regular Sableye wasn't good enough....anyways, Mega Slowbro is even worse. You can basically run a way more OP for of Crocune on it, and even on the special side, it's still difficult to break. Welp, this is all I got xD

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Also, please note that some of the previous pokemon under discussion will go under a manual suspect test. Details will release once the ladder on PS is fixed, so sit tight! Until then, I would like people to maintain their attention on Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-White, Greninja, Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.

Honestly, I feel like all but Genesect and Mega Medicham are pretty OP period. The 1 thing that makes Genesect a bit easier is the fact that it's speed is 1 point below 100, which is the most common speed base stat in the meta, so usually other scarfers can handle it. If it isn't scarf, makes it that much easier. As for Medicham, yes, it's attack is a bit overwhelming, but not to the extent of Mega Mawile, and it's bulk is a bit sub par. Seriously, if anything, I was thinking to see Mega Mawile somewhere on that list. The fact that intimidate gives it pretty much a base defense of 187.5, and its attack doubling to 210, after 1 swords dance, that thing is deadly, and it's already very hard to wall even without an SD boost. The thing the tops the cake for me though, is Sucker Punch. If it didn't have priority, yeah, it would be a lot easier to take out, and I'd probably be OU, or even BL.

Final comments. I have absolutely no idea why you even have the nerve to ban Skymin, tbh that's way beyond me, if it was unanimously banned to ubers, you think that's a sign that it should stay there? The rest is self explanatory. Kyurem W, what makes it different from Kyurem B, is the fact that it has a way better movepull, by a long run, and because of Kyurem B's crappy movepull, that's why its OU. The 2 things that make Kyurem W OP, is the fact that it has strong steel coverage in the form of Fusion Flare, and its 170 base special attack, which even breaks some on the bulkiest of special walls, ofc besides Chansey. Greninja, that thing is a monster. All of its moves it can use become stab, 1, and 2 is its highly usable special attack and its insane speed. With that it also has a very wide movepull, and new found mixed coverage in the form of Gunk Shot. Scarf Greninja even outspeeds Adamant Excadrill in Sandstorm, so, it can basically sweep entire teams. Mega Sableye, as said, is nearly impossible to break. If regular Sableye wasn't good enough....anyways, Mega Slowbro is even worse. You can basically run a way more OP for of Crocune on it, and even on the special side, it's still difficult to break. Welp, this is all I got xD

Skymin only has 100/75/75 base defenses, and 5 weaknesses (2x:poison/rock/fire/flying, 4x: ice). So, if something can wall its attacks (every steel type ever that floats, i.e. Skarmory/Air Balloon Heatran) then Skymin is screwed. Skarmory especially walls it (if it doesn't carry HP Fire) and can kill with Brave Bird. If it does run HP Fire, it is probably choiced, so switch to Heatran/Mega Char X. Grass struggles, but can use Sashloom I guess (not that experienced with grass so I'm not gonna say anymore). Or they can just use their own Skymin XD. I believe Excadrill can outspeed it in sand. Scarfninja outspeeds non-scarfed Skymins. Strong priority can hurt (and they won't flinch, as they attack first). Fighting has Ass Vest Conk (not totally sure about this one though, and I can't seem to get on the damage calc right now, so yeah) or Scarf Terrakion outspeeds (if non-scarf). Or you could use Inner Focus/Ice Punch Mega Gallade (the only time Inner Focus is handy, yay). It is pretty easy to see if it is choice locked or not. If it is, switch in something that walls that move. If it is not, fast scarfers outspeed.

Kyurem-W is only available on Ice, and while it is a monster, the rest of Ice's options are pretty bad, making it a rarely used type. It was only unbanned to make Ice more competitive, and Ice CAN be used effectively, but Kyurem-W is almost necessary for Ice to be any good (I haven't seen a good Ice team without Kyu-W, and even then I usually don't struggle with Ice, even using Flying). 95 Speed is also less than average, meaning it is outsped by a lot of things. It is also weak to Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch.

Greninja is frail asf. 72/67/71 defenses are really bad (worse than things like Kingdra :s). If anything can tank its hits, they are likely to KO back. Ass Vest Mamoswine tanks a Grass Knot (I think you have to invest a bit though) and has priority STAB Ice Shard to hit it for SE damage. If it is unscarfed, again fast scarfs outspeed it. If it is choiced, switch in something that can tank that move (honestly, in mono. if you don't have your weaknesses accounted for, you're not gonna get very far, so even if Ninja's move is SE on you're type, you should have something that can tank it). Priority is deadly to Greninja, as most of them run LO so they keep their coverage, so the LO recoil and priority should eliminate Greninja fairly quickly. Plus, none of them invest in bulk. Ever. So I will repeat, it is frail asf, priority kills, anything that can tank its hit kills.

Mega Sableye is hard to break, but you've gotta hit it before it sets up. Lum Berries cure the burn (so Lum Bisharp can win I believe, especially if they Mega Evolve that turn and you SD--or you can SD twice, so you are at 3x atk when you are burned and not cured), anything that uses SD when it burns you ends up with the same Attack. BD Azu O.O it gets to double its attack (instead of 4x) after the burn, and then STAB SE Play Rough nuke does the rest. Hard hitting fairy moves in general can break Mega Sableye. I have a Synchronize Gardevoir set I like. Basically anything Synchronize burns it as well and then you can stall. If they don't burn you because they know you have Synchronize, then use Toxic/WoW on them, get it Magic Bounced back, and then they get posioned/burned. So, Mew and Umbreon are also good counters. Umbreon especially, as it can toxic stall, has Heal Bell, and resists Dark Pulse (the only attack Mega Sableye usually carries). Also, if you set up along with Mega Sableye, then you will probably win. Volcarona can't be burned, and can sweep dark after a couple of Quiver Dances. It can also sweep ghost after a couple QDs as well, just because of its power.

Mega Slowbro is once again hard to break, but once again you've got to hit it before it sets up. It is slow, so you will almost always attack first. The key is to hit it hard with SE moves, and there are a few: Grass/Dark/Ghost/Electric are all SE. Again, I can't do calcs but I'll edit them on once I can if I feel like it or if somebody wants me to :P. If it uses Slack Off over Rest, poison/burn it.

Genesect is 4x weak to fire. It doesn't have any moves SE on fire types. It usually uses Scarf or Specs with four of these moves: Bug Buzz/Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/U-Turn/Flamethrower/Energy Ball. Fire types resist all but T-Bolt and can KO back with their 4x effective STABs. Also, like you said, many common things outspeed non-scarfed variants (pretty much every Mega as fast as Medicham or faster/Greninja/Landorus-I/Keldeo/Terrakion/Lati@s), and many common scarfers outspeed scarfed variants (Lati@s/Keldeo/Terrakion/Greninja).

Mega Medicham is pretty much outclassed now that Mega Gallade is here. Mega Gallade has Swords Dance, a STAB move with no recoil, better bulk, and excellent coverage. Megacham only has Pure Power (but again, Gallade has SD and the bulk to set it up), HJK (but Close Combat is only 10 BP lower and has no possibility of 50% recoil), and Fake Out to flinch and break sashes, but Mega Gallade has Shadow Sneak to finish off sashed Pokemon, and honestly, fighting usually sets rocks up anyway with Cobalion. Psychic has Mew for rocks. And once again, priority can kill Megacham, it is pretty frail (60/85/85 defenses are once again below Kingdra level) and it is outclassed. Also, 100 speed is pretty average. It can be outsped. Most scarfers will outspeed, and Pokemon like Lati@s/Keldeo/Landorus-I/Terrakion/Greninja/most Megas will outspeed anyway if they run full speed.

TL; DR They are all really good but none are banworthy imo as they all have things that counter them/bring them down from ubers. Kyu-W is the most debatable, but it is only available on Ice, which isn't the best mono even with this boost. Also, Air Balloon Heatran says hi. It's immune to Earth Power/Fusion Flare and resists Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and 4x resists Ice Beam. You just have to watch out for Focus Miss.

 

[Salemance]

Also, please note that some of the previous pokemon under discussion will go under a manual suspect test. Details will release once the ladder on PS is fixed, so sit tight! Until then, I would like people to maintain their attention on Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-White, Greninja, Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.

Honestly, I feel like all but Genesect and Mega Medicham are pretty OP period. The 1 thing that makes Genesect a bit easier is the fact that it's speed is 1 point below 100, which is the most common speed base stat in the meta, so usually other scarfers can handle it. If it isn't scarf, makes it that much easier. As for Medicham, yes, it's attack is a bit overwhelming, but not to the extent of Mega Mawile, and it's bulk is a bit sub par. Seriously, if anything, I was thinking to see Mega Mawile somewhere on that list. The fact that intimidate gives it pretty much a base defense of 187.5, and its attack doubling to 210, after 1 swords dance, that thing is deadly, and it's already very hard to wall even without an SD boost. The thing the tops the cake for me though, is Sucker Punch. If it didn't have priority, yeah, it would be a lot easier to take out, and I'd probably be OU, or even BL.

Final comments. I have absolutely no idea why you even have the nerve to ban Skymin, tbh that's way beyond me, if it was unanimously banned to ubers, you think that's a sign that it should stay there? The rest is self explanatory. Kyurem W, what makes it different from Kyurem B, is the fact that it has a way better movepull, by a long run, and because of Kyurem B's crappy movepull, that's why its OU. The 2 things that make Kyurem W OP, is the fact that it has strong steel coverage in the form of Fusion Flare, and its 170 base special attack, which even breaks some on the bulkiest of special walls, ofc besides Chansey. Greninja, that thing is a monster. All of its moves it can use become stab, 1, and 2 is its highly usable special attack and its insane speed. With that it also has a very wide movepull, and new found mixed coverage in the form of Gunk Shot. Scarf Greninja even outspeeds Adamant Excadrill in Sandstorm, so, it can basically sweep entire teams. Mega Sableye, as said, is nearly impossible to break. If regular Sableye wasn't good enough....anyways, Mega Slowbro is even worse. You can basically run a way more OP for of Crocune on it, and even on the special side, it's still difficult to break. Welp, this is all I got xD

Hey Stun bud. Nice points and while i generally agree eith most of this, i sorta a using this as a launch point. Its been debated and a bit of circling in the discussion for awhile and i would have thought we'd have consensus on this sooner but still annoying that some broken/potentially broken hasnt been given some sort of status on where it will be and yet...it is what is.

And to the other guy above, im only picking on a few things here, but why would i send out a Heatran or Char X when the threat of E-Power is very very real? I understand your context of scarf but there are all out attacking soymin sets for which its worth considering bout that threat. Then sure you can potentially wall it...as long as it doesnt possibly get a proc on seed flare. That post there drove me nuts and sorry but it has plenty of options that guarantee it is as potentially broken as we say it is.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Hey Stun bud. Nice points and while i generally agree eith most of this, i sorta a using this as a launch point. Its been debated and a bit of circling in the discussion for awhile and i would have thought we'd have consensus on this sooner but it is what is.

And to the other guy above, im only picking on a few things here, but why would i send out a Heatran or Char X when the threat of E-Power is very very real? I understand your context of scarf but there are all out attacking soymin sets for which its worth considering bout that threat. Then sure you can potentially wall it...as long as it doesnt possibly get a proc on seed flare. That post there drove me nuts and sorry but it has plenty of options that guarantee it is as potentially broken as we say it is.

I am assuming you're talking about Skymin? Anyway, Skymin only usually runs HP Fire if it is choice locked (in my experience anyway), so then Char X/Heatran is a good switch-in. If it isn't choiced, then Skarm walls it as it doesn't usually run HP Fire on non-choiced sets (again, others may have different experiences, but I have never seen a non-choiced Skymin use HP Fire). Air Balloon Heatran also floats above Earth Power, and Char X is reg Charizard when it switches in, so you could also just keep it in regular form to be immune to Earth Power. Zapdos walls non-HP Ice variants as well, so between Skarm/Zapdos/Char X you can wall Skymin (obviously that's just flying, but that's what I main).

 

[Salemance]

I am assuming you're talking about Skymin? Anyway, Skymin only usually runs HP Fire if it is choice locked (in my experience anyway), so then Char X/Heatran is a good switch-in. If it isn't choiced, then Skarm walls it as it doesn't usually run HP Fire on non-choiced sets (again, others may have different experiences, but I have never seen a non-choiced Skymin use HP Fire). Air Balloon Heatran also floats above Earth Power, and Char X is reg Charizard when it switches in, so you could also just keep it in regular form to be immune to Earth Power. Zapdos walls non-HP Ice variants as well, so between Skarm/Zapdos/Char X you can wall Skymin (obviously that's just flying, but that's what I main).

Gee thought skymin was typed once in there...oh well, phone taking bite out of post as usual.

Anyway yes i was but one thing you must always consider is the there are almost never no downsides to just spamming Seed Flare away when utilizing checks/counters like these. Balloon tran is great!...till its balloon is knocked of. Zap is fine!...till the drops become to much. Look, im jot saying it cant get past some certain things but it is easily capable of getting past a shit ton of mons just by spamming a simple combination of moves. And yes, while it is most common to see hp fire on the scarf sets i did say it is see on all out attacking sets as well and its abiloty to power through some types with almost no effort is an issue as it has been discussed to death.

 

[ArVaDa-]

The most common skymin ive seen (regardless of item) runs hp fire/ice, Earth power, seed flare, air slash.

Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-White <--- I don't really like anything banned from ingame battle frontiers/maison so I am biased and would say re-ban, I don't think any of them are broken in any way in any matchup though (maybe skymin IDK, grass isn't that tough and skymin only carries so much weight).

Greninja, 4 moveslot syndrome leaves it walled by something no matter what it runs (even if it beats YOUR monotype, it isn't beating another one). It is powerful and I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT as I am currently using flying but it isn't broken.

Mega Medicham, ....(lol why is this up for a suspect test?)

Mega Sableye usually runs 1 move, I have haze + pressure but most don't. Powerful fire pokes, powerful calm mind/quiver dancers calm minding with it usually works, it typically doesn't run taunt. (WoW, Calm Mind, Recover, Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse) Usually a normal / 4x resistant to dark will 100% wall it, but not every monotype will have one of those.

Mega Slowbro is crocune 2, if no rest toxic ends it, if it is running rest it is using 1 attacking move just like sableye, calm mind beside it and win the recover/rest war. There are random dry skin pokes that 100% wall it but those are far and in between.

 

[DoW]

A few things I feel worth mentioning:

Firstly, Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade do different jobs. While they certainly appear similar, Mega Gallade is a sweeper while Mega Medicham is a wallbreaker. Mega Gallade's job is to set up some boosts (via swords dance or bulk up), and then sweep a team, all of this done after checks and counters have been weakened or fainted. Mega Medicham's job is to switch in at a good opportunity and wack something with a HJK in order to weaken it for a sweeper, in the hopes that the win condition's checks and counters will be weakened to an extent such that it can win. Note that M-Medi does such a good job that it can often sweep teams (especially normal) on its own, while M-Gallade does a good enough job that it can come in, hit something hard with Close Combat to weaken it, then switch out and try to sweep later on. However the fact they can do each others' jobs to some extent does not change their main roles. Both do a more-than-excellent job of destroying some types, such as normal, and so I think they should both be suspected. And don't forget that M-Medi isn't necessarily worse than M-gallade just because it's used less, this just shows psychic and fighting teams have more use for sweepers in general. They can both be just as broken; having high usage isn't needed for it to be broken (see Kyu-W).

Similarly, M-Mawile is a wallbreaker. Pretty much nothing can switch in on it, with an extremely small number of things being able to actually counter it such as weezing or arcanine. The fact that it's commonly thought of as a sweeper only shows how immensely broken it is. Where wallbreakers should be very strong against stall teams but less useful against offensive teams, Mawile is a pokemon that puts in a huge amount of work against both of these, due to being so immensely powerful that it's almost impossible to have an offensive check to, and this is just looking at OU. When we look at very restricted options for pokemon available, it becomes instantly obvious that a large number of teams are completely incapable of beating it. But that's somewhat beside the point, I think the fact that it isn't primarily a sweeper should be noted.

I'm afraid I simply can't agree with the majority of the points InfernapeTropius11 makes in this post:

Skymin only has 100/75/75 base defenses, and 5 weaknesses (2x:poison/rock/fire/flying, 4x: ice). So, if something can wall its attacks (every steel type ever that floats, i.e. Skarmory/Air Balloon Heatran) then Skymin is screwed. Skarmory especially walls it (if it doesn't carry HP Fire) and can kill with Brave Bird. If it does run HP Fire, it is probably choiced, so switch to Heatran/Mega Char X. Grass struggles, but can use Sashloom I guess (not that experienced with grass so I'm not gonna say anymore). Or they can just use their own Skymin XD. I believe Excadrill can outspeed it in sand. Scarfninja outspeeds non-scarfed Skymins. Strong priority can hurt (and they won't flinch, as they attack first). Fighting has Ass Vest Conk (not totally sure about this one though, and I can't seem to get on the damage calc right now, so yeah) or Scarf Terrakion outspeeds (if non-scarf). Or you could use Inner Focus/Ice Punch Mega Gallade (the only time Inner Focus is handy, yay). It is pretty easy to see if it is choice locked or not. If it is, switch in something that walls that move. If it is not, fast scarfers outspeed.

Kyurem-W is only available on Ice, and while it is a monster, the rest of Ice's options are pretty bad, making it a rarely used type. It was only unbanned to make Ice more competitive, and Ice CAN be used effectively, but Kyurem-W is almost necessary for Ice to be any good (I haven't seen a good Ice team without Kyu-W, and even then I usually don't struggle with Ice, even using Flying). 95 Speed is also less than average, meaning it is outsped by a lot of things. It is also weak to Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch.

Greninja is frail asf. 72/67/71 defenses are really bad (worse than things like Kingdra :s). If anything can tank its hits, they are likely to KO back. Ass Vest Mamoswine tanks a Grass Knot (I think you have to invest a bit though) and has priority STAB Ice Shard to hit it for SE damage. If it is unscarfed, again fast scarfs outspeed it. If it is choiced, switch in something that can tank that move (honestly, in mono. if you don't have your weaknesses accounted for, you're not gonna get very far, so even if Ninja's move is SE on you're type, you should have something that can tank it). Priority is deadly to Greninja, as most of them run LO so they keep their coverage, so the LO recoil and priority should eliminate Greninja fairly quickly. Plus, none of them invest in bulk. Ever. So I will repeat, it is frail asf, priority kills, anything that can tank its hit kills.

Mega Sableye is hard to break, but you've gotta hit it before it sets up. Lum Berries cure the burn (so Lum Bisharp can win I believe, especially if they Mega Evolve that turn and you SD--or you can SD twice, so you are at 3x atk when you are burned and not cured), anything that uses SD when it burns you ends up with the same Attack. BD Azu O.O it gets to double its attack (instead of 4x) after the burn, and then STAB SE Play Rough nuke does the rest. Hard hitting fairy moves in general can break Mega Sableye. I have a Synchronize Gardevoir set I like. Basically anything Synchronize burns it as well and then you can stall. If they don't burn you because they know you have Synchronize, then use Toxic/WoW on them, get it Magic Bounced back, and then they get posioned/burned. So, Mew and Umbreon are also good counters. Umbreon especially, as it can toxic stall, has Heal Bell, and resists Dark Pulse (the only attack Mega Sableye usually carries). Also, if you set up along with Mega Sableye, then you will probably win. Volcarona can't be burned, and can sweep dark after a couple of Quiver Dances. It can also sweep ghost after a couple QDs as well, just because of its power.

Mega Slowbro is once again hard to break, but once again you've got to hit it before it sets up. It is slow, so you will almost always attack first. The key is to hit it hard with SE moves, and there are a few: Grass/Dark/Ghost/Electric are all SE. Again, I can't do calcs but I'll edit them on once I can if I feel like it or if somebody wants me to :P. If it uses Slack Off over Rest, poison/burn it.

Genesect is 4x weak to fire. It doesn't have any moves SE on fire types. It usually uses Scarf or Specs with four of these moves: Bug Buzz/Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/U-Turn/Flamethrower/Energy Ball. Fire types resist all but T-Bolt and can KO back with their 4x effective STABs. Also, like you said, many common things outspeed non-scarfed variants (pretty much every Mega as fast as Medicham or faster/Greninja/Landorus-I/Keldeo/Terrakion/Lati@s), and many common scarfers outspeed scarfed variants (Lati@s/Keldeo/Terrakion/Greninja).

Mega Medicham is pretty much outclassed now that Mega Gallade is here. Mega Gallade has Swords Dance, a STAB move with no recoil, better bulk, and excellent coverage. Megacham only has Pure Power (but again, Gallade has SD and the bulk to set it up), HJK (but Close Combat is only 10 BP lower and has no possibility of 50% recoil), and Fake Out to flinch and break sashes, but Mega Gallade has Shadow Sneak to finish off sashed Pokemon, and honestly, fighting usually sets rocks up anyway with Cobalion. Psychic has Mew for rocks. And once again, priority can kill Megacham, it is pretty frail (60/85/85 defenses are once again below Kingdra level) and it is outclassed. Also, 100 speed is pretty average. It can be outsped. Most scarfers will outspeed, and Pokemon like Lati@s/Keldeo/Landorus-I/Terrakion/Greninja/most Megas will outspeed anyway if they run full speed.

TL; DR They are all really good but none are banworthy imo as they all have things that counter them/bring them down from ubers. Kyu-W is the most debatable, but it is only available on Ice, which isn't the best mono even with this boost. Also, Air Balloon Heatran says hi. It's immune to Earth Power/Fusion Flare and resists Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and 4x resists Ice Beam. You just have to watch out for Focus Miss.

For example, you say that skymin is weak to five types. While this is true, I think it's somewhat ignoring the posts that have already been made about it. It was banned less for overall power, as most ubers are, and more because of a number of factors: Firstly, its ability to flinch things to death often made games more luck-based than skill-based, which is never a good thing, and secondly its ability to abuse flinch and SpD drops, alongside blinding speed, meant that with only a little luck things that should have outright walled it were taken out. At -2 SpD, far fewer things can wall it, especially if they can't rely on getting past an air slash first. It may not have perfect coverage, but that leads me to another point: There are a number of things that utterly destroy it, sure. But it's very much dependent on what type it is up against. If you're using a fighting team, it's worse than talonflame. If you're using ice, you couldn't care less. The fact it makes games far more matchup-based is a bad thing, so pointing out a number of pokemon seem to beat it comfortably doesn't actually help it much at all.

And yes, it's got 5 weaknesses. But so's lugia, or giratina. Meanwhile, spiritomb, with only one weakness, is down in RU. Fancy that, it's as if typing isn't everything. Honestly, the fact that you can easily take out Skymin or Genesect with the right move means very little, because they have this way of avoiding the right attack, and certain teams struggle to find the right coverage alongside a pokemon that won't be taken out by them before they get to use the attack. There's more to pokemon than how easily you can take something out, after all talon died to any rock move.

...I could go on, but I can't be bothered, as all the important points have been made already and I haven't seem them be rebuked yet. If you actually have a good point to make against those already put forward, perhaps you should rather than running around in circles -_-


tl;dr nothing's changed in recent discussion, ban the things that need a ban.

 

[ArVaDa-]

Now since I'm drunk and rambling: As with talonflame, a pokemon only needs to annihilate a number of teams to be broken enough for a ban. M-Maw destroys the majority of monotype teams. A few can just about play around it if used very well. The rest are left unable to do anything. And those that can do something often can only revenge kill in any case.

Since I am a noob and for whatever reason didn't believe in reading earlier posts, missing alot of the discussion, I neglected to see this (it has a bunch of likes too XD). I wrote something similar recently saying that if you guys believe it destroys an X amount of pokes (i even mentioned talonflame XD) regardless of what they are then I would agree for a suspect test/ban as losing to the proverbial rocket launcher is as annoying as it is in any video game. Also, I woke up a little and realized what you guys are saying a bit. If you win the 50/50 against mawile, you beat mawile good job. Or on the other hand it typically doesn't stay in on WoW'ers or the like, so if you get the desired matchup, you don't get to do what you want to it with pokes that could stop it. However, if mawile wins the 50/50 you are about to get punished unless you have a few plays left in you. I believe every type (i believe, i dont really know, dark is in big trouble outside of houndoom, Fire blast, sludge bomb, dark pulse, nasty plot) has some pokes, running optimal sets, that can deal with the monster. Which you guys have addressed saying that pokes like houndoom aren't exactly usual in the mono realm. Good work sorry i'm a bit behind / blind. I still believe plays can get you through the monster as have the people I mentioned in earlier posts including myself have (I'm not talking about the garden variety noob games under 1400 ladder rank). However, in the lower and to an extent upper ladder I am willing to admit mawile is scary and can be pretty destructive to every type.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

As a grass user i would love to see Mega Pinsir getting banned, but I'm not sure can i really make a case why it should be banned.
You can't really stop Mega Pinsir when you are using grass. I run timid whimsicott so i can para it and hope for the best, but if the opposing team runs sticky webs (Like almost every bug team does) it will outspend whimsicott and OHKO it with quick attack. Ferro can take 1 hit without dying but it can't really do anything (Except Twave or gyro ball which does only like 55 %). In my opinion though, Mega Pinsir can be countered pretty easily when you are using other types.
Would i love to see pinsirite get banned? Yes.
Do i think it it deserves a ban? Not really.

Um..dude I know grass users that have found tons of ways to deal with bug, sash breloom or max hp specs rotom can take a hit and finish it next turn. Not to mention running a spinblocker such as trevenant/gourgeist puts extreme pressure by keeping rocks up. Than comes the fact that bug has the biggest set up fodder (forretress) and if it's not running gyro ball or even if it is you could use a sub with shaymin to ruin a life. But if you ask me a type can easily beat a weakness if you think outside the box. Sure this may be considered overcentralizing but i've seen many teams that "overcentralize" work extremely well and sometimes it's just what you need to make a working mono.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I don't know why a lot of you think Banded Terrak is subpar. It is especially useful for fighting if you already have something to beat chari-x.
In fighting vs flying the only thing that can hope to switch in is fully invested lando-t who can only do it once
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 127-150 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
with pokes like keldeo and infernape having constant offensive pressure and multiple hazard setters its not hard for fighting to win the hazard control war.

Banded terrak also can run quick attack that can get a few surprise kills at times. It's main purpose is to serve as a fast powerhouse for immediate damage (think Scarf Adamant Darmanitan on Fire).
Hell it was a smogon set in Gen V, and it still is good it's not niche at all if anything I think that's its go to set after scarf.

LO Krookodile. Now I have only used Banded Krook on ground to wreak havoc on psy and let me tell you something, with intimidate and it's great moveset this thing would atleast be A rank to me. It doesn't have many counters besides the premier walls(skarm, lando) and it's one of the best pursuit trappers in the tier. It's use isn't to necessarily wallbreak but more so trap something to get big damage on it(can be a win condition), Take an attack and hit back hard. For a measure of it's bulk:

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 288-338 (87 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

It also serves as a "soft" wallbreaker in the sense that it can perform like a regular one but due to its powerful knock off it always has something to punish it's switch in.


tl;dr Banded Jolly terrak and jolly krook are perfectly viable and I'm surprised they are even considered niche. They aren't weird at all and Band Terrak's main use isn't even to beat megawile.

That being said MegaWile is still broken as hell, like why is it still in the tier. Another thing, it's been months we are moving very slowly with these bans and we have A LOT to ban.

 

[Nani Man]

Hey guys, having reviewed posts, laddered and discussed with others about the major threats existing, it's time to ban some of these Pokemon (sorry for the delay, had final exams and then christmas/new years). As we all know, ORAS released some significant additions that have changed the metagame.

One of those extremely powerful additions is Mega Slowbro. Theoretically, you'd think losing Regenerator for the sake of Shell Armour is a bad trade off, but practically, it is not. The mega evolved form of Slowbro gains a whopping base 180 Defence, coupled with a boosted 130 base Special Attack. Those stats mixed with Shell Armour, Calm Mind and Slack Off/Rest, means you have little to no chance of defeating Mega Slowbro. The only plausible ways of defeating this amazing tank is having a super effective STAB move or toxic stalling it. However, being on Water and Psychic teams, Mega Slowbro has an array of status curers on its side, as well as some Wish passers, adding even more support to this already insane tank, not to mention the CroBro set, making toxic stalling totally useless. As for the STAB super effective moves, that is obviously limited in Monotype and really is still not a good enough argument, as Water and Psychic teams are already very bulky and can easily support Mega Slowbro until the threat is gone, allowing the user to set up CMs late-game and finish the match.

With that said, all it takes is one-two Calm Mind's to secure a win on most teams, and the chance of doing so is not difficult at all, which is obviously a problem. The impenetrable defence, chances of Scald burns and its ability Shell Armour also implies that it cannot even get struck by a critical hit or suffer heavy damage on the physical side. Also, the ability to Trick it is also impossible, as it holds a mega stone.

All these factors listed in my paragraphs above dictate why this pokemon is obviously broken and must be banned. It is the best tank in Monotype at this moment and provides a lot of instances in which it autowins.

tl;dr Mega Slowbro has massive physical defence, no risk of a critical hit, cannot be crippled by Trick, extreme support to aid it if affected by Toxic, can burn any decent physical attacker with Scald, can Calm Mind in many instances, can run Rest to nullify the problem of being status'd completely, has high special attack (more than keldeo), can use Regenerator until the enemy threat is gone (can m-evolve afterwards). Slowbronite is banned globally.

The bans are not over yet!

We unbanned Mawilite upon the separation of following OU bans in hopes of diversifying the metagame by promoting usage in other types, however, while Mega Mawile does that, it does it for the wrong reasons as it is unfortunately too broken. The fact that it can utilize Intimidate upon entrance, and then freely Swords Dance or Substitute on the weakened enemy, guarantees something will definitely die, whether it be by Iron Head, Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Fire Fang and Focus Punch. It has decent bulk, meaning it can survive a hit from some pokemon and will most definitely punish them. Pretty much everything is a 2HKO and this is obviously a problem. The antics with Sucker Punch are the most devastating part of Mega Mawile, as late-game, it can be sent out, Swords Dance and finish up the match by spamming Sucker Punch. If you predict and try to switch, it could cost you by getting hit with Play Rough.

If Mega Mawile wasn't deadly enough, its team partner, Klefki, can offer Reflect/Light Screen support, meaning Mega Mawile can definitely take hits from a strong enemy and proceed to setup/attack accordingly. Steel and Fairy teams are already very formidable and can really wear down a lot of teams, and with having Mega Mawile in the back, it is simply too much and sweeps with much ease in too many cases than it should be. Some fairy users have expressed their concerns about this, but Fairy is still good even without Mega Mawile, and even so, we cannot allow something so broken to run rampant in this meta anymore.

tl;dr Mega Mawile has an absurd amount of attack power and can cleanly sweep and break most walls after a single SD. Mawilite is now rebanned globally.

The next wave of pokemon to be reviewed are Sablenite, Galladite and Medichamite. I personally am supportive of a type ban for Sablenite on Dark, simply because Ghost allows more openings to take it down, but I don't believe enough discussion with the community has happened yet, and I want to use this chance for everyone to do so before we act on it. And as for Galladite/Medichamite, I support a global ban. I will be experimenting with these during the upcoming weeks, and encourage others to post their thoughts and opinions on the next three megas and then the verdict will be revealed.

 

[Ashaury]

...
All I have to say is, im not beaing steel anymore or even bug without mawile :]
Thanks, with love Ashaury <3

 

[Aquaslash]

...
All I have to say is, im not beaing steel anymore or even bug without mawile :]
Thanks, with love Ashaury <3

Let's see, there's flamethrower on togekiss, superpower on Azumarill, focus miss on gardevoir, sheer force fire fang on base mawile...

Yeah I'm not even gonna flex on this, fairy is royally screwed against steel. All of those are worked over by just metagross, excadrill and scizor alone, and heatran can just soak up all those fire attacks. Plus they can use klefki too. It's not quite auto win, but it's just as uphill as Dark vs Bug or in some cases, Flying vs Ice

 

[feen]

Let's see, there's flamethrower on togekiss, superpower on Azumarill, focus miss on gardevoir, sheer force fire fang on base mawile...

>Sheer Force Fire Bang on base mawile
>Sheer Force Fire Bang on base mawile
>Sheer Force Fire Bang on base mawile

Don't forget Mega Diancie, but yeah, you're fucked.

 

[ArVaDa-]

Pfft most of the community didn't talk in this forum, seems like 50% or more of the posts are roomauth in mono so it is their say more than anything, so I have no problem seeing this new metagame unfolds (the tribe has spoken XD). The masses of fairy players must think it is banworthy to not speak, don't know about this place, or they are just lazy if the meta is really projected to be that bad for fairy. To side note this though it isn't like all of the matchups are balanced outside of this anyways, normal hates fighting fighting and that applies to most disadvantages. Now fairy has an extremely uphill battle like most types.

As a side note I'm still in the dark about the fighting twin bans, and the sableye ban. Needs enlightenment from experienced players who use it often and those who hate fighting it. I personally like fighting all 3 because I donk them so easily XD.