Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

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c>c+
Seismitoad deserves to rise due to its fantastic typing that allows it to check electrics in rain while being a capable sweeper due to swift swim and the power of life orb boosted hydro pumps in rain. It is also able to beat pokemon that are problematic to rain teams due to sludge wave for celebi and sceptile and focus blast for ferrothorn. Seismitoad also has access to knock to surprise chansey aiding a kingdra/ omastar sweep. It can also act as a fantastic check to rain teams due to water absorb as well as an electric immunity. This allows it to set up stealth rock reliably against teams without mega sableeye. When paired with fairy's such as sylveon, mega diancie , clefable and azumarill seismitoad can form a core to counter mons such as kingdra, kabutops and mega sableeye which prevents toad from getting up rocks.
 
I don't have much experience with Seismitoad really, but it makes no sense for it to go up. If anything, it should be removed. The whole reason why Seismitoad was even ranked was because of its typing making it immune to Thunder Wave, making it impossible get crippled by Klefki and Thundurus. Now that M-Swampert exists there is pretty much no reason to use Seismitoad anymore. Knock Off is also no reason for it to stay ranked, because Omastar gets Knock Off too to bait Chansey, and is a better rain sweeper in general.

On my phone at the moment so sorry if this post lacks a bit in detail.
 
I don't have much experience with Seismitoad really, but it makes no sense for it to go up. If anything, it should be removed. The whole reason why Seismitoad was even ranked was because of its typing making it immune to Thunder Wave, making it impossible get crippled by Klefki and Thundurus. Now that M-Swampert exists there is pretty much no reason to use Seismitoad anymore. Knock Off is also no reason for it to stay ranked, because Omastar gets Knock Off too to bait Chansey, and is a better rain sweeper in general.

On my phone at the moment so sorry if this post lacks a bit in detail.
They can be paired so omastar does not need to lock itself into knock off. You also have limited experience with it so why are you commentating on it. Mega swampert costs a mega spot and is underwheming in power compared to kabutops and other rain sweepers whilst being slower and needing a turn for swift swim to activate. Seismitoad defensive is also viable as I mentioned.
 
They can be paired so omastar does not need to lock itself into knock off. You also have limited experience with it so why are you commentating on it. Mega swampert costs a mega spot and is underwheming in power compared to kabutops and other rain sweepers whilst being slower and needing a turn for swift swim to activate. Seismitoad defensive is also viable as I mentioned.

That I haven't used Seismitoad much in OU does not mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. Please don't use fallacies like that. :/
Sure, Life Orb Seismitoad is not locked into Knock Off, but you shouldn't be staying in with Omastar after baiting Chansey anyway, so in reality it's not really a big deal. You say M-Swampert is lacking in power, but 150 attack is quite strong even without a boosting item, especially compared to Seismitoad's special attack.
Defensive Seismitoad sets honestly shouldn't even be mentioned, because they aren't relevant enough to be ranked, not to mention that even those face a lot of competition from Swampert.
 
Ludicolo C->C/C+
Ludi stands out as being one of the only swift swimmers that beat rotom-W reliably.
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 260-307 (85.8 - 101.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The next closest thing is Kingdra.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 265-313 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 133-156 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (OHKO at +2, but then it has an 80% chance to win)
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 85-101 (28 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, only thing that can OHKO is King (Which is then forced out). Ludi also has Knock Off, so Chansey is not really too threatening.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 230-270 (35.8 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Strong enough breaking for a pert to come on through.

Bronzong C>B-/B
Bronzong is one of the mons that can 100% check/counter Mega Metagross. It can take Zen Headbutts, EQs, Meteor Mashes, and can eq back for a 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 102-121 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 92-110 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Checking an S rank mon is pretty cool. And it has great bulk regardless.
 
I have no experience with Infernape, but you make absolutely no mention of Mega Altaria, who completely hardwalls your set. While more offensive variants risk the 2HKO from Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock, bulkier variants hardwall it. While I cannot say for myself on Infernape's viability due to having never used it, I am skeptical about it rising, because your nomination has made absolutely no mention of the most critical counter Infernape has acquired from ORAS.
You make a point, I completely forgot about Mega Altaria (Derp), which definitely walls it for days (Especially Roost sets, which are the most common).

My issue with this nom is not the nom itself, but that you sort of just cherry picked these calcs to prove a point, not necessarily on the stall aspects considering those are your average stall mons, but on the Balanced and Offensive builds you just went ahead and chose all the stuff Infernape beats already from a neutral standpoint yet fail to address the different variants involved and the scenarios that would take place. B- just seems way too high for something that is spending its time wearing itself down and has to rely on circumstances to be effective.
That is true, thought I did talk (With no calcs) about a couple of Pokemon who hinder Infernape. If you want I can give you a complete list (Not counting speed ties):

Offensive checks:
Lati@s(Counter), Gengar (Life orb Sludge Wave has 43.8% only), Scarf Landorus-T, Salamence(counter), Garchomp, Talonflame(Counter w/o SR), Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Diancie , Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross(The last three have to be mega evolved).

Bulky Checks:
Conkeldurr, Azumaril (AV is counter), Dragonite(Counter), Gyarados(Counter), Gliscor , Tentacreul(counter), Slowbro, Mega Altaria (counter), Suicune (counter i believe).

That and anything like Mega Lopunny and Mega Pidgeot who are faster and not weakened enough to get knocked out by Mach Punch (Iron Fist LO).

Some of these are not as common as others (Suicune and Mega Aero, particularly), while a LOT of these Pokemon can be fixed by common teammates, such as Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, etc.

That was like, from the back of my mind, there could be more. However though, everything has a counter, and even though some of Infernape's counters are common (azumarill, Lati@s), it surely also has a lot of prays in common too, such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, Chansey, Heatran, Excadrill, etc.

Now you said some of my calcs are from a "neutral standpoint" and I failed to address some scenarios. Which is true, most of these Pokemons cannot be countered by Infernape (Such as Rotom-W), but what do you expect from a Pokemon whose defense is very low? Further, the purpose of giving Infernape a neutral standpoint to make it as fair as possible. It is true that Infernape will wear itself down pretty easily with LO and sometimes Flare Blitz. But when was that such as big problem? Isn't offensive Talonflame the epitome of wearing down itself hella crazy? Roost/Recover-less Lati@s also get worn down pretty easily, but that's not a major problem, it mostly never was. Infernape gets worn down easily but it does work. Infernape also definitely is not effective on circumstances. I mean, not as much as other Pokemon, everything depends on circumstances, a lot of times it is "matchup" which nobody can do anything against it. Infernape definitely will not do his best if the opponent has a Latias, but isn't that what teammates are for? I'm not telling you to support Infernape with all your teammates or against all your counters, but at least having a teammate to your most common counter will help (Which a lot of teams should have). More often than not, your opponent will have a teammates who is decimated by Infernape or gives Infernape a free switch (Such as Bisharp). Infernape, for example, does great against sand offense and stall, but it doesn't do shit to Balanced Mega Altaria teams. There cases and scenarios for all pokemon to be ineffective. Infernape also does good against most Ferro/Rotom-W/Lando/Heatran Balanced, which are the most common nowadays.

Here's the B-ranking thingy: "Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential."

I'd say Infernape's positive traits outshine his negative traits, although not by much, really (hence B-), and he does require a bit more team support to bring out his full potential. Infernape fits perfectly in the B- tier.

Since Infernape is so versatile, it can also be an effective lure. Grass Knot for example, will lure Quagsire more often than not. On the other hand, Gunk Shot will kill weakened Mega Altaria or at least fool it into Subbing/Roost and get the KO next turn. It can also run U-turn (preferably going like Expert Belt vs. life orb) to gain a lot of momentum, especially against Landorus-T (Takes intimidate then gives a free switch) or Lati@s offense. It can run SD or NP to give stall absolutely no chance against.

Infernape is versatile, and has many sets, and you can shape your Infernape to beat whatever your team needs. If your team is Stall-weak, run Fire Blast > Mach Punch. If your team is weak to Mega Lopunny/Bisharp HO, run Mach Punch. If your team is weak to Mega Altaria balacned, run Gunk Shot. If your team is weak to Latis offense/balanced, run U-turn, and do so too if your team lacks momentum.

Again, Infernape does have its aforementioned troubles, and I'm definitely giving a lot of praise, possibly even more than it should get(because I'm nominating it!), but it still deserves anything but a C, at least a C+ but preferably B-.
 
You make a point, I completely forgot about Mega Altaria (Derp), which definitely walls it for days (Especially Roost sets, which are the most common).


That is true, thought I did talk (With no calcs) about a couple of Pokemon who hinder Infernape. If you want I can give you a complete list (Not counting speed ties):

Offensive checks:
Lati@s(Counter), Gengar (Life orb Sludge Wave has 43.8% only), Scarf Landorus-T, Salamence(counter), Garchomp, Talonflame(Counter w/o SR), Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Diancie , Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross(The last three have to be mega evolved).

Bulky Checks:
Conkeldurr, Azumaril (AV is counter), Dragonite(Counter), Gyarados(Counter), Gliscor , Tentacreul(counter), Slowbro, Mega Altaria (counter), Suicune (counter i believe).

That and anything like Mega Lopunny and Mega Pidgeot who are faster and not weakened enough to get knocked out by Mach Punch (Iron Fist LO).

Some of these are not as common as others (Suicune and Mega Aero, particularly), while a LOT of these Pokemon can be fixed by common teammates, such as Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, etc.

That was like, from the back of my mind, there could be more. However though, everything has a counter, and even though some of Infernape's counters are common (azumarill, Lati@s), it surely also has a lot of prays in common too, such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, Chansey, Heatran, Excadrill, etc.

Now you said some of my calcs are from a "neutral standpoint" and I failed to address some scenarios. Which is true, most of these Pokemons cannot be countered by Infernape (Such as Rotom-W), but what do you expect from a Pokemon whose defense is very low? Further, the purpose of giving Infernape a neutral standpoint to make it as fair as possible. It is true that Infernape will wear itself down pretty easily with LO and sometimes Flare Blitz. But when was that such as big problem? Isn't offensive Talonflame the epitome of wearing down itself hella crazy? Roost/Recover-less Lati@s also get worn down pretty easily, but that's not a major problem, it mostly never was. Infernape gets worn down easily but it does work. Infernape also definitely is not effective on circumstances. I mean, not as much as other Pokemon, everything depends on circumstances, a lot of times it is "matchup" which nobody can do anything against it. Infernape definitely will not do his best if the opponent has a Latias, but isn't that what teammates are for? I'm not telling you to support Infernape with all your teammates or against all your counters, but at least having a teammate to your most common counter will help (Which a lot of teams should have). More often than not, your opponent will have a teammates who is decimated by Infernape or gives Infernape a free switch (Such as Bisharp). Infernape, for example, does great against sand offense and stall, but it doesn't do shit to Balanced Mega Altaria teams. There cases and scenarios for all pokemon to be ineffective. Infernape also does good against most Ferro/Rotom-W/Lando/Heatran Balanced, which are the most common nowadays.

Here's the B-ranking thingy: "Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential."

I'd say Infernape's positive traits outshine his negative traits, although not by much, really (hence B-), and he does require a bit more team support to bring out his full potential. Infernape fits perfectly in the B- tier.

Since Infernape is so versatile, it can also be an effective lure. Grass Knot for example, will lure Quagsire more often than not. On the other hand, Gunk Shot will kill weakened Mega Altaria or at least fool it into Subbing/Roost and get the KO next turn. It can also run U-turn (preferably going like Expert Belt vs. life orb) to gain a lot of momentum, especially against Landorus-T (Takes intimidate then gives a free switch) or Lati@s offense. It can run SD or NP to give stall absolutely no chance against.

Infernape is versatile, and has many sets, and you can shape your Infernape to beat whatever your team needs. If your team is Stall-weak, run Fire Blast > Mach Punch. If your team is weak to Mega Lopunny/Bisharp HO, run Mach Punch. If your team is weak to Mega Altaria balacned, run Gunk Shot. If your team is weak to Latis offense/balanced, run U-turn, and do so too if your team lacks momentum.

Again, Infernape does have its aforementioned troubles, and I'm definitely giving a lot of praise, possibly even more than it should get(because I'm nominating it!), but it still deserves anything but a C, at least a C+ but preferably B-.

it has a lot of ups, but i really cant see it in b-. while my experience with it this gen is mainly with the mix set, it does pretty okay but its overwhelming as all hell cause of its 4mss. it likes to run cc, fire blast, mach punch, , thunderpunch, flare blitz, swords dance, nasty plot, gunk shot, hp ice and slack off, will-o, stealth rocks, but hey! if you wanna get past mega altaria you gotta run gunk, if you wanna beat gliscor you gotta run hp ice (and get landog on the switch but), if you dont wanna be set up to talon, you gotta thunderpunch, and like, as many things as it beats, theres two things to check it. it has super bad 4mss, and the rise of its big counters like tenta and base gyara i just... cant see it past c+? like idrc if it stays or goes its just...not good... or its not as good as it was in XY, atleast. sorry if this was poorly worded im hella tired.

also supporting seismitoad to c+
 
Re: Seismitoad; It wasn't good on Rain in XY, at least in my opinion, because if I wanted a Thundy check I had Ferrothorn or Latias to use. I wouldn't want to use a Rain team's most crucial slot for a special swimmer that's slower and weaker than Kingdra; it may have only 10 points of SpA less, but Earth Power is much weaker than Draco Meteor (Kingdra is also better at mixed sets.)

Now, with Mega Swampert, Swift Swimmer+Electric check is available in a much better Pokemon, and it can also set-up Stealth Rock. Sure, Mega Swampert takes up the mega slot, but honestly if you have a Rain team with Seismitoad+some other mega, you're probably better off restructuring to use Mega Swampert+something else.

I did agree though, in XY, that Seismitoad's Water Absorb set, which checks Rain teams and provides SR, warrants a ranking. It still has that, but I'm not where in C it should go.

Ludicolo is another case of, yeah, it's a swift swimmer that accomplishes X, but X can be done by some non-swimmer teammate and in return you can use more potent swift swimmers. Rotom-W would be the last reason why you'd use an alternative Swift Swimmer; to Rain, Rotom-W is only annoying insomuch that it can't be OHKOed by water attacks. It can be 2HKOed though, so it can't really switch in to any of them, except Mega Swampert. Ludicolo is useful because it's not blocked as hard by bulky waters, but again I'd rather just run something to check those.

Also, while both of these have Focus Blast: Focus Blast is garbage especially considering your most powerful STAB also has 85% accuracy. Maybe it's just me but losing to hax is not fun. Swampert and Kabutops' Low Kick is much better.

While I'm on the subject of Swift Swimmers, I feel like Kabutops should drop to B. It's not something I feel too strongly about, but I consider Kabutops and Mega Swampert to be on the same level (even considering Swampert's opportunity cost,) with Swampert maybe actually pulling ahead. Swampert is better than I thought, I was one who wanted it to drop to B though I still don't believe it or Kabutops is a good as Kingdra, who provides Rain teams with a lot of speed and power; Specs and even LO sets hit really hard due to its high BP moves, and it can outspeed scarfed base 110's which no other swimmer can do. Full offensive Swampert is good, and it can provide Stealth rocks so Rain teams can do something like use Chesnaught over Ferrothorn; I've also had a lot of success with, brace yourself, Cursepert. There's a write-up of why I think it's good in the Underrated sets thread, but tl;dr version is that it's still fast and threatening in Rain, but has the option to start boosting with Curse to act as a win condition outside of Rain which isn't something any other swift swimmer can do. The heavy bulk investment, lack of weaknesses, recovery and TOX/BRN negation with rest, and Def boosts make it really tough to take down. It also walks all over Mega Sableye, and fully counters it (no one runs Taunt) by investing in Def instead of SDef to turn Foul Play into a 4HKO.

Kabutops' only positives over Mega Swampert is that it hits harder (~15% diff,) has Swords Dance (but rarely has the chance to use it) and doesn't take up a mega slot. In return, it provides almost no defensive synergy to a Rain team (lower bulk especially on the special side, more weaknesses, Life Orb recoil.) In a meta that has become very defensively orientated, I feel like Swampert's longevity is more important than Kabutops' slight increase in power. Offensive Swampert is already very bulky and has a much better capability to take hits than Kabutops, but the Cursepert set just doesn't die, can switch in to really powerful attacks with relative ease (e.g. Garde Hyper Voice) and a lot of defensive teams are weak to it so long as you have a solid grass check. I know it's a bit of an unconventional set but honestly just try it.

However, Kabutops does not take up the mega slot, which is very important because a lot of megas work well on Rain (Metagross, all of the fighters, Altaria, Scizor, etc.) And it's not like it isn't incredibly threatening under rain. This is why I think it should be in the same rank as Swampert. Kingdra should remain in B+ due to the higher speed and higher power, and it's at least bulky enough to take a neutral hit or two. It's simply the king of best swift swimmer, at least in my opinion. Alternatively, raise Swampert and Kingdra up a rank, or just Swampert back to B+ idc. I know some don't think a swift swimmer should should be in the same rank as Politoed, but I wouldn't be opposed to Kingdra being in the same rank, because while it's certainly 100% necessary for Rain to function, the ranks obviously don't have a flat level of viability i.e. people always say stuff like "this is a low/high A+ mon" and stuff.
Ranking them is kind of a mess because they only work on one archetype but that archetype is really good :<
 
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Not on my computer, so I can't do long paragraphs about these guys, but here are my nominations. (Will do full posts on these guys soon)
Clefable to S
Dragonite to A-
Also support Mega Lopunny to S and Mega Sabrleye to S
 
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I don't remember when this guy was brought up, or if a consensus was reached, but I just want to post about it. Gourgeist-XL has a really solid typing and impeccable bulk, both of which allow it to wall top tier threats. It's one of the only 100% walls to Mega Metagross, and it's also able to handle other stuff, including Breloom, Mega Lopunny, Diggersby, Azumarill, and Mega Swampert. ORAS gave it Synthesis for recovery and three new megas for it to happily wall, so I definitely think it's finally viable again. As for a set, Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, and Synthesis are all non-negotiables, and let it cripple the mons it's supposed to. The last move can very; you can use Seed Bomb to hit bulky waters, Phantom Force for extra recovery + decent damage, or Rock Slide to hit Talon on the switch. I do realize Gourg isn't perfect, as given a free switch, a couple physical attackers, namely Talonflame and Mega Charizard X, and almost all Special attackers can beat it. But if you really need a mon to beat all bunnies, drill, mega metagross, and mega swampert, Gourgeist-XL is your man (or pumpkin). I'd put it either in C- or C, as it is very comparable to Gourgeist-S. I'd personally say it's better, as it's actually capable of walling threats, unlike its small brother who's more of a speedy check to them.

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I think this guy should go to C. I've heard decent things about CB and AV, but I think it's best set is Toxic Orb. This set gives it the Guts Boost right away, while allowing it to switch moves AND set up SD. A set of SD, Megahorn, CC, and Facade, crumbles practically all stall teams lacking Doublade or Cofagrigus. It laughs at Sableye and non-Psyshock Mega Slowbro, and unlike its Mega Hera, which struggles to handle Clefable, Toxic Orb Hera demolishes it, OHKOing Magic Guard at +2 and 2HKOing Unaware. It's similar to Conk, as it's a team's status absorber, but instead of doing well v. offense, it excels v. defense. I'd even argue that Hera does better v. defense than conk does v. offense, as there are very few stallmons able to stand up to hera. However, it's slow and has a pretty poor defensive typing, so its performance against offense is less than stellar. It however can kind of check Scarf Landorus-T, as it has a 68.8% chance to OHKO it after Stealth Rock at +1. I think C+ could even be worth it for this beast, as its performance v. stall is just so good.

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This may be extreme, but I personally think this should be unranked, or at least moved to D. Yes, I realize that nothing can KO it... but once you get past that, why would you run this over Mega Zam, who's more powerful, faster, and has the once made fun of Trace, which is actually why it's such an effective revenge killer. Without Trace, you wouldn't be able to handle Kingdra, Kabutops, or Excadrill, and wouldn't be able to do things like Intimidate Landog and become more powerful vs. Lando-I. Normal Zam also can't revenge kill Mega Lopunny or Mega Manectric, two things that Zam can. I guess if you really need Zam's movepool but you already have the mega slot taken, you could use normal Zam, but it's still incredibly outclassed by its Mega Evolution.

e: Ok AM i'd personally never use it, but I guess if you really need its support and already have a mevo... I just can't see it as C, the same rank as Dragalge (who probably should go up anyway), Slowking, Goodra, or Froslass. If we de-inflate things I think it'd fit in D fine, but if we keep them a bit inflated, maybe C-. I just think C overestimates its potential a tad.

Finally I'm just gonna say other noms I agree with:

- Pidgeot to B-
- Hydreigon to C+/B-
- Lopunny to S
- Mega Sableye to S
 
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You'd run Alakazam for the fact that M-Alakazam takes the mega slot. Having the luxury of Focus Sash is pretty important something that M-Alakazam unfortunately can't have and with Magic Guard can act as a status buffer for incoming burns and toxic on offensive builds that don't appreciate this. Focus Sash allows it to act as a revenge killer that will never have to worry about hazard damage and as such can maintain its sash and revenge killed weakened targets. Also Life Orb Alakazam if you're running that particular set has a lot of firepower and speed behind it on top of the utility it provides. It's really not bad to the level where it needs to drop and is fine where it's at.

Edit: Aragorn the King some of the lower ranked stuff similar to S rank has been taken into account in terms of inflation. It looks weird obviously but if inflation is your concern just know we're aware of that and it'll look a bit more clear soon. Sort of messy during suspect times as well.
 
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I don't remember when this guy was brought up, or if a consensus was reached, but I just want to post about it. Gourgeist-XL has a really solid typing and impeccable bulk, both of which allow it to wall top tier threats. It's one of the only 100% walls to Mega Metagross, and it's also able to handle other stuff, including Breloom, Mega Lopunny, Diggersby, Azumarill, and Mega Swampert. ORAS gave it Synthesis for recovery and three new megas for it to happily wall, so I definitely think it's finally viable again. As for a set, Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, and Synthesis are all non-negotiables, and let it cripple the mons it's supposed to. The last move can very; you can use Seed Bomb to hit bulky waters, Phantom Force for extra recovery + decent damage, or Rock Slide to hit Talon on the switch. I do realize Gourg isn't perfect, as given a free switch, a couple physical attackers, namely Talonflame and Mega Charizard X, and almost all Special attackers can beat it. But if you really need a mon to beat all bunnies, drill, mega metagross, and mega swampert, Gourgeist-XL is your man (or pumpkin). I'd put it either in C- or C, as it is very comparable to Gourgeist-S. I'd personally say it's better, as it's actually capable of walling threats, unlike its small brother who's more of a speedy check to them.

I think this guy should go to C. I've heard decent things about CB and AV, but I think it's best set is Toxic Orb. This set gives it the Guts Boost right away, while allowing it to switch moves AND set up SD. A set of SD, Megahorn, CC, and Facade, crumbles practically all stall teams lacking Doublade or Cofagrigus. It laughs at Sableye and non-Psyshock Mega Slowbro, and unlike its Mega Hera, which struggles to handle Clefable, Toxic Orb Hera demolishes it, OHKOing Magic Guard at +2 and 2HKOing Unaware. It's similar to Conk, as it's a team's status absorber, but instead of doing well v. offense, it excels v. defense. I'd even argue that Hera does better v. defense than conk does v. offense, as there are very few stallmons able to stand up to hera. However, it's slow and has a pretty poor defensive typing, so its performance against offense is less than stellar. It however can kind of check Scarf Landorus-T, as it has a 68.8% chance to OHKO it after Stealth Rock at +1. I think C+ could even be worth it for this beast, as its performance v. stall is just so good.

This may be extreme, but I personally think this should be unranked, or at least moved to D. Yes, I realize that nothing can KO it... but once you get past that, why would you run this over Mega Zam, who's more powerful, faster, and has the once made fun of Trace, which is actually why it's such an effective revenge killer. Without Trace, you wouldn't be able to handle Kingdra, Kabutops, or Excadrill, and wouldn't be able to do things like Intimidate Landog and become more powerful vs. Lando-I. Normal Zam also can't revenge kill Mega Lopunny or Mega Manectric, two things that Zam can. I guess if you really need Zam's movepool but you already have the mega slot taken, you could use normal Zam, but it's still incredibly outclassed by its Mega Evolution.

e: Ok AM i'd personally never use it, but I guess if you really need its support and already have a mevo... I just can't see it as C, the same rank as Dragalge (who probably should go up anyway), Slowking, Goodra, or Froslass. If we de-inflate things I think it'd fit in D fine, but if we keep them a bit inflated, maybe C-. I just think C overestimates its potential a tad.

Finally I'm just gonna say other noms I agree with:

- Pidgeot to B-
- Hydreigon to C+/B-
- Lopunny to S
- Mega Sableye to S

The thing about sash kazam is that it is an emergency button and while timid unboosted attack is meh at times it can save you from a sweep if your foe is weakened and we all know how hazards play a huge roll at doing that.

Personally i use him when i have a free slot on the team and nee something that can assure me one extra turn (either for toxic stall, weather or even enemy pp) i wouldn't push it more than C+ tho cuz its low power is a bit underwhelming even when using SE hits, but its better than D since its niche is incredibly good and the only poke to have it.

Edit : also it has a fast taunt/encore if you need that
 
The thing about sash kazam is that it is an emergency button and while timid unboosted attack is meh at times it can save you from a sweep if your foe is weakened and we all know how hazards play a huge roll at doing that.

Personally i use him when i have a free slot on the team and nee something that can assure me one extra turn (either for toxic stall, weather or even enemy pp) i wouldn't push it more than C+ tho cuz its low power is a bit underwhelming even when using SE hits, but its better than D since its niche is incredibly good and the only poke to have it.

Edit : also it has a fast taunt/encore if you need that
Another selling point is that with Focus Sash and Thunder Wave, you can royally screw over Dragon Dancer's like Char-X and offensive Altaria that would otherwise outspeed Alakazam and the rest of your team. Even if Zam isn't going to get the KO, it can cripple the opponent so teammates can handle it later. It's not the greatest 'Mon, but Magic Guard and Focus Sash give it a useful enough niche to leave it ranked
 
I'd like to chime in on one nomination that has been going around, and that is Mega Pidgeot. I honestly don't think it deserves B- ranking, for the sole fact that it is mostly eclipsed by Torn-T in the role of a fast hurricane spammer IMO.
Let's take a look at the advantages Mega pidgeot possesses over torn-T
1: Always 100% accurate hurricane (and to a lesser extent, heat wave)
2: Roost
3: Higher base special attack, so it doesn't have to take LO damage or be locked into an attack in order to have significant power.
4: Stab hyper beam I guess?
5: Resilient to knock off, like any mega.
Not a very impressive list, now let's look at Torn-T's advantages
1: A much wider list of coverage, including Super power, knock off, focus blast, grass knot, etc.
2: A much higher attack stat, allowing it to go mixed to beat pokemon pidgeot could never hope to, such as chansey, spdef Heatran, etc.
3: Doesn't take up a mega slot (A very big advantage with all the viable megas you could use instead of m-pidgeot)
4: The ability to use an item, such as LO, AV, Choice specs, expert belt, etc.
5: Regenerator, which is nice to offset damage from weak/resisted moves, SR, LO, and more, without wasting a turn to use roost.

Clearly Torn-T wins here.
While the hurricane accuracy sucks, it CAN be remedied with rain, but isn't required. While I'm not saying Mega Pidgeot is garbage, I just think it is mostly outclassed by torn-t and its ranking should reflect that. C+ is the highest I'd want to see it
 
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Having Hurricane as your primary STAB and Focus Blast as your best coverage move is just terrible, sorry. Tornadus-T is a fantastic Pokemon when it works, but the risk is just too high. I'd choose Pidgeot over it in a heartbeat.
 
Having Hurricane as your primary STAB and Focus Blast as your best coverage move is just terrible, sorry. Tornadus-T is a fantastic Pokemon when it works, but the risk is just too high. I'd choose Pidgeot over it in a heartbeat.
The point about focus blast really doesn't make much sense. Yes it's inaccurate, but Pidgeot doesn't even have the option to use focus blast, so why would that be a negative for torn? Pidgeot is hard walled by quite a lot in today's meta while torn actually is surprisingly difficult to wall, having hurricane with great neutral coverage and power and fantastic coverage options to nail resists, and knock off to get rid of lefties/eviolite. Also, unless you are running specs, I'd rather superpower over focus blast anyway as it hits every target of FB (barring maybe Skarmory if you lack heat wave, and Rhyperior if no grass knot) just as hard if not harder, and smacks chansey around. Yes, the hurricane accuracy is really annoying without rain to patch it up, the inability to use another mega, fairly bland coverage, and lack of regenerator is a big price to pay for 30% accuracy on your STAB.

Edit: Also forgot to mention in my previous post that no guard also makes pidgeot not able to avoid anything, and also has to waste a turn to mega evolve and get its boost in speed whereas torn-T does not, two more advantages torn-T has over it.

Edit 2 @ below: This is also very true, I kinda touched on it earlier saying you can't use a mega. My point still somewhat stands though, if you really need something to fill mega pidgeot's role, you might as well use torn-T AND have room for another mega
 
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I think the biggest issue with Mega Pidgeot isn't justifying using it over Tornadus-T, but justifying using it over another fast mega, particularly Lopunny. Lopunny also serves the purpose of a reliable late-game cleaner (admittedly missing a high jump kick sucks), but it's faster, stronger with High Jump Kick, and resists stealth rock while having better bulk in general. It also doesn't have a usable movepool that consists of literally like five moves, and it doesn't have to worry about very common pokemon such as Heatran and Rotom-W preventing it from accomplishing much of anything early game. Another example is Mega Manectric, which has a useful ability pre-mega which grants it switch-in opportunities, an even better ability for facilitating switch-ins post-mega, is once again faster once it megas without having a stealth rock weakness, and while admittedly weaker, it has Volt Switch which provides utility early game while obviously outdamaging Mega Pidgeot's weak U-turn. I just don't see Mega Pidgeot offering enough utility to justify using it over faster, more versatile megas who don't require nearly as much team support.
 
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I think the biggest issue with Mega Pidgeot isn't justifying using it over Tornadus-T, but justifying using it over another fast mega, particularly Lopunny. Lopunny also serves the purpose of a reliable late-game cleaner (admittedly missing a high jump kick sucks), but it's faster, stronger with High Jump Kick, and resists stealth rock while having better bulk in general. It also doesn't have a usable movepool that consists of literally like five moves, and it doesn't have to worry about very common pokemon such as Heatran and Rotom-W preventing it from accomplishing much of anything early game. Another example is Mega Manctric, which has a useful ability pre-mega which grants it switch-in opportunities, an even better ability for facilitating switch-ins post-mega, is once again faster once it megas without having a stealth rock weakness, and while admittedly weaker, it has Volt Switch which provides utility early game while obviously outdamaging Mega Pidgeot's weak U-turn. I just don't see Mega Pidgeot offering enough utility to justify using it over faster, more versatile megas who don't require nearly as much team support.

Well actually M pidgeot may not be faster than lopunny and it isnt 2hkoed by hjk and has 40-50%chance to 2hko while pidgeot 2hkos. Even hjk+return doesnt 2hko even unless rocks are on and M scept doesnt ohko while timid hurricane does. Also M burd has u turn for momentum and while if NEEDS dugtrio to get rid Heatran and or electric pokemons its not like tornadus T doesnt need support either and relying on very bad accuracy or statdrops is really bad as well as having to switch out for hp recovery.
Hell M burd forces enough switches to run HW,Hurricane, roost and defog as a fast offensive defogger. Youcan run hp grass or ground to chouse your counters (ground for heatran, grass for rhyperior or swampert/quagsire).
 
Also forgot to mention in my previous post that no guard also makes pidgeot not able to avoid anythinga
Right, uh... can someone please explain to me why this was ever considered a flaw? No, really, I fail to get it. Yes, it is now unable to avoid three inaccurate powerful moves it's weak to. What's the point here? Thunder is never run outside of rain, Blizzard is lol, and Stone Edge... why the fuck are you staying in on Stone Edge? Every single time I see "stone edge is 100% accurate on it" I just have no idea why this makes sense as a flaw because Stone Edge isn't that inaccurate, you're weak to it anyway so it's already a problem, and you would never stay in on it. Can someone please explain the big problem here to me? Because I'm just not seeing it. Mega Pidgeot has a ton of flaws but holy fucking shit this really reeks of trying to find more problems than are actually there.
 
Right, uh... can someone please explain to me why this was ever considered a flaw? No, really, I fail to get it. Yes, it is now unable to avoid three inaccurate powerful moves it's weak to. What's the point here? Thunder is never run outside of rain, Blizzard is lol, and Stone Edge... why the fuck are you staying in on Stone Edge? Every single time I see "stone edge is 100% accurate on it" I just have no idea why this makes sense as a flaw because Stone Edge isn't that inaccurate, you're weak to it anyway so it's already a problem, and you would never stay in on it. Can someone please explain the big problem here to me? Because I'm just not seeing it. Mega Pidgeot has a ton of flaws but holy fucking shit this really reeks of trying to find more problems than are actually there.

It's for those noobs who leaves M-Pidgeot in on a Scarf Terrakion...
 
Right, uh... can someone please explain to me why this was ever considered a flaw? No, really, I fail to get it. Yes, it is now unable to avoid three inaccurate powerful moves it's weak to. What's the point here? Thunder is never run outside of rain, Blizzard is lol, and Stone Edge... why the fuck are you staying in on Stone Edge? Every single time I see "stone edge is 100% accurate on it" I just have no idea why this makes sense as a flaw because Stone Edge isn't that inaccurate, you're weak to it anyway so it's already a problem, and you would never stay in on it. Can someone please explain the big problem here to me? Because I'm just not seeing it. Mega Pidgeot has a ton of flaws but holy fucking shit this really reeks of trying to find more problems than are actually there.
I wasn't really referring to Stone edge, as obviously like you said you wouldn't stay in on it anyway. Pidgeot is going to be the target of more moves with imperfect accuracy than just stone edge, and although a miss should never be relied on, a m-lopunny missing her hjk or Latios missing his Draco in situations where you can't afford to switch something else in could be potentially game changing. It is a very small disadvantage, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
 
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I wasn't really referring to Stone edge, as obviously like you said you wouldn't stay in on it anyway. Pidgeot is going to be the target of more moves with imperfect accuracy than just stone edge, and although a miss should never be relied on, a m-lopunny missing her hjk or Latios missing his Draco could be potentially game changing. It is a very small disadvantage, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
That shouldn't be taken into account when discussing its viability, like, at all.
 
I wasn't really referring to Stone edge, as obviously like you said you wouldn't stay in on it anyway. Pidgeot is going to be the target of more moves with imperfect accuracy than just stone edge, and although a miss should never be relied on, a m-lopunny missing her hjk or Latios missing his Draco in situations where you can't afford to switch something else in could be potentially game changing. It is a very small disadvantage, but a disadvantage nonetheless.

Compared to all its other problems this is the least of its worries
 
I'd like to chime in on one nomination that has been going around, and that is Mega Pidgeot. I honestly don't think it deserves B- ranking, for the sole fact that it is mostly eclipsed by Torn-T in the role of a fast hurricane spammer IMO.
Let's take a look at the advantages Mega pidgeot possesses over torn-T
1: Always 100% accurate hurricane (and to a lesser extent, heat wave)
2: Roost
3: Higher base special attack, so it doesn't have to take LO damage or be locked into an attack in order to have significant power.
4: Stab hyper beam I guess?
5: Resilient to knock off, like any mega.
Not a very impressive list [Ok that's just bullshit. I actually think this is an extremely impressive list, being able to switch into Knock Off, having reliable recovery outside of Regenerator which Torn-T possesses and a 100% accurate Hurricane and Heat Wave, the former of which is extremely inaccurate. Not to mention it means that switching in ZardY won't dip it's accuracy to a pitiful 50%] , now let's look at Torn-T's advantages
1: A much wider list of coverage, including Super power, knock off, focus blast, grass knot, etc. When did it use Grass Knot?
2: A much higher attack stat, allowing it to go mixed to beat pokemon pidgeot could never hope to, such as chansey, spdef Heatran, etc.
3: Doesn't take up a mega slot (A very big advantage with all the viable megas you could use instead of m-pidgeot) Tbh I personally think MPidgeot's role is unique, and while there is some opportunity cost, if you do use it for all the right reasons then there's little you're missing out on.
4: The ability to use an item, such as LO, AV, Choice specs, expert belt, etc. Only AV and Choice Specs are viable for the most part. One of these doesn't hit nearly as hard and the other is locked into a move.
5: Regenerator, which is nice to offset damage from weak/resisted moves, SR, LO, and more, without wasting a turn to use roost.

Clearly Torn-T wins here.
While the hurricane accuracy sucks, it CAN be remedied with rain, but isn't required. While I'm not saying Mega Pidgeot is garbage, I just think it is mostly outclassed by torn-t and its ranking should reflect that. C+ is the highest I'd want to see it

There's so much wrong with this post. I'm going to attend to it in bold. After doing this, I've come to the conclusion that it's infact Not completely eclipsed because the advantages it does posses are well worth the trouble, and therefore it's ranking should reflect this instead. B- is a very fitting rank for this thing, especially considering the Pokemon in there. I definitely deem it more viable than Conkelldur, Lucario and Scolipede, and on par with everything else in that rank, apart from a few stinkers I think should move down.
 
Popping in to say that I agree with Mega Pidgeot rising to B-. As a standalone mon, Pidgeot is pretty trash, but it doesn't have to be alone. The mons that make it work can form a team comparable to Gen 5's Rain with Tornadus-T and Dugtrio. And its effectiveness on that sort of team is what I'm basing its viability on.
 
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