-Clone- MikeDawg
I'm not staunchly pro-ban on Mega Metagross, but considering it is a hot topic and definitely a possible suspect, I figured I would comment on some of the posts here because I feel they are doing the complete opposite of what they say they are doing: these posts are severely underrating Mega Metagross.
-Clone- said:
Lol. Gross has plenty of checks. To name a few, Physically defensive Mew, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Slowbro, Mega Sableye, Quagsire, Heatran, Hippowdon, and Ferrothorn all check / counter Metagross depending on it's set.
First of all, I don't know where you got the idea that Heatran checks Mega Metagross because regardless of Earthquake or Hammer Arm, Mega Metagross has it covered more than well enough. Furthermore, your list of counters shrinks enormously if you consider the (mostly standard) set of Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Grass Knot. If you consider this, the likes of Slowbro, Quagsire, Heatran, Hippowdon, and Ferrothorn are all taken out of the picture. That leaves physically defensive Mew, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Mega Sableye, which is a fairly short list in and of itself, but what's even scarier is that this list isn't even completely correct. Mega Sableye isn't really an answer to Mega Metagross:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
Do you call this remotely consistent? I certainly don't. The 4.7% chance to 2HKO is fairly low and almost negligible, granted, but taking into account the chance to miss the first one or the second one and chance to raise Attack, this number translates into ~19%, which makes this seem a lot less peachy then it does at first. Certain other 'counters' like physically defensive Mew and Gliscor lose to an Attack raise as well. Sure, you can call this hax, but this probability skyrockets when you think about two, three, or more switch-ins; essentially, these Pokemon lose over multiple switch-ins throughout the course of a game and have a 16% chance to lose the first time anyways. Landorus-T can't even switch in initially so something else has to have fun taking the first hit, though it's decent once you've gotten Metagross to Mega. For the sake of completeness, I'll include that Alomomola, Counter Skarmory, and bulky Mega Scizor are actually solid counters, but that's...literally it. This thing is extremely hard to deal with defensively. 'Not all of them run Hammer GK' is not an excuse when that's the set with the fewest counters and very common.
I haven't even touched on offensive teams yet. They, too, have ways of dealing with Metagross. People say that offense has no switchins, but that's how offense has been since forever. And even then that's false. Lando T, Gyarados, and mega Scizor, can switch in, to name a few.
Sure, it might be acceptable for offense to have no switch-ins, but this only applies to things that offense can effectively revenge kill or check. Unfortunately, this isn't even the case with Mega Metagross. At full health, for the most part including Stealth Rock damage, Mega Metagross tanks stuff like max Attack Landorus-T EQ, non-CB Talonflame (almost all of them in this metagame) Flare Blitz, Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump, Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick (with relative ease), Scarftar Crunch (only does like 70%), Air Balloon Excadrill EQ (it has a 6.3% chance to be KOed at full health), Mega Gyarados Crunch, Jolly (typically used over Adamant now) LO Bisharp Sucker Punch, +3 Manaphy Scald, and +1 Mega Altaria EQ (with relative ease). Think about that and realize how difficult is for offense to even revenge kill Mega Metagross without saccing one Pokemon if not more, depending on how well the Mega Metagross user plays it. Mega Metagross is absolutely devastating to offense because both checking and revenge killing it, aka how offense handles threats, are really difficult. To add to that, the Agility set shits on offense if Landorus-T is weakened a little bit, or you can have a lot of fun dealing with Keldeo if they carry Pursuit for Latios. Look at it this way: standard all-out attacker Mega Metagross does so well against offense with its insane bulk -- even with no investment at all -- and power, but it even has options to enhance its destructive capabilities against offense. This screams the exact opposite of what you've stated in Mega Metagross being manageable for offense, because in many regards it's really not.
I'm going to tackle MikeDawg's post point-by-point because even individual points are flawed.
MikeDawg said:
It certainly isn't centralizing, though, especially to the extent that it would warrant a ban. Metagross is covered by blanket checks. Skarm can easily beat it with counter/whirlwind+spikes, slowbro can tank any attack and threaten a burn, rocky helmet damage, or just wearning it down on the special side. It can beat mega bro with grass knot, but that also requires a predicted switch, and grass knot will barely touch anything else. Gliscor can tank just about everything bar ice punch, and that leaves Metagross open to Gliscor's common teammates due to that coverage slot being used up. Ferrothorn can wall any variant that doesn't carry hammer arm, and iron barbs+leech seed are wearning Metagross down regardless.
Skarmory is not a 'blanket check'; it is a specialized, passive defensive Pokemon that is almost solely used on stall teams for that reason. It is one of the easiest Pokemon in the OU tier to take advantage of and I really don't think that requires much in the way of explanation. It is a Mega Metagross counter, but you're overselling it as a Pokemon in the tier. Slowbro can't 'tank any attack'; it's 2HKOed by Grass Knot and the obvious Slowbro switch makes it so easy to go for, so you can force the opponent to make risky plays. I talked about Gliscor earlier (an okay counter though not long-term) and Ferrothorn is 2HKOed Hammer Arm, which is on almost every Mega Metagross used by a decent-good player so it's almost irrelevant to consider non-Hammer Arm variants.
Scarf lando-t has a wonderful time with Metagross
Actually:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 231-273 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with Clear Body)
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's not having a wonderful time; it doesn't even beat full health Mega Metagross if it switches in.
defensive lando-t can deal with all but ice punch variants
This is only true if Mega Metagross has Mega Evolved first and it's still worn out very quickly.
On offense, it has a relatively difficult time megavolving due to its initially low speed and bulk.
What? Mega Metagross matches up well against so many common Pokemon, including Latis, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Clefable, Keldeo, etc. Mega Metagross finds it so easy to Mega Evolve against offense and it's not like its normal form has no bulk; 80/130/90 is still pretty bulky.
Things like rotom can soft check it with the threat of will-o-wisp
This isn't untrue, but this doesn't help when you need something to switch into Mega Metagross and you simply don't have anything.
mons like talonflame can threaten a wisp or a flare blitz
Wisp from Talonflame is a threat, granted, but Flare Blitz does not KO. Let that sink in for a moment; a STAB Flare Blitz does not OHKO a Pokemon that is weak to it and has 0 defensive investment.
Thundurus can do major damage or paralyze it.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Depends on what you define as major damage, but 60% off its HP and a dead Thundurus or healthy Metagross and a dead Thundurus are both winning situations for Mega Metagross.
Bisharp threatens a strong sucker punch.
Sure, it can revenge kill Mega Metagross, that's true. But then they can switch and you lose all momentum, and you have to take a significant risk if you want to predict the switch. Keldeo is a common partner for Mega Metagross, so chances are momentum is about to get stolen right out of your hands, just on the off-chance that Metagross will stay in. And even then:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You even have to weaken Mega Metagross for this to kill.
Manectric intimidates and threatens a KO with Overheat. Mega Scizor can nearly wall it while whittling away with knock off.
The first one is true; Mega Manectric is one of the best offensive Mega Metagross checks because it outspeeds, has Intimidate, and can OHKO with Overheat or gain momentum with Volt Switch because the Metagross user will most likely switch. The second one, however, is only true for bulkier versions of Mega Scizor. Hammer Arm typically 2HKOes the standard offensive SD, which is usually what you want to run on offense because it is a significantly more dangerous and fast-paced sweeper than defensive variants, after SR damage, which rely on long-term weakening of counters to sweep and are more suited to teams erring toward balance.
It only speed ties many of the other megas.
See, this might be more relevant if the other 110 Megas (Diancie and Gallade) had a good matchup against Mega Metagross, but they don't. Mega Metagross obviously OHKOes Mega Diancie, and it does 80-94.5 to Mega Gallade while Gallade's Close Combat only does about 60%.
The issue is that these are all mons that teams would be running whether or not Metagross exists. Aside from a few more Megas gaining a bit of popularity, I doubt that banning Metagross would have a substatial impact on the meta at all, especially when compared to a mon like Greninja. This is completely anecdotal evidence, but I have personally never had an issue with Metagross, and I have never considered it in teambuilding. It is as scary to face as any S-Rank threat, and I would argue that mons like Keldeo, Gardevoir, Sableye, and the Latis have a significantly greter impact as far as team restriction goes. Even sylveon poses a greater threat in the teambuilder due to how easy it is to be weak to strong fairy attacks.
Your first sentence here is mostly true, but everything past there isn't even close to valid. 'I have never had an issue with Metagross' sounds an awful lot like 'I have never had an issue with Greninja', which is completely anecdotal and irrelevant. What's more is that there is no way that's true unless you've advanced in ways that are eluding everyone else, because Mega Metagross even puts insane pressure on teams that are prepared for it. Take an anti-Metagross core for offense in Scarf Lando-T + Manectric; on paper, you've got Mega Metagross covered reasonably well, but in practice you're still getting pressured by Mega Metagross. Take Slowbro + defensive Landorus-T. Slowbro is threatened by Grass Knot and you can just whittle at Landorus-T every time that it's forced to come in until its in range where it's no longer a threat. Take defensive Landorus-T + Rotom-W + WoW Talonflame on balance. You have a Pokemon that can actually tank a few hits, one that can soft check with the Intimidate support, and another that can check with the burn. Mega Metagross can just spam Zen Headbutt and damage/pressure this group of Pokemon. Pokemon like Keldeo, Gardevoir, and Latis, heck even Sableye, have much more to work with in the way of actual counters and a variety of checks. Mega Metagross puts an insane amount of stress on teambuilding because one answer just isn't enough; you need more than that to be safe against getting whittled by and losing to it. How isn't that centralizing? Sure, you might carry certain of those Pokemon anyways, but you need to prepare for it in multiple different ways, which is a major limiting factor.
