Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

[Skankovich]

So when I saw NU got some new drops I was really excited because it's been a while since NU got some drops, and after looking at the list of drops my immediate thought was, "Vileplume is gonna be really good." So here it is.



Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Aromatherapy/Leech Seed/Hidden Power Fire
- Moonlight

Yes that's right it's a mixed Vileplume, but before you call me garbage or bad just hear me out. With the given EV spread you aren't 2hkoed by any attacks from Heliolisk, Virizion, Mawile, Quagsire or Claydol.
Relevant Calcs

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- 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Vileplume: 80-95 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- 252 Atk Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Vileplume: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- 96.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Vileplume: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Vileplume: 89-105 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- 0 SpA Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Vileplume: 118-140 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- 17.1% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Moveset is standard, Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain for stab, Synthesis for recovery, and the final moveslot is up to you. Aromatherapy can be used to help support your team. Hidden Power Fire can be used to beat Mawile easier and be able to at least hit Steelix even if it is for minuscule damage. Leech Seed is the last option and is sort of a middle ground. It's let you beat steel types by wearing them down like Hidden Power Fire but can also support your team by giving them hp back when they switchin. All in all Vileplume will be a great Pokemon in this tier because it checks all the new drops.

This shouldn't be confused with a counter tho. You can use Vileplume as your only Virizion/Heliolisk check and need some other ones on your team, but they don't need to be hard checks. Particularly you'll want a check for CM Virizion because Vileplume struggles against it. A great teammate for this set would be Xatu, because it has good synergy with Vileplume and it beats the cm Virizion set. So their you go, you shouldn't be afraid of the new drops. It's been forever since NU got some drops and I can't wait to see how the metagame develops.

Heliolisk got Hyper Voice in ORAS, so unfortunately:

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Vileplume: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

More spdef solves the issue but then you handle Viriz/general physical attackers worse :[

 

[Dentricos]

OK I literally don't get why people are acting like this mon is easily manageable.

Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Zen Headbutt
- Swords Dance
​

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 398-468 (119.1 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Vileplume: 291-343 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 377-447 (107.7 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 317-374 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor: 289-341 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 343-406 (82.8 - 98%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 434-512 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 224-265 (67 - 79.3%)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb burned Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 112-133 (33.5 - 39.8%)
4 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 138-164 (42.5 - 50.6%)

Virizion does not need stab leaf blade for it to put in work. With this set it can nearly sweep the metagame. Virizion beats mega lix and will still put in a huge hit if they decide to go 100% max defense. There is only one case when leaf blade is really needed but it is enough to force people not to switch this in

252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 484-567 (122.8 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

So now your best switch-in will almost never come in considering the commonness of grass stab. Personally I find this a bit gross. Most of the time you will be FORCED to run a scarfer even if it doesn't fit ur team and it might still be fodder something every time this finds a time to come in.

Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Calm Mind​

252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 702-832 (178.1 - 211.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

28 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 116-140 (35.8 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 291-343 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 116-136 (38.5 - 45.1%)

0 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 70-84 (21.6 - 25.9%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 354-419 (105.9 - 125.4%)

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 619-733 (174.8 - 207%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 424-502 (93.3 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 184-220 (56.7 - 67.9%)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-S: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
4 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%)

This set is obviously less viable since more things switch in on it better but considering the fact that viriz is not weak to rocks it can put in large chunks of damage on things like garbodor and exeggutor while it sets up on other mons. You can bring this monster in again and again and do wonders against ur opponents squads.

Virizion @ Light Clay
Ability: Justified
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Synthesis
​

Yes. This thing is bulky. Set up screens again and again with reliable recovery and taunt to prevent ur opponent from doing shit. This mon has base 108 speed which means it reks shop in terms of being fast bulky support... I don't know what else to say... I really don't...


Edit:

Accidentally put leftovers as calm mind item. That could work but I'm changing it since my calcs had life orb.

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

u know wut the problem with priority is? its so damn weak
so...

Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
Evs: 84 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Solarbeam
- Psychic/Psyshock

Who wouldnt love stab priority with 120 and 90/80 base power???? Once u weaken up they team a bit with hazards and small attacks, this makes a nice clean up mon. Carry a pursuiter to hit xatu, and wallbreaker for random calm mind pokemon as well. Ez innovation amirite?

Aladyyn approves

 

[DiscoDucky]

Don't deny it kids. Stall is now really good in NU. Steelix + Quaggy is going to be good.

 

[DiscoDucky]

u know wut the problem with priority is? its so damn weak
so...

Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
Evs: 84 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Solarbeam
- Psychic/Psyshock

Who wouldnt love stab priority with 120 and 90/80 base power???? Once u weaken up they team a bit with hazards and small attacks, this makes a nice clean up mon. Carry a pursuiter to hit xatu, and wallbreaker for random calm mind pokemon as well. Ez innovation amirite?

Aladyyn approves

Custap is illegal iirc

 

[boltsandbombers]

Custap is illegal iirc

It was just released either yesterday or today, it is legal.

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

Custap is illegal iirc

Its not anymore, earlier posts and fites show its perfectly legal

 

[Teddeh]

Why is heliolisk so god damn good? It's coverage is far too good, it beats all the bulky waters running around and it's speed tier is godly. It rips to shreads any ground type and hits like a truck too. Ngl, I can see this mon getting suspected very soon. Just off the top of my head, only things that are bulky enough to take its hits then oh ko are going to beat it or a rare number of pokemon that outspeed.
So use the lizard while you can children!

 

[Talpr0ne]

Inb4 Golurk rises because it counters Heliolisk's STAB combo.
Jk the thing learns Surf and Grass Knot.

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

Why is heliolisk so god damn good? It's coverage is far too good, it beats all the bulky waters running around and it's speed tier is godly. It rips to shreads any ground type and hits like a truck too. Ngl, I can see this mon getting suspected very soon. Just off the top of my head, only things that are bulky enough to take its hits then oh ko are going to beat it or a rare number of pokemon that outspeed.
So use the lizard while you can children!

Heliolisk has plenty of checks, although bulky teams like stall get torn apart voice by voice, its kinda like a pyroar, with less power/utility and more coverage. Its only problem is the lack of non assault vested switchins

 

[Evan.]

While its only been 1 day, its clear that helio one of, if not the best mon in the meta right now. It'll be interesting to see how the meta adapts (cradily anyone?) But i agree that adding helio to the suspects isnt out of the question

 

[boltsandbombers]

While its only been 1 day, its clear that helio one of, if not the best mon in the meta right now. It'll be interesting to see how the meta adapts (cradily anyone?) But i agree that adding helio to the suspects isnt out of the question

And if Cradily gets popular enough to be used as a Helio check, it will just use Focus Miss Blast :s

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

Amagad just use spdef rotom cuz no one smart runs dark pulse

 

[boltsandbombers]

Amagad just use spdef rotom cuz no one smart runs dark pulse

Its still 3HKOed by Surf after rocks and Helio is immune to Shadow Ball and takes like 15% from Volt Switch. Kinda shaky at best.

 

[ryan]

Can we not complain about how broken everything is one day after they've entered the tier? Take some time to play around with the new Pokemon and see what they struggle against. Look around the teambuilder and try to find interesting new Pokemon that might do well in the metagame. That's how I ended up building teams with Lunatone, Pignite, Tyrunt, etc. and even though none of them have astounded me, they all did what I needed them to (Lunatone beat Camerupt, Pignite checked Fire-types, and Tyrunt was adorable). And even if that doesn't work, there are plenty of Pokemon in the metagame that check these new drops well.

I'm also not sure why you would Heat Wave a Virizion with your Xatu, especially against a Calm Mind variant.
0 SpA Xatu Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

One thing I wanted to mention is that SD Samurott is a great Pokemon to combat potential new builds of stall with Quagsire. Razor Shell has a 50% chance to drop Defense, which allows you to break Quagsire over time. You probably won't 6-0 stall teams that have Quagsire because it can Toxic or fish for Scald burns, but you're bound to get at least a kill or two, giving way for teammates to clean much more easily. Unfortunately, SD Samurott struggles with Virizion and Heliolisk as much as SD Feraligatr, but its ability to dismantle bulkier teams is nearly incomparable. Shoutouts to my boy Magmortar as well.

 

[atomicllamas]

Why is heliolisk so god damn good? It's coverage is far too good, it beats all the bulky waters running around and it's speed tier is godly. It rips to shreads any ground type and hits like a truck too. Ngl, I can see this mon getting suspected very soon. Just off the top of my head, only things that are bulky enough to take its hits then oh ko are going to beat it or a rare number of pokemon that outspeed.
So use the lizard while you can children!

An Electric-type that beats bulky Waters must be broken

(also it loses to Lanturn so its isn't even true)

the bolded is true of literally every offensive Pokemon so I don't see your point. Like, "I have to carry checks and counters to this Pokemon in order to beat it!" no shit.

 

[Grimey]

An Electric-type that beats bulky Waters must be broken

(also it loses to Lanturn so its isn't even true)

the bolded is true of literally every offensive Pokemon so I don't see your point. Like, "I have to carry checks and counters to this Pokemon in order to beat it!" no shit.

Please explain how Heliolisk loses to Lanturn in any sort of way whatsoever.

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 156-184 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- 47.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's WITHOUT Rocks which your opponent 100% won't be able to spin/defog away because Heliolisk literally threatens every single spinner/defogger.

0 SpA Lanturn Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 55-65 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Lanturn Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 32-38 (12 - 14.3%) -- possible 7HKO

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

An Electric-type that beats bulky Waters must be broken

(also it loses to Lanturn so its isn't even true)

the bolded is true of literally every offensive Pokemon so I don't see your point. Like, "I have to carry checks and counters to this Pokemon in order to beat it!" no shit.

What does lanturn hit it with other then toxic?

 

[boltsandbombers]

What does lanturn hit it with other then toxic?

You pivot out into something faster or a scarfer.

 

[Oshony PokeGod]

You pivot out into something faster or a scarfer.

Thats not beating it, thats delaying getting destroyed by it later

 

[Swagodile]

Yeah, Lanturn isn't exactly a reliable answer to Heliolisk.

It won't like taking STAB Hyper Voices.

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 152-179 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[atomicllamas]

You're right, Grimey, a Pokemon choice locked into HP Grass is super threatening (also why would it not be running Grass Knot or Hyper Voice, cause HP Grass literally only hits Lanturn harder than GK, and Hyper Voice hits Lanturn harder than HP Grass anyways). You switch in with Lanturn, if they used Electric or Water move you won (especially if choice locked), Volt Switch gains momentum as they switch out. If you switch into HP Grass (rofl hp grass) or Hyper Voice you switch out into something that resists or is immune to it. I still don't see how Heliolisk beating bulky Waters makes it broken or even suspect worthy, maybe it will turn out to be suspect worthy, but its been in the meta game one day and the reasoning given for a potential suspect was legitimately retarded, as most Electric-types beat most Water-types !

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

No one uses Specs Heliolisk in NU bcuz Life Orb allows it to actually abuse it's amazing coverage. If you are using Specs, it's obviously nowhere as threatening bcuz it's STABs both can be blocked by a Ground or Electric-type. The reason Heliolisk is good is because it can switch moves, wallbreak as well as provide momentum, so it works on Balance as well as HO really well.

 

[Teddeh]

An Electric-type that beats bulky Waters must be broken

(also it loses to Lanturn so its isn't even true)

the bolded is true of literally every offensive Pokemon so I don't see your point. Like, "I have to carry checks and counters to this Pokemon in order to beat it!" no shit.

The difference with heliolisk and every other electric type is that it's immune to scald, hence can switch in no problem and can make people think twice before clicking their water move on defensive mons that have to be run right now if people don't want to lose to shit like mega-steelix. Pair these two together and you have a field day.
I never said anything was broken hollywood , I just said it was good and i could see it getting suspected. And it beats lanturn, since it resists/ is immune to either stabs. And when i said that you need to run bulky things, i meant there's nothing that hard walls it, you're having to use things like musharna, uxie, hariyama, bulky grass types to beat it (it learns signal beam and can easily run hp fire) so where i was going with it apart from the obvious "herp a derp teddehs a fucking moron he has to run a check for a pokemon derp derp derp" but rather a general stand point for that heliolisk has some insane coverage. So lay off with the "No SHIT" and ignore my bad writing skills because I was tired when I wrote that post.

 

[Dentricos]

And if Cradily gets popular enough to be used as a Helio check, it will just use Focus Miss Blast :s

It would have to hit 2 focus blasts tho!