np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[thesecondbest]

On the subject of fairy spam; I... don't see how that's true? Just looking at usage stats, Ferrothorn and Heatran are incredibly common which I can assure you has nothing to do with trying to beat Metagross. Hell without Metagross those two would have more breathing room to get in and check/counter fairies. Other common steel-types are starting to come into play as well like Scizor - extremely underrated non-mega atm - and Jirachi, so I wouldn't start fearing fairies all of a sudden.
Regardless, if this is your reason for not wanting to ban it, keep in mind that this is a Broken Checking Broken argument and is not legitimate.

OK this post completely changed my mind. At first I thought we needed mega gross to check disgusting crap like specs sylv and to break through clefable, I realize that it's too harmful for the meta to stay. Imagine mega pinsir, but speed tying with latis, no rocks weakness, and better bulk (albeit no sd). It destroys certain teams due to its free life orb boost, and dual stab hammer arm + filler is fantastic coverage. I'm in favor of a BAN.

EDIT: Scarf lando is really too used, practically every team has to have one for this thing

 

[Steve Angello]

Alright, I was thinking about posting or not but in the end, I want to list some points. Mega Metagross is obviously centralizing. The reason for it is the mix of Bulk, Speed and Power. Furthermore it's ability rises the attacks like a Life Orb without recoil. But there is something the most people do not care about. Metagross has access to Magnetrise, which means Hippowdown is not able to touch Metagross anymore. I mean Grassknot is a clean 2hit anyway, but Magnetrise will completly wall Landorus-T, Hippowdown, Garchomp without Fireblast and so on. Most people forget about the interesting movepool. It can go for Subsitute, Magnet Rise, Power up Punch or even Pursuit is possible. The problem with Metagross is you have to be prepared for every single set, but it takes a bit of time and prediction to guess the right set and something will die till you found out. If somebody adds Quagsire or Bulky Grounds to the counter list, you may be right, but it has the coverage move Grassknot which gets a boost from the ability and 2hit KOs those pokemons easily. If you add Skarmory to the list, Metagross has Thunder Punch and Hammerarm! Both moves help vs Gyarados as well, well Thunder Punch more. Hammerarm forces Skarmory to Whirlwind, because Hammerarm drops Metagross speed and turns into super effective whenever Skarmory is faster and continues roosting. The best answer for Metagross is Mega Scizor in my opinion, because it can not touch it and it has access to Roost, which means Metagross might have no chance to beat it.
My last point is, that this Mega limits teambuilding a lot. I am forced to use at least two soft checks, because it sweeps the teams otherwise, I know Metagross is not the best pick vs me, but there are not many teams who are not weak to it. The point why I think ban would be legit here is, that if you prepare to much for Mega Metagross it opens many other holes for different Megas like Gardevoir or Pinsir, this is the reason why rain and birdspam is really good again.

 

[Random Passerby]

If Mega Metagross doesn't run HP Fire, Mega Scizor can come in on any of its attacks, set up in its face, and sweep while Roosting off the damage. I won't be losing any offensive presense if I know a would-be major threat like Mega Metagross will give me free set up, at which point +6 Attack uninvested will still be good enough to sweep most teams.

0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Mega Scizor: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(78.9% chance to 3HKO)

Don't even try to argue the fact that MegaGross is nothing but set-up bait for one of the most common Pokemon in OU, which is one of the criteria for something to be unbanworthy. Saying that a Pokemon has checks and counters doesn't stop them from being non-broken, but a Pokemon is broken if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing. MegaGross has relevent counters that are all in the same tier as it and it has numerous relevent checks that are also in the same tier. That means playstyles barely change from its presence. Standard Mew has a field day with it. That is the point of my argument, and the reason I stand firmly on the belief that Mega Metagross should not be banned.

I did not even argue that Mega Metagross is not set up on by Mega Scizor but showing that it does doesn't prove anything, really. Sure, Mega Scizor is good and all but what if I want to use some other Mega, say Mega Altaria?

Standard Mew can take its hit, fine but it can't really do anything back except Will-O-Wisp which a teammate will come in and force Mew out. Then, if Mega Metagross comes in again, Mew will not be able to take its hits anymore.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Mega Sableye is a really shaky check since it can't switch in so you need to sac a Pokemon for it. Then, you are forced to Will-o-Wisp (otherwise you risk being 2HKOed) which the opponent can then use to switch and force Mega Eye out.

As for Talonflame, it is easily worn down by Stealth Rock and the fact that it's moves cause huge recoil on itself. Furthermore, it can't switch in since Zen Headbutt cripples it to the point that it needs to Roost.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Finally, Landorus-T and Garchomp. Lando-T relies on Intimidate to check physical threats and that can be mitigated with Clear Body so all of Metagross's moves will sting. And both are outsped (unless Scarfed) and 2HKOed by Meteor Mash and flat out OHKO-ed by Ice Punch.
252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 118-141 (30.8 - 36.9%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Nobody is arguing Mega Metagross is invincible and all (since this is 6 vs 6 not Mega Metagross vs The World) but the fact that it can completely steamroll teams lacking its checks while having the potential to screw over its checks with the right move is what makes it broken.

 

[XLR87T3]

EDIT: Banded t-flame is actually pretty bad rn, SD or stallbreaker t-flame is much better for this metagame. And also, Landorus-T cannot switch in because of Clear Body negating Intimidate and Mash dealing over half after rocks to scarf variants iirc, not counting possible crits/boosts.
And btw, just because t-flame murders it doesn't mean its bad. it murders genesect and shaymin-sky too...

You're probably right about Banded Talonflame. I use BandBird a lot, but what do I know? I was just saying, in OU, MegaGross still has a lot to fear.
Landurus-T doesn't get 2HKO'd even when Intimidate fails, which is all that matters when Lando outspeeds and kills Meta or severely damages another grounded pokemon. It serves its purpose as a check perfectly. And Mega Sableye is still a great check, despite getting 2HKO'd by Meteor Mash.

 

[thesecondbest]

• Physically Defensive Mew
• Bulky Scizor
• Gourgeist-XL
• Doublade (252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 90-108 (27.9 - 33.5%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock)
• Arcanine (-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery; must be wary of Clear Body pre-Mega)
• Skamory (if it has at least 63.5% of its health left, it can live to Counter two Hammer Arms and beat Mega Meta)
• Bronzong
• Mega Aggron
• Cofagrigus
• CM Rest Manaphy
• Tangrowth

Hard checks:

• Cresselia (Loses to Sub PuP unless it runs the sub-optimal Shadow Ball)
• Alomomola (See Cresselia, but without the Shadow Ball part)
• Defensive RestTalk Gyarados (Loses to the uncommon and sub-optimal Thunder Punch; otherwise a full counter)
• Celebi
• Jirachi

Alright, let's go over these to show that mega gross needs to go. He forgot other bulky waters, but GK beats those, so only manaphy actually applies, but most of them run tail glow 3 attacks. All the rest are used on fat stall(also forgot mega sableye pre mega) besides mew and scizor. So two counters that are usable on balance. the checks are also stall besides celebi which i dont think likes this: 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 170-202 (42 - 50%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and rachi loses to eq. so only stall teams ever stand a chance against this god due to its bulk. so yah bai :)

 

[FrocoTerra]

You're probably right about Banded Talonflame. I use BandBird a lot, but what do I know? I was just saying, in OU, MegaGross still has a lot to fear.
Landurus-T doesn't get 2HKO'd even when Intimidate fails, which is all that matters when Lando outspeeds and kills Meta or severely damages another grounded pokemon. It serves its purpose as a check perfectly. And Mega Sableye is still a great check, despite getting 2HKO'd by Meteor Mash.

Hello? Scarf Lando can't KO with EQ and is OHKOed by Ice Punch, and Defensive Lando can't KO, is outsped, and is 2HKOed by Ice Punch. You say it outspeeds, which means it's scarfed, right? Well, it's 2HKOed even if MegaGross doesn't carry Ice Punch. Now, I know a lot of people will say this doesn't apply because Meta is outsped. I was only replying to this post, which claimed that Lando outspeeds and isn't 2HKOed without Intimidate activating.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Sableye is a good check, unless it's on the switch, as it is 2HKOed by Rocks.

 

[XLR87T3]

I did not even argue that Mega Metagross is not set up on by Mega Scizor but showing that it does doesn't prove anything, really. Sure, Mega Scizor is good and all but what if I want to use some other Mega, say Mega Altaria?

Standard Mew can take its hit, fine but it can't really do anything back except Will-O-Wisp which a teammate will come in and force Mew out. Then, if Mega Metagross comes in again, Mew will not be able to take its hits anymore.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mew: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Mega Sableye is a really shaky check since it can't switch in so you need to sac a Pokemon for it. Then, you are forced to Will-o-Wisp (otherwise you risk being 2HKOed) which the opponent can then use to switch and force Mega Eye out.

As for Talonflame, it is easily worn down by Stealth Rock and the fact that it's moves cause huge recoil on itself. Furthermore, it can't switch in since Zen Headbutt cripples it to the point that it needs to Roost.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 249-294 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Finally, Landorus-T and Garchomp. Lando-T relies on Intimidate to check physical threats and that can be mitigated with Clear Body so all of Metagross's moves will sting. And both are outsped (unless Scarfed) and 2HKOed by Meteor Mash and flat out OHKO-ed by Ice Punch.
252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 118-141 (30.8 - 36.9%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Nobody is arguing Mega Metagross is invincible and all (since this is 6 vs 6 not Mega Metagross vs The World) but the fact that it can completely steamroll teams lacking its checks while having the potential to screw over its checks with the right move is what makes it broken.

Okay, first of all, Will-O-Wisp=Neutered MegaGross. Once Meta is burned, or even before, Mew can Roost off damage and then slowly beat it to death. To give you an example:
252 Atk Tough Claws burned Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mega Meta can run like a big chicken and hide behind his friends, but Mew can heal and will find Meta.

As for Mega Sableye, you are correct, but anyone can switch from their counters to bring in their own counters. Will-O-Wisp still destroys MegaGross, making it a check nonetheless.

Landorus-T still outspeeds with a Scarf and wins 1-on-1 with MegaGross, so it's still a great check and situational counter.

Really, though, MegaGross is very predictable. Meteor Mash+Zen Headbutt+Filler+Filler. Anyone can easily send out, say, Rocky Head Ferrothorn on a resisted hit and it has the bulk and the move Protect to scout out the filler moves (Hammer Arm means Landurus can come in and outspeed). This isn't like Greninja where everything gets 2HKOd no matter what move it is. Anything faster has a chance to take MegaGross down with just a little residual damage. Or burn it and gain momentum. Teams don't change for Mega Metagross, their tactics do.

Hello? Scarf Lando can't KO with EQ and is OHKOed by Ice Punch, and Defensive Lando can't KO, is outsped, and is 2HKOed by Ice Punch. You say it outspeeds, which means it's scarfed, right? Well, it's 2HKOed even if MegaGross doesn't carry Ice Punch. Now, I know a lot of people will say this doesn't apply because Meta is outsped. I was only replying to this post, which claimed that Lando outspeeds and isn't 2HKOed without Intimidate activating.

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Sableye is a good check, unless it's on the switch, as it is 2HKOed by Rocks.

Sorry, I thought most people ran Adamant nowadays, since the Choice Scarf gives Lando-T more than enough speed. I apologize for any misunderstandings.

 

[Jarrod]

The most supported anti-ban argument on this thread pertains to the potential brokenness of M-Sableye and M-Diancie (the apparent kings of stall and bulky offense respectively). People are also fearful of fairy dominance and the increased viability of already fantastic mons, such as the Latis. Similar arguments have been used in past suspect tests, but they are usually laughed at by the majority of the community. But there seems to be a large number of people who agree and would rather keep Metagrossite in fear of the metagame descending into chaos.

First of all, the metagame is already pretty chaotic. Many games are determined predominantly by match-up, and M-Metagross plays a huge part in that. Removing Mega Metagross will not make things more chaotic however. It will surely improve things. M-Sableye and M-Diancie won't suddenly become OP without M-Metagross keeping them in check (because M-Meta isn't even the best answer to these mons). Metagross doesn't seem to be holding back any mons in particular. It's really just a powerhouse that pummels into things; it threatens so many pokemon at once but it isn't the sole check for many pokemon. Also, it is important to remember that removing Metagross will not lead to fairy domination, especially given that most fairies (except M-Diancie and M-Altaria) were present in the XY metagame without Mega-Metagross. And let's face it, M-Metagross is an answer to M-Diancie, but not the only strong answer (and it's not a good switch-in).

Secondly, I personally believe that the only safe check to M-Metagross is defensive M-Scizor (Skarmory is too passive and can eventually be KO'd; Ferrothorn isn't even worth the mention as it is hardly a good switch in; Slowbro destroyed by GK; I spose there is an argument for Suicune however). M-Scizor is great but, at the cost of a mega slot, seems like the sole check for M-Metagross that has other roles too.

Lastly, no other pokemon in the OU has the perfect combination of bulk, power and speed. Metagross does. People build teams around this pokemon because it is so damn good, but the team-building is insanely centralised (beyond normal). Mega-Metagross teams always seem to come packing healing wish support just to give Meta a second chance to wreak havoc. The combination of healing wish and mega Metagross can't be stopped easily, it's just excessive. The teams with M-Meta are often boring to play against (Note: this is not a ban argument, but I wanted to say it) because every other team member is nothing but a muppet support mon for Metagross, who is preserved at all cost.

For these key reasons, Metagross has to go. First time in a while that the answer has been so painfully clear. Get rid of it and take a step towards a less chaotic metagame. See you on the ladder. BAN

 

[56k]

It is not overcentralizing because stall will naturally bring counters/checks and any random offensive or balance combination with scarfers, fast fire attacks, bulky waters, bulky grounds, revenge killing, sand/rain speed, will be able to take metagross down in 1-2 turns.

Even if you had zero foresight and preparation any given offensive team would have plenty of things to kill/cripple it. Thundurus t-waves it (dies) then you can bring in banded victini and the tables are turned. Scarftar crunches it (dies) which paves the way for banded talonflame to sweep. These pokemon have no business at all trying to fight a metagross and yet they can still kill it off. Even with 0 checks you still kill it in 2 turns. One of your pokemons died in the process and the opponent can react to your second one but the fact is meta is dead or dying and crisis averted.

Pokemon games rarely end up utilizing the extensive theory calcs that we put together beforehand and instead you often use ad hoc circumstantial methods to take out the threat in front of you. If your team happens to have some nice quality counters to metagross then good for you, it should be an easy battle. On the other hand if you got greedy and decided to pad your team against stall threats but ended up lacking an easy metagross switch in, you'll still have opportunities to status it, encore it, cripple it, surprise scarf kill it, or whatever resources it is that your team happens to have.

If your offensive team has any semblance of speed control, priority, and hits hard enough to disqualify "free turns" then you're set, and I don't see what the argument is about if stall can handle it and offense can outspeed OHKO it with: swampert, manetric, houndoom, talonflame, sharpedo, scarf lando, scarf tran, scarftini. Sand rain and sun all have plenty of things to use against it or deter it from switching in. Trick room eats it up. Anything with prankster can turn the game around. Anything with scald can miraculously stop a sweep. It's manageable overall. no ban

 

[Honus]

Tele outlined it in his post but I think Metagross is very important for preserving the metagame's stability. With it's departure, Mega Diancie, Clefable and Mega Gardevoir essentially retain their dominance [I guess Diancie's is theoretical since it wasn't in XY OU] from XY. Gardevoir is the main one, and Clefable won't be disastrous if we ban Metagross, but I think it helps to have a popular answer to some of the most potent win conditions from XY. People claim mega metagross is hard to teambuild around but Mega Gardevoir is a lot harder to find answers for. Another point that likes to be made is Metagross' versatility, but most of the 'specializations' it can make are very niche, and even if it improves itself in one facet, it loses the ability to hit a decent number of Pokemon like the "best" set of Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm/Grass Knot can. I won't deny that set is very problematic for balanced cores but unlike Aegislash, which Metagross has been compared to, Metagross is fairly prediction reliant. Aegislash could come in on any fairy or psychic and start spamming shadow ball because ghost has 2 resists this generation but Metagross faces a much steeper hill to climb. There are a lot of cases where it can be forced out if it doesn't predict correctly. A common one is Metagross vs. Ferrothorn with Slowbro as ferrothorn's teammate. If Metagross Grass Knots the Ferrothorn, it risks being seeded or Thunder-Waved. If it Hammer Arms into Slowbro then Slowbro forces it out with Scald/Thunder Wave. The standard Metagross set also can't OHKO Scarf Landorus-T, so like with the dominant Charizard-X in XY, Metagross won't get past Scarf Landorus-T [who is basically omnipresent in this game] with one shot. Rotom-W is another Pokemon that forces Metagross to predict correctly in order for it to stay on the field, and that poke is fairly prominent on balance/bulky offense as well. I am not saying extra 50/50s [though they aren't really "Extra"; they're just predictions over the course of the game that Metagross has to face as a vesatile attacker], but rather Metagross doesn't often become immediately effective in the battle because it can't just spam one attack, and it can be forced out and played around by guessing wrong. Aegislash preserved Metagame stability too but the line was drawn at the point where it can consistently rip through teams with minimal prediction and come in at a much lower cost than Metagross. We made the right call on Aegislash but Metagross is not nearly as difficult to play against and its presence prevents the metagame from becoming increasingly chaotic.

First of all, the metagame is already pretty chaotic. Many games are determined predominantly by match-up, and M-Metagross plays a huge part in that. Removing Mega Metagross will not make things more chaotic however. It will surely improve things. M-Sableye and M-Diancie won't suddenly become OP without M-Metagross keeping them in check (because M-Meta isn't even the best answer to these mons). Metagross doesn't seem to be holding back any mons in particular. It's really just a powerhouse that pummels into things; it threatens so many pokemon at once but it isn't the sole check for many pokemon. Also, it is important to remember that removing Metagross will not lead to fairy domination, especially given that most fairies (except M-Diancie) were present in the XY metagame without Mega-Metagross. And let's face it, M-Metagross is an answer to M-Diancie, but not the only strong answer (an it's not a good switch-in).

Seems like you are just assuming things here without considering 'historical evidence' of the metagame after Aegislash's ban. Mega Gardevoir becomes a lot more viable and that poke is as difficult to build for [perhaps even moreso] on balance. Clefable isn't as difficult to play around as Mega Gardevoir but its still fantastic and could win games by whittling notoriously easy to weaken pokemon like Heatran or Talonflame, or predicting a Bisharp switchin and clicking flamethrower. It's nice to make this mon's potential sweeps a bit less definite with the option of Mega-Metagross.

 

[Jarrod]

Seems like you are just assuming things here without considering 'historical evidence' of the metagame after Aegislash's ban. Mega Gardevoir becomes a lot more viable and that poke is as difficult to build for [perhaps even moreso] on balance. Clefable isn't as difficult to play around as Mega Gardevoir but its still fantastic and could win games by whittling notoriously easy to weaken pokemon like Heatran or Talonflame, or predicting a Bisharp switchin and clicking flamethrower. It's nice to make this mon's potential sweeps a bit less definite with the option of Mega-Metagross.

I have considered the historical evidence of the metagame after Aegislash's ban, although I have not specifically referred to that in my posts. Aegislash hard countered M-Gardevoir unless it packed Shadow ball, and even then Aegi could work around it. Once Aegislash was removed M-Gardevoir enjoyed packing taunt or CM instead of Shadow Ball; a trade off that had no downside and only positives because of Aegislash's removal. Metagross actually has a much harder time coming in vs Gardevoir, as it loses a fair chunk (>40% from a modest hyper voice) and can't do so repeatedly. I appreciate that you said "It's nice to make this mon's potential sweeps a bit less definite with the option of Mega-Metagross." because your point is very valid - while Metagross doesn't handle Gardevoir with ease, it handles it to an extent that makes it much nicer to deal with. Although I agree with that point, I don't believe that Metagross' detrimental effects on the metagame are worth keeping in order to prevent potential detrimental effects that (in my opinion) represent the lesser of two evils. And the argument for fairy domination would probably be more relevant if this were a suspect test on Scizorite, because Metagross is more of an overall beast that just so happens to do well against fairies.

 

[Honus]

I have considered the historical evidence of the metagame after Aegislash's ban, although I have not specifically referred to that in my posts. Aegislash hard countered M-Gardevoir unless it packed Shadow ball, and even then Aegi could work around it. Once Aegislash was removed M-Gardevoir enjoyed packing taunt or CM instead of Shadow Ball; a trade off that had no downside and only positives because of Aegislash's removal. Metagross actually has a much harder time coming in vs Gardevoir, as it loses a fair chunk (>40% from a modest hyper voice) and can't do so repeatedly. I appreciate that you said "It's nice to make this mon's potential sweeps a bit less definite with the option of Mega-Metagross." because your point is very valid - while Metagross doesn't handle Gardevoir with ease, it handles it to an extent that makes it much nicer to deal with. Although I agree with that point, I don't believe that Metagross' detrimental effects on the metagame are worth keeping in order to prevent potential detrimental effects that (in my opinion) represent the lesser of two evils. And the argument for fairy domination would probably be more relevant if this were a suspect test on Scizorite.

Aegislash's presence prevents Gardevoir from spamming Hyper Voice with little to no cost. Even if it Shadow Balls into the Aegislash then it can potentially die to shadow sneak. Metagross's presence makes Gardevoir a less viable option and if it is already mega evolved, then that would mean Gardevoir gives the supposedly broken threat a free attack. A mega slot is even more valuable in ORAS and Metagross simply being present discourages Gardevoir use, despite the fact that Metagross can come in on it and win if it is mega evolved. Also that quote was referring to Clefable.

There is no argument for fairy domination just that Metagross's presence promotes metagame stability and it is not powerful enough that it should be banned

 

[Jarrod]

Aegislash's presence prevents Gardevoir from spamming Hyper Voice with little to no cost. Even if it Shadow Balls into the Aegislash then it can potentially die to shadow sneak. Metagross's presence makes Gardevoir a less viable option and if it is already mega evolved, then that would mean Gardevoir gives the supposedly broken threat a free attack. A mega slot is even more valuable in ORAS and Metagross simply being present discourages Gardevoir use, despite the fact that Metagross can come in on it and win if it is mega evolved. Also that quote was referring to Clefable.

There is no argument for fairy domination just that Metagross's presence promotes metagame stability and it is not powerful enough that it should be banned

Your "historical evidence" point was clear in the first post; i.e. it is abundantly clear that Metagross' presence discourages Gardevoir's use and spamming of other considerable threats (M-Diancie and M-Altaria in particular). My posts have not been arguing this point; rather they were arguing that Mega Metagross is not the sole gatekeeper for the OU fairies (although he plays a role).

I didn't address Clefable because it has far more reliable answers than M-Gardevoir and is much easier to prepare for due to its lack of immediate power.

Fairy domination was not your argument, but it is a recurring theme throughout this thread that I don't agree with, hence why I have addressed it.

However, I disagree with your final point; I believe Metagross is certainly powerful enough to be banned (this is a case of opinion and disagreement on this is the fundamental reason why there is a suspect test and not an insta-ban).

 

[Kyonshein]

Hello People ! ^^
Naturally I cannot vote because I have no required qualifications but I am anxious to express my opinion on the subject.
I find a little bit ridiculous to banish him(it) to believe that Smogon has something against the Pokémons steel.
Everybody remembers the banishment of Aegislash which had been extremely disputed because cause of it has all the meta has was upset in a dramatic way.
Personally my opinion and what Mega-Metagross has very too much of against to deserve a banishment. First of all, there are some good counters (Foul Play Mandibuzz, Slowbro, or, a not used mon, Jellicent and Celebi) can really destruct it. Here are some calcs:

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 396-468 (131.5 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, you can burn him, and the 2hko would be not a 2hko, or, even a 3hko (22,3% of 2hko). But killers are so much. First of all, Volcarona. Volcarona can really simply kill him, if he used Quiver Dance (If there isn't bpunch, Volcarona can use Quiver Dance, and his special move that I don't remember.), or Zard Y (or w-o-w fblitz Zard X).

Thank you for read ! And sorry for my bad English ! ^^

 

[eden]

To post or not to post that is the question. All Shakespeare jokes aside let's get to the heart of the matter. The Metagrossite suspect test,you all knew this was going to happen, so no point in crying about it. It is broken and similar to Greninja in that it has a lot of powerful,boosted coverage that can take out its checks very easily. Landorus-T checks assuming no Ice Punch, Ferrothorn checks without Hammer Arm,and so on and so forth. It even has a special movepool just large enough to take care of two of its more defensive checks in Mega Slowbro and Hippowdon, and it has enough bulk to take a Sucker Punch from Adamant LO Bisharp/EQ from Scarf Landorus-T. The last time we saw such a combination of bulk and power, we quick banned it to the the Ubers tier. I think the time is right for Metagrossnite to join Salamencite in Ubers to be honest. It is not only extremely restrictive at the team building stage,in the same way that Greninja was in the sense of having to carry multiple counters, but also during a game in the sense that no team can possibly cover EVERY possible viable variant of Mega Metagross. The most solid that I have come across is Mega Scizor but who is to say that Mega Metagross will not adapt to this by carrying HP:Fire? Even without Ice Punch it can break its best counter Landorus-T,assuming Stealth Rocks are on the field(defensive Landorus-T). In addition to its insane power it also bring an insane speed tier to the equation,and makes life very difficult for offensive teams and balance teams which rely on resistances to get their team members in to the fray. Opportunity cost is obviously a factor while team building but I'd go so far as to say, that you are at an inherent disadvantage if you are NOT using Mega Metagross.

Of course there are two sides to every coin. With the ban of Mega Metagross, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie and Fairy types in general become much harder to check.I predict that a ban for Mega Metagross will lead to a comeback of the classic late XY. balance teams,which I find to be just fine, especially seeing as how late XY was very close to being a balanced metagame. I also feel thats its banning whill lead to a return to top tier threats from XY such as MZardX and MPinsir again

I'm slightly on the fence, but will most probably be voting ban for Metagrossite.

tl;dr life is an inferior mega metagross, suspect test it, and possibly ban it, kthnxbai

 

[Kyonshein]

People vote ban because they want to play in a metagame in which "Threat X" does not exist. This was evidenced by the Aegislash ban, where the community could not agree on how broken it was. In the end, people voted ban because they wanted a different metagame. As has been stated before, the metagame is relatively balanced. I don't want to shake things up, and banning Mega Metagross would definitely shake the tier up. I can understand the counterargument, "we don't keep broken things to check other broken things", but that's not really what I'm saying. I'm saying that I enjoy the metagame as it is, and I don't want to change anything. The metagame is essentially balanced around Mega-Metagross, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Sableye, and occasionally Mega-Altaria.

And !

edited and reposted.

Right now, Megagross is the only thing keeping Mega Altaria from wreaking absolute havoc on the metagame and, more arguably, mega diancie. You could argue Scizor does the job but that is definitely much, much easier to deal with for teams with mega altaria than megagross is. Similarily, Mega Altaria is one of the few things that makes Mega Sableye scared to switch in (along with diancie, gardevoir, and specs sylveon) so that is also needed in this metagame. I think banning mega metagross will end up making the metagame less healthy in the long run since people are currently doing a very good job adapting around it and its flaws (no set up moves unless you get lucky with meteor mash, bad weaknesses, and four moveslot syndrome)

and yes, a true counter does exist in Mega Scizor, which is a top OU pokemon already and is very easy to keep alive with roost+its bulk and sets up on megagross for free.

Obviously Metagross is extremely strong and definitely a centralizing pokemon and top 3 mega but I think its actually healthy for the meta right now, unlike everything else that has been banned.

 

[1~54RRR]

I do not think that it should be banned. I am not saying that Mega Metagross can be easily countered. I am not saying that M-Metagross isn't over powered. I am saying that if we continue in this manner of banning pokemon continuosly, it would lead to most OU pokemon being carted off to other tiers. The number of pokemon that Metagross counter are numerous; basically all fairy types, and so many others. Without Mega Metagross's presence, those pokemon would become more overpowered. I'm sure the OU council takes this into account when they run these tests, but I don't think that these rapid suspect tests that lead to bans continue.

 

[FrocoTerra]

People vote ban because they want to play in a metagame in which "Threat X" does not exist. This was evidenced by the Aegislash ban, where the community could not agree on how broken it was. In the end, people voted ban because they wanted a different metagame. As has been stated before, the metagame is relatively balanced. I don't want to shake things up, and banning Mega Metagross would definitely shake the tier up. I can understand the counterargument, "we don't keep broken things to check other broken things", but that's not really what I'm saying. I'm saying that I enjoy the metagame as it is, and I don't want to change anything. The metagame is essentially balanced around Mega-Metagross, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Sableye, and occasionally Mega-Altaria.

And !

Yes, but what if you want to run another Mega? Like Mega Scizor, as it's apparently the only true counter to MegaGross? If MegaGross holds the metagame back that much just by existing, and puts such a limit on teambuilding, using your own argments, I'd like to see it gone.

 

[FrocoTerra]

I do not think that it should be banned. I am not saying that Mega Metagross can be easily countered. I am not saying that M-Metagross isn't over powered. I am saying that if we continue in this manner of banning pokemon continuosly, it would lead to most OU pokemon being carted off to other tiers. The number of pokemon that Metagross counter are numerous; basically all fairy types, and so many others. Without Mega Metagross's presence, those pokemon would become more overpowered. I'm sure the OU council takes this into account when they run these tests, but I don't think that these rapid suspect tests that lead to bans continue.

Please read the posting rules. If MegaGross being banned means that Mega Gardevoir will undoubtedly become the best Pokemon in OU since Mega Kangaskhan, that has no influence on whether we ban it or not. Please note, I'm not saying Gardevoir will be unstoppable, it's just an example. Also, what does it matter if Pokemon in OU are constantly bannned? It's voted by a 60% majority iirc of the best OU players who have spent weeks considering whether the thing in question is ban-worthy. If those people think it's ban worthy, it will have nothing to do with whether or not the tier will change, absolutely nothing

 

[BravelyDefault]

Every time a suspect test pops up I automatically asume the mon in question will be banned and a lot of the community does so. What is even the point of a suspect test other than announce a month before that X mon is getting banned lol

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Every time a suspect test pops up I automatically asume the mon in question will be banned and a lot of the community does so. What is even the point of a suspect test other than announce a month before that X mon is getting banned lol

Tell that to Excadrill in BW and Deo in XY. . . That's not how this works, it's to get discussion going about what is currently over running the tier.
At least supply some substance in your post man. . .

I'll post my thoughts on MegaGross when I get home.

EDIT: Kyonshein Using broken beats broken as an argument is not going to help you. If those fairies prove to be a problem, we'll get around to them, but megagross keeping them in check won't save him.

 

[Kyonshein]

Well let us clarify things once and for all. YES, Méga-Métagross is very powerful / YES he is fast / YES he is hard to counter. We already know him(it). But the concern(marigold) it is because without him Meta current will be completely made(be completely done for). Some pokémons, in particular of the type Fairy, will become far too powerful and free. As Mega-Altaria who can fister three quarters of the meta to him alone without Méga-Métagross.

 

[Sochlo]

Well let us clarify things once and for all. YES, Méga-Métagross is very powerful / YES he is fast / YES he is hard to counter. We already know him(it). But the concern(marigold) it is because without him Meta current will be completely made(be completely done for). Some pokémons, in particular of the type Fairy, will become far too powerful and free. As Mega-Altaria who can fister three quarters of the meta to him alone without Méga-Métagross.

That rides a lot on speculation. Fairies weren't too powerful before Megagross existed, what makes them potebtially overpowered now? It's not like OU is lacking steel types or anything. Not that it matters, this is a very slippery slope argument that I can't get behind. If Diancie or smth proves to be unhealthy with Megagross gone (I'm not saying Megagross will be banned) then we'll just suspect Diancie.

I don't believe in a necessary evil for these things, if Megagross is deemed unhealthy then we shouldn't keep it, simple as that.


As for my opinion, I have insufficient experience with Metagross so as to make a strong argument for either side. So far I feel like Metagross itself is perfectly manageable in battle but it feels like the metagame isn't going anywhere with this thing in the tier so I'm really undecided. Looking forward to playing the suspect ladder.

 

[Kyonshein]

That rides a lot on speculation. Fairies weren't too powerful before Megagross existed, what makes them potebtially overpowered now? It's not like OU is lacking steel types or anything. Not that it matters, this is a very slippery slope argument that I can't get behind. If Diancie or smth proves to be unhealthy with Megagross gone (I'm not saying Megagross will be banned) then we'll just suspect Diancie.

I don't believe in a necessary evil for these things, if Megagross is deemed unhealthy then we shouldn't keep it, simple as that.


As for my opinion, I have insufficient experience with Metagross so as to make a strong argument for either side. So far I feel like Metagross itself is perfectly manageable in battle but it feels like the metagame isn't going anywhere with this thing in the tier so I'm really undecided. Looking forward to playing the suspect ladder.

This is a problem! As soon as a pokémon is banished we realize after cause of the same banishment of others has become completely torn and of the blow we banish them in their turn. As for Aegislash, when he was banished we realized that Méga-mawille was too strong without Aegislash to counter him ^^

 

[BravelyDefault]

Tell that to Excadrill in BW and Deo in XY. . . That's not how this works, it's to get discussion going about what is currently over running the tier.
At least supply some substance in your post man. . .

You actually proved my point since those two were made Ubers.