that was just a retarted team with 6 offensive mons and it wasn't even good just posted it to show hp fire cress n_n
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Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition
- Thread starter Molk
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ah k
u also completely glossed over my biggest point, that being the one about durant having huge trouble setting up.
i wouldnt be opposed to dropping moltres down to A+ at this point but i still want a non-oh but moltres can't either blah blah blah response to the setup question i proposed ;o
o right that could be a problem sometimes but my point was durant is a scary guys that usually sets up on things he scares out. Honestly i'd be ok with durant for A+ if moltres drops because i think they have the same amount of viability in the way that they both change the way people team build due to the raw power of both
Durant isn't nearly as meta-defining as Moltes. Moltres can destroy like most of the tier with its STABs alone (LO Fire Blast and Hurricane) while Durant has to run like 5 coverage moves. The things that can "counter" Moltres either get wrecked by HP Grass or are easy to wear down and have no reliable recovery outside of Rest. Moltres has a reliable move to use in Flamethrower if it doesn't want to risk a miss (which is actually a pretty big deal). It actually has decent bulk and reliable recovery in Roost. Its Choice Scarf set puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams and can wear down most of its checks/counters with U-turn. It doesn't need to set up. While its weakness to Stealth Rock sucks, I just don't think Durant is on the same level at all to Moltres. I mean, can anyone else honestly say that Durant defines the meta? I'm not saying it's bad; on the contrary, Durant is a pretty good Pokemon, but nominating it to S rank is, imo, the same as claiming it to be the best Pokemon in RU. And I believe without a doubt that it isn't the best.
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 310-366 (71.5 - 84.5%)
16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 145-172 (56.4 - 66.9%)
Alomomola:fair enough; SpD loses.
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 368-434 (101.9 - 120.2%)
Scarf gets mauled by superpower, too.
+2 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 330-390 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 118-141 (45.9 - 54.8%) -
set up on it and take it out.
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 160 HP / 4 Def Fletchinder: 277-327 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 123-145 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 162-192 (51.9 - 61.5%)
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 102-120 (39.6 - 46.6%)
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 283-334 (79.9 - 94.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Druddigon: 282-333 (78.7 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Moltres: 165-195 (43 - 50.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 249-293 (76.8 - 90.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or just set up HC on escav since
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 162-191 (63 - 74.3%)
Keep in mind that LO is way more deadly and beats all of these mons with ease, potentially even alomomola (with sr for tres tho). Durant would be meta-defining if it was used more.
froggyboy said:
Yes
Edit: btw all above calcs are the onsite set so yes, durant is a monster even with a solid, set movepool.
at least some one understads where i'm coming from, and to HypnoEmpire a lot of mons that take moltres stabs can eat up hp grass like lanturn regirock mola and so on moltres is also pretty slow without scarf
Liking your post was kinda circlejerky but i did it anyways
To expand, yea tres is slow, more importantly it can't boost so stuff that walls it, walls it
Any time you complain about Durant's inaccuracy moltres' stabs say hello (never seen LO flamethrower in my life so yea, scarf uses it only alongside Fblast)
fuck i forgot it was quad rocks weak. I didn't even factor that into the head to head comparison and Durant STILL came out on top haha, what does that tell you
It tells me... that Durant is a glass cannon still on the special defensive side. There are still plenty of mons still capable of one shotting the Durant on set up due to that garbage Special Defense and we already acknowledged the Rock Weakness of Moltres and the lower speed. However, we also referred to the fact that Moltres has far more survivability than Durant (With a Spinner, it can survive much longer), with only three weaknesses (Rocks (Doom), Water, and Electric). We also acknowledged that Durant still needs to get that +1 to do any of the damage calculated (And that +2 I see on Mega Steelix). This makes it open to any attack that can either severely damage it or knock it out before it can attack. Also, as previously stated about Moltres (HypnoEmpire remarked on this), it has recovery in Roost, whereas Durant has no recovery. As for HP Grass, he did not say that ALL the Pokemon would get knocked out by it, he said that Moltres can actually whittle them down if they survive. Moltres defines the meta because it can maintain its presence throughout the match due to its durability. Pressure also factors into what it can do by limiting how many times your opponent can use a move. Durant hits like a truck, I admit that, but with Stealth Rocks and a requirement for coverage (A coverage that is not always used according to atomicllama), Durant has no way to maintain its presence in the battle even if it's switched out. When it comes to survivability vs frail damage, I'd go for the survivability.
Once again, like everyone else said, Durant is a fantastic Pokemon boasting wallbreaking potential, but does not really cut the S-rank tiering because of its frailty and lack of recovery (Moltres has Roost, Cress can run Moonlight, and Pangoro now has that infamous Drain Punch~)
And yes, I'm not referring to the accuracy problem at all for now.
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I never said those Pokemon were counters, I said they were checks. A check is something that can win 1v1, and all the Pokemon I listed can do that. Rhyperior wins 1v1, most Emboars are scarf today so that wins too, Alomomola can stall out Durant or burn it with Scald, and its common spread is 120 HP, 136 Def, and 252 SpD, Fletchinder isn't really irrelevant, it is A rank and used often as a revenge killer, Mega Steelix wins 1v1 if rocks are up, Moltres if scarf outspeeds and OHKOs, Druddigon wins 1v1and is broken so it beats everything, Escavalier also wins 1v1.
Note what a check and what a counter is.
Durant has no recovery, garbage special defense, poor offensive STAB, and relies heavily on its coverage moves, while Moltres has fantastic STAB, reliable recovery, decent bulk all around, the only thing really holding it down is its rock weakness, especially with one of the best Defoggers gone, and its low accuracy moves(which can be patched by Flamethrower and Air Slash if you are tired of missing). But overall, Moltres is better than Durant, and is MUCH more meta defining than Durant.
I am not denying Durant is a powerhouse, I love the wannabe NBA star, but it really needs a boosting move to beat some of the best walls in the metagame right now and it can be unreliable at times. However, it is still a great Pokemon, and I would even say rise it to A+, but no higher unless a tier shift goes its way, like one of its best checks leaves and/or a new Pokemon it can destroy comes down from UU.
And I guess if you want more checks(albeit, less high ranked), here they are
Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Spiritomb, Amoongus, Granbull, Qwilfish, Weezing, Pelipper, Poliwrath, Delphox, Jolteon, Stunfisk(<3), Golbat, Gastrodon, and Tangrowth.
Note what a check and what a counter is.
Durant has no recovery, garbage special defense, poor offensive STAB, and relies heavily on its coverage moves, while Moltres has fantastic STAB, reliable recovery, decent bulk all around, the only thing really holding it down is its rock weakness, especially with one of the best Defoggers gone, and its low accuracy moves(which can be patched by Flamethrower and Air Slash if you are tired of missing). But overall, Moltres is better than Durant, and is MUCH more meta defining than Durant.
I am not denying Durant is a powerhouse, I love the wannabe NBA star, but it really needs a boosting move to beat some of the best walls in the metagame right now and it can be unreliable at times. However, it is still a great Pokemon, and I would even say rise it to A+, but no higher unless a tier shift goes its way, like one of its best checks leaves and/or a new Pokemon it can destroy comes down from UU.
And I guess if you want more checks(albeit, less high ranked), here they are
Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Spiritomb, Amoongus, Granbull, Qwilfish, Weezing, Pelipper, Poliwrath, Delphox, Jolteon, Stunfisk(<3), Golbat, Gastrodon, and Tangrowth.
Spinners are hardly usable to get spins due to all the usable ghost and also all the spinners are pretty slow, also the most viable set scarfed moltres can't run roost
There are only 3 ghost types from S rank to B- Rank, and they are Doublade, Spiritomb and Mega Banette. Not really a whole lot of usable ghosts...
Plus the most common spinner atm is Hitmonlee, hardly a pretty slow spinner.
87 isn't fast and tomb walls it, doublade can wall most spinners
The only spinner Doublade really walls is hitmontop, Hitmonlee and Sandslash have Knock Off.
And tomb can do nothing back, as CM sets are RestTalk and dont carry Will-O.
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Hitmonlee can OHKO Doublade with the combination of knock off + sucker punch on the switch (this is a thing, you dont always need mach punch), sandslash can knock off and eq doublade, and hitmontop has foresight to be able to spin on doublade or hit it with a CC.
Doublade does not wall every spinner.
I do hate to detract from this wonderful discussion that's taking up more than two pages already that has one point addressed every post rather than all at once, but a tier shift just happened so are other ranking changes going to be discussed? It seems rather a waste to spend all this time on one single Pokémon regardless of if it's S-rank material or not.
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Your lack of knowledge is a crime. your arrogance doesn't help. I have anger inside of me and i have to be honest, i really don't know how to get it out. LURK MOAR!
How you rate a check is how very fucked you are if the rest of your team loses to the Pokemon. If you have a Rhyperior and 5 mons that lose to durant, GG. In general, if all you can do is win 1v1 and lose if it's boosted, that's pretty crap. If you have no other check, congrats, you just won a deluxe SACRIFICE as part of our customer pwnage package, an offer made available on each successive Durant switch-in. A good check can switch in and take 1 hit or win if the foe boosted; if you have 5 pokemon that lose to durant and 1 of these, you can maybe win. Now i get that you might have multiple 1v1 checks, but that still means durant got a kill so D:
froggyboy said:
Almost none of those are actual checks let alone counters. those that are checks for the most part have questionable viability (Hp fire grasses, weezing and wrath, gastro)
What made you think I was being arrogant? I said 'Note what a check and what a counter is' isn't being arrogant, it is a general statement.
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Isn't this winning 1v1?
Most of them win 1v1, thus checking Durant.
That's the shitass definition of check, yes (if you read Mattl's article just forget what you read, it was the worst)
To clarify: that is the bottom level of check. If you have only that kind of check and only 1 of it, you will lose pretty much guaranteed.
Edit:
lighthouses
That's a baseline, the bare minimum needed to check another mon. Good checks can either switch in, outspeed and kill, or some combination of both. If all you have is that kind of check and it switches in on something else, that something else is sacrificed or you lose, which is bad. Some HO teams can afford that, but that doesn't make the check any better, it just means you can afford sacs due to playstyle.
Because of how minimal and bad at its job such a check is, it's not even really mentioned as such in many cases and most top players don't think of it when they talk about checks.
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Winning 1v1 means you are put on a situation where mon A is already in versus mon B, nothing guarantees you can switch in, take a neutral hit/+1 hit, then knock mon B out, which is what a check would do.
Why don't we move on to some constructive conversation? The people arguing for durant to not be moved up are using invalid arguments, and the people who want durant moved up are blowing Durants success in the current meta out of proportion. Durant is a top tier mon but personally I don't see it being s ranked atm. Another thing I'll add that makes durant similar to moltres, besides the accuracy issues, is that you lose nothing from putting it on offensive teams. Moltres and Durant are both staples on offense right now, but there definitely needs to be more time before any decisions are made about its rank.
Also I personally think mola should be moved down a bit. With offense becoming more prominent, mola is set up bait more so than before. Plenty of dangerous things such as coba, virizion, gatr, panda, etc. take advantage of the blob. It's obviously still a staple on stall, but it's use in balance is slowly starting to diminish.
Also I personally think mola should be moved down a bit. With offense becoming more prominent, mola is set up bait more so than before. Plenty of dangerous things such as coba, virizion, gatr, panda, etc. take advantage of the blob. It's obviously still a staple on stall, but it's use in balance is slowly starting to diminish.
I propose that Liepard moves up from C to C+ or even B- at the most. With the introduction to Move Tutors, Liepard has even more versatility outside of Prankster support. With access to Gunk Shot, a Sash Hone Claws Liepard can take on major Fairy types in the tier, like BD Slurpuff, using the sash to get an Unburden boost. Liepard also gains access to Knock Off and Sucker Punch for priority, allowing it to dent and remove items from potential switch ins. Play Rough, an egg move, also benefits from the Hone Claws boost and deals with some threats like Goro, who lacks Priority and is 4x weak to Fairy
Edit: Meant B-, not B
Edit: Meant B-, not B
Wanted to address this point as I think its pretty misleading to suggest that HP Fire Cresselia is running it exclusively for Durant, as HP Fire Cresselia (I believe it was OO on its analysis) also gives it a way to dent Doublade and Escavalier (I honestly think Escavalier is the culprit here, but I can't be sure as I'm not the user of that team).
Next, as stated by many people, Durant doesn't actually get that many chances to set up, given its status as a glass cannon, which, at least imo is why the Choice Scarf set is better, but that also has major flaws (the fact that none of its moves have over 80% accuracy is a turn off, at least Scarf Moltres has Flamethrower to fall back on, I pretty much only end up using U-turn and Flamethrower when using Scarf tres), such as being easier to wall due to Choice lock and also its STABs aren't nearly as spammable as Fire or Flying type moves.
As I've already stated (and pretty much everyone barring two people in this thread have agreed) Durant should definitely move up, but not to S rank. This comparison to Moltres is getting pretty dumb tbh, just because both Pokemon hit hard doesn't mean they are even remotely similar, thats like comparing Alomomola to Cresselia because they both have good defenses. First off, Life Orb Moltres hits slightly harder than Life Orb Durant with their STAB moves, Durant is really let down by the fact that its STAB moves only have 80 Base Power, so its X-Scissor, even with the 1.5 boost from Hustle, is hitting as hard as a Hustle-less Megahorn off of a base 109 Attack (the difference in Power between Moltres and Durant is barely noticeable, but I more so wanted to demonstrate that move BP is as big of a factor as Hustle or a High Attack stat). Secondly, Moltres has much better defenses (and both have pretty neat defensive typing o.o), alongside reliable recovery, which not only makes it much harder to wear Moltres down, but also allows Moltres to perform a more diverse set of rolls, one of its best sets is the underutilized Sub-Roost Toxic Moltres, which puts a lot of strain on defensive teams. Next, while Moltres and Durant have a similarly limited pool of counters, Moltres's counters are both easier to deal with and much less viable in the current meta game (with 2ish exceptions). Lanturn, Regirock, Slowking, and Cresselia are the best switch-ins in the tier to Moltres. Lanturn and Regirock are both pretty uncommon (not that they aren't good) and pretty easy to wear down given their lack of reliable recovery, and susceptibility to hazards (I realize this works both ways but I assume a Moltres team will be more committed to keeping hazards off the field). Cresselia and Slowking (more so Slowking) can be U-turned on into a Pursuit trapper which makes them much shakier checks to Moltres than you would like them to be. Durant's top counters are Alomomola (neither of the above problems), Emboar (Choice Scarf or Fat Pig), Quagsire, and Moltres (Sub Roost, Choice Scarf I guess watch out for Rock Slide though, but Rock Slide is p shitty on Durant imo). These Pokemon fit on every play-style from full-stall to offense (same can't be said for Moltres's counters, which are much easier to fit onto stall / balance than offense) and are harder to wear down than Moltres's counters barring Emboar (also none are Pursuit trappable).
I agree with tehy that froggyboy was using the weakest definition of a check (and that some of the Pokemon he listed weren't necessarily even that) but most were still technically "checks". And some of the calcs you were using were pretty bad, for example offensive Mega Steelix does much better against Durant than the version you posted, and more defensive variants are likely to carry roar, so Durant won't be getting to +2.
To clarify for everyone, a check is a Pokemon that can switch into at least one move that a Pokemon has and kill it before it is killed in return (barring hax) while a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into any move a Pokemon has and kill it before it is killed in return.
Durant should move to A+, Moltres is a better, more meta game defining Pokemon than Durant and will probably be staying in S rank, as it deserves to be.
This.
I'd like to nominate Aurorus for C/C+. It is a very underrated pokemon at the moment, that can clean up nicely with a Rock Polish boost under it's belt and near-perfect coverage in the now accessible Refrigerate-boosted Hyper Voice and Earth Power (misses only out on Bronzong). At +2 and with a speed-boosting nature it outspeeds everything relevant in the metagame, including Scarf Moltres. Although it has undoubtedly the worst typing in the whole game, it can still setup on threats like Fletchinder or Choice Specs Meloetta locked into the wrong move thanks to handy resists and above-average bulk.
While it still requires a lot of support in disposing troublesome Pokemon like Bronzong and Hitmonlee and getting rid of hazards, it is still a force to be reckoned with and won't fail to disappoint, if played and supported correctly.
While it still requires a lot of support in disposing troublesome Pokemon like Bronzong and Hitmonlee and getting rid of hazards, it is still a force to be reckoned with and won't fail to disappoint, if played and supported correctly.
I agree with Aurorus moving up to C+. It's a pretty decent cleaner that can set up on a surprising amount of things due to its sheer raw bulk (scarf moltres, jolteon, fletchinder, anything without a super-effective STAB move kinda) and hits surprisingly hard factoring in Life Orb thanks to refrigerate hyper voice :]
It also benefits from the 3 suspects gone because it means steel-types (mainly registeel and zonger) aren't required on /every/ team anymore, and stuff like Doublade and Cobalion die to Earth Power with just a bit of prior damage anyway.
It also benefits from the 3 suspects gone because it means steel-types (mainly registeel and zonger) aren't required on /every/ team anymore, and stuff like Doublade and Cobalion die to Earth Power with just a bit of prior damage anyway.
Tbh i'm fine with A+ durant, i personally find it a bit more threatening but tbf my special wall is lickilicky
Well time to nom mons I use
I saw mistress remilia advocating Licki to c/c+, i know there's a lotta competition with audino and aromatisse but its walling of tres (about as hard as a wishmon can, it can get worn down eventually too) and ability to knock off its LO and wishpass to stuff on it afterwards is really really nice. I suck at ranks but it needs ranking. (Knock and dtail are both good on it)
Drapion for A or A+, i thought quaggy would murder its stallbreaking rektage but it dropped to NU and SD drap is still such a great stallbreaker and nice versus balance, o.k vs. offense. I will try out SD+tspikes when i get home (in about a week is how that always goes for me, but it is on my backburner) but it sounds baller too. I smile so much from it, and i only smile when i have a big advantage in the battle so yea.
Mlix also for a/a+, curse+rest is a defensive mon and stallbrakes faces in simultaneously(beats many bulky boosters and can force a kill or 2 v. offense)!! Sr is a great defensive pivot (roar sux on it) that can almost always land some stone cold Tox. Im sorry tres did u just get toxxed step into my licki's office and get walled now. Really toxxing tres is nice for any defensive team, it hits hard and roosts which is no fun for stall, and you can tox regenerators which is the start of the twelve-step program of killing them.
Aurorus looks cool, good v defense and can sweep offense or set rocks. i need to calc shit but it sounds scary.
Well time to nom mons I use
I saw mistress remilia advocating Licki to c/c+, i know there's a lotta competition with audino and aromatisse but its walling of tres (about as hard as a wishmon can, it can get worn down eventually too) and ability to knock off its LO and wishpass to stuff on it afterwards is really really nice. I suck at ranks but it needs ranking. (Knock and dtail are both good on it)
Drapion for A or A+, i thought quaggy would murder its stallbreaking rektage but it dropped to NU and SD drap is still such a great stallbreaker and nice versus balance, o.k vs. offense. I will try out SD+tspikes when i get home (in about a week is how that always goes for me, but it is on my backburner) but it sounds baller too. I smile so much from it, and i only smile when i have a big advantage in the battle so yea.
Mlix also for a/a+, curse+rest is a defensive mon and stallbrakes faces in simultaneously(beats many bulky boosters and can force a kill or 2 v. offense)!! Sr is a great defensive pivot (roar sux on it) that can almost always land some stone cold Tox. Im sorry tres did u just get toxxed step into my licki's office and get walled now. Really toxxing tres is nice for any defensive team, it hits hard and roosts which is no fun for stall, and you can tox regenerators which is the start of the twelve-step program of killing them.
Aurorus looks cool, good v defense and can sweep offense or set rocks. i need to calc shit but it sounds scary.
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