np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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silver97

I agree with the first part of your post, but not with the second part. Although it's true that offense usually cannot switch into it, offense is not supposed to be able to do that. Offense lacks switch-ins for the majority of the meta, which is why it's so important to keep the momentum. If an offensive team cannot switch into Mega Metagross than that is not a weird thing at all and surely no reason to ban it.
 
Yes he can 2hko everything, but only with perfect prediction. Things like Rotom-w, Ferro (just 2 examples of the top of my head, there are many more) etc can all be 2hkoed on the switch, but only if predicted correctly.

actually no, with rocks up, rotom-w gets ko'd by meteor mash + zen if he gets attack boost on switch. so even without prediction he gets to get KO's he wouldn't otherwise get without even predicting, if he's lucky. and don't compare 20% chance to 6% chance of crit plz. i didn't calc for ferro but it's probably the same or a similar case.

If they switch into another move Meta cant 2hko anymore and is forced out/has more trouble dealing with them. This problem is enhanced by the fact that Metagross has so many possible switch ins, bulky waters, bulky steels, Lando-T, Garchomp, Gliscor, Mandibuzz there are so many mons out there that can switch into 3 of his moves without getting 2hkoed that you will usually find 2 or even 3 possible switch ins to Metagross on a well built team. Yes there is some risk involved here, and yes the risk is bigger for player facing Mega Gross but that can be said for most mons.

but that's the thing, he doesn't have so many switch ins. first of all, bulky waters? wear slowbro down a little bit and Grass knot (and he's probably the ideal bulky water to be switching in on him). bulky steels, like who? heatran who loses to EQ? or ferro who loses to hammer arm? knock off does shit, power whip does shit, gyro ball does shit. leech seed will only help you if you're healthy coming in but that's not stopping him from getting damage and leaving and preventing ferro from being a reliable switch-in. then there's scizor, the only truly solid of the bulky steels but his ideal set to counter is mega so there goes a mega slot. lando-t gets easily worn down by rocks and MM, not to mention he gets outsped (unless scarf in which case not a switch-in) and there's always u-turn games. i don't know the calc for the defensive dragon tail toxic chomp i've been seeing but man is that niche. gliscor's only set that truly wants to take hits from him is a physically defensive one and mandibuzz is a momentum-draining turd (but that's just a matter of opinion).

Another issue related to that is his coverage. Meteormash, while powerful, has awful coverage and isnt realy spammable. Most of the time Zen Headbut is the best option to spam but thats resisted by many things as well. And if you go for that and a resist, like some steeltype comes in, you will miss out on the 2hko in many cases.

steel, btw, does not have awful coverage. it's an incredibly neutral-hitting typing which is a good thing. water is the same way as steel. great defensive type, pretty damn good offensive type due to lack of resists.


His bulk is certainly amazing for an offensive thread but with so many things running ground/fire moves for coverage alot of things have SE moves to heavily damage him. This adds to the prediction problem mentioned earlier. Its not even about the switch in, if you got your Meta in against Clef against a team with Rotom-w and Heatran, what move do you pick? Go for Mash and the other two can come in for free. Go for Zen and Heatran can come in and force you out or Clef stays in and uses Flamethrower (not quite sure but doesnt full def Clefable even live one meteor mash?). Metas bulk certainly helps to compensate that to an degree but from my experience its rare for him coming in more than 2 or 3 times until he is worn down to the point where he cant do much any more. At least against non stall teams.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 114-136 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

i'd say you pick zen because then you prevent rotom from coming in, still pretty much a 2hko on the mon that doesn't even really threaten you in front of you, and if tran comes in you hammer arm.

also
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
adamant kos 100% lol (i know it's not a set but still)


The number of all set counters is realy small but the number of checks that can switch into 2 or more of his attacks without beeing 2hkoed is huge.

huge? uhhh i'm not so sure that's true. i could be wrong. anyone care to list those that can safely switch in on 2 or more of his attacks?

And the people mentioning how +1 from mash can win games should also mention how missing with all those 90% can lose you games. Especially considering that Mash isnt a good move to spam with so many things resisting it.

except he is 2 times more likely to win than to lose in that circumstance. 20% vs 10%. that's in megagross's favor every time.
 
silver97

I agree with the first part of your post, but not with the second part. Although it's true that offense usually cannot switch into it, offense is not supposed to be able to do that. Offense lacks switch-ins for the majority of the meta, which is why it's so important to keep the momentum. If an offensive team cannot switch into Mega Metagross than that is not a weird thing at all and surely no reason to ban it.
yeah i said that, you should be able to apply enough pressure on it in order to not give it free kill, but it is so terribly difficult to keep the pressure up on this things because of that amazing combination of stats it has. For example is quite easy for it to switch-in on latios or some other resisted attacks, like for example a rock move from ttar and most pokemon don't have the ability to threaten it enough.
 
I think one question worth asking is if banning M-Meta eliminates any perceived centralization while also preventing something from taking its place. Is eliminating one "centralizing" threat worth it when something is ready and waiting to supplant it? I realize that it's bad practice allowing subsequent changes to impact decision making when considering the fate of Metagrossite, but I still believe it's important to look at the game as a whole when considering all the options. One thing that I've personally noticed is that team comps and playstyles haven't varied much at all since the suspect ladder was implemented. I'm still seeing most of the same mons except for a noticeable rise in M-Diancie and Scizor (duh). It's too early to make any judgments yet but so far it doesn't seem like getting rid of Metagrossite is providing any extra "breathing room" in the game.

Another thing that I've noticed / wanted to mention was that I think it's extremely important that Smogon remains as impartial as possible when conducting suspect tests. Everyone has their own personal opinion, which is absolutely fine, but if we really want to evaluate a situation as objectively as possible it's imperative that we don't let our own personal agenda bleed into the actual methodology. Obviously opinions are essential to later stages of the test, such as voting, but many preliminary posts and statements provided by staff members seem biased and written intentionally to sway people from the get-go. People are impressionable and have a mild tendency to blindly follow what experienced posters say on this site (granted, the reason that they're staff members to begin with is usually because they post intelligently), so I think it's important we let people establish their OWN opinions from their OWN experience instead of just "taking peoples' word for it".
 
Metagross needs to run either EQ or Hammer Arm because otherwise it is trapped and killed by Scarf Magnezone.

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it does, Scarf Magnezone is obviously not an issue.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Speaking of trapping, Wobbuffet is a counter to Metagross as it is 3HKOed by Meteor Mash but Counter OHKOs back, Metagross cannot escape, and if it selects another move Wobb can encore and allow you to get in more than free.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 217-256 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm just thinking outside the box in terms of trapping, since Gross is susceptible to all forms of it. Unfortunately even Choice Band Dugtrio (a... unique... set to say the least) cannot OHKO with EQ.

EDIT: Yay more things.

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 238-280 (69.1 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Camerupt: 237-280 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 320-378 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 258-304 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Without EQ it doesn't OHKO without rocks.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 204-241 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 333-395 (110.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 194-230 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 135-160 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

of course Cress does shit back

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 378-446 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 348-410 (115.6 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 270-318 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 390-458 (129.5 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross in Rain: 317-374 (105.3 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 196-232 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Kingdra can set up its own rain, or counter if rain is already up.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 463-549 (153.8 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 231-273 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ice Punch, however, OHKOs.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross in Rain: 308-363 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ludicolo can also technically set up its own rain. Technically.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 190-224 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 256-303 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ice Punch

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 284-336 (92.2 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

I'm stopping there because I'm sure I'll mess up formatting somewhere. I tried to avoid things already brought up, hence why no Heatran, Charizard. I also avoid things that have literally zero use in OU, so I'm sure there are obscure checks/counters not listed.
 
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Metagross needs to run either EQ or Hammer Arm because otherwise it is trapped and killed by Scarf Magnezone.

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it does, Scarf Magnezone is obviously not an issue.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Speaking of trapping, Wobbuffet is a counter to Metagross as it is 3HKOed by Meteor Mash but Counter OHKOs back, Metagross cannot escape, and if it selects another move Wobb can encore and allow you to get in more than free.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 217-256 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm just thinking outside the box in terms of trapping, since Gross is susceptible to all forms of it. Unfortunately even Choice Band Dugtrio (a... unique... set to say the least) cannot OHKO with EQ.

It's not like any Metagross does not have Hammer Arm or Earthquake. That Thunderbolt calculation also uses Mega Metagross with a -SpD nature, which it never has. Wobuffet can trap Mega Metagross but it actually cannot switch if Stealth Rock is up, which it is most of the time. Metagross can also just use weaker attacks like Earthquake or Hammer Arm to bring it down to about 40% health and finish it off with Meteor Mash, so it's not really a great way of removing Metagross. The best way to trap it is Pursuit from a Pokemon like Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Bisharp.
 
It's not like any Metagross does not have Hammer Arm or Earthquake. That Thunderbolt calculation also uses Mega Metagross with a -SpD nature, which it never has. Wobuffet can trap Mega Metagross but it actually cannot switch if Stealth Rock is up, which it is most of the time. Metagross can also just use weaker attacks like Earthquake or Hammer Arm to bring it down to about 40% health and finish it off with Meteor Mash, so it's not really a great way of removing Metagross. The best way to trap it is Pursuit from a Pokemon like Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Bisharp.

Metagross almost always runs a Naive nature if it has Grass Knot, and it cannot use weaker attacks on Wobbuffet without being Encored into them.
 
Metagross needs to run either EQ or Hammer Arm because otherwise it is trapped and killed by Scarf Magnezone.

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it does, Scarf Magnezone is obviously not an issue.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 280-330 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Speaking of trapping, Wobbuffet is a counter to Metagross as it is 3HKOed by Meteor Mash but Counter OHKOs back, Metagross cannot escape, and if it selects another move Wobb can encore and allow you to get in more than free.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 217-256 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm just thinking outside the box in terms of trapping, since Gross is susceptible to all forms of it. Unfortunately even Choice Band Dugtrio (a... unique... set to say the least) cannot OHKO with EQ.
i think you'll hardly see a mega metagross lacking both EQ and hammer arm, so magnezone can be a check of course if it get weakened enough but can't just outright trapkill it. I actually don't see the point of using a subpar pokemon just in order to get rid of an opposing mon and not even having the certainty of killing it 100% of the times, but even after that you would basically be 5v5. Tbh this only makes more evident the unhealthiness of this thing for the meta
 
Metagross almost always runs a Naive nature if it has Grass Knot, and it cannot use weaker attacks on Wobbuffet without being Encored into them.

I'm pretty sure Hasty is more common because Metagross' typing is better specially defensive. As for Encore, being locked into Hammer Arm or Earthquake is annoying but at least not the end for Metagross. It does make it set up fodder for a lot of Pokemon though, so fair enough.
 
Hasty is not more common because giving Bisharp an opportunity to OHKO you is very bad

I mean Metagross does very poor against Bisharp anyway and losing like 95% of your health to a Sucker Punch is not exactly great either, as it makes Metagross easy to pick off with priority or just hazards. I suppose it's just preference.

Sorry for small posts, I hope it doesn't clutter the thread too much.
 
Which is why most people still run jolly because dropping your defenses is not needed when even with a - nature you are 2HKO'ing your benchmark walls anyway.

0- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 244-288 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

EDIT: The calculator is fucking stupid. However, this doesn't change the fact that it can very easily run jolly.
 
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0- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is not a slowbro set. It apparently has forgone an item (namely leftovers) and all special defense investment.

0- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is more realistic, but it still requires rocks. Without rocks, Slowbro survives and outheals you with Slack Off and Lefties, before burning you with scald and making Metagross cry.
 
This is not a slowbro set. It apparently has forgone an item (namely leftovers) and all special defense investment.

0- SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is more realistic, but it still requires rocks. Without rocks, Slowbro survives and outheals you with Slack Off and Lefties, before burning you with scald and making Metagross cry.

lol. I'm hoping this statement wasn't serious. Soft counters aren't proving anything to me. I'm not going to run the risk of dying over barely missing out on the 2HKO on Bro who might burn me if given the chance, which it won't since it has to slack off to stay around against megagross and thus doesn't have a chance to Scald. Also, you always assume rocks are up. That's like rule #1 of OU. So, the "without rocks" portion is hardly relevant. The point still remains that it does not need to lower its defenses if it runs Grass knot.
 
"omg i see too many fairies so let's keep a busted threat into the tier so that i can be lazy and use it as my fairy check and not look at all the other viable fairy checks"

No really, this is becoming incredible, what would the issue with banning Diancie be if it actually becomes broken with Metagross leaving? And also what the hell would you expect on a ladder without the most powerful steel type in OU, when said ladder has been up for like, 72 hours?? You people that already complain about Diancie are acting like the suspect ladder metagame is already stable, while most players' mindset when laddering at the moment is just "now it's time to spam the hell out of Diancie / Altaria / Clefable". It's obvious that these will have a spike in usage, people just want to abuse the stuff that got better. So it doesn't really matter if Diancie is "everywhere", the actual question is "is it actually not manageable in battle?".

I say it still is, its checks and counters are always the same and Metagross isn't even the best one, it's just the most splashable because it fits easily in teams even if it is a mega due to its combination of defensive and offensive utility. Also you're bitching about mons "having too much usage" when this doesn't really matter unless we're talking about an absurd prevalence (i.e. Mega Rayquaza in Ubers). This reminds me of people in some PS room saying "suspect lando T because it's everywhere" when in practice it's nowhere near as scary as many other threats.

EDIT @ below: Well actually we also ban things because we want a better metagame so the last paragraph is not entirely true. My point is that you can't think you know how a post-Metagross metagame really looks like after 72 hours of chaotic fairy spam on the suspect ladder.
 
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chaboi inflikted talkin some sense.

arguing that fairies will spam ou and that something else centralizing will take its place is a non-argument. to balance the meta is a process, one suspect at a time. if a suspect goes, we let it settle and stabilize, then we move on to other suspects if they're relevant.

if altaria or diancie or whatever becomes too good we suspect it. this is what happened with mawile after aegislash. we went through several bans in XY before it reached its most balanced, and by the end it was worth it imo. since oras we've only suspected 2 mons, now 3, and there's actually a popular argument of "centralization isn't bad, if this busted centralized threat leaves another will take its place therefore we should keep this one because i like this meta".

if another one takes its place and it's too much we deal with it. imo, diancie will be a cakewalk to deal with compared to metagross, but who knows. we can't predict the next meta so that's irrelevant. we're here to look at one thing: megagross. not the future meta that you think you can predict. not upcoming threats. megagross. he's too much.
 
"omg i see too many fairies so let's keep a busted threat into the tier so that i can be lazy and use it as my fairy check and not look at all the other viable fairy checks"

No really, this is becoming incredible, what would the issue with banning Diancie be if it actually becomes broken with Metagross leaving? And also what the hell would you expect on a ladder without the most powerful steel type in OU, when said ladder has been up for like, 72 hours?? You people that already complain about Diancie are acting like the suspect ladder metagame is already stable, while most players' mindset when laddering at the moment is just "now it's time to spam the hell out of Diancie / Altaria / Clefable". It's obvious that these will have a spike in usage, people just want to abuse the stuff that got better. So it doesn't really matter if Diancie is "everywhere", the actual question is "is it actually not manageable in battle?".

I say it still is, its checks and counters are always the same and Metagross isn't even the best one, it's just the most splashable because it fits easily in teams even if it is a mega due to its combination of defensive and offensive utility. Also you're bitching about mons "having too much usage" when this doesn't really matter unless we're talking about an absurd prevalence (i.e. Mega Rayquaza in Ubers). This reminds me of people in some PS room saying "suspect lando T because it's everywhere" when in practice it's nowhere near as scary as many other threats.

Diancie isn't the main issue that most people are raising questions about or have a problem with (though it is prominent).

The thing is the Meta-game remaining stable, we're sitting on a mountain top currently of powerful Pokemon in OU with the S-rank Pokemon at the very tip, should we get rid of one, the idea is that it spirals out of control and we go through another year of pointlessly banning stuff that checked/countered something else previously. Banning Megagross isn't the main concern, its rather how we're handling this.

And before I'm told "That's not an argument." I think it's valid to look at what's being used at the moment, Meta-gross isn't dominating the entire ladder as an unstoppable force or something you have to look into having on your own team. It's not "loss at match up" and it's most certainly not "if it carries X move I lose." People are treating Megagross like it can run everything at one time and that's what's concerning. Next thing you or I know, it's banned and now we have a long list of Pokemon to kick out of the tier before we address ACTUAL issues.

What I'm saying is that we have literally two stable meta-games:

The one with Mega-Metagross

The one without Mega-Metagross and several other Pokemon that follow

I'm all for keeping as many pokemon that are not causing actual issues in as possible and I have yet to see a game where M-Metagross 6-0'd a game because someone happened to have the right moveset that did not come from a Misprediction.

And before anyone angrily types, "But that's not how Smogon does it you fucking retard." I'm not even using the damn thing. I keep seeing all the S-rank Pokemon at literally it's own tier slightly above OU where all the power is focused, it's like taking shears to trim the tip of a sand castle, it's overkill and not getting us anywhere. On it's own merits, Megagross is powerful, but it's not overbearing and meta-game defining as Greninja, it doesn't require checks/counters from NU to take on, or plenty of other Pokemon that have been banned previously, it's just good. However as soon as one good Pokemon is kicked off, we now have to kick off several other Pokemon because they went from good to great due to Megagrosses absence. And at the end of the day, what changed between the ORAS meta-game and the XY meta-game should this happen, Sceptile got a mega-stone, Greninja was banned, and now Starmie is now back in OU. Literally, fuck all happened, not much changed because we banned everything before it all actually settled.

I guess the proper phrase is that People are tired of walking in a fucking circle.

I'm still for No Ban not because it's healthier for the Meta-game to keep him in, it's healthier for the Meta-game to change and adapt to the tools that were just thrown at us.

This suspect is honestly very reminiscent of Tyranitar from Gen 4 now that I think about it...
 
Diancie isn't the main issue that most people are raising questions about or have a problem with (though it is prominent).

The thing is the Meta-game remaining stable, we're sitting on a mountain top currently of powerful Pokemon in OU with the S-rank Pokemon at the very tip, should we get rid of one, the idea is that it spirals out of control and we go through another year of pointlessly banning stuff that checked/countered something else previously. Banning Megagross isn't the main concern, its rather how we're handling this.

And before I'm told "That's not an argument." I think it's valid to look at what's being used at the moment, Meta-gross isn't dominating the entire ladder as an unstoppable force or something you have to look into having on your own team. It's not "loss at match up" and it's most certainly not "if it carries X move I lose." People are treating Megagross like it can run everything at one time and that's what's concerning. Next thing you or I know, it's banned and now we have a long list of Pokemon to kick out of the tier before we address ACTUAL issues.

What I'm saying is that we have literally two stable meta-games:

The one with Mega-Metagross

The one without Mega-Metagross and several other Pokemon that follow

I'm all for keeping as many pokemon that are not causing actual issues in as possible and I have yet to see a game where M-Metagross 6-0'd a game because someone happened to have the right moveset that did not come from a Misprediction.

And before anyone angrily types, "But that's not how Smogon does it you fucking retard." I'm not even using the damn thing. I keep seeing all the S-rank Pokemon at literally it's own tier slightly above OU where all the power is focused, it's like taking shears to trim the tip of a sand castle, it's overkill and not getting us anywhere. On it's own merits, Megagross is powerful, but it's not overbearing and meta-game defining as Greninja, it doesn't require checks/counters from NU to take on, or plenty of other Pokemon that have been banned previously, it's just good. However as soon as one good Pokemon is kicked off, we now have to kick off several other Pokemon because they went from good to great due to Megagrosses absence. And at the end of the day, what changed between the ORAS meta-game and the XY meta-game should this happen, Sceptile got a mega-stone, Greninja was banned, and now Starmie is now back in OU. Literally, fuck all happened, not much changed because we banned everything before it all actually settled.

I guess the proper phrase is that People are tired of walking in a fucking circle.

I'm still for No Ban not because it's healthier for the Meta-game to keep him in, it's healthier for the Meta-game to change and adapt to the tools that were just thrown at us.

This suspect is honestly very reminiscent of Tyranitar from Gen 4 now that I think about it...
man i think that at the moment starting this "circle" you're talking about and shaking this meta up would be only helpful to make it develop towards a more balanced one. Metagross is what is holding it back the most from doing so and removing it would encourage diversity and limitate centralization. Tbh i don't really see anything that once that metagross is gone will become so overcentralizing, but even then i don't see the problem, if we will find some other things that are worth being suspected (which is likely gonna happen, maybe not immediately) we'll do it and if we think they're restraining the meta we'll just send them to ubers, we cannot exactly predict how the meta will settle after a ban so we should focus only on this one and not theorize too much and what comes next. Also i see from what you've said that you consider XY as a period of mindless bans of random stuff and the final result of the meta to be very disappoining, i think that the outcome of the XY era was a pretty enjoyable metagame without particularly centrilizing threats and a good variety in pokemons and playstyles and i also agree with pretty much every ban that made it possible (yeah even aegi).
 
I really dislike the "don't use the set of champions" line of thinking. For Greninja, it is like "Greninja doesn't have 4MSS because it can choose its moves to fit the team." How is this any different from Mega Metagross? It can choose between Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, or any variation thereof to fit its team. It's a ridiculous double standard.

Also, the "forces you to use unviable things to counter" is kind of ridiculous too. That's known as meta shift. Counter Skarmory isn't even that bad of an option normally (stops Excadrill and whatnot). Unless you are using like Float Stone Slowbro (which is just dumb considering the existence of Slowking), it is hard to say Mega Metagross is forcing you to run unviable Pokemon.

Just my 2c.

Because Greninja has 4 free moveslots(because it has STAB on everything) and Megagross only has 1(Because it needs both of his STABS and Hammer Arm for Steels.), that is why.
 
In practice this isn't true. The pokemon that were significantly improved by Aegislash's ban were Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham, however all three of them have became much worse with ORAS (M-Gardy a bit less) because of the faster-paced metagame and new megas who either beat or outclass them.
We still have only two really viable ghost types in OU (Sableye and Gengar), random fire and ground moves are still everywhere and the competition for the coveted mega slot is still as fierce as ever, regardless of spooky swords needing to be checked. In the end Aegislash didn't warp the metagame around itself nearly as much as a lot of people say, and in fact I'm beginning to question if "overcentralization" could be listed as a pro-ban argument at all, since we have Landorus-T who is extremely common yet it doesn't really affect teambuilding (it's not like Electric types carry HP Ice just for that, for example), is an all-around great pokemon but it has its limits and most of us would agree that it's not broken.
Most electric types carry HP ice just for neutral boltbeam coverage aegislash pretty much forced pokemon like the mention pokemon above, but terrakian and mega Pinser were pretty much required to run earthquake to not get walled. There is centralizing in OU, but Metagross isn't centralizing the tier in a sense that it forces pokemon to run sub par moves and wrap the meta around it like Aegislash did.
 
man i think that at the moment starting this "circle" you're talking about and shaking this meta up would be only helpful to make it develop towards a more balanced one. Metagross is what is holding it back the most from doing so and removing it would encourage diversity and limitate centralization. Tbh i don't really see anything that once that metagross is gone will become so overcentralizing, but even then i don't see the problem, if we will find some other things that are worth being suspected (which is likely gonna happen, maybe not immediately) we'll do it and if we think they're restraining the meta we'll just send them to ubers, we cannot exactly predict how the meta will settle after a ban so we should focus only on this one and not theorize too much and what comes next. Also i see from what you've said that you consider XY as a period of mindless bans of random stuff and the final result of the meta to be very disappoining, i think that the outcome of the XY era was a pretty enjoyable metagame without particularly centrilizing threats and a good variety in pokemons and playstyles and i also agree with pretty much every ban that made it possible (yeah even aegi).
You missed my entire point.

This current meta-game isn't too centralizing at all. We may have a core of S-rank pokemon, but you don't have to run one to be relatively successful in OU. If we were in-fact to remove one of those cores, the rest then become far more overbearing and thus, they banned literally an entire roster of pokemon that did nothing to advance or hold back anything other than add variety to what we could use.

At this point, I'm surprised there is no tier between Ubers and OU yet.
 
Diancie isn't the main issue that most people are raising questions about or have a problem with (though it is prominent).

The thing is the Meta-game remaining stable, we're sitting on a mountain top currently of powerful Pokemon in OU with the S-rank Pokemon at the very tip, should we get rid of one, the idea is that it spirals out of control and we go through another year of pointlessly banning stuff that checked/countered something else previously. Banning Megagross isn't the main concern, its rather how we're handling this.

And before I'm told "That's not an argument." I think it's valid to look at what's being used at the moment, Meta-gross isn't dominating the entire ladder as an unstoppable force or something you have to look into having on your own team. It's not "loss at match up" and it's most certainly not "if it carries X move I lose." People are treating Megagross like it can run everything at one time and that's what's concerning. Next thing you or I know, it's banned and now we have a long list of Pokemon to kick out of the tier before we address ACTUAL issues.

What I'm saying is that we have literally two stable meta-games:

The one with Mega-Metagross

The one without Mega-Metagross and several other Pokemon that follow

I'm all for keeping as many pokemon that are not causing actual issues in as possible and I have yet to see a game where M-Metagross 6-0'd a game because someone happened to have the right moveset that did not come from a Misprediction.

And before anyone angrily types, "But that's not how Smogon does it you fucking retard." I'm not even using the damn thing. I keep seeing all the S-rank Pokemon at literally it's own tier slightly above OU where all the power is focused, it's like taking shears to trim the tip of a sand castle, it's overkill and not getting us anywhere. On it's own merits, Megagross is powerful, but it's not overbearing and meta-game defining as Greninja, it doesn't require checks/counters from NU to take on, or plenty of other Pokemon that have been banned previously, it's just good. However as soon as one good Pokemon is kicked off, we now have to kick off several other Pokemon because they went from good to great due to Megagrosses absence. And at the end of the day, what changed between the ORAS meta-game and the XY meta-game should this happen, Sceptile got a mega-stone, Greninja was banned, and now Starmie is now back in OU. Literally, fuck all happened, not much changed because we banned everything before it all actually settled.

I guess the proper phrase is that People are tired of walking in a fucking circle.

I'm still for No Ban not because it's healthier for the Meta-game to keep him in, it's healthier for the Meta-game to change and adapt to the tools that were just thrown at us.

This suspect is honestly very reminiscent of Tyranitar from Gen 4 now that I think about it...


I was going to make this post after I finished getting 2700 COIL but I saw your post and... you hit the nail clean on the head. A lot of us are tired of walking in a mindless circle that degenerates the metagame.

The biggest issue with the suspect ladder is we are banning a highly viable Pokemon that will in turn allow more Pokemon to become viable. The problem with this is the cycle will not end. There will ALWAYS be a Pokemon that is as powerful as MegaGross in any given meta. There will always be a stand-out Pokemon that people complain about. Right now, on the suspect ladder, the Fairy Megas are running rampant and people are saying that this is healthy. If anything it's the opposite. You are allowing the meta to degenerate so that you can suspect Pokemon that are fine in the current meta. This is why Pokemon are categorized by viability. You can ban them, but then a new threat comes into the picture to be suspected. Then you ban that, and the process repeats itself over and over and over until there is NOTHING left. Stopping this ban is actually crucial to breaking a vicious cycle and progessing the state of the metagame. If people want to say this ban is simply just about Metagross? They're naive and you're more than welcome to say I'm naive in return but part of banning something is understanding how it changes the metagame and how growth occurs. The suspect ladder itself is proven quite well that you are VERY limited in team building. You are more so limited than you are with Metagross in the tier. Why? because the suspect ladder's dominant mega's can hit a majority of the mega's in this tier for super-effective damage. Which means you are restricting team-building. You are promoting the same over-centralization that people are crying that Metagross causes. Meanwhile the pre-Suspect Ladder had a wide variety of usage, you didn't just have one archetype raining over all. It was used, but it wasn't the only solution.

If anyone takes anything out of this post, I hope it's that they need to seriously think. We shouldn't just ban Pokemon from the tier because they're fantastic at what they do. We need to assess the impact on the metagame as a whole. That's essential, else-wise we're going to degenerate the meta down to a pathetic shell of what it could be.

I'm roughly 700 COIL away from hitting my 2700 so I can attempt to stop this mistake from happening. When the day comes I will be voting no ban, and while I understand a few diehards won't consider changing their mind, I hope that other people, reasonable people, can actually think about this.
 
Okay, so mega metagross as of right now holds 700 bst in total. With further speculation; however, the method of stopping metagross doesn't rely on the specific pokemon counter but the circumstances of the battle itself. I have used metagross countless of times and theoretically on paper it seems that it works but in regards of practice that isn't necessarily correct. I believe the notion should be passed for a later time and that we should wait a little longer to see how players adapt and how the meta changes. So as of right now, I vote for NO BAN
 
I was going to make this post after I finished getting 2700 COIL but I saw your post and... you hit the nail clean on the head. A lot of us are tired of walking in a mindless circle that degenerates the metagame.
I have a question not just for you, but for a lot of people who are making the same claim that this post makes: What do you mean by degenerates the metagame? I know of a lot of people (myself included) who felt like the bans that were made led us to a very enjoyable metagame at the end of xy. The ladder wasn't centralized around any really overbearing threat(s) [I deal with this later], but there was still some form of order and you had an idea of what to expect (ie: variety but not chaos). Or at least thats how I found it, I honestly want to know how you find this degenerative? Or at least what you mean by that word. (Examples would be nice).

There will ALWAYS be a Pokemon that is as powerful as MegaGross in any given meta.
Now I don't want to say that this is completely wrong, but this is completely wrong. When Mawilite was banned, did some other pokemon randomly start hitting virtually the entire tier for >70% damage unboosted? When Greninja was banned, did we suddenly see pokemon demolishing virtually any defensive core? There will always be top-tier threats, thats how the game works, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) there won't be anything AS powerful as MegaGross. And thats the problem. Toe-to-toe, so many pokemon come up on the short end of the stick vs metagross which gives it time to bash virtually any switch-in quite hard.

This is why Pokemon are categorized by viability. You can ban them, but then a new threat comes into the picture to be suspected. Then you ban that, and the process repeats itself over and over and over until there is NOTHING left. Stopping this ban is actually crucial to breaking a vicious cycle and progessing the state of the metagame.
This may be based on your earlier claim that there will always be a pokemon as powerful as MegaGross, but I'm going to treat it differently. A new 'broken' threat doesn't have to come into the picture at the end of the day. You may end up with some really good top-tier threats, but ones that are manageable. Look at the S-Ranked threats at the end of XY: Charizard X, Greninja, Keldeo, Latios. All of these pokemon have reliable switch-ins that will can counter/check every (reasonable) set. Slowbro, Celebi and Mega Venusaur will (again reasonably) always beat Keldeo. Charizard X had Landorus-T, Slowbro and Hippowdon, Latios had Clefable, Heatran, and Sylveon that could switch in, and Greninja was probably the most broken but guess what? AV Azumarill, Clefable, Ferrothorn (most of the time), and Chansey were safe switch-ins. There are obviously more switch-ins, but those are the ones off the top of my head. So unless you can (a) explain to me how we could have achieved this metagame without banning all those things like Mawile and Aegislash or (b) show me that this wasn't a desireable metagame, then I'm going to stick to my guns and say that XY was indeed a desirable metagame, and since Metagross takes these S-Ranked threats and makes them look like walks in the park, it needs to go.

The suspect ladder itself is proven quite well that you are VERY limited in team building. You are more so limited than you are with Metagross in the tier. Why? because the suspect ladder's dominant mega's can hit a majority of the mega's in this tier for super-effective damage. Which means you are restricting team-building. You are promoting the same over-centralization that people are crying that Metagross causes. Meanwhile the pre-Suspect Ladder had a wide variety of usage, you didn't just have one archetype raining over all. It was used, but it wasn't the only solution.
What proof do you have for that first claim? Or the claim that we're promoting overcentralization? Because in the 60 or so battles I've had on the suspect ladder, I've seen a lot of balance, quite a few HO teams, a handful of weather teams, and maybe 10 or so stall teams. This doesn't seem centralized or restricted to me. Diancie isn't on every team like you make it seem it is, and Fairys didn't suddenly become insanely OP like some people are making it out to be.

And lastly
I'm roughly 700 COIL away from hitting my 2700 so I can attempt to stop this mistake from happening. When the day comes I will be voting no ban, and while I understand a few diehards won't consider changing their mind, I hope that other people, reasonable people, can actually think about this.
I'm not going to get into the rhetoric of that sentence, but I hope you can believe I spent a lot of time thinking about that, and I still disagree.

EDITS: Made the words sound prettier/more technically correct and fixed some grammar issues. (Also added tldr).
TL;DR since this is a long post that hits a lot of points: Please stop making claims without any supporting evidence because they hold as much water as I do saying I'm 7'3" and French. If you say "Banning things degenerates the metagame" please do us all a favor and explain HOW banning this has this effect, and (please for the love of God) provide actual examples. Same thing goes for people claiming that late XY was a terrible metagame. It actually gives us something to debate about/discuss and makes YOUR arguments stronger.
 
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I don't know if theres much to add to the discussion, but i would just like to bring up my points on mega metagross now that ive got the reqs to vote.
First: it has amazing stats. Its a powerhouse which also has a great speed tier coupled with a 80/150/110 bulk paired with the typing to abuse that bulk. This lets mega metagross be free to switch into hits like draco meteors and then hitting back hard.
Second: It has a great movepool. Sure, maybe not the best but it has strong stab moves and the coverage it needs in EQ, ice punch, hammer arm, pursuit (which is huge to trap stuff like the lati twins and celebi, as they wont want to eat a meteor mash), grass knot, w/e it decides to run, hell, it can even give SR support pretty comfortably due to his good bulk and offensive presence.
Third: Its counters are easily lured. I've seen people say "but it has so many counters!" they are not *that* many, and most with proper team support aka lures or metagross running the proper move means they will fall and just open the way for metagross to smash shit up.
Overall, i think metagross is way too centralizing and if it stays, i really dont think the meta will get better anytime soon. So that being said, i'll be voting ban.
PS: ive also seen this "oh, if we ban mega metagross x mon will be too good!!!". The policy is that if banning x mon makes y mon overpowered, that mon will get banned as well, so dont let that take you away from voting ban.
 
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