Archeops isn't broken because of Aggron. Archeops is broken because of Protean. Archeops can run many different moves from either Kecleon or Greninja to break would-be checks, including Knock Off, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Hydro Pump, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, and even Grass Knot. I resorted to calcing random NFEs trying to find something that avoids the 2HKO from every move it could possibly carry. The closest thing I could find to a reliable counter that had use outside of countering Archeops was Hippowdon, which gets completely destroyed by Ice Beam / Hydro Pump(You don't even have to predict, all of its other moves bring hippo down to KO range). The best thing I found was Flash Fire Ferroseed. Not Ferrothorn, FerroSEED. Even that loses to either Brick Break or Drain Punch, or even Knock Off + Low Kick. This thing is just like Greninja was in OU as it could choose its checks to suit its team. I was fully behind a ban of that, which gives me no reason not to support a ban of this.
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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
Archeops isn't broken because of Aggron. Archeops is broken because of Protean. Archeops can run many different moves from either Kecleon or Greninja to break would-be checks, including Knock Off, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Hydro Pump, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, and even Grass Knot. I resorted to calcing random NFEs trying to find something that avoids the 2HKO from every move it could possibly carry. The closest thing I could find to a reliable counter that had use outside of countering Archeops was Hippowdon, which gets completely destroyed by Ice Beam / Hydro Pump(You don't even have to predict, all of its other moves bring hippo down to KO range). The best thing I found was Flash Fire Ferroseed. Not Ferrothorn, FerroSEED. Even that loses to either Brick Break or Drain Punch, or even Knock Off + Low Kick. This thing is just like Greninja was in OU as it could choose its checks to suit its team. I was fully behind a ban of that, which gives me no reason not to support a ban of this.
Due to the overwhelming presence of stall, having a good stall-breaker on your team is never a bad choice. Here is one particular stall-breaker set that i have been having a lot of fun with lately.
Terrakion @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Leech Seed / Toxic
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
Obviously inherits from Breloom. One might wonder why I would pick Terrakion of all things as a stall-breaker? Well, in my opinion Terrakion has the perfect blend of speed, power, bulk, typing, and surprise factor (most expect something like adaptability terrak), that makes Terrakion a perfect fit for this role. Terrakion beats a lot of stall pokemon, simply because they are hopeless to do anything against it thanks to leech seed + poison heal. The only stall mons that beat Terrakion are bulky magic bouncers such as Cresselia and sometimes Doublade and Aegislash.
It's cool to note that Terrakion destroys every variant of Chansey I can think of.
Now onto the moveset. Possibly the biggest reason of using this over something like adaptability Terrakion is because he has SPORE, which is a fantastic move to have no matter what scenario. Leech seed is for extra healing shenanigans alongside PH and chips at the enemy's health, but now that i think about it (even though i haven't tested it) toxic seems like a good option here since you can only put one pokemon to sleep and it screws up stall more so than leech seed. And the only steel types i ever see are Doublade which wall you anyway. Substitute is to avoid being hit, and Focus Punch is Terrakion's powerful STAB move that works well in conjunction with spore and substitute.
Don't underestimate it's bulk and typing either, Terrakion can easily take a knock off from any unboosted Pokemon, and i remember one time Terrak's sub survived a scald from Suicune (yeah i don't know).
Some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-214718256
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-214670621
What are your thoughts on this? Sure it gets walled by Doublade and magic bouncers and stuff, but that's what teammates are for, right?
Terrakion @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Leech Seed / Toxic
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
Obviously inherits from Breloom. One might wonder why I would pick Terrakion of all things as a stall-breaker? Well, in my opinion Terrakion has the perfect blend of speed, power, bulk, typing, and surprise factor (most expect something like adaptability terrak), that makes Terrakion a perfect fit for this role. Terrakion beats a lot of stall pokemon, simply because they are hopeless to do anything against it thanks to leech seed + poison heal. The only stall mons that beat Terrakion are bulky magic bouncers such as Cresselia and sometimes Doublade and Aegislash.
It's cool to note that Terrakion destroys every variant of Chansey I can think of.
Now onto the moveset. Possibly the biggest reason of using this over something like adaptability Terrakion is because he has SPORE, which is a fantastic move to have no matter what scenario. Leech seed is for extra healing shenanigans alongside PH and chips at the enemy's health, but now that i think about it (even though i haven't tested it) toxic seems like a good option here since you can only put one pokemon to sleep and it screws up stall more so than leech seed. And the only steel types i ever see are Doublade which wall you anyway. Substitute is to avoid being hit, and Focus Punch is Terrakion's powerful STAB move that works well in conjunction with spore and substitute.
Don't underestimate it's bulk and typing either, Terrakion can easily take a knock off from any unboosted Pokemon, and i remember one time Terrak's sub survived a scald from Suicune (yeah i don't know).
Some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-214718256
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-214670621
What are your thoughts on this? Sure it gets walled by Doublade and magic bouncers and stuff, but that's what teammates are for, right?
Due to the overwhelming presence of stall, having a good stall-breaker on your team is never a bad choice. Here is one particular stall-breaker set that i have been having a lot of fun with lately.
Terrakion @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Leech Seed / Toxic
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
Obviously inherits from Breloom. One might wonder why I would pick Terrakion of all things as a stall-breaker? Well, in my opinion Terrakion has the perfect blend of speed, power, bulk, typing, and surprise factor (most expect something like adaptability terrak), that makes Terrakion a perfect fit for this role. Terrakion beats a lot of stall pokemon, simply because they are hopeless to do anything against it thanks to leech seed + poison heal. The only stall mons that beat Terrakion are bulky magic bouncers such as Cresselia and sometimes Doublade and Aegislash.
It's cool to note that Terrakion destroys every variant of Chansey I can think of.
Now onto the moveset. Possibly the biggest reason of using this over something like adaptability Terrakion is because he has SPORE, which is a fantastic move to have no matter what scenario. Leech seed is for extra healing shenanigans alongside PH and chips at the enemy's health, but now that i think about it (even though i haven't tested it) toxic seems like a good option here since you can only put one pokemon to sleep and it screws up stall more so than leech seed. And the only steel types i ever see are Doublade which wall you anyway. Substitute is to avoid being hit, and Focus Punch is Terrakion's powerful STAB move that works well in conjunction with spore and substitute.
Don't underestimate it's bulk and typing either, Terrakion can easily take a knock off from any unboosted Pokemon, and i remember one time Terrak's sub survived a scald from Suicune (yeah i don't know).
Some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-214718256
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-214670621
What are your thoughts on this? Sure it gets walled by Doublade and magic bouncers and stuff, but that's what teammates are for, right?
Actually, there are better things this can do. Breloom can give a lot of quick and bulky mons the right blend of recovery in PH and Offense in SD. PH also makes sure you're not burned/toxiced.
If you ask me, Inheriting from Breloom is more lopsided than inheriting from Sableye.
Yes but inheriting from anything that doesn't learn a useful Flying move, Aggron/Relicanth included, leaves you completely walled by this guy.
Spiky (Chesnaught) @ Leftovers [Inheriting from Slowbro]
Ability: Regenerator
Impish Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Pretty much the only way to get a decent Flying move in conjunction with SmashQuake is to inherit from yourself (lel Defeatist) or Hydreigon (lel Flying-type with Levitat). Plus, then you're forced to run Acrobatics, which means Choice Band limits your power severely. Spiky can take every move your Archeops can throw at it. Even Superpower is only a 3HKO, and that reduces in power over time. Any damage can be easily recovered with Slack Off or Drain Punch. Thunder Wave lets you cripple Archeops for the entire match.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-157 (35 - 41.3%) -- 76% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 59-70 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 53-63 (13.9 - 16.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 121-144 (41.5 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Of course Gale Wings Archeops slaughters this thing if it's not locked into a move other than BB.
Just felt like building a counter.
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 432-508 (113.6 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKOYes but inheriting from anything that doesn't learn a useful Flying move, Aggron/Relicanth included, leaves you completely walled by this guy.
Spiky (Chesnaught) @ Leftovers [Inheriting from Slowbro]
Ability: Regenerator
Impish Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Pretty much the only way to get a decent Flying move in conjunction with SmashQuake is to inherit from yourself (lel Defeatist) or Hydreigon (lel Flying-type with Levitat). Plus, then you're forced to run Acrobatics, which means Choice Band limits your power severely. Spiky can take every move your Archeops can throw at it. Even Superpower is only a 3HKO, and that reduces in power over time. Any damage can be easily recovered with Slack Off or Drain Punch. Thunder Wave lets you cripple Archeops for the entire match.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-157 (35 - 41.3%) -- 76% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 59-70 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 53-63 (13.9 - 16.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 121-144 (41.5 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Of course Gale Wings Archeops slaughters this thing if it's not locked into a move other than BB.
Just felt like building a counter.
>tfw Aggron has aerial ace
It literally has no reason to not run AA
Oh right AA. Well, no reason to inherit from Relicanth now
Thundurus (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
What I was thinking was no electric immunity. To do this, I put Delta Stream on Thundurus to get rid of Flying weakness and make it have weaknesses. Although I guess Levitate could be better :/
EDIT: I suck at moves.
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
What I was thinking was no electric immunity. To do this, I put Delta Stream on Thundurus to get rid of Flying weakness and make it have weaknesses. Although I guess Levitate could be better :/
EDIT: I suck at moves.
I have tried a similar set except for tornadus and i dont recommend running delta stream since your main stab is tbolt and it becomes basically poison type offensively in gen 5, and that is pretty shit, so i recommend running a different ability for it.
Here's something absolutely ridiculous:
Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Iron Tail
- Toxic
- Protect / Roar
- U-Turn
The most ridiculous physical tank you'll ever see. U-Turn is needed so special attackers won't ruin your fun.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Steelix on a critical hit: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Iron Tail
- Toxic
- Protect / Roar
- U-Turn
The most ridiculous physical tank you'll ever see. U-Turn is needed so special attackers won't ruin your fun.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Steelix on a critical hit: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yes but inheriting from anything that doesn't learn a useful Flying move, Aggron/Relicanth included, leaves you completely walled by this guy.
Spiky (Chesnaught) @ Leftovers [Inheriting from Slowbro]
Ability: Regenerator
Impish Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Pretty much the only way to get a decent Flying move in conjunction with SmashQuake is to inherit from yourself (lel Defeatist) or Hydreigon (lel Flying-type with Levitat). Plus, then you're forced to run Acrobatics, which means Choice Band limits your power severely. Spiky can take every move your Archeops can throw at it. Even Superpower is only a 3HKO, and that reduces in power over time. Any damage can be easily recovered with Slack Off or Drain Punch. Thunder Wave lets you cripple Archeops for the entire match.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 133-157 (35 - 41.3%) -- 76% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 59-70 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Archeops Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 53-63 (13.9 - 16.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 121-144 (41.5 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Of course Gale Wings Archeops slaughters this thing if it's not locked into a move other than BB.
Just felt like building a counter.
several things, the first being the fact that aggron learns aerial ace. More significantly however, gale wings archeops is as good as lant in many regards and is a common enough set (alongside speed boost - which packs BB) that it is a big problem to this thing.
that wasn't the broken set nor was it what I was implying was. I was stating an underrated set tbh, because both Gale wings, Protean, and several other sets all make it broken together. Rock head is simply an underrated, powerful set that deviates from the normal pair of sets enough so it has its own niche. Nuff said.
Jesus man you would have to have a very very physical attack prone team to justify using this. Even as is, I wouldn't run it just because of the lack of recovery. You can be the bulkiest thing in the world but if you don't have longetivity it's hard to justify use. A set I've been trying for Steelix on my stall team:
Avalugg (Steelix) @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
This set has been a very efficient hazard clearer for me, as it 4x resists rocks and is immune to Tspikes. Gyro Ball and EQ are STABs to make it not totally passive, Spin clears hazards, and Recover gives the thing your set lacks: longetivity.
for the most part, steelix is outclassed by aggron in almost every way. that is a very good maggron set, however.
I see your point, but I feel like the extra typing, at least for this role, make it better in this case. Not only does it not care about hazards as much as Aggron (even tho aggron still doesn't a little damage it a little damage, but EQ is a good option to hit some stuff decently hard. Plus it just generally fit my team better, with the ground type and all.
Ninjask @ Occa Berry
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hypnosis
- Nightmare
- Dream Eater
- X-Scissor
Okay, I know this is probably a bad pokemon and a bad item, but I wanted a sweeper who could put the target to sleep and have bad dreams. Darkrai is okay and all, but there are some better pokemon who could probably use its set.
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hypnosis
- Nightmare
- Dream Eater
- X-Scissor
Okay, I know this is probably a bad pokemon and a bad item, but I wanted a sweeper who could put the target to sleep and have bad dreams. Darkrai is okay and all, but there are some better pokemon who could probably use its set.
Darkrai has Dark void
Adding onto that:
And ninjask has 50 Spa. And nightmare is useless; they'll just switch out. And you're giving up the only reason ninjask has ANY usage: speed boost. Really, i see nothing worthwhile about this set.
You are probably better off using Greninja or something similar so it can abuse nasty plot + dark void and attempt to sweep. And even then it's not that amazing due to unaware and priority being everywhere.
However darkrai has a solid physical movepool that includes sucker punch and knock off, and has swords dance as well. Dark void swords dance is a potent combo, and sucker punch beats gale wings sets. I've been using weavile for this, and its pretty potent as it also wears down walls with bad dreams and forces a lot of switches.
I never knew Darkrai got SD and sucker punch, thats actually pretty neat lol
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Mega Steelix does gain STAB on EQ, Gyro Ball does more damage (because its slower than maggron), and takes neutral hit better thanks to its slightly better bulk, and its extra ground typing does have some defensive utility such as immunity to electric.
But otherwise Maggron outclasses it thanks to having an incredibly superior ability - filter/sand force.
Sorry for the double reply guys but for some reason i cant edit my posts ;__;
Guys, guys... Megagross w/ heavy slam from Aggron. GG for days.
EDIT: it loses gk tho, so that's not awesome, but still.
EDIT: it loses gk tho, so that's not awesome, but still.
And even gets things like head smash and sucker lunch omg Megagross is a top tier threat