A hard hitting Knock Off is very nice in the meta and makes wallbreaking much easier. You would be surprised how few things actually resist Knock Off, and how much damage it does with basically no investment.
8 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 157-187 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still seems an odd choice to me, but that makes
some kind of sense.
Poison can be slashed with Dark for a more powerful Sludge Wave, but all that extra power does is secure an OHKO on Clefable who takes between 80-90% anyways. Manaphy is already OHKO'd by Sludge Wave without STAB, and Altaria is OHKO'd by Earth Power anyways(though Sludge Wave will still OHKO without STAB if Fire).
Actually, Sludge Wave makes for a bizarrely good neutral STAB because most things that aren't running Steel either don't resist it or don't resist Earth Power. (Rock and Poison are both vulnerable to Ground, for one thing)
Grass is great for stallbreaking sets, and better than Dragon because you keep your Fairy resist and are still neutral to Dragon, which is important when it comes to handling things like Mega Altaria. You still get the Water/Electric neutrality too. The worth of a mon is not decided by how much damage it takes from Stealth Rocks, I really don't know why you keep using that as the standard for judging the quality of an additional typing. There is more to the meta than making sure you are Rocks-proof, explore it sometime.
When you expect a Pokemon to switch in and out a lot it
kind of matters how vulnerable it is to hazards, particularly Stealth Rock. Talonflame is a Pokemon
very prone to switching in and out, and since its preferred attacks have recoil damage even shenanigans with HP values so you won't die to 2 Stealth Rock switches aren't very effective.
A Pokemon that expects to lead or switch in one time and then go for a sweep/some form of setup isn't necessarily as bothered by being doubly weak to Stealth Rock, but I've not seen anyone run Talonflame that way in Hidden Type and honestly I don't
expect to see it run that way.
In particular, Talonflame is a troubleshooter that
needs to be able to switch in anytime on whatever you need it for. The opponent being able to just switch in and out the thing Talonflame is an "answer" to, and thus
KO Talonflame, is a pretty awful thing.
It's also
strange that you think I'm using Stealth Rock weakness-level as a
metric for how good a typing is, when I've been commenting on benefits and downsides of
various sorts,
one of which is the degree of Stealth Rock weakness. I routinely comment on "immune to Toxic", "immune to ground hazards", "immune to Sandstorm", "immune to Spore and Powder moves" even when the Pokemon in question mostly doesn't care about a given mentioned thing. ("Fire Clefable cannot be Burned" when describing a Magic Guard variant, say)
Keldeo being Ground means you can come in on the Electric types that used to threaten you like Zapdos, Rotom-Wash and Thundurus(lacking Grass Knot), as well as be immune to T-wave. There is no better typing for Keldeo; its movepool is incredibly shallow, but despite that it's still an incredibly hard-hitting threat. Another thing to note is that being weak to Grass is mostly irrelevant when the biggest Grass type in the meta does not want to switch in on you.
Fair enough.
I do find it odd that Electric isn't on there at all, though. Complete Paralysis immunity, resist Electric, and resists Flying are all relevant.
Also later stuff makes it a little more questionable that the Grass weakness is "mostly irrelevant": you're of the opinion that Grass Grass Knot Thundurus (One of the Pokemon you name as Ground typing letting Keldeo deal with, in fact) is an A-level Pokemon.
It's a Rocks setter that can hit Dragonite very hard with Ice STAB, and like I stated before, having a hard hitting Knock Off(harder than Bisharp's) is valuable and hits a lot of things for a lot of damage. It also has Freeze Dry to get around things like Hippowdon
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 395-468 (94 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Double Fighting weakness doesn't matter when the only Fighting types are Scrafty and Lopunny. The first one being absolutely destroyed by Earthquake, the second you would have 0 chance of beating 1v1 anyways unless you're sashed. And if you're sashed you still don't care about double Fighting weakness.
Because no Pokemon ever ran Fighting coverage in the history of Pokemon.
A double weakness makes it a lot more likely that random coverage can wipe you out in one shot, even with solid bulk, and there are plenty of Pokemon that run Fighting coverage. Not only that, but it opens up Mamoswine to Fairy attacks, which is not thrilling when multiple important Pokemon are Fairies using Fairy moves. A powerful Knock Off is neat, but if it's not doing anything really amazing like turning a 2HKO into a 1HKO, is it worth all that vulnerability? Especially since Mamoswine is a slow Pokemon with no way to get faster.
Why are you assuming no Pokemon ever runs anything except STAB attacks, exactly?
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 315-374 (88.9 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
A misconception you seem to have is that "every mon must have an impeccable defensive typing, even the offensive ones!", when really playing offense in this meta is about adding typings that help you get around the things that would normally check you. Not every mon needs to have as few weaknesses as possible and the most resists possible.
Solid defensive typings that allow you to ignore coverage or laugh at theoretical counters are
especially helpful to offensive pokemon. Steel Dragonite isn't exactly leaning on some massive increase in firepower to be an S-rank threat, is it? Nor do I think impeccable defensive typing is vitally important for all Pokemon -I just don't see the point in taking a typing that opens up new weaknesses for a limited or nonexistent benefit. That calc against Gliscor, for instance, shows that non-Grass Thundurus will 2HKO it without STAB, and in fact OHKO it with Nasty Plot-backed Grass Knot, where the STAB-boosted variant is only a small shot at KOing it -and besides, most Gliscor are Specially Defensive, in which case even with Stealth Rock that isn't a shot at a OHKO. Why exactly is this worth vulnerability to Poison, Fire, and a double weakness to Ice? I'd rather take a stronger defensive typing (Steel is of course the obvious pick) and use Nasty Plot to setup and send Gliscor crying home.
Alternatively, I'd run Ice Thundurus, accept that I'm a pack of weaknesses, and do stuff like hit Dragonite with STAB Hidden Power Ice. Yeah, Hidden Power Ice is almost never hitting on a double weakness in Hidden Type, but it's still better coverage than Grass is, overall, and has more reliable BP than Grass Knot.
Wall Dragonite? Not much sadly...there are only checks really, no real good counters
(Quote by Ghoul King)
Dragonite is generally brought to a screeching halt by...
-Flying Heatran. Even carrying Thunderpunch or the like only goes so far to mitigate this. (Special Rain Dragonite not so much, but it's probably obvious that it's coming) Uh yeah have fun with that :
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 262-310 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-Grass Heatran. If Dragonite is carrying Earthquake, it can put some pain in on Heatran, but if it isn't it's got nothing it can do at all. (Special Rain Dragonite can get in some damage, but not nearly as well as against Flying Heatran) Have fun with that too
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 418-494 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-Quagsire, sort of. (It can't Toxic it, but it can Burn it and then either push through a lot of PP or pass the buck off to some other, non-Unaware wall, or to an Unaware Clefable) You got me. But if I have Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, your Quagsire can do nothing :D
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-Non-Dragon Skarmory is unafraid of anything except bizarre, Fire Blast carrying sets, and any set carrying Fire Blast specifically to counter Skarmory is much, much less threatening. And then it can Whirlwind out Dragonite just fine. Nah...max def, max hp Skarmory =
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO - Sorry but once you Whirlwind, you won't survive twice (with SR).
-Water Hippowdon. Draco Meteor is basically all Dragonite can carry to seriously hurt it (No you can't carry Hidden Power Grass, because that means you're Grass Dragonite and hilariously bad. lol x8 Ice weakness), and it again severely compromises Dragonite's ability to threaten other things. Well you will have to run whirlwind :
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-Water Gliscor, sort of. With good prediction you can Knock Off Dragonite's HP down to Roosting levels and then catch it with Earthquake and kill it. Ice Punch is all Dragonite can carry to hurry things up, and honestly it's probably not worth it -Dragon Claw is almost as powerful and doesn't involve compromising Dragonite's utility. Good luck with that ;D
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 226-267 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 271-321 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+5 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 316-373 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 361-426 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So in about 5~ turns of DDancing +6 will kill. Now lets see Gliscor's damage rolls.
With an item -
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 70-83 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Without an item -
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 47-56 (12.1 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
Earthquake -
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 218-258 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Water Ferrothorn, or Ghost Ferrothorn. Not perfect, particularly the latter if Dragonite carries Fire Punch or the like, but just the ability to throw out Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc means Dragonite really really doesn't want to stay in on it when it can't even take it down without substantial boosting. Yeah I guess.
-Steel Mega Slowbro. +6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steel Mega Slowbro: 137-162 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Just spam Calm Mind and Slack Off and then murder Dragonite. Or spam Scald and Slack Off. Carrying Thunderpunch or Earthquake helps, but it still requires heavy boosting to work, +6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as in Mega Slowbro has to let you get all the way to +6 to actually start dying if it gets you Burned with Scald. And even then, it can potentially Slack Off through the attacks until Dragonite Burns to death, or with good prediction get a hit in when Dragonite Roosts. Not even getting into the possibility of Iron Defense Mega Slowbro, which laughs at any Dragonite that isn't carrying Special. Until you run out of PP :D
I'm just saying, Clefable works too as long as there is no Earthquake (Ugggh another check not counter)...
Steel Mega Slowbro: Dragonite has PP too. Why are you ignoring that?
Gliscor: Why are you calcing
bulky Dragonite?
Hippowdon: It's Roar, and of course you're running it. I didn't specify because, yeah, obviously it can't do a lot to
kill Dragonite.
Skarmory: So Skarmory blows it out, heals on whatever comes in, and repeats it whenever convenient? How is that not a check?
Grass Heatran: Superpower Dragonite is an
incredibly bad idea and I've never seen anyone run it.
Flying Heatran: Fair enough.
Quagsire: Burning Dragonite and forcing it to lose its boosts
and get Heal Belled is still a win for Quagsire's team, especially if they can take advantage of the situation to kill the cleric or something.
