Hidden Type

well since someone already posted it >.>

Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Discharge/ Thunder Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch

I've been using this in my team since scarf magnezone basically failed at being a check to dragonite, being worn down by roost dragon dance. Like the other guy said,
it can switch into steel dragonites not carrying fire punch and proceed to parahax it (while doing legit damage if discharge). This is the entire purpose of this set, parahax so that something else can kill it. Then lets another teammate take it out. I actually didn't invest in defense solely because i wanted it to do something other than check dragonite. With it's decent special attack it actually does good damage to grass manaphy and switch into any non rock/fire serperior and proceed to hit it with hp flying. It's not the best mon, but it does what i needed it to. Right now i just hope people don't start running fire punch dragonite, which is just sad :[

edit: it can actually switch into any unboosted hp fire/rock as well
 
Like other people, I don't quite follow the logic on Dark Landorus-Incarnate. What does it get out of it? I've fought it, but I don't get it. Everything else in A+ I agree with.



Again, why Grass for Talonflame? I get Ground, overall, since it provides immunity to Electric while resisting Stealth Rock, but Grass providing resistance to Water is kind of meh when Stealth Rock rips off half your health, it adds no notable STAB, it renders you weak to Poison, Flying, and Ice... If you want Water resistance, Dragon is far more useful (Gain a Dragon and Ice weakness, stop being weak to Water and Electric) and Water works if you're OK with a double Electric weakness. (And Ground typing leaves you with a double Water weakness too, so "double weakness=awful" clearly doesn't apply)

I've also seen Ground Keldeo so I won't argue it doesn't happen, but I have always been puzzled as to the appeal. Yeah, it removes the Electric weakness, but it also leaves Keldeo cripplingly weak to Grass and the double resistance to Rock is meh while the resistance to Poison is less meh but still meh. Is there really no other type that is better for it?



I still don't get Dark Mamoswine. Yay double Fighting weakness, in exchange for STAB on Knock Off? Again, I've seen people run it, I just find it strange.

I'm more curious about Grass Thundurus. Why would you do that? Especially since anybody assuming Steel is likely to hit it with Fire anyway and still kill it.



Definitely somewhere in B. Flying Excadrill is nice, but not amazing, especially since stuff like Flying Heatran laughs at it. (It honestly surprised me how underwhelming Flying Excadrill actually is)

Kind of surprised I've never seen Ground Tentacruel used as a Rapid Spinner, or maybe Grass or something.



It's in S.



Absolutely a solid B-something, but it doesn't actually KO Steel Dragonite if it's carrying Roost.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Fire Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Steel Dragonite: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 49.9% chance to 3HKO

Meanwhile

+1 252+ Atk Steel Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fire Magneton: 114-135 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

Will usually 2HKO it. Replacing the Specs with Eviolite just means Dragonite can use a mix of Dragon Dance and Roost and ultimately kill it and everything it loves.



I agree, particularly since it combos well with its defensive typing.



+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 440-518 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you say so. Also, if you're Banded, you need Outrage for the reliable OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Steel Dragonite: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

or else you have almost no shot at it.

If you're not Banded, you're Scarfed and now Outrage has that tiny chance of a OHKO, you are restricted to revenging Dragonite and only once it's wounded, and only if it hasn't gotten two Dragon Dances up. Either way, it still OHKOs you.

This is an extremely questionable "takes care of Steel Dragonite easily".



Electric Mega Gardevoir murders Clefable unless it's running Steel, and potentially even then, Poison Scrafty murders Clefable no matter what set it's running so long as it doesn't horribly mis-predict, Dragalge will Sludge Wave non-Steel variants, Grass Mega Charizard Y will Solar Beam Water variants and Fire Blast anything else, Grass Manaphy annihilates it with Energy Ball as previously covered... it hard-walls some important Pokemon, but Clefable doesn't "beat 99% of the meta". It just reliably beats some of staples.

I'm also not following the logic that Clefable being unable to reliably beat Dragonite=Dragonite is broken, particularly when paired with an assertion amounting to "Clefable is broken, and that's a good thing".

Dragonite is generally brought to a screeching halt by...

-Flying Heatran. Even carrying Thunderpunch or the like only goes so far to mitigate this. (Special Rain Dragonite not so much, but it's probably obvious that it's coming)

-Grass Heatran. If Dragonite is carrying Earthquake, it can put some pain in on Heatran, but if it isn't it's got nothing it can do at all. (Special Rain Dragonite can get in some damage, but not nearly as well as against Flying Heatran)

-Quagsire, sort of. (It can't Toxic it, but it can Burn it and then either push through a lot of PP or pass the buck off to some other, non-Unaware wall, or to an Unaware Clefable)

-Non-Dragon Skarmory is unafraid of anything except bizarre, Fire Blast carrying sets, and any set carrying Fire Blast specifically to counter Skarmory is much, much less threatening. And then it can Whirlwind out Dragonite just fine.

-Water Hippowdon. Draco Meteor is basically all Dragonite can carry to seriously hurt it (No you can't carry Hidden Power Grass, because that means you're Grass Dragonite and hilariously bad. lol x8 Ice weakness), and it again severely compromises Dragonite's ability to threaten other things.

-Water Gliscor, sort of. With good prediction you can Knock Off Dragonite's HP down to Roosting levels and then catch it with Earthquake and kill it. Ice Punch is all Dragonite can carry to hurry things up, and honestly it's probably not worth it -Dragon Claw is almost as powerful and doesn't involve compromising Dragonite's utility.

-Water Ferrothorn, or Ghost Ferrothorn. Not perfect, particularly the latter if Dragonite carries Fire Punch or the like, but just the ability to throw out Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc means Dragonite really really doesn't want to stay in on it when it can't even take it down without substantial boosting.

-Steel Mega Slowbro. +6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steel Mega Slowbro: 137-162 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Just spam Calm Mind and Slack Off and then murder Dragonite. Or spam Scald and Slack Off. Carrying Thunderpunch or Earthquake helps, but it still requires heavy boosting to work, +6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as in Mega Slowbro has to let you get all the way to +6 to actually start dying if it gets you Burned with Scald. And even then, it can potentially Slack Off through the attacks until Dragonite Burns to death, or with good prediction get a hit in when Dragonite Roosts. Not even getting into the possibility of Iron Defense Mega Slowbro, which laughs at any Dragonite that isn't carrying Special.

I am 99% confident there's other stuff I'm not thinking of/not remembering/whatever that do a solid job too, it's just they aren't the shiny favorites of Hidden Type. The above is just a number of things I've actually seen a decent amount. (Well, less so Steel Mega Slowbro)
The dark ones are because it doesn't have much else that's better and dark has 31All IVs.
Talonbane can use grass for stab grass natural gift(something it uses sometimes in standard for rock types/rotom)
Ground keld is likely just for pseudo-offSTAB earth power and defensive benefits

Also, if you're gonna forget multiscale on dnite calcs you need to be using stealth rock in calcs
 
Like other people, I don't quite follow the logic on Dark Landorus-Incarnate. What does it get out of it? I've fought it, but I don't get it. Everything else in A+ I agree with.
A hard hitting Knock Off is very nice in the meta and makes wallbreaking much easier. You would be surprised how few things actually resist Knock Off, and how much damage it does with basically no investment.
8 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 157-187 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Poison can be slashed with Dark for a more powerful Sludge Wave, but all that extra power does is secure an OHKO on Clefable who takes between 80-90% anyways. Manaphy is already OHKO'd by Sludge Wave without STAB, and Altaria is OHKO'd by Earth Power anyways(though Sludge Wave will still OHKO without STAB if Fire).

Again, why Grass for Talonflame? I get Ground, overall, since it provides immunity to Electric while resisting Stealth Rock, but Grass providing resistance to Water is kind of meh when Stealth Rock rips off half your health, it adds no notable STAB, it renders you weak to Poison, Flying, and Ice... If you want Water resistance, Dragon is far more useful (Gain a Dragon and Ice weakness, stop being weak to Water and Electric) and Water works if you're OK with a double Electric weakness. (And Ground typing leaves you with a double Water weakness too, so "double weakness=awful" clearly doesn't apply)
Grass is great for stallbreaking sets, and better than Dragon because you keep your Fairy resist and are still neutral to Dragon, which is important when it comes to handling things like Mega Altaria. You still get the Water/Electric neutrality too. The worth of a mon is not decided by how much damage it takes from Stealth Rocks, I really don't know why you keep using that as the standard for judging the quality of an additional typing. There is more to the meta than making sure you are Rocks-proof, explore it sometime.

I've also seen Ground Keldeo so I won't argue it doesn't happen, but I have always been puzzled as to the appeal. Yeah, it removes the Electric weakness, but it also leaves Keldeo cripplingly weak to Grass and the double resistance to Rock is meh while the resistance to Poison is less meh but still meh. Is there really no other type that is better for it?
Keldeo being Ground means you can come in on the Electric types that used to threaten you like Zapdos, Rotom-Wash and Thundurus(lacking Grass Knot), as well as be immune to T-wave. There is no better typing for Keldeo; its movepool is incredibly shallow, but despite that it's still an incredibly hard-hitting threat. Another thing to note is that being weak to Grass is mostly irrelevant when the biggest Grass type in the meta does not want to switch in on you.

I still don't get Dark Mamoswine. Yay double Fighting weakness, in exchange for STAB on Knock Off? Again, I've seen people run it, I just find it strange.
It's a Rocks setter that can hit Dragonite very hard with Ice STAB, and like I stated before, having a hard hitting Knock Off(harder than Bisharp's) is valuable and hits a lot of things for a lot of damage. It also has Freeze Dry to get around things like Hippowdon

16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 395-468 (94 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Double Fighting weakness doesn't matter when the only Fighting types are Scrafty and Lopunny. The first one being absolutely destroyed by Earthquake, the second you would have 0 chance of beating 1v1 anyways unless you're sashed. And if you're sashed you still don't care about double Fighting weakness.

I'm more curious about Grass Thundurus. Why would you do that? Especially since anybody assuming Steel is likely to hit it with Fire anyway and still kill it.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 315-374 (88.9 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

A misconception you seem to have is that "every mon must have an impeccable defensive typing, even the offensive ones!", when really playing offense in this meta is about adding typings that help you get around the things that would normally check you. Not every mon needs to have as few weaknesses as possible and the most resists possible.
 
Wall Dragonite? Not much sadly...there are only checks really, no real good counters

(Quote by Ghoul King)
Dragonite is generally brought to a screeching halt by...

-Flying Heatran. Even carrying Thunderpunch or the like only goes so far to mitigate this. (Special Rain Dragonite not so much, but it's probably obvious that it's coming) Uh yeah have fun with that :
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 262-310 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


-Grass Heatran. If Dragonite is carrying Earthquake, it can put some pain in on Heatran, but if it isn't it's got nothing it can do at all. (Special Rain Dragonite can get in some damage, but not nearly as well as against Flying Heatran) Have fun with that too
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 418-494 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


-Quagsire, sort of. (It can't Toxic it, but it can Burn it and then either push through a lot of PP or pass the buck off to some other, non-Unaware wall, or to an Unaware Clefable) You got me. But if I have Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, your Quagsire can do nothing :D
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


-Non-Dragon Skarmory is unafraid of anything except bizarre, Fire Blast carrying sets, and any set carrying Fire Blast specifically to counter Skarmory is much, much less threatening. And then it can Whirlwind out Dragonite just fine. Nah...max def, max hp Skarmory =
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO - Sorry but once you Whirlwind, you won't survive twice (with SR).


-Water Hippowdon. Draco Meteor is basically all Dragonite can carry to seriously hurt it (No you can't carry Hidden Power Grass, because that means you're Grass Dragonite and hilariously bad. lol x8 Ice weakness), and it again severely compromises Dragonite's ability to threaten other things. Well you will have to run whirlwind :
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


-Water Gliscor, sort of. With good prediction you can Knock Off Dragonite's HP down to Roosting levels and then catch it with Earthquake and kill it. Ice Punch is all Dragonite can carry to hurry things up, and honestly it's probably not worth it -Dragon Claw is almost as powerful and doesn't involve compromising Dragonite's utility. Good luck with that ;D
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 226-267 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 271-321 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+5 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 316-373 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 361-426 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So in about 5~ turns of DDancing +6 will kill. Now lets see Gliscor's damage rolls.

With an item -
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 70-83 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Without an item -
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 47-56 (12.1 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
Earthquake -
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 218-258 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


-Water Ferrothorn, or Ghost Ferrothorn. Not perfect, particularly the latter if Dragonite carries Fire Punch or the like, but just the ability to throw out Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc means Dragonite really really doesn't want to stay in on it when it can't even take it down without substantial boosting. Yeah I guess.

-Steel Mega Slowbro. +6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steel Mega Slowbro: 137-162 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Just spam Calm Mind and Slack Off and then murder Dragonite. Or spam Scald and Slack Off. Carrying Thunderpunch or Earthquake helps, but it still requires heavy boosting to work, +6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as in Mega Slowbro has to let you get all the way to +6 to actually start dying if it gets you Burned with Scald. And even then, it can potentially Slack Off through the attacks until Dragonite Burns to death, or with good prediction get a hit in when Dragonite Roosts. Not even getting into the possibility of Iron Defense Mega Slowbro, which laughs at any Dragonite that isn't carrying Special. Until you run out of PP :D

I'm just saying, Clefable works too as long as there is no Earthquake (Ugggh another check not counter)...
well since someone already posted it >.>

Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Magnet Pull
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Discharge/ Thunder Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch

I've been using this in my team since scarf magnezone basically failed at being a check to dragonite, being worn down by roost dragon dance. Like the other guy said,
it can switch into steel dragonites not carrying fire punch and proceed to parahax it (while doing legit damage if discharge). This is the entire purpose of this set, parahax so that something else can kill it. Then lets another teammate take it out. I actually didn't invest in defense solely because i wanted it to do something other than check dragonite. With it's decent special attack it actually does good damage to grass manaphy and switch into any non rock/fire serperior and proceed to hit it with hp flying. It's not the best mon, but it does what i needed it to. Right now i just hope people don't start running fire punch dragonite, which is just sad :[

edit: it can actually switch into any unboosted hp fire/rock as well
Yeah you told me about this and I thought it was genius :D

The dark ones are because it doesn't have much else that's better and dark has 31All IVs.
Talonbane can use grass for stab grass natural gift(something it uses sometimes in standard for rock types/rotom)
Ground keld is likely just for pseudo-offSTAB earth power and defensive benefits

Also, if you're gonna forget multiscale on dnite calcs you need to be using stealth rock in calcs
I think Landorus-Increate can have much better STABs than dark...
Talonbane (nice spelling dude) for Natural Gift with its STAB grass berry, then Acrobatics spam. OK makes sense.
Doesnt really help defensively and Keldeo isn't what you call "bulky" (well it has decent bulk 91/90/90).

 
I've only been playing recently, and something I find cool is Steel Talonflame. The main use it has is that, outside of ThunderPunch and mind-games with EQ, let it set-up on Dragonite with Bulk Up as long as Dragonite isn't boosted too much. You can also stop Dragonite from boosting along side you with Taunt - at best it gets +0 and at worst its at +2 (you Taunt as it DDs when it already has a DD up). It also dampers its Rock weakness, lets it resist Ice instead of being neutral or even weak to it, and makes it immune to Poison, something that makes Talonflame a very good Stallbreaker with Bulk Up + Taunt. In fact, it's usually a big wincon vs Stall because of this. Of course it has its issues - its now neutral to Fire and Fighting and it doesn't cover its existing weaknesses outside of Rock (I think). It also makes you 4x weak to EQ when roosting, which makes it tricky to set-up on DNite if they have it, but I personally think Steel Talonflame is at least worth looking into.

EDIT: Zone is also a problem.

Another mon that's been great for me is Electric Lopunny. Electric gives me STAB on TPunch, which I originally thought would be the main selling point. However, it turns out the best thing about Electric Bunny is that, along with STAB TPunch, it no longer just dies to Flying-type priority!

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 102-121 (37.6 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 246-291 (90.7 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (Its not 100% of the time...yay?)
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 180-213 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (this is Stallbreak / Bulk Up)
+1 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 171-202 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dank Bunny. Ice is also cool, as STAB Ice Punch is useful vs Dragonite after mutliscale and as a strong STAB hit on Waterscor. Keep in mind though that it still can't "beat" it, depending on investment, but it does hit it really hard and can 2HKO'd non-physically defensive sets

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 210-248 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 266-314 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recover
 
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A hard hitting Knock Off is very nice in the meta and makes wallbreaking much easier. You would be surprised how few things actually resist Knock Off, and how much damage it does with basically no investment.
8 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 157-187 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still seems an odd choice to me, but that makes some kind of sense.

Poison can be slashed with Dark for a more powerful Sludge Wave, but all that extra power does is secure an OHKO on Clefable who takes between 80-90% anyways. Manaphy is already OHKO'd by Sludge Wave without STAB, and Altaria is OHKO'd by Earth Power anyways(though Sludge Wave will still OHKO without STAB if Fire).
Actually, Sludge Wave makes for a bizarrely good neutral STAB because most things that aren't running Steel either don't resist it or don't resist Earth Power. (Rock and Poison are both vulnerable to Ground, for one thing)

Grass is great for stallbreaking sets, and better than Dragon because you keep your Fairy resist and are still neutral to Dragon, which is important when it comes to handling things like Mega Altaria. You still get the Water/Electric neutrality too. The worth of a mon is not decided by how much damage it takes from Stealth Rocks, I really don't know why you keep using that as the standard for judging the quality of an additional typing. There is more to the meta than making sure you are Rocks-proof, explore it sometime.
When you expect a Pokemon to switch in and out a lot it kind of matters how vulnerable it is to hazards, particularly Stealth Rock. Talonflame is a Pokemon very prone to switching in and out, and since its preferred attacks have recoil damage even shenanigans with HP values so you won't die to 2 Stealth Rock switches aren't very effective.

A Pokemon that expects to lead or switch in one time and then go for a sweep/some form of setup isn't necessarily as bothered by being doubly weak to Stealth Rock, but I've not seen anyone run Talonflame that way in Hidden Type and honestly I don't expect to see it run that way.

In particular, Talonflame is a troubleshooter that needs to be able to switch in anytime on whatever you need it for. The opponent being able to just switch in and out the thing Talonflame is an "answer" to, and thus KO Talonflame, is a pretty awful thing.

It's also strange that you think I'm using Stealth Rock weakness-level as a metric for how good a typing is, when I've been commenting on benefits and downsides of various sorts, one of which is the degree of Stealth Rock weakness. I routinely comment on "immune to Toxic", "immune to ground hazards", "immune to Sandstorm", "immune to Spore and Powder moves" even when the Pokemon in question mostly doesn't care about a given mentioned thing. ("Fire Clefable cannot be Burned" when describing a Magic Guard variant, say)

Keldeo being Ground means you can come in on the Electric types that used to threaten you like Zapdos, Rotom-Wash and Thundurus(lacking Grass Knot), as well as be immune to T-wave. There is no better typing for Keldeo; its movepool is incredibly shallow, but despite that it's still an incredibly hard-hitting threat. Another thing to note is that being weak to Grass is mostly irrelevant when the biggest Grass type in the meta does not want to switch in on you.
Fair enough.

I do find it odd that Electric isn't on there at all, though. Complete Paralysis immunity, resist Electric, and resists Flying are all relevant.

Also later stuff makes it a little more questionable that the Grass weakness is "mostly irrelevant": you're of the opinion that Grass Grass Knot Thundurus (One of the Pokemon you name as Ground typing letting Keldeo deal with, in fact) is an A-level Pokemon.

It's a Rocks setter that can hit Dragonite very hard with Ice STAB, and like I stated before, having a hard hitting Knock Off(harder than Bisharp's) is valuable and hits a lot of things for a lot of damage. It also has Freeze Dry to get around things like Hippowdon

16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 395-468 (94 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Double Fighting weakness doesn't matter when the only Fighting types are Scrafty and Lopunny. The first one being absolutely destroyed by Earthquake, the second you would have 0 chance of beating 1v1 anyways unless you're sashed. And if you're sashed you still don't care about double Fighting weakness.
Because no Pokemon ever ran Fighting coverage in the history of Pokemon.

A double weakness makes it a lot more likely that random coverage can wipe you out in one shot, even with solid bulk, and there are plenty of Pokemon that run Fighting coverage. Not only that, but it opens up Mamoswine to Fairy attacks, which is not thrilling when multiple important Pokemon are Fairies using Fairy moves. A powerful Knock Off is neat, but if it's not doing anything really amazing like turning a 2HKO into a 1HKO, is it worth all that vulnerability? Especially since Mamoswine is a slow Pokemon with no way to get faster.

Why are you assuming no Pokemon ever runs anything except STAB attacks, exactly?

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 315-374 (88.9 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

A misconception you seem to have is that "every mon must have an impeccable defensive typing, even the offensive ones!", when really playing offense in this meta is about adding typings that help you get around the things that would normally check you. Not every mon needs to have as few weaknesses as possible and the most resists possible.
Solid defensive typings that allow you to ignore coverage or laugh at theoretical counters are especially helpful to offensive pokemon. Steel Dragonite isn't exactly leaning on some massive increase in firepower to be an S-rank threat, is it? Nor do I think impeccable defensive typing is vitally important for all Pokemon -I just don't see the point in taking a typing that opens up new weaknesses for a limited or nonexistent benefit. That calc against Gliscor, for instance, shows that non-Grass Thundurus will 2HKO it without STAB, and in fact OHKO it with Nasty Plot-backed Grass Knot, where the STAB-boosted variant is only a small shot at KOing it -and besides, most Gliscor are Specially Defensive, in which case even with Stealth Rock that isn't a shot at a OHKO. Why exactly is this worth vulnerability to Poison, Fire, and a double weakness to Ice? I'd rather take a stronger defensive typing (Steel is of course the obvious pick) and use Nasty Plot to setup and send Gliscor crying home.

Alternatively, I'd run Ice Thundurus, accept that I'm a pack of weaknesses, and do stuff like hit Dragonite with STAB Hidden Power Ice. Yeah, Hidden Power Ice is almost never hitting on a double weakness in Hidden Type, but it's still better coverage than Grass is, overall, and has more reliable BP than Grass Knot.

Wall Dragonite? Not much sadly...there are only checks really, no real good counters

(Quote by Ghoul King)
Dragonite is generally brought to a screeching halt by...

-Flying Heatran. Even carrying Thunderpunch or the like only goes so far to mitigate this. (Special Rain Dragonite not so much, but it's probably obvious that it's coming) Uh yeah have fun with that :
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 262-310 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


-Grass Heatran. If Dragonite is carrying Earthquake, it can put some pain in on Heatran, but if it isn't it's got nothing it can do at all. (Special Rain Dragonite can get in some damage, but not nearly as well as against Flying Heatran) Have fun with that too
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 418-494 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


-Quagsire, sort of. (It can't Toxic it, but it can Burn it and then either push through a lot of PP or pass the buck off to some other, non-Unaware wall, or to an Unaware Clefable) You got me. But if I have Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, your Quagsire can do nothing :D
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


-Non-Dragon Skarmory is unafraid of anything except bizarre, Fire Blast carrying sets, and any set carrying Fire Blast specifically to counter Skarmory is much, much less threatening. And then it can Whirlwind out Dragonite just fine. Nah...max def, max hp Skarmory =
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO - Sorry but once you Whirlwind, you won't survive twice (with SR).


-Water Hippowdon. Draco Meteor is basically all Dragonite can carry to seriously hurt it (No you can't carry Hidden Power Grass, because that means you're Grass Dragonite and hilariously bad. lol x8 Ice weakness), and it again severely compromises Dragonite's ability to threaten other things. Well you will have to run whirlwind :
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 142-168 (33.8 - 40%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


-Water Gliscor, sort of. With good prediction you can Knock Off Dragonite's HP down to Roosting levels and then catch it with Earthquake and kill it. Ice Punch is all Dragonite can carry to hurry things up, and honestly it's probably not worth it -Dragon Claw is almost as powerful and doesn't involve compromising Dragonite's utility. Good luck with that ;D
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- 53.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 226-267 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 271-321 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+5 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 316-373 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 361-426 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So in about 5~ turns of DDancing +6 will kill. Now lets see Gliscor's damage rolls.

With an item -
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 70-83 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Without an item -
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 47-56 (12.1 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
Earthquake -
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 218-258 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


-Water Ferrothorn, or Ghost Ferrothorn. Not perfect, particularly the latter if Dragonite carries Fire Punch or the like, but just the ability to throw out Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc means Dragonite really really doesn't want to stay in on it when it can't even take it down without substantial boosting. Yeah I guess.

-Steel Mega Slowbro. +6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steel Mega Slowbro: 137-162 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Just spam Calm Mind and Slack Off and then murder Dragonite. Or spam Scald and Slack Off. Carrying Thunderpunch or Earthquake helps, but it still requires heavy boosting to work, +6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as in Mega Slowbro has to let you get all the way to +6 to actually start dying if it gets you Burned with Scald. And even then, it can potentially Slack Off through the attacks until Dragonite Burns to death, or with good prediction get a hit in when Dragonite Roosts. Not even getting into the possibility of Iron Defense Mega Slowbro, which laughs at any Dragonite that isn't carrying Special. Until you run out of PP :D

I'm just saying, Clefable works too as long as there is no Earthquake (Ugggh another check not counter)...
Steel Mega Slowbro: Dragonite has PP too. Why are you ignoring that?

Gliscor: Why are you calcing bulky Dragonite?

Hippowdon: It's Roar, and of course you're running it. I didn't specify because, yeah, obviously it can't do a lot to kill Dragonite.

Skarmory: So Skarmory blows it out, heals on whatever comes in, and repeats it whenever convenient? How is that not a check?

Grass Heatran: Superpower Dragonite is an incredibly bad idea and I've never seen anyone run it.

Flying Heatran: Fair enough.

Quagsire: Burning Dragonite and forcing it to lose its boosts and get Heal Belled is still a win for Quagsire's team, especially if they can take advantage of the situation to kill the cleric or something.
 
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Hippowdon: It's Roar, and of course you're running it. I didn't specify because, yeah, obviously it can't do a lot to kill Dragonite.
Just came in here to say that Hippo also gets Whirlwind. For some reason.

Also Bulky DD is a thing, although I don't think the spread is or should be 252 HP and 252 Attack with Adamant. The main problem with Gliscor is that most of the time its kind-of set-up fodder. When you're best-case scenario is winning a 50/50 things aren't good (you don't even always win - Bulky DD can live an EQ and just starts another 50/50).
 
Hippo and Skarm can phaze Dragonite out but can't do shit to it. If WW brings in something that can do a shitload of damage to Skarm or Hippo, then they are forced to switch out without recovering, so they are not very good checks.

Mega Slowbro has to fish for burns with Scald or do something weird like be Dark type with Foul Play to stop Dragonite. I'd call it a shaky counter.

Gliscor as mentioned above requires a lot of prediction to beat Dragonite with Roost which makes it unreliable.

Flying Heatran is killed by Thunder Punch and Grass Heatran is killed by EQ.

Quagsire beats Dragonite without cleric support, but if Dragonite has cleric support, Quagsire theoretically needs to get 9 burns out of 24 Scalds, or in other words you would need to burn 37.5% of the time with a move that burns 30% of the time on average.

Edit: Holy shit. This is my 500th post and I didn't realize it.
 
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OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Serperior is really mediocre, especially when it's mono-attacking.

It's average defenses really don't justify trying to add a defensive typing to it, especially at the cost of valuable coverage. The reason that Manaphy does Grass well is because it has literally unresisted coverage outside of some incredibly niche things like Fire Ludicolo and Steel Toxicroak. This allows it to hit basically anything in the meta for huge damage after a Tail Glow, and there really isn't much that enjoys switching in on it. Meanwhile, even offense has switchins for this thing:

Steel Dragonite and Fire Mega Altaria immediately threaten Serperior's life, and all it can really do is Glare on the switch and then run away to a more valuable teammate who can actually manage these threats. Fire Magnezone, as mentioned above, can come in on this and get an easy free kill. Heatran and Tangrowth come in on this for free, heck half the A rank mons beat this thing 1v1. The best thing it does is Glare, and revenge kill Water/Grounds(who can just switch into a counter to Serperior because there are so many). If you want Paralysis, just use Thundurus. Prankster Twave, Nasty Plot, and actual coverage moves that it can opt to have STAB for. Not to mention the capability to go mixed.

Hence late game sweeper. For the majority of a match it comes in to taunt or paralyze. When it has a window it has a jolly good time cleaning up after it's various checks/counters are gone, as I stated earlier. Serp can come in on water Gliscor, water Hippo, Chansey, ghost TTar, ground Keldeo, water Dragalge, water Lando-t, electric Gard, etc...and either force them out or start spamming leaf storm. If Heatran, Dnite, Zone, and Altaria are out of the way there aren't many other 4x or 8x grass resists running around. The fact that Dnite, Heatran, Zone, and Altaria are all checked or beaten by the same mons makes it a lot easier to get Serp in and going than you think.


Oh and one more thing, mons don't exactly need huge defenses to tank Resisted hits. The point of using steel typing over coverage is to decrease weaknesses. I'd much rather have one 4x weakness, one 2x weakness, one 4x resistance, EIGHT 2x resistances, and one immunity than to have a BP 60 move to hit something on the switch that an entirely different member of a team should be dealing with.
 
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Electric Mega Gardevoir murders Clefable unless it's running Steel, and potentially even then, Poison Scrafty murders Clefable no matter what set it's running so long as it doesn't horribly mis-predict, Dragalge will Sludge Wave non-Steel variants, Grass Mega Charizard Y will Solar Beam Water variants and Fire Blast anything else, Grass Manaphy annihilates it with Energy Ball as previously covered... it hard-walls some important Pokemon, but Clefable doesn't "beat 99% of the meta". It just reliably beats some of staples.

I'm also not following the logic that Clefable being unable to reliably beat Dragonite=Dragonite is broken, particularly when paired with an assertion amounting to "Clefable is broken, and that's a good thing".
Ok at this stage I'm pretty much done with discussing Clef but I had to respond to this because you misunderstood me so incredibly bad (understandable I did word it mediocre at best).
I was saying it appears that Dragonite seems to beat 99% of the meta ( not Clefable lol ), as no one had really posted any sets saying "this pokemon is a good Dragonite check". And as someone else pointed out half of your Dragonite checks are flawed so I still believe Dragonite devours 99% of the meta, as only a slight handful can even think about taking it on.

The next bit I bolded I'm not even sure where you got that from but ok just to clarify, I don't think that "Clefable being broken is a good thing" lol. I'm kinda hurt that you think I'm stupid enough to think Clefable is broken and that anything being broken is good.

Oh and just to point it out Steel Clefable murders Poison Scrafty.
 
Unfortunately again this time, I'm not having much time to play this. I don't know if it's a curse or something.

Anyway, I noticed that there are a lot of Steels. A LOT. So my HP Fire Magnezone Suggestion still stands. Or generally good things that can beat steels like Mamoswine. Do note that Dark Mamoswine can beat Water Gliscor, Ghost Chansey, Grass Manaphy and Steel Clefable with Freeze Dry / Knock Off / Earthquake.

Its speed is definitely disappointing. SW support could fix that.
 
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While a bit obscure, I'm fairly certain Steel Dusclops walls Dragonite. Even at +6 the only move of Dragonite's that can OHKO it is Fire Punch. And at that point, you've pretty much lost anyway. Unless your opponent predicts your switch in, odds are you can bring in Dusclops and get off a Will-o-Wisp. Duscops pretty much laughs at any Dragonite not carrying Fire Punch. Also, not that these calculations are for Adamant Dragonite, though the majority I've seen are either Jolly or have some HP investment as well.

Without any boosts:
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 74-88 (26 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 29-35 (10.2 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 29-35 (10.2 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 37-44 (13 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 44-52 (15.4 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO
At +2:
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 146-174 (51.4 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 59-69 (20.7 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 59-69 (20.7 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 73-87 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 88-104 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO
At +4:
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 220-260 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 88-104 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 88-104 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 132-156 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 110-130 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
At +6:
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 294-346 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 175-207 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 117-138 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 117-138 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 147-173 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
While a bit obscure, I'm fairly certain Steel Dusclops walls Dragonite. Even at +6 the only move of Dragonite's that can OHKO it is Fire Punch. And at that point, you've pretty much lost anyway. Unless your opponent predicts your switch in, odds are you can bring in Dusclops and get off a Will-o-Wisp. Duscops pretty much laughs at any Dragonite not carrying Fire Punch. Also, not that these calculations are for Adamant Dragonite, though the majority I've seen are either Jolly or have some HP investment as well.
So Dusclops burns Dragonite... and then sits there helplessly as Dragonite boosts to +6 and 2HKOs it with Fire Punch or Earthquake. Not to mention Dragonite can just hit Dusclops on the switch and Dusclops has no reliable recovery so it will eventually get worn down.
 
How does that beat Bulky SubDance Dragonite? It doesn't. It's true that Dragonite is a pain to deal with.
It can't. But in the nearly 100 games I've played, I've never seen a SubDance Dragonite, do I never really thought of it tbh. Though if I'm not mistaken, SubNight would run something like DD/Sub/Roost/Attack. And that severely limits it. If it chooses a Dragon attack, it is walled by every Fairy. If it chooses Fire, Heatran stops it. If it chooses Steel, Dusclops is only 4HKO'd at +6. So it could pretty easily just Disable Iron Head. If it chooses Ground, flying types stop it.

So Dusclops burns Dragonite... and then sits there helplessly as Dragonite boosts to +6 and 2HKOs it with Fire Punch or Earthquake. Not to mention Dragonite can just hit Dusclops on the switch and Dusclops has no reliable recovery so it will eventually get worn down.
Dusclops learns Disable as well. So Dragonite can't boost to +6. And it has some form of recovery in Pain Split, albeit not very good. Using WoW/Diable/Pain Split/Night Shade can take care of Dragonite to a fair extent. Send them both in at the same time and odds are Dusclops will win. Burned Dragonite at +4 only 3HKOs Dusclops with Fire Punch. It can use Pain Split to recover, or Night Shade to attack.
 
A few things I'd like to nom are as follows:

Steel / Water Mega Sableye to A- or B+
Though seemingly not as potent in this meta, Mega Sableye is still an epic boon for stall teams and Magic Bounce is even better now given that keeping hazards away makes it so much harder for the opponent to work out your typings. Both typings are great defensively and add decent resists while only 2 extra weaknesses, (also note that Steel makes it neutral to Fairy and immune to poison giving to only 2 weaknesses, 4 immunities and a bucket load of resistances).

Fighting / Electric Victini to B+
Again as always Victini is an epic wall breaker with great high BP moves and solid coverage. In this meta I'd say that it is actually sitting at a pretty good benchmark as far as speed goes in the unboosted meta. Fighting gives Victini STAB Fighting to make Brick Break finally do some sweat damage. It also makes Victini Neutral to rocks and Dark which is extremely well appreciated, as it is no longer destroyed by Pursuit, Sucker Punch and Knock Off abusers. Electric isn't my personal preference due to the 4x Ground weakness and lack of those key resists that fighting gives, but that STAB Bolt Strike is undeniably powerful and electric STAB is actually really strong in this meta.

Dark Mega Metagross to A-
Its 110 speed isn't quite is strong as I feel the speed benchmark is sort of sitting around 100 in this meta as that's all you need to out speed most threats unboosted. But this thing is still Mega Metagross and is now a sick Pursuit trapper. STAB Tough Claws Pursuit off of 145 Atk can be extremely hard for a lot of teams to play around given that it still forces a lot of switching. Also gets rid of the Dark and Ghost weaknesses but adds Fighting and Bug.

Steel / Ground Mantine to B-
This may be bias considering I for whatever reason really like Mantine but I feel that with the addition of Steel or Ground typing Mantine is really able to hold its own the majority of the time acting as a great Manaphy counter (between Toxic and Haze), Special wall and Defogger. Steel adds 0 weaknesses and gives some great resistances as well as 3 immunities for only 1 weakness. However Ground is also really strong as although gaining a couple weaknesses, it doesn't lose any resistances. You still get SR neutrality and 3 immunities, and of course lose that horribly 4x Electric weakness. Basically it is just a toss up between Whether you want an immunity to that 4x weakness, or less weaknesses and more resistances.

Lastly I've been mucking around with a gravity and of course Gravity is still REALLY good, and I've come up with this Porygon-Z set which may seem gimmicky but its actually been doing really well and I reckon it may actually fit in at B-.

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Tri Attack
- Agility / Zap Cannon
- Gravity

Basically with Gravity up there are countless things weak to ground, and although HP Ground only has 60 BP, with Adaptability taken into account it can still dish out some sweet damage (especially when it is super effective, aka 70% of the time). Ground / Normal with gravity up is actually sweet neutral coverage with Ground hitting all that resists normal outside of Ghost, and exceedingly few Ghost / Bug or Grass types running around. Agility is usually best for sweeping but Zap Cannon has respectable accuracy in Gravity and provides great utility for either Landorus to sweep or Porygon at a later stage.

P.S Also Ghost Pory should also be in the Bs somewhere. Given that Ground and Ghost fulfill very different roles it might be worth putting them in different ranks if one proves better than the other.
 
Lastly I've been mucking around with a gravity and of course Gravity is still REALLY good, and I've come up with this Porygon-Z set which may seem gimmicky but its actually been doing really well and I reckon it may actually fit in at B-.

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Tri Attack
- Agility / Zap Cannon
- Gravity

Basically with Gravity up there are countless things weak to ground, and although HP Ground only has 60 BP, with Adaptability taken into account it can still dish out some sweet damage (especially when it is super effective, aka 70% of the time). Ground / Normal with gravity up is actually sweet neutral coverage with Ground hitting all that resists normal outside of Ghost, and exceedingly few Ghost / Bug or Grass types running around. Agility is usually best for sweeping but Zap Cannon has respectable accuracy in Gravity and provides great utility for either Landorus to sweep or Porygon at a later stage.
Unless my calculations are wrong, Landorus still deals more damage right.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 230-270 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 177-208 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd recommend using Landorus over it then. Poison Landorus with Earth Power and Sludge Wave is resisted by very few things. Plus Landorus outspeeds base 100 Pokemon which would otherwise deal a lot of damage to Porygon.
 
Landorus' Earth Power does more than Porygon's HP Ground, but Porygon's Tri-Attack does more than Landorus' Earth Power.
Its not about nuking everything with ground STAB its about getting extremely good neutral coverage on 2 adaptability boosted STABs.
Its by no means better than Landorus, hence a lower rank is fitting, but it can fulfil a very similar role on in Gravity to great efficiency. In fact it is a really good partner for Landorus as they share and break down each others weaknesses, similar to bird spam.
 
Well, HP Fire Technician Roserade sounds decent. Its HP Fire would have 135 BP. That's just a tad less powerful than a STAB Flamethrower and more powerful than STAB Feiry Dance.
 
A few things I'd like to nom are as follows:

Steel / Water Mega Sableye to A- or B+
Though seemingly not as potent in this meta, Mega Sableye is still an epic boon for stall teams and Magic Bounce is even better now given that keeping hazards away makes it so much harder for the opponent to work out your typings. Both typings are great defensively and add decent resists while only 2 extra weaknesses, (also note that Steel makes it neutral to Fairy and immune to poison giving to only 2 weaknesses, 4 immunities and a bucket load of resistances).

Fighting / Electric Victini to B+
Again as always Victini is an epic wall breaker with great high BP moves and solid coverage. In this meta I'd say that it is actually sitting at a pretty good benchmark as far as speed goes in the unboosted meta. Fighting gives Victini STAB Fighting to make Brick Break finally do some sweat damage. It also makes Victini Neutral to rocks and Dark which is extremely well appreciated, as it is no longer destroyed by Pursuit, Sucker Punch and Knock Off abusers. Electric isn't my personal preference due to the 4x Ground weakness and lack of those key resists that fighting gives, but that STAB Bolt Strike is undeniably powerful and electric STAB is actually really strong in this meta.

Dark Mega Metagross to A-
Its 110 speed isn't quite is strong as I feel the speed benchmark is sort of sitting around 100 in this meta as that's all you need to out speed most threats unboosted. But this thing is still Mega Metagross and is now a sick Pursuit trapper. STAB Tough Claws Pursuit off of 145 Atk can be extremely hard for a lot of teams to play around given that it still forces a lot of switching. Also gets rid of the Dark and Ghost weaknesses but adds Fighting and Bug.

Steel / Ground Mantine to B-
This may be bias considering I for whatever reason really like Mantine but I feel that with the addition of Steel or Ground typing Mantine is really able to hold its own the majority of the time acting as a great Manaphy counter (between Toxic and Haze), Special wall and Defogger. Steel adds 0 weaknesses and gives some great resistances as well as 3 immunities for only 1 weakness. However Ground is also really strong as although gaining a couple weaknesses, it doesn't lose any resistances. You still get SR neutrality and 3 immunities, and of course lose that horribly 4x Electric weakness. Basically it is just a toss up between Whether you want an immunity to that 4x weakness, or less weaknesses and more resistances.

Lastly I've been mucking around with a gravity and of course Gravity is still REALLY good, and I've come up with this Porygon-Z set which may seem gimmicky but its actually been doing really well and I reckon it may actually fit in at B-.

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Tri Attack
- Agility / Zap Cannon
- Gravity

Basically with Gravity up there are countless things weak to ground, and although HP Ground only has 60 BP, with Adaptability taken into account it can still dish out some sweet damage (especially when it is super effective, aka 70% of the time). Ground / Normal with gravity up is actually sweet neutral coverage with Ground hitting all that resists normal outside of Ghost, and exceedingly few Ghost / Bug or Grass types running around. Agility is usually best for sweeping but Zap Cannon has respectable accuracy in Gravity and provides great utility for either Landorus to sweep or Porygon at a later stage.

P.S Also Ghost Pory should also be in the Bs somewhere. Given that Ground and Ghost fulfill very different roles it might be worth putting them in different ranks if one proves better than the other.
IMO:

Water Sableye (Mega) - A- ; only because Kl4ng's Water Sableye owned me ^^^
Grass/Electric Victini - B+ Energy Ball and Bolt Strike are extremely powerful. Grass takes out the SR Weakness. Bolt Strike is just powerful, but maybe Electric Kyurem-B is better. Fighting Victini - B Brick break? I think there are many more powerful fighting moves with better attack.
Dark Metagross (Mega) - B- Pursuit? IDK. Grass/Fighting/Ground Metagross (Mega) - A- I really don't use Metagross much. STAB Grass Knot, Hammer Arm, and Earthquake is pretty good. I don't know which one is better and I'm too lazy to find out.
Mantine is pretty good for beating Manaphy (as mentioned before). It can get off a haze and take out that potential. Maybe B/B+.
Porygon-Z ; I don't think Porygon-Z should set up Gravity, IDK about it. Seems OK. Ghost Porygon-Z - B+

Unless my calculations are wrong, Landorus still deals more damage right.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 230-270 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 177-208 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd recommend using Landorus over it then. Poison Landorus with Earth Power and Sludge Wave is resisted by very few things. Plus Landorus outspeeds base 100 Pokemon which would otherwise deal a lot of damage to Porygon.
I know this isn't realistic...
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 546-645 (181.3 - 214.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 710-837 (235.8 - 278%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hmm...ur right :D

252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 364-429 (120.9 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Not Resisted)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 355-419 (117.9 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Not SE)

Still Landorus > Porygon-Z IMO.

quote="DinaIsha, post: 6085530, member: 192587"]Well, HP Fire Technician Roserade sounds decent. Its HP Fire would have 135 BP. That's just a tad less powerful than a STAB Flamethrower and more powerful than STAB Feiry Dance.[/quote]

252 SpA Life Orb Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 224-265 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 224-265 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Same power...

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 199-235 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
About 10~% less powerful.

 
Ok at this stage I'm pretty much done with discussing Clef but I had to respond to this because you misunderstood me so incredibly bad (understandable I did word it mediocre at best).
I was saying it appears that Dragonite seems to beat 99% of the meta ( not Clefable lol ), as no one had really posted any sets saying "this pokemon is a good Dragonite check". And as someone else pointed out half of your Dragonite checks are flawed so I still believe Dragonite devours 99% of the meta, as only a slight handful can even think about taking it on.

The next bit I bolded I'm not even sure where you got that from but ok just to clarify, I don't think that "Clefable being broken is a good thing" lol. I'm kinda hurt that you think I'm stupid enough to think Clefable is broken and that anything being broken is good.

Oh and just to point it out Steel Clefable murders Poison Scrafty.
No, what people are showing is that Dragonite can carry some specific coverage move to counter some specific counter, at the cost of Roost/Substitute, a STAB, or Dragon Dance. (Usually Roost/Substitute) There's no 100% hard stop to every Dragonite build out there, but every Dragonite build has important weaknesses and they all struggle to at least some extent against certain kinds of foes, or are so sub-optimal a variant that it's not really a big deal that the given build is countered by different things.

Steel Clefable must be Physically Defensive Unaware to stop Poison Scrafty. Anything else -not Physically Defense or not Unaware or both- is Drain Punched out of the way. Scrafty can even take a single Moon Blast and survive, with zero defensive investment even if Clefable has max Special Attack EVs. (If it is also +Nature to Special Attack then it has a 43.8% chance of a OHKO. 12.5% against my Scrafty with its 60 HP EVs) Classically every Clefable I've fought has apparently not fit that exact specification, because I routinely 2HKO them with Drain Punch.

While a bit obscure, I'm fairly certain Steel Dusclops walls Dragonite. Even at +6 the only move of Dragonite's that can OHKO it is Fire Punch. And at that point, you've pretty much lost anyway. Unless your opponent predicts your switch in, odds are you can bring in Dusclops and get off a Will-o-Wisp. Duscops pretty much laughs at any Dragonite not carrying Fire Punch. Also, not that these calculations are for Adamant Dragonite, though the majority I've seen are either Jolly or have some HP investment as well.
I would like to point out that Dragonite can and does run Earthquake as coverage, which is noticeably stronger than Fire Punch. But these calcs are cool, and Dusclops isn't irrelevant. Aegislash-typing is pretty good.

So Dusclops burns Dragonite... and then sits there helplessly as Dragonite boosts to +6 and 2HKOs it with Fire Punch or Earthquake. Not to mention Dragonite can just hit Dusclops on the switch and Dusclops has no reliable recovery so it will eventually get worn down.
Dragonite is incapable of producing a Substitute durable enough to absorb a Night Shade without breaking, and in fact is reliably 4HKOed by it before a Burn.

Dark Mega Metagross to A-
Its 110 speed isn't quite is strong as I feel the speed benchmark is sort of sitting around 100 in this meta as that's all you need to out speed most threats unboosted. But this thing is still Mega Metagross and is now a sick Pursuit trapper. STAB Tough Claws Pursuit off of 145 Atk can be extremely hard for a lot of teams to play around given that it still forces a lot of switching. Also gets rid of the Dark and Ghost weaknesses but adds Fighting and Bug.
... now I want to make a team with that.

Unless my calculations are wrong, Landorus still deals more damage right.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 230-270 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 177-208 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd recommend using Landorus over it then. Poison Landorus with Earth Power and Sludge Wave is resisted by very few things. Plus Landorus outspeeds base 100 Pokemon which would otherwise deal a lot of damage to Porygon.
I'd just like to point out that Sheer Force is only a small fraction weaker than Adaptability's boost, so it's a pretty easy thing to guess whether a Sheer Force Pokemon will outdamage an Adaptability Pokemon, if they both have STAB. (Such as in this case)

Well, HP Fire Technician Roserade sounds decent. Its HP Fire would have 135 BP. That's just a tad less powerful than a STAB Flamethrower and more powerful than STAB Feiry Dance.
Flamethrower is 90 BP, Technician Hidden Power is 90 BP. You need to go back a couple generations for 95 BP Flamethrower.

Honestly, Roserade is irritatingly fragile and struggles with Speed, and even aside from the fact that we're talking Technician here it doesn't get Chlorophyll to make up with Sun support. (Which is too bad, because Weather Ball) Maybe with some Sticky Web support it would be OK, but even then there are a lot of Pokemon immune to grounded hazards in Hidden Type... though that does mean Sticky Web is a good way to scout stuff like Flying vs Ghost Tyranitar, now that I think about it. (Mind, so's Stealth Rock, but it's still interesting)

Grass/Electric Victini - B+ Energy Ball and Bolt Strike are extremely powerful. Grass takes out the SR Weakness. Bolt Strike is just powerful, but maybe Electric Kyurem-B is better. Fighting Victini - B Brick break? I think there are many more powerful fighting moves with better attack.
Grass doesn't resist Rock. It might actually be a relevant defensive type in Standard if it was.

Victini also gets Focus Blast for a semi-competent Fighting move.
 
For S Rank:


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Grass Manaphy is amazing in Hidden Type. Great typing, 100/100/100 bulk, as well as access to practically un-resisted coverage and the coveted Tail Glow allows Manaphy to make quick work of any wall that stands in its way. 100 is a nice speed tier in Hidden Type, and anything faster is usually too frail to even want to switch into an attack. The new found STAB in Energy Ball rips through the plethora of Ground/Waters in the meta, and completes the un-resisted coverage. Giving this thing even one free turn could spell the end for you.
 
Has anyone ever considering giving Chansey Bug Typing?
Pros:
Fighting and Ground resistance most noticably, they are pretty great to have on chansey if you ask me. Grass is alright too I guess?
Cons;
Rock and Flying weakness, specialy the rock due of SR, kinda suck. Fire weakness is still acceptable due of most of the fire moves being special based.

In a stall team, that usualy carry defog/spin and have the support, I'd imagine bug chansey to have some potential niche, specially since there's lot of steel going about, it could be pretty easy to pair up.
 

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