No Scald Ladder

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Real interesting, I always heard some joke speculation about this happening but I didn't think anyone'd have the balls to actually give it a test run anytime soon. Far as a tier goes without Scald, before I always said "eh why not just keep the move" but I'm willing to bet that most people who argue to keep Scald are kinda of the mindset that the move is equally abusable by both players with little opportunity cost (outside of Guts users). On the other hand I won't dismiss it as not being a "broken move" either. I'm kinda on the fence, and honestly could go either way with how it could go if the possibility of it being removed was actually being considered.

Given that Scald makes bulky Water-types such a quintessential force on the defensive side in UU, seeing a tier where physical attackers don't have to worry about being punished 150% of the time by them will definitely be very interesting, though at the same time I feel like the metagame isn't going to change drastically. If anything it's just one less thing physical attackers have to worry about dealing with, and at the same time, players using bulky Water-types now have to actually play smart rather than just rolling the dice against a potentially threatening Pokemon and hoping RNGesus answers their prayers.

Some dudes are probably gonna use Toxic more often, others will probably carry Ice Beam for the Dragon/Grass-types that use Water-types as setup bait. I can expect to see more defensive Arcanine/Rotom-H, probably some Entei. Idk how it's gonna turn out for this ladder but it'll be interesting, for sure.

TL;DR: What everybody else said before me

edit: But the real question y'all should be asking...IS SUICUNE STILL BROKEN OR NAH?!

 

[Chronobreak]

I guess you could call it a...
burn.

Ooohhhh gonna need a lum berry for that

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Petition to rename the normal UU ladder "UU (Better Have Burn Heal!)"

 

[Nysyr]

ITS GATR TIME

 

[radianthero156]

i can't seriously fathom how there are people actually arguing against the scald ban. can't you people see how dumb it is? "dragon resists water, but let me send in my mono attacking water type to counter this dragon". wtf? thats literally as fucked up as using non-scarf tyranitar to counter gengar in OU.

that said, played a few games on the suspect ladder and it RULES. it reminds me of the dpp times, where water resists were good switch-ins to water types :). the lack of scald also makes it a lot easier to trace a path to a 100% win in most games, which is what good players do (and how they should be recompensated for being good).

edit @ below: what do you mean by implying it does not restrict team building? actually, most of your arguments are shaky:
-there are plenty of pokemon that can tank water attacks, but scald cripples them really badly (salamence, feraligatr, haxorus, chesnaught)
-there are only like 4 viable clerics in the tier, and none of them are viable on fully offensive teams
-the only viable users of guts/water absorb are heracross, vaporeon, seismitoad (?), and lum berry is consumed after its use, and you can easily get statused twice
-actually the 12.5% per turn passive damage is pretty huge even for special attackers like hydreigon, it wears them down pretty fast and puts them in the KO range of many moves

 

[TheTabKey]

Kind of happy to see it go but at the same time it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be ;u;

It's a damn powerful move because of that burn chance and basically the same reasons people have been saying for a while now.

But to say it restricts team building? That's going a bit far IMO.
Scalds aren't difficult to predict.
There are plenty of Pokemon that:
-can tank water attacks
-carry Heal Bell/Aromatherapy
-have Guts/Water Absorb/carry Lum Berry
-and special attackers don't necessarily even mind the burn.

Idk still happy to see it go because of the burn chance alone

 

[Shrug]

Btw, what stops Gatr now?

Ignoring the fact that "this banworthy thing can't go because it would make this other thing broken" is never valid for a suspect test, Scald doesn't "stop" Gatr any more than the 30% chance of a Focus Blast miss "stops" a Landorus sweep. Gatr is dissuaded from setting up by the presence of Scald, but it is not stopped by it. You're essentially flipping coins to see if you stop Gatr or not - that isn't a reflection on how Scald is beneficial to the metagame.

 

[slated]

The discussion around scald revolves around, and always has revolved around, defensive pokemon having a move to use that gives them completely unneeded offensive pressure. Take a pokemon like Suicune, for example- this is a pokemon that shouldn't be able to toss around a move that has almost a 1/3 chance of crippling a pokemon on the other team, due to its defensive capabilities. There will always be moves such as Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Will-O-Wisp, but those moves differ from moves like Scald and Sacred Fire, in that they:
a) have a good pool of pokemon immune to them: Electric/Ground types in terms of Thunder Wave, Steel/Poison types in terms of Toxic, and Fire-types in general in terms of Will-O-Wisp
b) they require a good deal of prediction or skill in order to use them: when using Will-O-Wisp on Arcanine, it is a move used to cripple switchins. This means it requires a good deal of prediction to use, since the Arcanine user has to predict which pokemon should be switching in and decide whether using Will-O-Wisp is worth it.

Scald is not like these moves. Scald is a move which has no "immunities" apart from Water Absorb/Storm Drain, and obviously we have a very limited pool of those. Even Fire-types that could dodge a burn obviously can't switch into scald, and take the idea that it's an 80 base power move which means there is literally no drawback of using it over, say, Surf, for pokemon like Suicune and Vaporeon. They exchange 10 BP for a completely bullshit virtually 1/3 chance to inflict a status effect on the opponent.

I don't think it can be debated that at least 50% of the reason that bulky waters are so popular is because of the move; look at any bulky water in the game, and their moveset will 99% of the time include scald. There's no risk in including it; it gives you a chance to cripple an opponent every time you use it. It also creates a shitload of bullshit scenarios: Let's take SD Mega Abomasnow, which is what I believe creates the most realistic scenario of how unfair and restrictive Scald is. SD Mega Abomasnow should, in every scenario, barring hax, be able to beat Suicune, Swampert, and Vaporeon. It can easily take Water STABs and eat up Ice Beams. However, because of the completely bullshit nature of how Scald is, Mega Abomasnow is cheated out of beating these pokemon in 1v1 scenario because it gets burned by scald, losing 1/8 health per turn, halving its attack in half and drastically decreasing its survivability. Scald burns can't even be regarded as "hax", just because they happen so ridiculously often.

So in conclusion, my opinion is that a scald-less metagame is a much more enjoyable metagame, where scenarios are not created where a pokemon cannot check another because almost 1/3 of the time it is crippled for the rest of a match by the other pokemon's 80 BP STAB move. These scenarios are simply unfair and not enjoyable to the players, and the metagame without scald is just much more enjoyable (as evidenced by the side-ladder, for those of you who have had a chance to play it.)

 

[RowDog]

Although I see this as quite an interesting ladder, I sure do hope that this doesn't lead to a ban of the move. Pokemon has always been a game of haxy bullshit full of crits and AIDs anyway, and for us to be saying that a 30% chance is enough to break an 80 power move is a bit ridiculous. Admittedly, it can and does seem a lot more common than that, though in those cases that the opponent is relying on a Scald burn that never happens and leads to there loss as they fail to stop a sweep. The odds are still not (supposed to be) in the Scald user's favour if they require a burn.

And the move doesn't come without a fair swag of viable counters, that make it not as spammable as some people seem to be arguing. There can be serious repercussions if used at the wrong time in the case of when it burns a Guts user such as Heracross or Machamp, which is now likely to break your bulky water's shit or anything else you have to switchin, or weakened Water Absorb/Dry Skin users that got a free heal. Outside of this there are many other answers to the move. Natural Cure mons like Blissey, Shaymin and Roserade care little for Scald. Quite a few Rest users are also able to eat a Scald burn. Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are quite common on the tier, and the chances are against getting the burn again straight away. Reuniclus don't give much of a fck for Scald. And there are cases where it burns something that you didn't want to burn (outside of guts users) which may be much harder to take down because you can't Toxic them anymore or something along those lines.

In the end:
Does this ladder sound like a cool and fun idea that will be an interesting way to look at the tier? Yes
Is scald broken? I would definitely think not

 

[Faka12]

I like the idea of a metagame without scald-burns tbh, because I don't have to worry about switching my physical attacker on a burn at all. Even though I still think that it's just part of the game like crits, those attacks which have 95% accuracy or less, etc. I've played a little bit in this tier and I have to say Sub DD Feraligatr is a dangerous threat, because he can set up a sub for free on any bulky water like Vaporeon, Suicune, Empoleon (if they don't run Roar), Alomomola, almost any water type. But as I said, I like the idea and I want to see how this ends.

PS: Sorry for my catastrophic english lol

 

[infamy]

if were gonna ban scald can we ban focus blast missing
seriously, scald is no where near as broken as the precedent for banning moves. yes, it resembles ohko moves and swagger in that it takes the game out of the players hands, but whereas those moves had no viable checks and counters and for this reason were banned, scald has a lot of checks. lum berry, special attackers, water absorb. these would all still be run if scald were banned. in fact, i think scald is healthy for the tier on that it benefits more defensive playstyles, as from what i can tell, the no scald ladder is largely hyper offensive. it looks for now like banning scald disallows defensive playstyles, though this may change in the future. i wouldnt consider that a balanced metagame, as opposed to the standard ladder which allows many playstyles to function effectively.

 

[radianthero156]

if were gonna ban scald can we ban focus blast missing
seriously, scald is no where near as broken as the precedent for banning moves. yes, it resembles ohko moves and swagger in that it takes the game out of the players hands, but whereas those moves had no viable checks and counters and for this reason were banned, scald has a lot of checks. lum berry, special attackers, water absorb. these would all still be run if scald were banned. in fact, i think scald is healthy for the tier on that it benefits more defensive playstyles, as from what i can tell, the no scald ladder is largely hyper offensive. it looks for now like banning scald disallows defensive playstyles, though this may change in the future. i wouldnt consider that a balanced metagame, as opposed to the standard ladder which allows many playstyles to function effectively.

the only difference is that i can chose not to use focus blast, but not being scalded is up to my opponent. also, by the same logic ohko moves can be checked by pkmn with sturdy, and swagger can be checked by pkmn with own tempo/magic bounce/lum berry! as i said above, those mons you mentioned aren't good scald counters. and what do you mean by banning scald disallows defensive playstyles? what kind of defensive team is this that relies on a 30% rate to counter relevant threats?? a team consisting of maggron/defog mence/aromatisse/shedinja/curse lax/roserade can pretty much cover every relevant threat a HO team can throw vs it, without resorting to scald. in fact, scald gone only makes that team better since now mence/lax switch-in freely against mono attacking bulky waters!
edit: lol i'm not offended or anything, this is just supposed to be a debate!

 

[Malin]

well
all of sudden virizion looks so viable

ive never played on scaldless tier, so it might been interesting

 

[infamy]

cant quote because im on mobile, but im sorry if i offended you. that was not my intent. regardless, you make some very good points in your post. what i stated was simply my first impression, and it may be entirely wrong. as for my statement about defensive teams, what i meant was that scald frees up teambuilding for those archetypes by providing them with an easier way to check physical attackers, and that in a very balanced tier it being banned results in, from my experience, a very offensive metagame. once again, sorry if i annoyed you, that was not my intent. this was simply my first impression of this ladder.

 

[Karxrida]

When I first heard about this ladder, I was opposed to the idea of banning the move since I thought it wasn't a huge deal. Then I realized I was a fucking moron because I did a battle later on hoping I would get a burn to kill a Serperior switch-in (I didn't burn it and I won anyway, but that's besides the point). I honestly don't see why this shouldn't be banned on the same basis as Swagger; it's clearly uncompetitive, lacks any sort of strategy (click Scald and hope you Burn), and the only counterplay can still get you crippled. I really hope the other tier leaders try this ladder and take this into consideration for future policy.

 

[Wanka]

I actually like the fact that we are making it a seperate ladder. Its just something cool I can mess around with but if I want to ladder in a more stable scenario I can still play OG UU. Threats like gatr and Abomasnow are really going to emerge in the no scald ladder. Hyper offense is also going to get a slight buff now that it does not have to worry about scald burns making it even better than it already was. I would also watch out for sharpedo as an emerging threat in the no scald ladder as well as you can now simply just crunch a suicune or any other fat water to death. Here's to a ladder full of swords dancing, dragon dancing and loads of bopping n_n.

 

[GULLY]

Im not going to make an elaborate post bc I think this whole idea is stupid
-The power creep has been insane since Scald, Scald keeps this creep in check
-Physical attackers have the advantage already over special, High Base on Average better move selection
-Banning scald will make offense more advantageous, stall/ balance less
-Yes it is centralizing but its is a healthier center than the Physical Sweeper centralization we'ed see if it was banned
-Scan Bald is a joke btw so what makes this not

 

[baddjordan]

scald and sr op? yes. balance 6v6 at any costs. give the people what they want. ban pls.

 

[NighthawkL06]

I strongly disagree with the ban on scald

Although scald can be a bit centralizing in hindering all physical attackers, I must say that it completely hinders many phisical walls on the tier

DD and SD spam is huge now, there are more common and simply the tier becomes just who can set up first

The downsight of keeping scald is that annoying crocune matches that take forever and all other pokemon that just spam it

I think a better solution to it would be to do the same as Baton Pass, only one Scald per team, that will hinder the spam a bit or maybe come up with another solution, but straight up banning it completely is insane as the metagame shifts completely and becomes centralized on setting up


EDIT: I have faced 5 team that run 6 physicall attackers, SD Lucario, Scarf moxie salamence, hone claws aersodactly, mega swmapert, moxie honchkrow, DD Feraligatr, Mega beedrill among other physicall attackers, is just ridiculous

 

[GOthee]

Scald, only thing strong or unbalanced if you want to call it that way is the burn chance and average power. Its one of the stronges move in the game, but if you are approaching a ban of only a move, it is going in a wrong direction, it realy nerf water types, and buff most physical attackers, which would make them undoubtedly stronger than Special attackers. I hate when my pokemon get burned by scald burn chance, but lets accept it we know he traded te ability to burn for a less powered attack that wont ko a pokemon most of the time and the burn isnt always 100 percent .

 

[Schpoonman]

I think you'll find that the vast majority of these teams spamming 6 set-up sweepers are actually really really bad if your team is even halfway decent. We still have good physical walls, we don't NEED Scald to shut these Pokemon down. We still have Suicune, we still have Mega Aggron, we still have Alomomola. Stop letting bullshit HO sweep you, think about your team composition. If your team is run through by SD Lucario, use a Pokemon that shuts it down. If the issue is multiple set-up sweepers, well, welcome to Hyper Offense, it's designed to completely overwhelm the opposing team. If one Pokemon with Scald shuts down an otherwise freight train, then what does that say about Scald?

 

[Lum Berry Alakazam]

Waking up to see this made me ecstatic. Scald has been a broken part of the metagame for a huge amount of time.

The fact that it's totally luck based destroyed a bit of the integrity of the game imo, it was simply click scald and hope for a burn/rage if you didn't get it.

UU is infested with bulky waters, scald being their main utility move. To see it banned would a godsend to hyper offense and a crippling body blow to stall.

My favorite part about this is that it keeps CroCune from over centralizing the metagame.

CM + HP made its SPD untouchable after a few boosts, and base 115 defense combined with scald to cripple anything that tries to set up made it hard to deal with in that aspect as well.

With scald banned, we'll see a rise in less popular mons like Mega Abomasnow, which couldn't previously deal with waters because of scald, and we'll see less of the more common, arguably broken bulky waters.

 

[RowDog]

Wow how some of the pro scald ban posts have deteriorated. Not that all of the pro-ban have bad arguments but some are just plain old childish, look at above.

To see it banned would a godsend to hyper offense and a crippling body blow to stall.

If this is your mindset behind banning Scald that it is not proper reasoning behind a ban. The goal behind bans is to try and make a balanced meta where different playstyles can all work effectively. It's not about "I fcking hate vsing stall lets nerf it to shit", which I feel that some people's arguments here are.

Firstly, after playing a bit of the ladder I found that offensive teams are heavily favoured to the point that it is rather absurd. Dragon Dancers and Swords Dancers are everywhere and it is much harder to effectively check these. That is because without Scald bulky waters lose the vast majority of their viability. The fact is, water isn't a very good offensive typing to begin with, especially when there is no investment in offences. Lots of mons easily abuse bulky waters for setup opportunities when the threat of Scald isn't there, a threat that I find healthy. As GULLY put quite well, power levels have gone up considerably since gen 5 to now, and Scald is an important balancing factor to keep that in check. This is just a direct nerf (and a rather unnecessary one) to defensive teams, as the majority of offensive waters are just as well off running Hydro Pump. Bulky waters fail to threat switch-ins making them too abusable, and as can be seen on the new ladder, that they were a very important part in keeping many of the tiers threats in check, which are now running rampant. The threat of Scald was always a risk for both sides. If you over-rely on the burn chance you will get screwed quite a few times when you rely on 30% chance. Likewise the opponent always had to weigh up the risk of a potential Scald burn and determine whether it was worth it before switching or not switching.

And again, Scald had many viable answers to it. Guts, Natural Cure, Rest, Lum Berry, Substitute users that resist water, Heal Bell, Aromatherapy, Water Absorb, Dry Skin, Magic Guard, Storm Drain, SpAtkers that just don't really give a fck as well as Pokemon that would prefer a burn over other statuses that become harder to check once it has the status on it and another can't be applied.

The bulky waters are an important part of defensive playstyles and help to keep the tier in check, not break it. The "No Scald Ladder" is incredibly unbalanced right now and although fun is not a healthy tier like the one UU used to aim for in the days where kokoloko ruled where we fought for all playstyles to be viable.

It really isn't that hard to play around, isn't as spammable as something as Knock Off and really shouldn't need to be banned.

 

[RowDog]

(Sorry for double post but I think this warrants its own)

I know that this isn't a suspect test or anything more than an experiment, though it seems that quite a few people are in favour of pushing further for a ban.

Before any action is taken on potentially suspecting/banning scald, I suggest that we firstly test its arguably most broken user: Suicune. On all other mons Scald pretty much only helps in disruption and an extra side effect, that can often be removed by Heal Bell/Aromatherapy and I hardly ever find more game-breaking then any other move. Suicune however is the only mon I could see as pushing this to make it potentially broken, as with it its sweeping abilities are greatly increased in giving itself the support it needs to setup and seems to be the most centralising user of the move, as really no other Scald users are specifically prepared for. I'd much rather see Suicune get suspected before action is taken on Scald which just cripples a whole lot of bulky waters and has a significant impact on lower tiers as well, and I know quite a few people seem to be against Suicune anyway.

 

[Patrick1088]

I'm not really sure how to feel about this. Scald has been a mainstay since Gen 5. I can see the argument that the 30% chance of burn can let it come down to who burns who first in a bulky water vs. bulky water as the last two mons. But, the 30% chance of burn is just another calculation of the game IMO. Is it frustrating when you have a sweeper at +2 and a scald burn ruins it for you? Of course.

Sacred Fire has a 50% chance of burn, but limited to just Entei and Ho-Oh. Sacred Fire alone is the sole reason why Entei jumped up in usage this generation. So, obviously spreading status while inflicting damage is important, as evidenced directly in Entei's case.

Now, the one thing that I do agree with is that it is easy to just mindlessly click Scald; whether hitting for SE damage or inflicting burn. Some mons with Scald can easily be played around with and actually become set up fodder (Alomomola vs. any sub user for example). But, we are talking about the more prominent threats like Suicune, Mega Blastoise, Def Swampert, Empoleon, Tentacruel, etc...

But, it is such a key move on more defensive and balanced teams and this is almost exactly what is on the no scald ladder; HO teams with sweepers, especially dragons, coming out the wazoo. Top threats in the new ladder IMO are Mega Swampert, Mega Sharpedo, Haxorus, Feraligatr (biggest threat IMO).

I think No Scald streamlines games and makes them quicker and less stall-y, but it makes these top threats even harder to check now, especially if more than one are carried on a team. Most teams will not carry answers for both Double Dance Hax and DD Gatr.