Fire blast 2HKO's Amoongus
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Thank you for the update as always, looks great. I was, however, surprised that Garchomp wasn't raised. I saw some good posts from DarkNostalgia, -Clone- and Hacylon regarding the rise and don't remember reading any counter arguments (could have missed them). Was it just too late of a discussion and could happen next update, or is there another reason?
I know there wasn't much discussion on it, but if I recall correctly after the last update you asked us to discuss whether Mega Aerodactly should remain A- or not. Personally I have only used it a few times, but from facing it it seems underwhelming and not on the level of other A- mons. Is there any reason why it didn't drop?
It's been discussed a little bit before; but Magneton should go to C+ or below.
I know that because it was a recent nom there's no way it would have dropped this update and the rankings team are probably discussing it now but this thing has so little uses it's astounding it's below more consistent, unique 'mon like Cobalion and Tyrantrum. We all know why it's here so I'm not going to go into much detail - it's a Magnezone that has the ability to outspeed Talonflame and a few other 'mon with scarf that scarf Magnezone can't. I do not believe this to be a niche worthy of being anywhere near the B ranks at all.
For one thing, there's the obvious fact that it's outclassed at every single other thing by Magnezone unless it's scarfed. There are very few scenarios you would use this and it is, essentially, an Other Options version of Magnezone. Magnezone can use Specs, Air Balloon, hell it's own Scarf set actually isn't half bad. You only run Magneton if you really find yourself needing to outpace Talonflame, which in this meta is a very niche use and realistically will not fit into many team builds over Magnezone. As has been echoed before, the main reason to use it was to have another check to Greninja, a centralizing threat that has since been banned and hence is no longer relevant. With Greninja gone, less teambuilds have a need for Ton over Zone and hence I believe it's current rankings to be a relic.
As a second point, Magneton has no versatility whatsoever. I know that at face value this is absolutely no reason to not raise a mon or drop it - just look at S-rank Keldeo and it's scald spam. But the problem is that Magneton does the exact same thing as Magnezone without the extra power and bulk and is incredibly predictable. Magnezone at least you have to guess if it went for power with specs or speed with scarf; with Magneton you know why your opponent chose it and you know it's going to be scarf because otherwise it wouldn't be seeing use. Unless someone actually innovates a way to actually make Eviolite Magneton (lol) good anytime soon; the problem is that in team preview you feel safer seeing Ton over Mag because you know exactly what it's going to do and you very likely have a way to stop it without even trying.
Finally, the fact that steel-trapping has become so irrelevant. A lot of steel-types now carry shed shell to escape Magnezone which automatically makes Magneton worse; but Magneton is affected even moreso. Let's say you're in a situation where steel-removing is either done, impossible or is not needed. Magnezone will still put in work. It has some damn nice power, bulk, typing and coverage so that even if it won't steel trap it'll still do something. Magneton you will always find yourself desperately wishing it had more power and bulk to do something -- to be short, Magneton's inferiority means it is affected a lot more by team match-up. In addition, as a simpler point, if Magnezone is dropping for steel-trapping being harder or less appreciated then there's no reason Magneton shouldn't drop as well as the exact same problem affects it.
As a concluding point; while a point has been made that Magneton is essentially the same sort of Pokémon as Magnezone and should be ranked close to it for this reason, I do not find this an accurate comparison. It's fair enough for Lati@s where they each have their valuable versatile viable (kurona the alliteration goddess) uses and are able to differentiate themselves from each other. They are arguable equally viable and have very unique niches. Magneton is not an alternate option to Magnezone; it is a downright inferior one with no outstanding difference that with the meta changes sees little to no reason to be used. While outspeeding Talonflame and a few other things is nice, every time I've used it I really find myself wanting that extra bulk and power Magnezone brings to the party.
I know that because it was a recent nom there's no way it would have dropped this update and the rankings team are probably discussing it now but this thing has so little uses it's astounding it's below more consistent, unique 'mon like Cobalion and Tyrantrum. We all know why it's here so I'm not going to go into much detail - it's a Magnezone that has the ability to outspeed Talonflame and a few other 'mon with scarf that scarf Magnezone can't. I do not believe this to be a niche worthy of being anywhere near the B ranks at all.
For one thing, there's the obvious fact that it's outclassed at every single other thing by Magnezone unless it's scarfed. There are very few scenarios you would use this and it is, essentially, an Other Options version of Magnezone. Magnezone can use Specs, Air Balloon, hell it's own Scarf set actually isn't half bad. You only run Magneton if you really find yourself needing to outpace Talonflame, which in this meta is a very niche use and realistically will not fit into many team builds over Magnezone. As has been echoed before, the main reason to use it was to have another check to Greninja, a centralizing threat that has since been banned and hence is no longer relevant. With Greninja gone, less teambuilds have a need for Ton over Zone and hence I believe it's current rankings to be a relic.
As a second point, Magneton has no versatility whatsoever. I know that at face value this is absolutely no reason to not raise a mon or drop it - just look at S-rank Keldeo and it's scald spam. But the problem is that Magneton does the exact same thing as Magnezone without the extra power and bulk and is incredibly predictable. Magnezone at least you have to guess if it went for power with specs or speed with scarf; with Magneton you know why your opponent chose it and you know it's going to be scarf because otherwise it wouldn't be seeing use. Unless someone actually innovates a way to actually make Eviolite Magneton (lol) good anytime soon; the problem is that in team preview you feel safer seeing Ton over Mag because you know exactly what it's going to do and you very likely have a way to stop it without even trying.
Finally, the fact that steel-trapping has become so irrelevant. A lot of steel-types now carry shed shell to escape Magnezone which automatically makes Magneton worse; but Magneton is affected even moreso. Let's say you're in a situation where steel-removing is either done, impossible or is not needed. Magnezone will still put in work. It has some damn nice power, bulk, typing and coverage so that even if it won't steel trap it'll still do something. Magneton you will always find yourself desperately wishing it had more power and bulk to do something -- to be short, Magneton's inferiority means it is affected a lot more by team match-up. In addition, as a simpler point, if Magnezone is dropping for steel-trapping being harder or less appreciated then there's no reason Magneton shouldn't drop as well as the exact same problem affects it.
As a concluding point; while a point has been made that Magneton is essentially the same sort of Pokémon as Magnezone and should be ranked close to it for this reason, I do not find this an accurate comparison. It's fair enough for Lati@s where they each have their valuable versatile viable (kurona the alliteration goddess) uses and are able to differentiate themselves from each other. They are arguable equally viable and have very unique niches. Magneton is not an alternate option to Magnezone; it is a downright inferior one with no outstanding difference that with the meta changes sees little to no reason to be used. While outspeeding Talonflame and a few other things is nice, every time I've used it I really find myself wanting that extra bulk and power Magnezone brings to the party.
Simply overlooked. I'll edit the post later when we vote on that. Thanks.
These two defensive pieces aren't really up to B caliber. Quag has really fallen off and I believe it was ranked as high as it was when Char-X was king, and that's not really the case anymore. Mandi on the other hand has a pretty small niche as an ok Gross check, but it actually loses to Meteor Mash after Rocks and where it is usually a Defogger it is a less than stellar answer. It's also hurt by how much teams prepare for Sableye, as a lot of that prep also screws Mandi pretty hard. More Diancie, Altaria and Clefable around doesn't bode well for Mandi. I also think Alomo is a better defensive piece, so moving up Alomomola and dropping the two above is probably a good idea.
Mandibuzz should drop to B- / C+
As some people have said before me, Mandibuzz kinda sucks right now. As a defogger, it faces lots of competition from mons such as Zapdos which also checks Lando-I, Lati@s, and Skarmory. Defoggers on stall teams are also not really appreciated that much do to how effectively mega sableye can keep hazards off it's own side of the field. A rise in the usage of many fairies such as Altaria and Diancie have also been bad for it, as they can easily threaten it out or just set up on it.
Tyranitar Mega should drop to C+
Tyranitar Mega is hardly used atm and for good reason. It faces tons of competition from it's base forme, which can pretty much do everything Tyranitar Mega can do except run DD / RP sets, while also not taking up the mega slot. Speaking of mega slots, Tyranitar also has a huge opportunity cost involved with using it. A DD set faces tons of competition from pokemon such as altaria, zard x, and gyarados, while an RP set faces lots of competition from Pokemon such as RP Diancie and RP Lando-i. Pokemon such as Keldeo, Lando-I, Mega Zor, and MLop have all seen decent usage and are all fantastic checks / counters to mega ttar. While resisting brave bird, mega ttar is weak to other common priority moves such as mach punch, aqua jet, and bullet punch. Mega Ttar is also rarely seen on sand teams, as mega altaria is usually a better option, and normal ttar can hold smooth rock, giving more turns to excadrill to sweep. It's bulk is astronomical, but it's typing leaves much to be desired, leaving it weak to common fairy-, water-, fighting-, steel-, and ground-type moves.
tl;dr, Mega Ttar faces tons of competition from it's base form, other dders and rock polishers, many of it's checks and counters have become increasingly popular, weak to common priority moves make it easy to be revenge killed, and although it's bulk is fantastic, its typing leaves it weak to many common attacks. So yeah, imo, drop mandibuzz and ttar to B- and C+ respectively.
As some people have said before me, Mandibuzz kinda sucks right now. As a defogger, it faces lots of competition from mons such as Zapdos which also checks Lando-I, Lati@s, and Skarmory. Defoggers on stall teams are also not really appreciated that much do to how effectively mega sableye can keep hazards off it's own side of the field. A rise in the usage of many fairies such as Altaria and Diancie have also been bad for it, as they can easily threaten it out or just set up on it.
Tyranitar Mega should drop to C+
Tyranitar Mega is hardly used atm and for good reason. It faces tons of competition from it's base forme, which can pretty much do everything Tyranitar Mega can do except run DD / RP sets, while also not taking up the mega slot. Speaking of mega slots, Tyranitar also has a huge opportunity cost involved with using it. A DD set faces tons of competition from pokemon such as altaria, zard x, and gyarados, while an RP set faces lots of competition from Pokemon such as RP Diancie and RP Lando-i. Pokemon such as Keldeo, Lando-I, Mega Zor, and MLop have all seen decent usage and are all fantastic checks / counters to mega ttar. While resisting brave bird, mega ttar is weak to other common priority moves such as mach punch, aqua jet, and bullet punch. Mega Ttar is also rarely seen on sand teams, as mega altaria is usually a better option, and normal ttar can hold smooth rock, giving more turns to excadrill to sweep. It's bulk is astronomical, but it's typing leaves much to be desired, leaving it weak to common fairy-, water-, fighting-, steel-, and ground-type moves.
tl;dr, Mega Ttar faces tons of competition from it's base form, other dders and rock polishers, many of it's checks and counters have become increasingly popular, weak to common priority moves make it easy to be revenge killed, and although it's bulk is fantastic, its typing leaves it weak to many common attacks. So yeah, imo, drop mandibuzz and ttar to B- and C+ respectively.
Why did Mega Pinsir and Gyarados drop?
Also yeah, Garchomp too.
Also yeah, Garchomp too.
I definitely disagree with dropping Quagsire. Sure, Mega Charizard X isn't as common as it once was, but it's still a prominent threat in the tier, and Quagsire is one of the absolute best counters to it. I see how Hippowdon and Quagsire are comparable (they are both bulky grounds after all), but Unaware gives Quagsire a niche in OU over hippowdon. Sure, Hippowdon can check Mega Charizard X, but in the process it has to lose between 65 and 75% of its health, which obviously isn't ideal. Quagsire, on the other hand, always takes a maximum of 42% from Jolly Charizard X, and thus can continually stall it out, and end up winning while having a high amount of HP. Additionally, Swords Dance Bisharp is a very threatening Pokemon right now, and Quagsire is, again, one of the best answers to it. Sure, Hippowdon can check it, but again, it loses a big chunk of its HP in doing so, which obviously cripples hippo for the rest of the match. It's much superior never to be able to get 2HKOd and instead constantly recover to victory. Additionally, Mega Scizor, Roost DD Mega Altaria, and BD Azumarill can use Hippowdon as setup bait, whereas they are stalled out and easily defeated by Quagsire. Now, as for a comparison to Clefable, sure they both are unaware walls, but the pokemon they beat are different. For example, yes, both beat SD Talonflame, but only Quagsire beats CB Talonflame. Additionally, Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, and Scizor, by virtue of their typing, all easily crush Clefable, while fearing the sight of Quagsire. Obviously I'm not saying that Quagsire is overall on the level of an A ranked Pokemon or an A+ ranked Pokemon, but there are very relevant scenarios when you'd want Quagsire as your bulky ground, and when you'd want it as your unaware 'mon. Furthermore, unlike some other C ranked or B- ranked Pokemon, Quagsire isn't specifically geared for one thing; it covers a very large amount of Pokemon, including DD Altaria, GK-less Metagross, BD Azumarill, unaware CM Clefable, Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Air Balloon Excadrill, Garchomp, Gyarados, Mega Manectric, Tyranitar, Mega Aerodactyl, Jirachi, and Raikou (just to A-).
Overall, Quagsire covers a large amount and a unique set of Pokemon, and is able to distinguish itself from Hippowdon and Unaware Clefable enough to justify its use on many stall teams. Cresselia is also currently in B, and while it has to compete with other bulky Psychic-types, like Quagsire has to compete with Hippo and Clef, Cress's usage is justifiable because it walls Lando-I and beats Mega Sableye, just like Quagsire's usage is justifiable because as a bulky groun it doesn't let itself get setup on, and as an unaware user it beats Steel-types and more powerful physical Fire-types. For their niches on stall teams, I see both as perfect fits for the B rank.
Overall, Quagsire covers a large amount and a unique set of Pokemon, and is able to distinguish itself from Hippowdon and Unaware Clefable enough to justify its use on many stall teams. Cresselia is also currently in B, and while it has to compete with other bulky Psychic-types, like Quagsire has to compete with Hippo and Clef, Cress's usage is justifiable because it walls Lando-I and beats Mega Sableye, just like Quagsire's usage is justifiable because as a bulky groun it doesn't let itself get setup on, and as an unaware user it beats Steel-types and more powerful physical Fire-types. For their niches on stall teams, I see both as perfect fits for the B rank.
I'll answer the reasoning for M-Gyarados and M-Pinsir for now.
M-Gyarados: M-Gyarados dropped from the competition as a Dragon Dancer in comparison to Mega Altaria, the necessity that is needed to secure a sweep effectively in our meta-game, and when discussing and analyzing the A+ ranked pokemon it was agreed upon that its effectiveness, presence in the metagame, along with the support needed is more along the lines of A ranked Pokemon and not A+. The opportunity cost of using Mega Gyarados or Gyarados was also a factor in the decision as well, seeing as how Gyarados doesn't take the mega slot while still posing a serious threat for teams and as such provides more freedom in team-building with the luxury of Gyarados + a free mega.
M-Pinsir: Usage doesn't equate to viability but the fact that Mega Pinsir for a brief time dropped to UU and is now sitting in BL is a sign that its effectiveness and presence in the meta-game is not what it was during the XY days. This is important to note, because its low usage in the meta-game means that people are choosing other megas who have a better match-up with the overall meta in terms of consistency such as Mega Metagross. It's still a threat on its own under the right circumstances but these circumstances have become harder and harder to come by in a similar vein to M-Gyarados as such it is being dropped to A- for the time being.
M-Gyarados: M-Gyarados dropped from the competition as a Dragon Dancer in comparison to Mega Altaria, the necessity that is needed to secure a sweep effectively in our meta-game, and when discussing and analyzing the A+ ranked pokemon it was agreed upon that its effectiveness, presence in the metagame, along with the support needed is more along the lines of A ranked Pokemon and not A+. The opportunity cost of using Mega Gyarados or Gyarados was also a factor in the decision as well, seeing as how Gyarados doesn't take the mega slot while still posing a serious threat for teams and as such provides more freedom in team-building with the luxury of Gyarados + a free mega.
M-Pinsir: Usage doesn't equate to viability but the fact that Mega Pinsir for a brief time dropped to UU and is now sitting in BL is a sign that its effectiveness and presence in the meta-game is not what it was during the XY days. This is important to note, because its low usage in the meta-game means that people are choosing other megas who have a better match-up with the overall meta in terms of consistency such as Mega Metagross. It's still a threat on its own under the right circumstances but these circumstances have become harder and harder to come by in a similar vein to M-Gyarados as such it is being dropped to A- for the time being.
I'll put in some nominations
Rhyperior from B- to C+ I would most likely run Hippowdon over Rhyp right now in the ORAS meta. In XY, what Rhyperior had over Hippo was being a better Mega Pinsir check, but now Mega Pinsir is much rarer than it was before, so that niche doesn't matter as much now. Hippo on the other hand has reliable recovery which is a huge boon to being able to come in on physical attackers, as well as being able to check some threats Rhyp can't, like Bisharp and Mega Lopunny. I just feel like there isn't much of a reason to run Rhyperior as a defensive ground mon anymore, since Hippowdon just provides more utility in beating pretty much more threats, having reliable recovery, and providing sand support if needed.
I agree with Mandibuzz to B-, it's an ok mon but it doesn't provide much defensive utility other than checking Gengar, Landorus-I(shaky), and some weak grounds and psychics. It's an ok defogger and has taunt and knock off which are good against defensive teams/slower mons, and foul play is good to not get set up on by physical set uppers. While I did list some good pros, they don't really make Mandi on par with other B mons. Also Zapdos is a B- defogger, so I feel like both should be in the same rank.
I don't think Quagsire should drop, it's fine in B. It's one of the few mons that can switch in and beat BD Azumarill 1 on 1, (others are unaware clef and Mega Venu) and that's pretty important for stall/defensive teams. Also at the same time being a really good Bisharp counter even after you defog on it, so any defogger + Quagsire is pretty good as you don't have to worry about defogging on a Bisharp because it can't do anything to Quag. Also just totally not caring about Physical set up mons like SD Mega Scizor, SD Garchomp,DD Mega Charizard, as well as messing up volt switchers (Raikou, Mega Manectric, Magnezone) to deny them momentum is pretty invaluable to defensive teams, and just having scald and toxic to burn/toxic switch ins, makes Quagsire at least a B ranked mon in my book. I've been using Quag for a while now and it never lets me down. Keep Quag B :)
That's all for now, I feel the strongest about Quag because that mon is pretty underrated, I would argue for a raise, but just don't drop him
Rhyperior from B- to C+ I would most likely run Hippowdon over Rhyp right now in the ORAS meta. In XY, what Rhyperior had over Hippo was being a better Mega Pinsir check, but now Mega Pinsir is much rarer than it was before, so that niche doesn't matter as much now. Hippo on the other hand has reliable recovery which is a huge boon to being able to come in on physical attackers, as well as being able to check some threats Rhyp can't, like Bisharp and Mega Lopunny. I just feel like there isn't much of a reason to run Rhyperior as a defensive ground mon anymore, since Hippowdon just provides more utility in beating pretty much more threats, having reliable recovery, and providing sand support if needed.
I agree with Mandibuzz to B-, it's an ok mon but it doesn't provide much defensive utility other than checking Gengar, Landorus-I(shaky), and some weak grounds and psychics. It's an ok defogger and has taunt and knock off which are good against defensive teams/slower mons, and foul play is good to not get set up on by physical set uppers. While I did list some good pros, they don't really make Mandi on par with other B mons. Also Zapdos is a B- defogger, so I feel like both should be in the same rank.
I don't think Quagsire should drop, it's fine in B. It's one of the few mons that can switch in and beat BD Azumarill 1 on 1, (others are unaware clef and Mega Venu) and that's pretty important for stall/defensive teams. Also at the same time being a really good Bisharp counter even after you defog on it, so any defogger + Quagsire is pretty good as you don't have to worry about defogging on a Bisharp because it can't do anything to Quag. Also just totally not caring about Physical set up mons like SD Mega Scizor, SD Garchomp,DD Mega Charizard, as well as messing up volt switchers (Raikou, Mega Manectric, Magnezone) to deny them momentum is pretty invaluable to defensive teams, and just having scald and toxic to burn/toxic switch ins, makes Quagsire at least a B ranked mon in my book. I've been using Quag for a while now and it never lets me down. Keep Quag B :)
That's all for now, I feel the strongest about Quag because that mon is pretty underrated, I would argue for a raise, but just don't drop him
I support moving Lucario down to C+ Rank. Hootie already addressed its main issues (4MSS and the prominence of faster E-Speed resist). Another issue I have with it is its horrible bulk, making it unable to witch in and setup against nearly everything in S and A+ rank. Its huge 4MSS and the prominence of faster E-speed resist are huge issues that limit Lucario's ability as a cleaner and make it a c+ mon in my eyes.
I've made a ton of post about it, but I believe regular scizor deserves a rise to B+. Its CB set is great in the current metagame, being able to trap the Lati twins, revenge killing important mons like Mega Altaria and Diancie rather easily, and providing a nice slow U-turn to bring in mons like Kyube safely. I don't think it should be any higher than B+ however due to its significant flaws, namely being easily checked by common mons like keldeo, Mega Manetric, and Heatran, as well as its subpar bulk.
I've made a ton of post about it, but I believe regular scizor deserves a rise to B+. Its CB set is great in the current metagame, being able to trap the Lati twins, revenge killing important mons like Mega Altaria and Diancie rather easily, and providing a nice slow U-turn to bring in mons like Kyube safely. I don't think it should be any higher than B+ however due to its significant flaws, namely being easily checked by common mons like keldeo, Mega Manetric, and Heatran, as well as its subpar bulk.
Ok, why are people suggesting mandibuzz drop all of a sudden i don't rly get it..
Mandi being dropped is really just kinda dumb. I'd expect that y'all would make it move up considering mmeta is going to be staying, and mandi being a pretty fantastic hard check to it, but hey that's why i'm here: to make arguments.
So basically, what i'm hearing is that a rise in the usage of fairies is whats screwing mandibuzz?
Well what about mega metagross????
I think the problem here is that some people are stuck on the suspect ladder where mmeta was banned. Up until now, every pokemon we suspected has been banned in gen 6, and all of a sudden the post-meta meta (pls don't hurt me) is irrevelant!
Yes, FAIRIES REALLY SHOULDNT' BE RISING! BECAUSE MMETA IS!
YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT CHECKS MMETA?
WELL JEE
MANDIBUZZ
So the whole metagame shift analysis thingy is out of the way, lets move on to mandibuzz itself.
check it out bitches
http://pastebin.com/thvDKcAy
Grab some popcorn lmao
So considering all of that, can you seriously blame mandibuzz for being an "ok Gross check?"
Fuck that's about as "ok" as a gross check gets jesus why is this thing still here.
Funny that, of all pokemon to compare mandibuzz as a defogger with, you choose zapdos, a shittier one.
I mean literally what stealth rocker does zapdos actually defog vs? It needs hp ice to touch garchomp/lando i, and if you're carrying heat wave to check bisharp (you practically need to) then the ONLY stealth rocker you're actually stopping is ferrothorn, which is hilarious.
Look at mandibuzz, on the other hand. It beats SR lando-i, SR SD lum chomp, Ferro (w/taunt), and Lando-t.
Those are pretty much THE 4 most common stealth rock users in the game, and mandibuzz beats them all 1v1 with roost/foul play/defog/taunt. Why do people think it's a shitty defogger again? No other hazard remover even comes close to beating all those.
And zapdos checking lando-i? lati@s? gimme a fucking break
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 252-300 (78.9 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If that wasn't enough, lati@s can also calm mind in your goddam face and you can do absolutely nothing back. How do you come up with these things its pretty amusing. Next you'll be that double dance cobalion is a groundbreaking set!
Lol you act as if mega sableye is the only thing a team needs to bounce back hazards. Lets see what happens when you build a stall team like you suggest: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-32448
In case you couldn't tell, that's an SPL match (r.i.p. that was a pretty bad loss for us)
If mah nigga had another way to remove hazards; if only. Too bad its not really appreciated; mega sableye effectively keeps hazards off by itself.
Now seriously, lets move onto mandibuzz itself.
What does this big fat burd check? Well, quite a few things.
I'm sorry, did I say a few things? I meant to say half the fucking relevant meta. and its all more or less with one spread too: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
its a shaky check on some of these, (mmeta, gengar, lando-i) but these pokemon are insanely difficult to check to start with and its quite amazing one pokemon can do it all in the first place
If anything, mandibuzz should be moving up to B+
EDIT @ a little below
I totally agree, a great example of #2 would be that team in ben gay's archive centered around dd gyara and dd mega tar; mega tar would pressure the opponent to use up thundurus leaving the opposing offense open to the other, and in general they both set up on each other's checks and counters (ttar setting up on lati, gyara setting up on keld, etc)
I think the main reason people started hating mttar was because of the gigantic spike in usage of scarf lando-t, however, this just forces mega tar to take on more of a supporting role as opposed to cleaning, focusing on breaking scarf lando-t and other physical stuff for teammates instead.
Of course, its never gonna be as good as it once was with mega lop around, but its still not total shit like people think it is.
---> B-
These two defensive pieces aren't really up to B caliber. Quag has really fallen off and I believe it was ranked as high as it was when Char-X was king, and that's not really the case anymore. Mandi on the other hand has a pretty small niche as an ok Gross check, but it actually loses to Meteor Mash after Rocks and where it is usually a Defogger it is a less than stellar answer. It's also hurt by how much teams prepare for Sableye, as a lot of that prep also screws Mandi pretty hard. More Diancie, Altaria and Clefable around doesn't bode well for Mandi. I also think Alomo is a better defensive piece, so moving up Alomomola and dropping the two above is probably a good idea.
Mandi being dropped is really just kinda dumb. I'd expect that y'all would make it move up considering mmeta is going to be staying, and mandi being a pretty fantastic hard check to it, but hey that's why i'm here: to make arguments.
So basically, what i'm hearing is that a rise in the usage of fairies is whats screwing mandibuzz?
Well what about mega metagross????
I think the problem here is that some people are stuck on the suspect ladder where mmeta was banned. Up until now, every pokemon we suspected has been banned in gen 6, and all of a sudden the post-meta meta (pls don't hurt me) is irrevelant!
Yes, FAIRIES REALLY SHOULDNT' BE RISING! BECAUSE MMETA IS!
YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT CHECKS MMETA?
WELL JEE
MANDIBUZZ
So the whole metagame shift analysis thingy is out of the way, lets move on to mandibuzz itself.
Well i had this prepared like a fucking month back before even the suspect thread was released b/c i was 99% positive it was gonna be
check it out bitches
http://pastebin.com/thvDKcAy
Grab some popcorn lmao
So considering all of that, can you seriously blame mandibuzz for being an "ok Gross check?"
Fuck that's about as "ok" as a gross check gets jesus why is this thing still here.
Surprisingly, plenty of people don't actually prepare for mega sableye using fairies. When it comes down to stall v stall, I actually haven't seen a lot of fairies on stall. The way people deal with mega sableye is often SD gliscor or SD talon, and foul play mandibuzz is crushing both of those. So if anything, it benefits from the preparation for sableye, as odd as it may sound.
Funny that, of all pokemon to compare mandibuzz as a defogger with, you choose zapdos, a shittier one.
I mean literally what stealth rocker does zapdos actually defog vs? It needs hp ice to touch garchomp/lando i, and if you're carrying heat wave to check bisharp (you practically need to) then the ONLY stealth rocker you're actually stopping is ferrothorn, which is hilarious.
Look at mandibuzz, on the other hand. It beats SR lando-i, SR SD lum chomp, Ferro (w/taunt), and Lando-t.
Those are pretty much THE 4 most common stealth rock users in the game, and mandibuzz beats them all 1v1 with roost/foul play/defog/taunt. Why do people think it's a shitty defogger again? No other hazard remover even comes close to beating all those.
And zapdos checking lando-i? lati@s? gimme a fucking break
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 252-300 (78.9 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If that wasn't enough, lati@s can also calm mind in your goddam face and you can do absolutely nothing back. How do you come up with these things its pretty amusing. Next you'll be that double dance cobalion is a groundbreaking set!
Lol you act as if mega sableye is the only thing a team needs to bounce back hazards. Lets see what happens when you build a stall team like you suggest: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-32448
In case you couldn't tell, that's an SPL match (r.i.p. that was a pretty bad loss for us)
If mah nigga had another way to remove hazards; if only. Too bad its not really appreciated; mega sableye effectively keeps hazards off by itself.
Now seriously, lets move onto mandibuzz itself.
What does this big fat burd check? Well, quite a few things.
I'm sorry, did I say a few things? I meant to say half the fucking relevant meta. and its all more or less with one spread too: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
its a shaky check on some of these, (mmeta, gengar, lando-i) but these pokemon are insanely difficult to check to start with and its quite amazing one pokemon can do it all in the first place
If anything, mandibuzz should be moving up to B+
EDIT @ a little below
I totally agree, a great example of #2 would be that team in ben gay's archive centered around dd gyara and dd mega tar; mega tar would pressure the opponent to use up thundurus leaving the opposing offense open to the other, and in general they both set up on each other's checks and counters (ttar setting up on lati, gyara setting up on keld, etc)
I think the main reason people started hating mttar was because of the gigantic spike in usage of scarf lando-t, however, this just forces mega tar to take on more of a supporting role as opposed to cleaning, focusing on breaking scarf lando-t and other physical stuff for teammates instead.
Of course, its never gonna be as good as it once was with mega lop around, but its still not total shit like people think it is.
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Hi no strong opinion on Lucario atm but there was a post a while ago against Lucario moving down to the C Ranks at all (by AM):
But of course this meta is shifting a lot and with the ranks being cluttered, well whatever lol.
Also I think Mandibuzz is actually still pretty decent. It's a good check to mega Metagross among many other relevant threats in OU because of its good bulk and such and it's really, really bulky and has a nice typing. Defog is also a nice aspect of it and it has Foul Play to have an offensive presence. It can remove hazards, wall a lot of shit, and do stuff like phaze or even stallbreak with Taunt and the like. B seems fine, maybe B-, but I don't think it should go lower than B-.
Quag is fine, Mega Sharpedo kinda sucks because it's weak and such, and Regular Scizor is actually quite good and I agree with Magcargo on the matter: CB Scizor is pretty good and CB Bullet Punch proves itself useful as does U-turn. Definitely a decent mon.
I don't have much to say but yeah just a few minor thoughts.
AM said:
But of course this meta is shifting a lot and with the ranks being cluttered, well whatever lol.
Also I think Mandibuzz is actually still pretty decent. It's a good check to mega Metagross among many other relevant threats in OU because of its good bulk and such and it's really, really bulky and has a nice typing. Defog is also a nice aspect of it and it has Foul Play to have an offensive presence. It can remove hazards, wall a lot of shit, and do stuff like phaze or even stallbreak with Taunt and the like. B seems fine, maybe B-, but I don't think it should go lower than B-.
Quag is fine, Mega Sharpedo kinda sucks because it's weak and such, and Regular Scizor is actually quite good and I agree with Magcargo on the matter: CB Scizor is pretty good and CB Bullet Punch proves itself useful as does U-turn. Definitely a decent mon.
I don't have much to say but yeah just a few minor thoughts.
I completely disagree with your Tyranitar assessment becasue the criteria you used to justify its weaknesses are not context-sensitive or relevant to how Mega-Tyranitar is actually utilized at the moment.
When considering opportunity cost (and the decision as to which Mega Dragon Dancer your team will be based around), it's only appropriate to juxtapose interchangeable/realistic options. M-Zard X, M-Altaria, and M-Gyara are all Mega Dragon Dancers, yes, but their usage is more general and their presence more generic. M-Tyranitar is not comparable to these three at all becasue it does not function best as a generic "slap it on your team and win" sweeper like the aforementioned pokes do. Sure, that alone can be called a weakness, but the fact is that M-DD Tar is a premier win condition on sand-based offensively oriented teams. There are two reasons why:
- 1.) M-DD Tar exemplifies the ideal sand-based offensive option. It's combination of raw power, powerful stabs, and fantastic bulk not only allow it to hit incredibly hard when set up, but also function as a soft-check to offensive threats when it is clear that a sweep is not likely. The other M-Dragon Dancers don't really have that sort of duality (minus Gyara to an extent); they function solely on the offensive spectrum and aren't much good for anything if they don't have a clear path to sweep. For that reason, saying that there is opportunity cost associated with M-DD Tar becasue of those other three is inapt.
- 2.) M-DD Tar provides advantageous situations for other teammates, offensively and defensively. Offensive, sand-based teams are not necessarily totally reliant on M-DD Tar for a win. Excadrill is an incredible cleaner with massive offensive potential that is only bolstered by the sand Tyranitar provides. Rock pokemon benefit from increased SDef while opposing weather teams struggle to maintain the gamestate when Tyranitar comes in. Totally worth mentioning that Tyranitar never loses this utility at any point becasue it always has sand stream, whether its Mega evolved or not. This is great becasue Altaria and Gyarados both lose important abilities as soon as they Mega evolve.
M-DD Tar is different than the other options right now becasue it has a unique combination of offensive potency and general utility. It supports its team on both ends of the spectrum much more so than Altaria, Gyarados, and Charizard; while it is true that you can't just slap him on your bog-ass-standard team and expect to slay, he functions more effectively than any other alternative when given the right environment.
hey just lost the rock paper scissors battle that was deciding who on the viability council was to talk about garchomp not being raised
viability council decided that a rank is perfect for garchomp, and that its "new" rh bulky set is not necessarily a reason for it to increase in viability from its sash/lum sets, but rather an adaptation to the ORAS metagame in an attempt to still be as viable as it once was late xy.
when looking at A+ rank, garchomp essentially doesn't match up to the metagame defining pokemon that are in said rank. when deciding what garchomp set to use (assuming you want lead with rocks, most relevant and viable way to use it), the player needs to decide whether you want the pkmn to either immediately pressure the opposing team, or provide a defensive utility with defensive rh. the versatility it has is a double edged sword in that you sacrifice one to get the other, and each matchup will benefit from something different.
mainly what we all decided is that the pokemon in a+ are philosophically meta-defining and extreme forces in the metagame, and the role that garchomp currently plays is far from up to snuff of what we define as such :3
viability council decided that a rank is perfect for garchomp, and that its "new" rh bulky set is not necessarily a reason for it to increase in viability from its sash/lum sets, but rather an adaptation to the ORAS metagame in an attempt to still be as viable as it once was late xy.
when looking at A+ rank, garchomp essentially doesn't match up to the metagame defining pokemon that are in said rank. when deciding what garchomp set to use (assuming you want lead with rocks, most relevant and viable way to use it), the player needs to decide whether you want the pkmn to either immediately pressure the opposing team, or provide a defensive utility with defensive rh. the versatility it has is a double edged sword in that you sacrifice one to get the other, and each matchup will benefit from something different.
mainly what we all decided is that the pokemon in a+ are philosophically meta-defining and extreme forces in the metagame, and the role that garchomp currently plays is far from up to snuff of what we define as such :3
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Rofl jesus christ Srn you're exaggerating Mandibuzz by a long shot hahaha. B+?!? (< _ >)
Half these things you mentioned are not even good checks in the context of the cores and playstyles associated with them. It gets gassed up as an M-Metagross check all the time when in practice it's an entirely different story. Mandibuzz NEEDS rocks off the fields in any real scenario where you're trying to use this as your M-Metagross check and dear god let's hope M-Metagross doesn't get that attack boost from Meteor Mash on the switch in. Yeah 1v1 if the player is ass then maybe you'll get lucky and "check half the meta" but Mandibuzz is so easy to take advantage of due to its linearity, SR weakness, and the fact it's basically a liability against the majority of fairy types in the tier. Also you spent 3/4 of the post nitpicking firehusky's post about zapdos, some meta-game stuff, something about your relation in SPL, and calling out on his case justifying it as an argument when it's just you rambling on and on about his post. His post might've been flawed as hell but what's really amusing is that you call him out, again, and then try to justify some ranking by once again exaggerating every single pro that is supposably associated with checking threats who beat you in the long run cause with that 1v1 set you have just become a liability to so many specially offensive wall-breakers. Mandibuzz might check some of the physically inclined meta-game but when the direction is putting more emphasis on special wall-breakers to bypass these physical walls, Mandibuzz being one of them primarily considering it's "checking half the meta", you can't be seriously telling me that this should be moving up in the ranking. That set alone you posted is a liability to that other half of the meta you conveniently forgot to mention and big surprise most of that is paired up with what Mandibuzz is suppose to be checking anyways so there goes that fantastic check on top of the inevitable rocks pressure that is put on Mandibuzz. Also I'm just baffled by this list you posted cause you're relying on the most beneficial of circumstances, full health mandibuzz, in the hopes that these are actually consistently checked by Mandibuzz the way you're describing it.
With that said don't give me that "oh it's in my nature to comment like this" like you did with your last call out on firehusky's Thundy-T post. You can address an argument without being a dick about it especially someone who's making an effort and trying to learn about the meta. It's already hard enough for new comers to get into the sub-forums I would expect better from a former pre-contributor of all people to set an example of not throwing people under the bus so chill out with your attitude, stop cherry picking irrelevant points, and get a grip of your ego.
Not appreciating the likes of Landorus-I really shouldn't be a hindrance by any means if we're talking about promoting a mon. Lando-I nearly destroys the entire meta with its coverage moves and is damn near impossible to switch into; nothing appreciates that thing. M-Venu does require some support to be used to its full potential but it really is nowhere near as bad as you're making it out to be. M-Gross is checked by bulky water mons that pair well with M-Venu, M-Scizor gets destroyed by hp fire (which is commonly ran on M-Venu), both zards are nowhere near as common as they once were and even then can easily be checked by teammates. Torn-T really isn't potent at all and can also be checked quite easily by nearly anything that can take its hurricanes and coverage moves of choice (either superpower, FB, or Heatwave for the most part).
Anyways the point i'm trying to make is that some of M-Venu's biggest threats are checked easily by 2-3 teammates and naming a list of problem mons for M-Venu shouldn't impede its promotion when we take into consideration that this game is played with 6 pokes that can alleviate eachothers cons.
lol you damn well know that standard M-Diancie consists of Protect, Moonblast, Diamond Storm, and earth power. The CM set in itself is a rarity and even then i've never in my life seen psyshock being run on that set.
M-Venu is one of the best fairy answers in the meta without question and that is more than enough of a reason it should move up imo
I'll admit I derped on Amoonguss tho. I should have specified that it checks DD M-Altaria, not its Special/mixed sets lol
I dun goofed lel. I forgot to specify that it only checks its DD set
We now have access to Custap berry and Skarmory is an amazing suicide lead. Pretty fast, bulky, sturdy, custap, taunt, phazer, spikes, SR & great typing allows it to set up on most of the meta, except faster taunts and magic bounce.
I agree with Srn about Mandibuzz. Although Mandi obviously isn't in her prime like she was in the XY era where she countered the omnipresent Aegi and a bunch of other top-tier mons that had very few other viable counters as well as being very effective against stall due to being able to utilize a decently fast Taunt with no Mega Sableye around to bounce it, the meta at present is in a state which Mandi can be very useful in. SD Talon, Gliscor and Mega Metagross in particular are some examples of current threats which can pose a pretty big issue for a lot of teams which Mandi deals with easily, and the best thing about Mandi is that it's pretty much a blanket counter/check to 90% of the physical meta, and it actually directly threatens them. I'm yet to have a game where Mandi hasn't secured at least 1 KO, while also putting in other work like Defogging and spreading status with Toxic (no Keldeo and Unaware Clef, you're not a free switch into Mandi). Defog in itself is also coming good again, because many teams are once again becoming hazard stacking focused and are packing spin blockers, bulky or otherwise, to try and punish greedy teams that rely on Rapid Spin to remove hazards. Defog can be exceptionally annoying for such teams and having it virtually guarantees that your team wont simply get chipped to death by that strategy. And with that said, Mandibuzz is clearly one of the best defoggers we have available in the tier, and is easily better than Zapdos.
Foul Play / Toxic / Defog / Roost, is also another good set which is quite annoying to face and shines both against balance and more offensively inclined teams, as then a lot of your classic special attacker switch-ins like Keldeo, Charizard-Y, Rotom-W, Unaware Clef and so on just get unexpectedly crippled as they come in and gives Mandi a lot of utility; being able to remove hazards, counter physical sweepers, and cripple special attackers + walls like Chesanaut, Quagsire, etc. Another bonus of Toxic is that it allows you to render rock setters like Rockey Helmet Garchomp, bulky Lando-T and Hippo completely and utterly useless, as when Toxic'd they can't even use their turn of setting rocks to gain any real momentum as they switch out when you Defog since they're now on a timer and Mandi can simply spam Defog all day until they kick the bucket from the passive damage.
Fully defensive Manidbuzz (a set which I can recommend, especially seeing as many Lando-I's are now dropping Focus Miss for another move like HP Ice, etc) counters things it really shouldn't be able to, even with rocks up:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mandibuzz: 150-177 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The 90% accuracy works in your favor too of course, and you can see that Mandi is going to be switching in and beating M-Meta most of the time, even with rocks up. Ice Punch isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO with rocks (and isn't used on a lot of Meta sets anyway). This is all putting aside the fact that Mandi is a damn-near unkillable monster when rocks aren't up, and it does a good job of keeping rocks off the field for itself, being fairly self-sufficient in that regard.
Overall, I feel Srn hit the nail on the head in saying that Mandi's position in the meta is being poorly evaluated by most people, and that now, of all times, would be a silly time to drop her because the meta right now is far more favorable to it than it has been since the start of ORAS. Mandi is comfortably B material.
Foul Play / Toxic / Defog / Roost, is also another good set which is quite annoying to face and shines both against balance and more offensively inclined teams, as then a lot of your classic special attacker switch-ins like Keldeo, Charizard-Y, Rotom-W, Unaware Clef and so on just get unexpectedly crippled as they come in and gives Mandi a lot of utility; being able to remove hazards, counter physical sweepers, and cripple special attackers + walls like Chesanaut, Quagsire, etc. Another bonus of Toxic is that it allows you to render rock setters like Rockey Helmet Garchomp, bulky Lando-T and Hippo completely and utterly useless, as when Toxic'd they can't even use their turn of setting rocks to gain any real momentum as they switch out when you Defog since they're now on a timer and Mandi can simply spam Defog all day until they kick the bucket from the passive damage.
Fully defensive Manidbuzz (a set which I can recommend, especially seeing as many Lando-I's are now dropping Focus Miss for another move like HP Ice, etc) counters things it really shouldn't be able to, even with rocks up:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mandibuzz: 150-177 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The 90% accuracy works in your favor too of course, and you can see that Mandi is going to be switching in and beating M-Meta most of the time, even with rocks up. Ice Punch isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO with rocks (and isn't used on a lot of Meta sets anyway). This is all putting aside the fact that Mandi is a damn-near unkillable monster when rocks aren't up, and it does a good job of keeping rocks off the field for itself, being fairly self-sufficient in that regard.
Overall, I feel Srn hit the nail on the head in saying that Mandi's position in the meta is being poorly evaluated by most people, and that now, of all times, would be a silly time to drop her because the meta right now is far more favorable to it than it has been since the start of ORAS. Mandi is comfortably B material.
Hawlucha dropping is unfortunate, but I understand why in the metagame getting bulkier that makes cleaning with it more difficult. I agree with Celticpride's though to drop Quagsire and Mandibuzz, as if Hawlucha is B Rank, then these two threats should be lower, for they are not on the same level of viability as Hawlucha.
So I'm gonna throw this one in here Scoliopede from B- to B Scoliopede is an amazing hyper offense lead and pretty much always gets a guaranteed 2 layers of spikes/toxic spikes up. Basically Scoliopede can also beat a some HO leads or make them weak enough to the point where they can't switch that mon in again due to endeavor. It also fairs really well vs a good chunk of balance and stall leads and can weaken one of their main walls or pokemon. He is a really good pokemon and I would want to see him move up with Azelf as I honestly think he does his job as or even more reliably then AZelf does.
Quagsire and Mandibuzz are in no way B- IMO, they're actually pretty good in this meta. Quagsire has a massive role on stall, to check setup sweepers. It is, IMO, just as good as Clef at it, and by using Quag you can use a Clef to do something else, like Magic Guard CM Clef wincon. Granted, Quag only really fits on stall, but it is extremely good on stall, checking threats like CharX and Bisharp. You might think doesn't Hippo do the same? It takes alot of damage in the process, while Quag takes alot less.
Mandibuzz might have alot of common checks, but it also checks alot. Foul Play beats alot of physically offensive mons Mandi can take a hit from, especially if they're boosted. It checks MMeta, Bisharp and many more. B- is underating a mon who can check alot of common threats just because fairies beat it. If MMeta had been banned, I'd agree, but while it's still around Mandi is fine where it is.
I agree with Lucario dropping; It has 4MSS, mediocre stats and no real reason to see usage over other fightings other than beating fairies. That isn't B- worthy when many others have poison jab/gunk shot or iron head for coverage options.
Mandibuzz might have alot of common checks, but it also checks alot. Foul Play beats alot of physically offensive mons Mandi can take a hit from, especially if they're boosted. It checks MMeta, Bisharp and many more. B- is underating a mon who can check alot of common threats just because fairies beat it. If MMeta had been banned, I'd agree, but while it's still around Mandi is fine where it is.
I agree with Lucario dropping; It has 4MSS, mediocre stats and no real reason to see usage over other fightings other than beating fairies. That isn't B- worthy when many others have poison jab/gunk shot or iron head for coverage options.
Can I ask why Suicune moved up? I honestly don't find it to be that effective : it completely loses to Sub CM Keldeo which is on 30% of all teams at this point, it loses to Celebi, it's setup fodder for Altaria, Gyarados and Sableye, it doesn't even handle MMetagross or Gliscor that reliably. It receives a lot of competition from Clefable, Sableye and MSlowbro as a CM sweeper and from Slowbro, Starmie, Rotom-W, Quagsire and Alomomola as a bulky Water type. Not to mention that RestTalk is really exploitable and really prevents it from handling offensive threats as well as it wants to. Just doesn't feel like B+ material to me.
Also I'd like to nominate Tyrantrum for B-, I honestly think it's on par with the other offensive threats in B- rank. Banded Head Smash obviously hits like an absolute truck, 2HKOing almost the entire metagame,and if you pair that up with Outrage, the only things that switch into it are Steel types which are generally passive and easy to take advantage of (with the exception of Metagross, but Metagross is a huge problem for a lot of stuff). It's just really good at weakening physical walls to pave the way for sweepers. It isn't exactly a slouch defensively either : it has good physical bulk and nice resists to Flying, Electric and Fire (though the latter doesn't come into play very often). Although it is rather slow, it has just enough speed to outpace most walls which only creep Bisharp, so it's actually pretty threatening to bulky teams. It's also really attractive Pokemon to build around as you can see by the huge amount of cores submitted in the good cores thread that feature it.
It also has a pretty decent Scarf set which is actually quite threatening to offensive teams, though Scarf Head Smash lacks power, it's still quite powerful and Outrage is a nice cleaning tool. Although it receives a lot of competition from Tyranitar, it's significantly more powerful, has Outrage as a secondary STAB and is able to check Torn-T
Also I agree with Magneton moving down to C rank, I really wouldn't ever use it over Magnezone given how important switching into fairies is, it's easier to just find another Talonflame check most of the time.
I also agree with Quagsire moving down simply on the basis that it is on par with Alomomola imo. They are both very passive water types which are taken advantage of by a lot of things, except one can stop sweepers and the other can pass wishes really well. I guess Quag is better as a standalone wall (it beats the electric types Alomomola can't, and the only thing I can think of that beats Quag but not Mola is GK MMeta), but Mola is a better team supporter and better at consistently swicthing into threats, so I feel like they are both on the same level and should share the same rank.
Also I'd like to nominate Tyrantrum for B-, I honestly think it's on par with the other offensive threats in B- rank. Banded Head Smash obviously hits like an absolute truck, 2HKOing almost the entire metagame,and if you pair that up with Outrage, the only things that switch into it are Steel types which are generally passive and easy to take advantage of (with the exception of Metagross, but Metagross is a huge problem for a lot of stuff). It's just really good at weakening physical walls to pave the way for sweepers. It isn't exactly a slouch defensively either : it has good physical bulk and nice resists to Flying, Electric and Fire (though the latter doesn't come into play very often). Although it is rather slow, it has just enough speed to outpace most walls which only creep Bisharp, so it's actually pretty threatening to bulky teams. It's also really attractive Pokemon to build around as you can see by the huge amount of cores submitted in the good cores thread that feature it.
It also has a pretty decent Scarf set which is actually quite threatening to offensive teams, though Scarf Head Smash lacks power, it's still quite powerful and Outrage is a nice cleaning tool. Although it receives a lot of competition from Tyranitar, it's significantly more powerful, has Outrage as a secondary STAB and is able to check Torn-T
Also I agree with Magneton moving down to C rank, I really wouldn't ever use it over Magnezone given how important switching into fairies is, it's easier to just find another Talonflame check most of the time.
I also agree with Quagsire moving down simply on the basis that it is on par with Alomomola imo. They are both very passive water types which are taken advantage of by a lot of things, except one can stop sweepers and the other can pass wishes really well. I guess Quag is better as a standalone wall (it beats the electric types Alomomola can't, and the only thing I can think of that beats Quag but not Mola is GK MMeta), but Mola is a better team supporter and better at consistently swicthing into threats, so I feel like they are both on the same level and should share the same rank.
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