np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

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Darvin said:
Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but what about a "Sleep-Pass" clause? A pokemon is not allowed to have both a sleep-inducing move and baton pass. Combined with a Geomancy ban, that might be sufficient.
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that just might be too specific of a ban for smogon tho

DaSpoofy said:
Calc Lo
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252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 286-339 (101.7 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 257-304 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

either way espeon isn't the best switchin to galvantula I'm just sayin it can beat it sometimes
 
bsu said:
that just might be too specific of a ban for smogon tho



252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 286-339 (101.7 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 257-304 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

either way espeon isn't the best switchin to galvantula I'm just sayin it can beat it sometimes
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Lol you must be trolling.
 
I don't really like complex bans, and frankly don't think its worth it to break the tradition on a mon who would be played the exact same way 99% of the time, asking little in the way of creativity or originality, despite being literally the perfect example of exactly that. Just my two cents, obviously if it were to be suspected I'd have to dig a bit deeper.
 
Went and dug up my replays from the Quiver Dance Smeargle test back in September. The only way Smeargle could stay is if Baton Pass is banned on it. We really don't want to add a playstyle that is completely match up dependent that takes no skill whatsoever. No change in the meta would make SmearglePass not broken, unless every team miraculously started running Dragon Tail.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165894731
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165897008
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165916082
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165926917
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165930900
 
DaSpoofy said:
There will be a lot of taunt leads if smeargle gets back in uu so having a scarf trick can lock your opponent into taunt. Then the following turn you uturn or parting shot and boom you have momentum. Viable imo. Transform on a chandy as it goes for fire blast. Spore is still good as it offers a free switch (sometimes) to gain leverage on the sleeping pokemon that would have been faster than smeargle.

Its viable just a bit situational
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Well situational can't be emphasized enough, given the heavy prediction involved. Same with the scarf-trick set, bear in mind we have megas now so... trick isn't as popular now due to being a free mega turn at times, which honestly can be pulled off by bulkier things that are just as able to gain momentum, e.g. Rotom-C/H.

Yeah he can pull off hazards but... unlike say Swampert/Foretress/Tentacruel/Empoleon etc he doesn't exactly double his role as being a fire check/rapid spinner/phazer/etc. Moreover, he lacks bulk so... he can't exactly keep coming back in and out in the process, as it won't be as easy to heal him or have him stomach a hit.

As for the rest of the sets like the scarf sets you've been touting I've honestly yet to see them in practice that I can't exactly claim viability on the set as it has not been reviewed since Smeargle was largely used Boost + Pass. Honestly if they do opt for a complex ban with baton pass + Smeargle it only makes him a lot more predictable, as either hazard of scarf.
 
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Ok time to finally post my thoughts on this whole "complex ban" of Smeargle + BP.

I feel that while BP is what makes Smeargle broken in the first place, this complex ban is frowned upon according to the Smogon rules. However, I truly believe it will allows Smeargle to shine as one of the premier leads in UU, although hazard leads as a whole just utterly suck in UU as there are so many popular Defoggers such as Crobat, Empoleon, and Mega Aerodactyl along with spinners such as Forretress and Tentacruel so I could see it being ineffective, which could drop it to lower tiers to help them out maybe, or maybe that means it should just stay banned and not worry about it, but idk.
 
bsu said:
espeon o u t s p e e d s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s
obviously bug buzz koes but so does psychic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this point is irrelevant anyways lol so sit down
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Lo galv kos espeon while espeon does around 60percent. When i said calc lo i definitely didnt mean put the lo on the espeon...
Doesnt matter anyway because espeon is only used low ladder.
newfren said:
Why would we bother testing Smeargle + BP - is there some rule that says Smeargle has a right to be in UU? How are we going to nerf Staraptor enough so that it can be in uu. If we test smeargle, test the entire dog, discover that it is awful, and re ban it. Or simply don't re-test it.
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He hit it right there. I feel this complex ban is too much vearing from what is healthy for the tier. When I tell my friend who is playing on a ds if you want to use smaergle in uu, you cant have baton pass. His response would be, "what haha thats so dumb" and it is. I guess a suspect test could work although i dont want to be swept by baton pass smeargle and smeargle constrics team building a little. Taunt lead dont always work because of nuzzle and magic bounce. Its hard to deal with and banning baton pass on smeargle wont make it any better imo.
 
Sleepless said:
)
last match - croak SD's on the obvious Morning Sun and its gg. (or at least heavy mind game whether predict croak to sucker/gunk shot/another sd)
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Espeon set was bulky Stored Power/Dazzling Gleam/Morning Sun/Substitute if I recall correctly so they would've had quite the mindgame to play lol.
 
newfren said:
Why would we bother testing Smeargle + BP - is there some rule that says Smeargle has a right to be in UU? How are we going to nerf Staraptor enough so that it can be in uu. If we test smeargle, test the entire dog, discover that it is awful, and re ban it. Or simply don't re-test it.
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Nerfing other mon and banning one move on Smeargle are different. Smeargle has access to every move, which differentiates it from every other BL mon. The only mon that could come close is Mew. Its not like banning Knock Off on Crawdaunt, or Coil on Zygarde, or even BP on Scoli. Anything that resembles tbis is just a compromise to have the broken mon in UU.

Banning BP +Smeargle would more or less follow an example of Evasion boosting. Its almost impossible to check with one click of a move. Once those boosts are passed, good luck dealing the +2 Gatr, Queen, etc.. Banning Smeargle + BP could allow for greatopportunities in UU while not overly centralizing tram building like when deniss team ran rampant.

Id say lets give it a go and see what happens.
 
Regardless of how many moves Smeargle knows, in the competitive metagame as we know it, there are only two reasons to use it. One is as a hazard lead and the other is a baton passer.

Banning baton pass from Smeargle would be just like banning Swords Dance from Drapion and seeing if it would be broken in NU.

Although…does anyone think an offensive Smeargle could be viable? Something like Spore + Belly Drum+ Extremespeed + Earthquake with a life orb, or Spore + Shell Smash + Boomburst + Blue Flare with a life orb seems usable to me. From doing the calcs, both sets easily OHKO Porygon-Z with its boosted STABs, so it’s not weak either. I would definitely be interested in trying it out if Baton Pass Smeargle is banned.
 
ManOfMany said:
Although…does anyone think an offensive Smeargle could be viable?
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No.

+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 145-172 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Smeargle: 148-175 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Smeargle Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
244+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Smeargle: 321-378 (102.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course you could run specific coverage to beat those mons (this is Smeargle, after all) but then I'll just grab something else out of A-rank to beat you. When I can just randomly grab pokemon out of the top of the viability rankings and they effortlessly counter your set, your set probably isn't any good. Getting a sleep-inducing move doesn't make up for these terrible stats.
 
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Darvin said:
No.

+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 145-172 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Smeargle: 148-175 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Smeargle Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
244+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Smeargle: 321-378 (102.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course you could run specific coverage to beat those mons (this is Smeargle, after all) but then I'll just grab something else out of A-rank to beat you. When I can just randomly grab pokemon out of the top of the viability rankings and they effortlessly counter your set, your set probably isn't any good. Getting a sleep-inducing move doesn't make up for these terrible stats.
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You forgot to take life orb into account.

Anyway, I actually think that grass-type coverage could be the best for bellydrum smeargle, as it easily beats rock types and bulky waters. As well as doing this:
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 377-445 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not everyone runs defensive pokemon anyway, and Smeargle easily takes care of a lot of semi-bulky offensive threats.
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 316-372 (97.2 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 347-409 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 289-341 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pair it with Magneton, who happens to be very underrated, and you have an impressive duo.

Now about to Boomburst Smeargle, I probably overrated it, but if you remove priority users it could still be very dangerous:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Smeargle Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Hydreigon: 308-363 (94.7 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

No coverage move is really notably better than another. Blue Flare takes care of most steel types, thunder gets mega aerodactyl, seed flare destroys rocks, etc. It’s not different from most sweepers, really- there will always be hard counters. That’s why you have teammates.

And you have to remember, Smeargle may not always sweep, but it is still incapacitating one threat with Spore (or Dark Void).
 
ManOfMany said:
You forgot to take life orb into account.

Anyway, I actually think that grass-type coverage could be the best for bellydrum smeargle, as it easily beats rock types and bulky waters. As well as doing this:
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 377-445 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not everyone runs defensive pokemon anyway, and Smeargle easily takes care of a lot of semi-bulky offensive threats.
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 316-372 (97.2 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 347-409 (104.8 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 289-341 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pair it with Magneton, who happens to be very underrated, and you have an impressive duo.

Now about to Boomburst Smeargle, I probably overrated it, but if you remove priority users it could still be very dangerous:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Smeargle Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Hydreigon: 308-363 (94.7 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

No coverage move is really notably better than another. Blue Flare takes care of most steel types, thunder gets mega aerodactyl, seed flare destroys rocks, etc. It’s not different from most sweepers, really- there will always be hard counters. That’s why you have teammates.

And you have to remember, Smeargle may not always sweep, but it is still incapacitating one threat with Spore (or Dark Void).
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Running Life Orb will make you absolute deadweight vs offense, as in everything will outspeed and KO you. I don't want to be the one to discourage innovation, but when a mon is so obviously suited better to support roles, trying to make it an offensive threat ends up in you resulting with a gimmick that might work vs some lower ladder team but will leave you playing 5v6 vs any competent player. I really really don't want to come off harsh, but these sets are not worth the time you're putting in to discuss them because quite simply, they're dreadful. Smeargle should stick to support roles, generally as a hazards lead making use of its best traits, namely any support move it needs and access to reliable sleep.

My personal view is that there shouldn't be any restriction on individual pokemon as has been discussed thus far in this thread such as banning BP+Smeargle, it sets a frankly horrible precedent and threads like these will start to get filled with stupid shit like free Togekiss but ban its Air Slash and free Klefki but no Prankster, and they'll all use the precedent as a means of justifying it.

Tl;dr stop with offensive Smeargle, if Smeargle is to be tested test it fully, not with some restriction in mind cos precedent will get out of hand.
 
Sam said:
Hi if we're gonna talk about Smeargle lets keep the discussion to legitimate sets
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I think the problem thus far is finding those legitimate sets outside for BP or hazards/trick scarf. He may have all the moves but without the typing/stats he has difficulty pulling off any other role. It is more difficult to conceive that the other sets would really be able to make a splash in UU, while it would be likely usable in the lower tiers it does defeat the point of trying to improve the UU tier not necessarily RU/NU/PU.

I pretty much agree with Freeroamer in simply testing it fully since the point of the test should be introducing the mon with UU in mind, not the hopes of contributing to the lower tiers which wouldn't be represented by a suspect test in a different tier/metagame.
 
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The only other gimmicky, but nasty set-up set smeargle could use is a LV 1 FEARgle set (Trick room, spore, endeavour, dragon rage). Gimmicky, but certainly a pain to deal with outside of something like froslass.
 
Machi said:
I think the problem thus far is finding those legitimate sets outside for BP or hazards/trick scarf. He may have all the moves but without the typing/stats he has difficulty pulling off any other role. It is more difficult to conceive that the other sets would really be able to make a splash in UU, while it would be likely usable in the lower tiers it does defeat the point of trying to improve the UU tier not necessarily RU/NU/PU.

I pretty much agree with Freeroamer in simply testing it fully since the point of the test should be introducing the mon with UU in mind, not the hopes of contributing to the lower tiers which wouldn't be represented by a suspect test in a different tier/metagame.
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If that's the case, then I'd have to say that testing Smeargle at all is a waste of time. The metagame hasn't changed enough for SmearglePass to be anything remotely unbroken. Looking at the list of BL Pokemon, if we're looking to reintroduce anything (and not suspect Gatr, which I'm not sure I agree with), then Hawlucha and perhaps Victini seem like a prime candidates. The tier is getting more and more equipped for Fighting-spam, though Fighting/Flying STAB is still as scary a combination as ever, and we've two new Pokemon to handle Victini in Salamence and Tyrantrum, both of whom can use Choice-locked Victini as set-up fodder. I'd rather see either of those Pokemon introduced before we mess around with a totally unnecessary complex ban.
 
Lord of Bays Tini retest sounds interesting, but Tyrantrum and Salamence are almost cleanly 2Hko by LO Psychic from MixTini with barely any investment...

4 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 153-181 (38.9 - 46%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 195-230 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So, they cant switch in safely which just adds another 2 mons to the list of checks.
 
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Patrick1088 said:
Lord of Bays Tini retest sounds interesting, but Tyrantrum and Salamence are almost cleanly 2Hko by LO Psychic from MixTini with barely any investment...

4 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 153-181 (38.9 - 46%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 195-230 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So, they cant switch in safely which just adds another 2 mons to the list of checks.
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Tini does get glaciate which would be much better for coverage on mix tini since mix tini tends to run dual physical STAB and also OHKOs mence after hazards soooooo yeah even less of a check lol. Tini and hawlucha are still a bit too much for us Imo we should just test gatr it is ridiculous in this tier I know people are against this but damn it is just such a damn monster. Honestly there is really no BL mons that are UU worthy most if not all are still pretty OP or at least the meta has not changed enough since they were previously determined broken.
 
I feel like Glaciate opens up other Pokemon to more effectively check Victini if it's accounting for Salamence and Tyrantrum. Dual physical STAB + Glaciate leaves you with the decision between Bolt Strike, Energy Ball, Thunder, Psychic, and U-turn, All of which leave Victini's coverage open. If you opt for U-turn for momentum, suddenly Suicune uses you as set-up fodder. If you opt to cover Suicune with Thunder or Bolt Strike, now Swampert threatens you out. Might not be terribly efficient to run Mega Swampert's Rain Dance set given you could get hit by Glaciate, but that won't hurt much and he's still forced out. Pretty much anything besides Thunder or Psychic leaves you vulnerable to Arcanine, but if you do run Psychic (doubling up on coverage) Houndoom uses you as set-up fodder, with Victini's best option being Glaciate spam, which isn't safe given Houndoom can just KO with Dark Pulse and come back later.

I'm not saying Victini isn't dangerous or that V-create isn't obnoxious or that I want it back in the tier (god knows I was happy when it left), but new blood in the tier has made it less kind to Victini. Patrick1088, you make a good point in that they're really only two new checks, but I think they're a tipping point in forcing Victini's hand in terms of coverage and what it can safely get away with now.

Shout outs to Thisbemyalt for "Imo we should just test gatr it is ridiculous in this tier I know people are against this but damn it is just such a damn monster." Haven't seen an argument so tightly sealed since "Are SMOGON ruining the METAGAME?"
 
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